Re: [Chrysler300] more fuel

["Roger Schaaf" <obiwan10@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Very informative enlightening missive.  However buried in it remains the
fact that this product is still make work(read government handout) costing
USA taxpayers 100's of millions of dollars for welfare for yet another class
of citizen.

As was pointed out there is 1.50 cents(1.00 from the feds and 50 cents from
that state) of government payout for each gallon of this product that at the
time sold for 1.58.  Left on its own merits this product cannot be produced
and sold in an economically viable manner, not to mention the extreme costs
to the environment to produce and distribute it.Guess who pays this money
and guess who gets it.

The politics(read corn state vote buyers and transfer of wealth from all
other states to this group of states) of this subsidy smells to high heaven
and I say again no wonder the Iraqi's are concerned about the form of
government we are espousing for them.

Roger Schaaf
300 B Calif
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <smopar@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Bob Merritt" <rcmerritt@xxxxxxxxxx>; <Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] more fuel


>
> > "Ethanol does not harm rubber"  I would take issue with this statement
since I have discussed this with some engineers in the fuel systems labs
from the auto industry, and they still dislike ethanol in gasoline because
it does break down elastomers (rubber), even though materials now are
better.  Years ago, they even advised against using fuel with ethanol in it
because it shortened the life of elastomers.  Now they "permit" it.  I don't
know if carb rebuilding kits for older carbs contain ethanol resistant
materials in the diaphragms/accel pumps?  It is true, however, that premium
grades of gasoline may still continue to use ethanol even in the absence of
a mandate since it does provide enhanced octane and is cheap (because of
subsidies).
> Steve Albu
> > From: "Bob Merritt" <rcmerritt@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > Date: 2004/05/31 Mon AM 07:34:20 EDT
> > To: <Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: [Chrysler300] more fuel
> >
> > Forwarding this from George Riehl:
> >
> >   With the discussion lately about gasolone with various additives at
the
> > gas stations, I have this to comment.
> >   In the early 80s I was Plant and Equipment manager for a gasoline
> > convenience store company. We had 28 stations in the Ann Arbor/Detroit
> > areas. All of our gasoline had ethanol, GULF, SUNOCO, SHELL and TOTAL.
> > Federal law allowed 10% ethanol as an additive. In other words, every
110
> > gallons of product had 10 (aprox) gallons of ethanol. As many of you can
> > remember, the pumps had a notice that the gasoline had "10% alcohol".
then a
> > few years later, the notice was no longer required. Even in todays
gasoline,
> > ethanol is present of at least 10%. Some brands are less.
> >   At the time, my company paid $1.58 for a gallon of ethanol. Gasoline
at
> > the bulk plants was $.87 per gallon. The company sent a form to the
Federal
> > government and got a refund of $1.00 per ethanol gallon. The State
refunded
> > $.50. So, a gallon of ethanol cost the company $.08. When we picked up
900
> > gallons of ethanol first with our tank trucks, we then added 9,000
gallons
> > of gas. Reason? The gas then mixed with the ethanol during loading. The
gas
> > loaded was 86 octane, not 87 octane.
> >   Now you wonder? Why? Well, ethanol introduced to gas raises the octane
> > rating. Lower octane gas burns at a faster rate, ethanol retards the
burn.
> > So, this means that the small amount of ethanol actually raises the
octane
> > rating to the next higher octane. "Premium" gas burns at a slower rate
than
> > the lower brand of gas. Low octane burns "fast" causing "knock" in the
> > engine. "Premium" burns at a slower rate over a longer time frame. That
is
> > why higher compression engines need the "premium". Because it starts to
burn
> > at a slower rate but burns for a longer period of time. More energy is
> > produced, more "push". That is why ignition timing has to be changed
when
> > going to Premium from Regular, and vice versa.
> >   Ethanol enhanced fuels also "burn" cooler than 100% gas. Ever notice
> > alcohol burning dragsters exhaust at the drag strips? Blue flames that
> > extend much further from the headders show that the "burn" rate is much
> > slower. But more ethanol is used than gas would be used.
> >   Ethanol does not harm rubber, methanol does, which is a petroleum
product
> > and very corrosive. Fuel manufactureres tried methanol a few years ago
as an
> > additive, but with the new cars using fuel injectors, the injectors
"froze"
> > because methanol has no lubricant in it like ethanol (a corn product).
> >   One disadvantage of ethanol, when sitting in a gas tank for a few
months,
> > the ethanol drops out of the gas and goes to the bottom of the tank.
When
> > starting a car that has been sitting for a long period of time, you will
be
> > pulling pure ethanol to the pump and carb. Ethanol is "heavier" than
> > gasoline. Vice versa like oil on water. Sometimes the car will not run
> > untill you add more "new" gas to the tank, and in doing so, the gas and
> > ethanol will remix.
> >   People that add "fuel line" additives to their tank is a waste. You
are
> > adding more ethanol and another solvent. Also, winter gas has more
ethanol
> > than summer gas so that water condensation will be absorbed by the
ethanol
> > and fuel lines will not freeze.
> >   A car in long storage with ethanol, the rear end of the car should be
> > shaken from side to side to remix the ethanol with the gas in the tank
for a
> > better "start".
> >   MTBE additives do attack the fuel pump diaphram. "New old stock" pumps
> > that one would buy will not last long. All pump manufacturers and
rebuilders
> > use a new style diaphram that is not affected by MTBE. My rebuilder uses
the
> > new diaphram material exclusivly.
> >   Now, I wonder if the "new" additive will be harmful to fuel pumps
since
> > MTBE is being eliminated. But word is, the mileage per gallon will be
less
> > with the "new" additive. One just can't win!  And the price will be
higher!
> >   Another point to make, when filling your tank and you notice a
"alcohol"
> > odor, then the supplier has more than 10% ethanol in his gas, maybe as
much
> > at 20%. Ethanol is cheaper than a gallon of gas....hence more profit to
the
> > station. Your car will run, but with lower performance, ever happen to
you?
> > Has to me when traveling on the road looking for "cheaper" gas at some
of
> > the off brand stations. Best to deal with well known gas stations.
> >    George Riehl
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To send a message to this group, send an email to:
> > Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> To send a message to this group, send an email to:
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>
> For list server instructions, go to
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