RE: [Chrysler300] Hiddin VIN's

[Nancy Kramer <nekramer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hello Lee,

I think you nailed it on this discussion.  The more cars that are saved the 
better.

Regards,

Nancy Kramer
Webmaster http://www.americandreamcars.com
Free Color Picture Ads for Collector Cars
One of the Ten Best Places To Buy or Sell a Collector Car on the Web


At 12:22 AM 4/7/2006, Lee Meyer wrote:

>Wow! I have been out of town picking up another old fin car for a couple
>days and what a bunch of hubbub about rebodying and secret vins and
>such.
>Here are a couple thoughts-factory's don't intend to hide vin numbers on
>cars, that is a bunch of crap. It just happens that the various areas
>that get vin stamped or sequential numbers are not always in plain
>sight. Mostly they are in locations that are convenient for the stamp
>machine on the assy line. The whole top secret thing is B.S. most
>restorers or people who have done extensive restos know where the
>numbers are just from experience. Many shop and or service manuals tell
>you where the numbers are located. Not too tough to figure out. Keeping
>the locations secret to newbies or amateurs or anyone is ridiculous. If
>anything the locations should be well known to all so everyone will be
>better informed about authenticating a car they might find or own.
>Now for the news that will freak everyone out. A clever person can fake
>vin stamps on a body or make new tags without too much hassle. An
>average dishonest person probably wouldn't go through all the trouble,
>but a less common super creep could do so pretty easily if motivated
>enough. It is not rocket science, just a little sheet metal work. I can
>buy a fake rolex watch that looks perfect and works better than the
>original for less than a hundred bucks, probably a tougher
>accomplishment I would think.
>   About the rebody thing, it has been done a lot, sometimes not very
>well, sometimes no one will ever know. To me, rebody and extensive
>restoration are very close partners. Both are essentially the same, one
>has more factory seams and welds. When fixing a very rotten car, new
>quarters, floors, trunk floors, frame patches here and there, cowl
>replacement or major restructuring, etc the car has pretty much been
>rebodied don't you think? And what do you do when the super secret
>numbers rust away like on those Fs and Gs? You east coasters know what I
>am talking about. Then you have a fixed rust bucket, a nice clean donor
>shell starts to look pretty good when you think about it. After all, the
>shell is just that, a shell until all the 300 stuff is assembled onto
>it.
>  This has become more of an issue as the cars have become more valuable
>financially. The historic and sentimental value of the 300s and the
>musclecars has pretty much always been there, but now with dollar values
>up high lots of rough cars that were considered parts cars are now
>savable because their dollar value exceeds the cost of the extensive
>restoration. I do think it is good to save more cars, I still get kinda
>sad when I see a really rough cool car and always see ways of restoring
>it. I am a sucker for a real hard case. I once owned a very tough 300F
>coupe that was nothing but a rough body tub with a vin tag. Not one
>single 300 part on it, nada. Stripped clean as a whistle. I just
>happened to have every 300 part it was missing so it was a good fit for
>my stuation. Is that any different than a rebody? Rather than replacing
>the body tub shared by many models EVERY SINGLE 300 SPECIFIC PART had to
>be replaced. Including all of the body panels other than the floor, roof
>and cowl. Here is that word again-extensive restoration.
>   I think it is important to save as many as possible. Some may not be
>perfect or have rosy history's but they will still be cool cars and it
>will be nice to see them back on the road.
>  To the big collectors these less than perfect cars will not matter one
>bit. The big dollar cars will still be, as they always have been those
>that are original unrestored cars, cars with all original panels, low
>miles cars and cars with history and documentation. Documentation is the
>big one these days. Example: a 1971 hemi dodge challenger is worth
>$500,000 or so in restored condition with a build sheet and a fender
>tag. Same exact car without tag and sheet is worth half that and will be
>a much tougher sell.
>One more thing to consider-Chrysler was the king of screw ups. It is not
>that uncommon to have vin#s stamped wrong, misprinted or even missing
>sometimes. I have owned cars with all of these issues. Just the way it
>is.
>Put that in your pipe and smoke it!
>Lee in San Diego
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>On Behalf Of Rich Barber
>Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 2:26 PM
>To: 'John Mc Adams'; Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [Chrysler300] Hiddin VIN's
>
>John McAdams:
>
>I agree that it would be inappropriate to respond to the server.  I'm
>more
>curious as to when the hidden VIN's started appearing than where the
>hidden
>VIN's may be on my 1955. But, I remain curious about the many details of
>my
>car and believe that information should be available to buyers to help
>achieve caveat emptor.
>
>One member responded with the information that the last four digits of
>the
>original engine S/N on '56 300-B's was stamped on the right front frame
>horn.  That data could confirm that part of the frame was original.
>John
>Hertog's knowledge of hidden VIN locations is limited to the 1960-62
>models.
>
>I Googled "hidden VIN" and got a lot of hits, mostly about using a VIN
>search to find hidden defects.  One Oregon DMV form indicated an
>inspecting
>officer might check the hidden VIN's when registering a car, so law
>enforcement must have a secret code book.  I watched the CA DMV inspect
>my
>vehicles when I brought them into CA, but they mostly focused on the
>emission control systems.  That did not take too long on my C-300.
>
>For a somewhat generic location guide see:
>
>http://www.moparts.com/Tech/Archive/misc/24.html
>
>Text from another site (Pidgin English not edited):
>
>Where can I find my car VIN number?
>
>As the number of theft growing, manufacturer's put more and more VIN
>number
>stickers and engravement to many parts of the vehicle. With the new
>vehicle
>tracking sytem such as Lo Jack, police can track a stolen vehicle within
>hours, giving the thief no time to remove all the VIN number stickers
>that
>are in many places and hidden somewhere on the car parts.
>
>The VIN number can be found by looking at the dashboard on the driver
>side
>of the vehicle. If the VIN# cannot be found, open the driver side door
>and
>look at the door post (where the door latches when it is closed).
>
>Common locations of the vehicle identification number (VIN) vary but the
>following are places to look:
>
>Firewall of the vehicle
>Left hand inner wheel arch
>Steering column
>Radiator Support Bracket
>Dash by windshield
>Drivers door or post on passenger side
>Guarantee & Maintenance Book
>Vehicle documents
>Machined Pad on front of engine
>Component parts as listed above -eg- engine, frame, etc.
>
>As regards 1955 Chrysler 300 convertibles, they must exist.
>
>See ebay 7021110166
>
>C-300'ly,
>Rich Barber
>Brentwood, CA
>1955 C-300 3N551098, engine: 3NE551198
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>On
>Behalf Of John Mc Adams
>Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 10:23 AM
>To: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; 'Rich Barber'
>Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] Hiddin VIN's
>
>Rich and all:
>
>As our esteemed Mr. Hertog so eloquently explained, the location of the
>Hidden, or Secret Numbers should remain a secret to make it more
>difficult
>for unscrupulous people to counterfeit a real letter car.
>
>Please, let us try to uphold the dignity and decorum of the 300 Club
>Intl.
>and LEAVE THESE NUMBER LOCATIONS SECRET for the very reason that the
>factory
>deemed it necessary to add them in secret locations in the first place.
>
>If you absolutely MUST know all the secrets in the World, send an
>inquiry
>directly to Mr. John Hertog.
>
>........................................................................
>....
> >For common sense reasons, we all prefer not to publish the location of
>all<
> >"secret numbers", as we affectionately refer to them. No need giving<
> >dishonest people more information than they already may have. This<
> >information is available to any Club member on a private basis. <
>
> >Please do not publish this information on this listserver. All
>listserver<
> >e-mails are viewable by the general public, in various ways. Thanks
>for<
> >your cooperation. <
>
> >John Hertog<
>........................................................................
>....
>
>Again, as John Hertog said, "THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION",
>
>John Mc Adams
>(In SoCal)
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>On
>Behalf Of Rich Barber
>Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 9:22 AM
>To: 'Gary Barker'; john_nowosacki@xxxxxxxxxxx
>Cc: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [Chrysler300] Hiddin VIN's
>
>Does anyone know when the practice of hidden VIN's began?  And, if used
>in
>1955, where these numbers might be found?
>I recall this used to be a big secret used by law enforcement to track
>and
>recovered stolen and chopped cars but believe it may not have begun
>until
>the '60's.
>
>C-300'ly,
>Rich Barber
>Brentwood, CA
>1955 C-300 3N551198
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>On
>Behalf Of Gary Barker
>Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 12:26 AM
>To: john_nowosacki@xxxxxxxxxxx
>Cc: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] Controversy
>
>Many cars have I.D.numbers stamped in hidden places.  Sometimes on the
>radiator support,  under weather strips   behind accessories ,  on
>brackets and also on hidden places on there frames.    Gary Barker
>
>john_nowosacki@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>
> >Wow, I didn't know unibody cars had a stamping.  Why a separate piece
>of
>metal spot welded to a piece of metal that already was stamped?
> >Where is this stamp usually located?  I'd like to try and find it on my
>car.
> >If it is down low, like underneath a door sill plate or something like
>that, then for the purposes of our discussion it is long-gone due to the
>rust that is the whole reason for wanting to re-body in the first place.
> >John
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>On
>Behalf Of Jess Miklas
> >Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 1:31 PM
> >To: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Subject: [Chrysler300] Controversy
> >
> >I am enjoying this discussion with an open mind!
> >
> >May I go one step further for my own satisfaction...
> >
> >Let's remember that the replacement unibody "cabin" (as it has been
>referrred to) also has its  own stamped identifying numbers that
>correspond
>to the data plate/microfilm. Are we then talking about cutting out those
>numbers as well and welding them into the "new" body? If you don't, then
>you
>will have a finished car that sports two different sets of identifying
>numbers.
> >
> >What about the case of the 300 C frame now? The owner saved the VIN tag
>but
>appearantly did not save the unibody stamped numbers. Such as then,
>there
>can NEVER BE a totally matching number body on that 300C frame.
> >
> >Sorry to add to the flames but I really would like get to the bottom of
>this once and for all... although I believe in the past that Gil
>Cunningham
>eloquently and correctly put the matter to bed.
> >
> >Thanks
> >
> >Jeff Miklas
>
>
>
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