Re: [Chrysler300] Thermodynamics of a Ram

[Keith Boonstra <kboonstra@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi Mike,

The folks writing here are far more erudite and experienced than I on 
this whole subject area, so I wonder if I'm missing something to think 
the direct answer to your question is a little less complicated. If your 
rebuilder changed the pistons in order to lower the compression, the 
tops of those new pistons must necessarily ride lower in the cylinder.

I wonder if you could simply measure the distance from the top of a 
spark plug hole down to the top of the piston at TDC and BDC. You can 
then ask for one of us to do the same on a known-to-be-stock H engine. 
If your measurements are greater, your pistons must have been changed. 
If the measurements match, your compression should too.

N'est-ce pa?

Keith Boonstra

-
On 11/10/2012 10:14 AM, Michael Moore wrote:
>
> Thanks Carl,
> As a matter of interest, the reason I asked the question initially was 
> to get an idea as to whether my rebuilder 20 years ago, concerned 
> about emissions control and loss of premium gasoline, as he prepared 
> my 300H for a move to California, had installed low compression pistons.
>
> He had made other mods supporting that goal. I was just looking for a 
> general idea of what compression readings stock (driver) 300H's ought 
> to be so I could compare mine and make a judgement about pistons.
> Thanks again, Mike
>
> On Nov 10, 2012, at 6:54 AM, Carlton Schroeder wrote:
>
> Hello,
> This subject appears to be another example of a question being more
> complicated than it might first seem. Just on the matter of an engines
> compression ratio I thought (and still do) it is just a volume ratio 
> of the
> sum of the cylinder volume the piston moves through + the combustion 
> chamber
> volume divided by the combustion chamber volume. With odd shaped 
> combustion
> chambers, valve tops, the spark plug, head gaskets, and non-flat 
> piston tops
> the exact volume calculations would be complicated. I guess though if you
> really wanted to determine a precise CR you could use oil and fill the
> volumes (piston at the bottom and piston at the top) and determine the CR
> from that data. The valves would have to be closed and to be really 
> precise
> you would have to account for that little additional volume in the spark
> plug core.
> For another method if the piston was at the bottom and you could make a
> pressure and temperature reading then and could also measure the pressure
> and temperature in the combustion chamber at the end of the compression
> stroke then from gas laws you should be able to calculate the CR.
> I hope this understanding is consistent with the rest of the posts 
> I've been
> reading.
> Carlton Schroeder
> Eagle River, WI
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> <mailto:Chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com> 
> [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> <mailto:Chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com>] On
> Behalf Of RICK AND DEBBIE CLAPHAM
> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 7:33 AM
> To: larry@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:larry%40pwbsfo.com>; tfm@xxxxxxxxxxxx 
> <mailto:tfm%40zippynet.com>; mmoore8425@xxxxxxx 
> <mailto:mmoore8425%40aol.com>;
> flatheadeng@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:flatheadeng%40comcast.net>; Rich 
> Barber; mgoodknight@xxxxxxxx <mailto:mgoodknight%40juno.com>
> Cc: chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] Thermodynamics of a Ram
>
> Larry, I have been where you are at many times self-inflicted and with
> customer's choice. A camshaft change will cure the problem. Actually
> Hemispherical combustion chambers can withstand higher dynamic compression
> ratios. The chart / tool you have posted will help. I also know finding a
> 392 cam is now difficult. Rick
>
> To: rixpac@xxxxxxx <mailto:rixpac%40msn.com>; tfm@xxxxxxxxxxxx 
> <mailto:tfm%40zippynet.com>; mmoore8425@xxxxxxx 
> <mailto:mmoore8425%40aol.com>;
> flatheadeng@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:flatheadeng%40comcast.net>; 
> c300@xxxxxxx <mailto:c300%40ez2.net>; mgoodknight@xxxxxxxx 
> <mailto:mgoodknight%40juno.com>
> CC: chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com>
> From: larry@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:larry%40pwbsfo.com>
> Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 21:55:26 -0600
> Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] Thermodynamics of a Ram
>
> Sorry This has nothing to do about the ram effect but I thought I would
> chime in anyway
>
> The way I understand it is that the 10 to 1 compression is the static
> compression ratio which is what you would get when the piston travels from
> the bottom of the stroke to the top of the stroke with the valves being
> closed at all times
>
> And to get the real compression ratio or dynamic compression ratio all the
> figures as far as stroke, bore, head gasket thickness ect. Would be 
> the same
> for both Accept putting in the degrees ABDC that you have the intake valve
> close
>
> Below is a link that will give you both ratios if you have all the numbers
> to put in
>
> http://kb-silvolite.com/calc.php?action=comp
>
> 300D 392
>
> I used this when I had my engine rebuilt & had the cam designed so we 
> would
> come up with a cam that should be good for the crappy gas we have out here
> in CA especially in the Bay Area
>
> I ended up with a static of 9.1 & a dynamic of 7.6 which supposedly it
> perfect for 91 octane
>
> I think this works for most engines except hemis from the fifties
>
> After doing all this it still pings under load even by controlling the 
> total
> spark advance to 24 degrees
>
> The only thing that makes it happy is 96 octane at the race track which
> costs about $7.00 a gallon
>
> If anyone has had this issue of pinging with a 392 and has any solutions I
> would like to hear about it
>
> Thank you
>
> Larry Jabin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> <mailto:Chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com> 
> [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> <mailto:Chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com>] On
> Behalf Of RICK AND DEBBIE CLAPHAM
> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 7:05 PM
> To: tfm@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:tfm%40zippynet.com>; mmoore8425@xxxxxxx 
> <mailto:mmoore8425%40aol.com>; flatheadeng@xxxxxxxxxxx 
> <mailto:flatheadeng%40comcast.net>; Rich
> Barber; mgoodknight@xxxxxxxx <mailto:mgoodknight%40juno.com>
> Cc: chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] Thermodynamics of a Ram
>
> These explanations are quite adequate on the RAM EFFECT. The camshaft 
> design
> explanation still has me confused. The short ram is basically a 361 
> camshaft
> with 4 degree retard. I read my fathers papers on cam design and realize
> Chrysler had the best labs of any manufactures of the auto industry. They
> did know what the wanted and they built it. The bad news is the 
> compression
> has not been effectively used until direct injection. I know we think we
> have 10 to 1 compression ratio engines we just do not. The valves open and
> close at specific timing and if you figure it out we really never use the
> rated compression ratio, Less than half the rated. Here in Colorado we can
> drive to the top of Pikes Peak on regular gasoline. Being your effective
> compression ratio is effected by altitude. at 5000 foot above sea 
> level you
> lost 20% of the sea level atmosphere. Actually lowering the efective
> compression ratio.
>
> CC: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com>
> To: mmoore8425@xxxxxxx <mailto:mmoore8425%40aol.com>; 
> flatheadeng@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:flatheadeng%40comcast.net>; 
> c300@xxxxxxx <mailto:c300%40ez2.net>;
> mgoodknight@xxxxxxxx <mailto:mgoodknight%40juno.com>
> From: tfm@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:tfm%40zippynet.com>
> Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 20:20:05 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] Thermodynamics of a Ram
>
> Here's a link to our web site where you'll find the operational theory
> behind cross ram induction. Cam timing is *critical* to getting the most
> optimal performance from this setup.....
>
> http://www.chrysler300club.com/uniq/allaboutrams/ramtheory.htm
>
> TFM
>
> Thomas F. Miller
> tfm@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:tfm%40zippynet.com>
>
> '57 300C
> '70 440+6 'Cuda
>
> >>> "Flathead Engineering" <flatheadeng@xxxxxxxxxxx 
> <mailto:flatheadeng%40comcast.net>> 11/9/2012 6:33 PM
> >>>>>>
>
> My understanding of the ram effect based on fluid dynamics is the when a
> traveling wave of pressure meets a boundry condition, closed valve, the
> velocity goes to zero and the pressure doubles. The velocity of the
> traveling wave and the frequency depend on the geometry of the passage and
> the RPM of the engine. The Chrysler ram is long thus tuned to a lower
> frequency to complement the large displacement of the engine which turns a
> relatively low RPM compared with a race engine. Understanding this you can
> see why the wrong camshaft will destroy the ram effect and make for a poor
> performing engine. I imagine Chrysler spent a large sum to optimise 
> the cam
> profile and I doubt if some race engine builder can improve on it. 
> More than
> likely they will not understand the principles and put in an inappropriate
> cam that works great on a dual plane manifold but is totaly wrong for the
> ram effect.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rich Barber
> To: 'Michael Moore' ; mgoodknight@xxxxxxxx <mailto:mgoodknight%40juno.com>
> Cc: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 3:15 PM
> Subject: [Chrysler300] Thermodynamics of a Ram
>
> Warning: There will be a quiz at the end of this mini-lecture. If 
> you're not
> interested in engine performance and the ram induction effect, tune 
> out now.
>
> If the cam allowed some valve opening before TDC on the compression 
> stroke,
> the effective compression could be lower. That would be a real power 
> robber,
> methinks.
>
> Simply speaking, a 4-stroke cycle engine acts as an air compressor while
> being spun by the starter. The compression pressure is measured as the 
> peak
> pressure in the cylinder over a small number of strokes-as PSIG 
> (Pounds per
> square inch-gauge). The Shrader valve in the peak pressure indicator 
> acts as
> a check valve to hold the peak pressure on the gauge until released.
> Ideally, the peak pressure can be estimated by the cylinder's compression
> ratio. The laws of physics mandate use of absolute units when dealing with
> the gas laws, therefore we must use pressures expressed in PSIA 
> (pounds per
> square inch-absolute). PSIA=PSIG plus atmospheric pressure. Differential
> pressures are expressed as PSI.
>
> Examples:
>
> Sea Level Atmospheric Peak Peak
>
> Elevation Pressure Compression Pressure Pressure
>
> Feet PSIA Ratio :1 PSIA
> PSIG Engine & Location
>
> 16 14.69 9.6 141.02
> 126 (My ram K engine at Newark, CA)
>
> 16 14.69 8.5 124.87
> 110 (My C-300 hemi at Newark, CA)
>
> 5,280 11.68 9.6 112.13
> 100 (My ram K engine on the first step of State Capitol Building in
> Denver)
>
> 16 17.69 9.6 169.82
> 155 (My ram K engine at Newark with a 3 psi boost from ram induction)
>
> So the ideal peak pressure depends on elevation and cylinder compression
> ratio. Using the same pressure measuring device and techniques in an 
> engine
> at operating temperature and at similar cranking speeds should provide 
> valid
> cylinder-to-cylinder comparisons. Lower peak pressure indicates air
> leakage-either/or past the rings, valves, gaskets, pig iron. Adjusting the
> valves on a solid-tappet engine before the test makes sense-although 
> having
> them buried below 30" long ram induction intake manifolds makes that a
> challenging job.
>
> BTW, the ram effect is designed to increase the apparent atmospheric
> pressure at the intake valve while it is open. The only reference I found
> indicated the ram effect could amount to as much as 3 psi at resonant 
> speed.
> As our engines are limited by the amount of air they can inhale (free air
> capacity), a 3 psi boost at the inlet could theoretically increase the
> engine's power by 20% at sea level. Chrysler only claimed 8.3% (390 HP vs.
> 360 for a non-ram K). This suggests a 1.2 psi ram effect. Anyone heard or
> measured anything different?
>
> C-300K'ly
>
> Rich Barber
>
> Brentwood, CA (Elevation at my home here in the Bay Area is about 120')
>
> Ps: Quiz: What is the theoretical peak compression pressure of a 
> cylinder of
> a C-300 hemi engine parked outside the state capitol building at Denver?
> (Just before the park police tow the car and arrest the mechanic) Answer:
> Scroll down to under Marshall's signature.
>
> rb
>
> From: Michael Moore [mailto:mmoore8425@xxxxxxx 
> <mailto:mmoore8425%40aol.com>]
> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 5:01 AM
> To: mgoodknight@xxxxxxxx <mailto:mgoodknight%40juno.com>
> Cc: c300@xxxxxxx <mailto:c300%40ez2.net>; Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> <mailto:Chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] Compression pressure , 300H
>
> Marshall,
>
> I have been gradually getting my 300H, which I have owned since 1964, back
> into a more drivable condition. Some of the major problems which kept me
> from driving it much (brakes, steering) are resolved, but the engine 
> issues,
> while better, are still with me. In general, it has suffered from a 
> lack of
> power dating back to the engine rebuild I had done many years ago. The
> rebuilder, a highly respected race engine builder, misunderstood 
> California
> (where I was moving to) requirements. He also knew high test was going 
> away.
> Among the mods he made was to lower the compression with a custom Barnes
> cam, rejet the carbs with richer needles and install a smog valve.
> The car had power, but ran so rich your eyes burned. The carbs were 
> rebuilt
> and rejetted to stock needles and it began to run better. I know it still
> does not run as strongly though as it did even in the 90's.
>
> I obtained a correct 300H camshaft from a member and have a new set of
> lifters. My plan is to replace the camshaft with the stock 300H camshaft.
>
> Recently though, I have been wondering if the rebuilder may have installed
> lower compression pistons. If so, now would be the time to replace the
> pistons also.
>
> I also don't fully appreciate how the custom camshaft lowered the
> compression ratio other than he adjusted the overlap.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Moore
>
> Morgan Hill, California
>
> 300H
>
> On Nov 9, 2012, at 3:44 AM, mgoodknight@xxxxxxxx 
> <mailto:mgoodknight%40juno.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks for your research Rich,
>
> That's a good write-up on compression testing. One might conclude from 
> that
> reading that too much emphasis is often put on the results of compression
> testing and that proper (valid) compression testing is not often
> accomplished.
>
> Much can be learned about the condition of an engine from studying the
> results of a valid test, but inaccurate diagnostics are more commonly the
> main outcome.
>
> My recommendation is to avoid such a test unless you have strong 
> evidence of
> a problem that can be easily identified by a test. If the engine runs well
> and performs properly, don't do the testing. You might see results 
> that will
> cause you undue worries.
>
> Marshall Goodknight, engine failure analyst
>
> (Answer: 88 psig-for about a 20% loss in potential power. The C-300 
> becomes
> a C-240)
>
> Please note: message attached
>
> From: "Rich Barber" <c300@xxxxxxx <mailto:c300%40ez2.net>>
> To: "'Michael Moore'" <mmoore8425@xxxxxxx 
> <mailto:mmoore8425%40aol.com>>, "'300'"
> <Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com>>
> Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] Compression pressure , 300H
> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 22:47:28 -0800
>
> __________________________________________________________
> 7 foods KILL fat
> Surprising foods that boost your metabolism
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/509cecd8c55056cd87e56st01duc
>
> From: "Rich Barber" <c300@xxxxxxx <mailto:c300%40ez2.net>>
>
> Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] Compression pressure , 300H
>
> Date: November 8, 2012 10:47:28 PM PST
>
> To: "'Michael Moore'" <mmoore8425@xxxxxxx 
> <mailto:mmoore8425%40aol.com>>, "'300'"
> <Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com>>
>
> Individual compression pressures on a long non-operated, 85,000 mile, 
> cold,
> ram K block ranged from 100 psi to 140 psi. I found this interesting 
> text on
> analyzing compression pressures. According to the 75% criterion, the 
> engine
> failed, although a properly operated and warmed up engine with properly
> adjusted solid tappets would have probably tightened the range and
> marginally passed.
>
> C300K'ly,
> Rich Barber
>
> COMPRESSION TESTING
>
> Note: although this is written primarily for 4cycle gas engine testing,
> 2cycle gas and diesel follow pretty much the same sequence of procedures.
> Also, many diesel engine companies do not publish specific compression
> readings so the values, in the chart, at the end of this section will 
> be too
> low for use with a diesel, you'll have to do the calculation.
>
> 1. Be sure the crankcase is at the proper level and the battery is 
> properly
> charged. Operate the engine for a minimum of 30 minutes at 1200 rpm, make
> sure that the choke has opened, and the engine is at normal operating
> temperature. Putting a load on the engine for at least 10 minutes, can
> increase the accuracy of your test. Turn the ignition switch off; then
> remove all the spark plugs (injectors on the diesel). If the engine has
> closed cooling, (green anti-freeze) relieve pressure in the cooling 
> system.
> (carefully)
>
> 2. Set the throttle plates and choke plate in the wide open position. On 4
> cycle gas engines: Try not to pump raw fuel into the intake with the
> accelerator pump.
>
> 3. Install compression gauge in No. 1 cylinder.
>
> 4. Install an auxiliary starter switch in the starting circuit. Ground the
> coil wire on gas engines. Next, using the auxiliary starter switch, crank
> the engine (with the ignition switch off) at least five compression 
> strokes
> and record the highest reading.
>
> Count the approximate number of compression strokes required to obtain the
> highest reading.
>
> 5. Repeat the test on each cylinder as was required to obtain the highest
> reading on the No. 1 cylinder.
>
> If the readings degrade from front to rear, re-check the battery and
> possibly re-run the test starting at cylinder #1. In this way you can 
> have a
> set of two tests to compare an average.
>
> TEST CONCLUSION
>
> 2 Cycle Engines:
> Your test results need to be within 15 psi range to be considered an 
> engine
> worth using. For example; a 3 cylinder with readings of 130, 135, and 120
> would be considered a good engine. Some might argue that there should 
> be no
> more than 5psi difference between high and low cylinders. But, obviously,
> the closer the readings are to each other, the better.
>
> 4 Cycle Engines:
> The indicated compression pressures are considered normal if the lowest
> reading cylinder is within 75% of the highest. Refer to the following
> example and chart.
>
> Seventy-five percent of 140, the highest cylinder reading is 105. 
> Therefore,
> cylinder No. 7 being less than 75% of cylinder No. 3 indicates an 
> improperly
> seated valve or worn or broken piston rings.
>
> If one, or more, cylinders read low, squirt approximately one (1) 
> tablespoon
> of engine oil on top of the pistons in the low reading cylinders. Repeat
> compression pressure check on these cylinders.
>
> 1. If compression improves considerably, the piston rings are at fault.
>
> 2. If compression does not improve, valves are sticking or seating poorly.
>
> 3. If two adjacent cylinders indicate low compression pressures and
> squirting oil on the pistons does not increase the compression, the cause
> may be a cylinder head gasket leak between the cylinders. Engine oil 
> and/or
> coolant in the cylinders could result from this problem.
>
> Note: An engine compression test is easy to do but, your results need 
> to be
> tempered with the knowledge of testing conditions that reduce the accuracy
> of your test. As the battery gets weaker, starter gets hotter, and the
> engine cools down, your results from any one cylinder will change. It is
> important to do the test a quickly as possible, with as little cranking as
> needed to complete the test.
> Circumstances arise where a more accurate leak down test should be 
> utilized
> before you start tearing the engine down. Readings that are at the 
> extremes
> of the chart, (meaning over-all very high or very low readings), may
> indicate conditions inside the cylinders that a compression test won't
> depict properly.
> You can do the math yourself but, the following quick reference chart 
> should
> be used when checking cylinder compression pressures. ( to avoid
> mathematical errors) The chart (below) has been calculated so that the
> lowest reading number is 75% of the highest reading.
> Special note: Although the "actual" compression readings are not all that
> important, keep in mind that very few engines will run with a compression
> under 100 psi. However, there are some engines that will test with 
> readings
> in the 90 psi range on a regular basis. If you're not sure if you have one
> of these engines, contact your servicing dealer before you get excited.
>
> Although 75% range is tolerable for an older motor, keep in mind that most
> modern engines are designed at much closer tolerances. Also, on a V8 
> engine,
> if 7 cylinders test at 150psi and only one tests at 113psi, this is not a
> good sign...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> <mailto:Chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com> 
> <mailto:Chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> <mailto:Chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com> 
> <mailto:Chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com> ]
> On Behalf Of Michael Moore
> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 11:13 AM
> To: 300
> Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] Compression pressure , 300H
>
> Sorry, that would be engine compression.
>
> Mike Moore
>
> On Nov 8, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Michael Moore wrote:
>
> Does anyone have available the pressure I should read for a stock 300H 
> when
> cranking (with all plugs out) ?
>
> Thanks, Mike Moore
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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