Yesterday I had a chance to look at the underside of a ’64 Silver Edition 300. One thing caught my eye. The OD of the heads of the tie rods looked smaller than the ones on my car. I ordered and put in all new tie rods and the center rod
as well.
I am wondering if that could be the issue. I have the, what may be the factory ones, on the floor at my place out of town as I did not toss them out. When I am up there next, I need to measure the OD of the heads on those and the one on
the car.
It could be a stacking tolerance issue. If the head is a little larger, the idle arm hole-bolt is a little loose and/or the lower control arm bushing is worn and all allowing the torsion bar to head of the ire rod to come too close to each
other…
I think, I do not know, that the large center tie rod bar should be level visa-vie the frame rails. There is some movement in the bolts on the steering box that could allow for the end of the steering arm to move up and down a little, just
like a loose idle arm.
One thing I have been thinking about is how the idle arm bracket bolt holes can and do get worn. Once could weld them up and re-drill them. But I have been thinking of another idea. Drill them out and make some steel bushings for those
holes. But for the lower hole make the bushing with the bolt hole off set. Then one cold raise or lower the idle arm to get the center bar dead level and even with the steering arm. Once in place the lower bushing could be given a small tack weld to keep it
from moving. The up side is that one could send the bushings out to have them hardened so that the bolt and not the bracket would wear in the future.
James
From: John Grady <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2023 05:43
To: James Douglas <jdd@xxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: Gary <garythepartsdoc@xxxxxxxxxxxx>; Henry A. Mitchell III <hamlll@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; johnlchesnutt@xxxxxxxxx; Dave Dumais <dave.dumais@xxxxxxxxx>; Chrysler 300 List Server <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: {Chrysler 300} Idle arm and other delights...
may be wrong dimension replacement ? . Someone wanted the bearing .
RE : Johns comment , yes some chrysler literature speaks of damping of rubber twist particularly in control arm bush . This impact imho is totally minimal , compared to hundreds if not thousands of pounds exerted by shocks ; I don’t buy
it . given that all the high performance upgrades today have none of that . For instance polyurethane .
Instead ,and I think why , I have encountered mechanics even today who put oil on the bushings trying to get them in . The rubber turns to black goo in a year if you oil them. I really think Chrysker did not want to get into opinions etc
. So this story prevented oiling ( I know about how service people will think they know far more than factory , I had 100 of them full of own ideas at one point) .
And in steering , friction in ball joints is huge compared to any thing tubber can add to steering effort . Besides , a flopping around sagged down idler is a much larger stability problem than friction at that pivot . remember power
steering probably exerts 500-1000 lbs 6” out from pivot . It cannot feel that rubber .
As someone mentioned there is a plain steel bush variant too , and one can crush the “frame ears “ on those , but I think some have a stepped bolt . All this caused by problems with oem new ideas .
Another thing loose rubber leads to is shimmy as net result of loose idler is passenger side wheel flopping around .
No , IMHO , rubber idler mount was a bad idea in 1957 and still is a bad idea .
And cheap ! For truth , always follow the $ sign . Why Moog ( was it moog? ) made an improved one that cost more — at option. with two bearings and spacer . This part was nothing but trouble in these cars .
James may have an incorrect part , aside from rubber / bearing issue but root of that may have been someone going for a bearing one.
Gary,
Mine has the Moog bearing change for the bushings. One thing. Take a look at my arm and then look at the one you posted with this email. Is it optical or does mine look like it arcs up and yours is relatively flat?
James
Here is how I converted idler arm to ball bearing. Left assembly shows the ball bearings with machined custom Delrin spacers. End result it looks like original when
assembled.
From: Henry A. Mitchell III
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2023 1:05 PM
Cc: 'Dave Dumais' ; 'Chrysler 300 List Server'
Subject: RE: {Chrysler 300} Idle arm and other
delights...
I am with the Johns. A couple of years ago I had the front end aligned on my 300C. idler arm was total trash material. Went online and found a polyurethane bushing and pressed it into the idler arm. The general
consensus from the front end guy was that the idler arm bushing was too close to the exhaust pipe to last very long. Fast forward about 1000 miles and the idler arm is all over the place. I pressed out the poly bushing, it looked perfect, except for the hole.
Do I have to do this every 1000 miles?? I rooted around in my parts bin and found an original idler arm with the Chrysler/IBM punch card attached to it showing the original, correct part number. No rubber….just a steel bushing pressed into the cast iron idler
arm and two ball bearings, one sits on top of the bushing on one underneath.
The other Henry
300C
Hi John Grady,
Many years ago, I replaced the rubber idler arm bushing with a real metal bearing which I do not recommend. That was in the 1960’s. Went back to the factory rubber bushing. The purpose of the rubber bushing is
to dampen the steering. My experience is with our 1957 300C which we have owned for 64 years. I agree that there are other adjustments that may be incorrect. Thanks for your comments.
John in Portland, OR
makes sense , are stops ok ? i thought stud hits , sorry .
This vaguely brings to mind a Ford i once worked on that had wrong front end parts installed or symmetrical offsets were uoside down or something ? I forget details but drove me crazy .
FYI The classic front end failure on mopars of this era is the passenger idler arm bushing . stock rubber one gets loose , oil turns it to jelly , it can fall down vertically , not obvious . . and the impact or
inaccurate pivot varys with steering angle .
In fighting that , I found one aftermarket supplier made one with a real metal bearing in it , no rubber — keeps it straight . I found that metal bearing one in an F put there by someone else long ago . Again
from memory I think OAL of arm may vary by year and car line or wheelbase , vaguely remember two different lengths but look the same and fit in same place
At the time I chased metal one down , but disorganized , i do not have that number .
Yours probably has been changed , but try pushing up and down vertically on it . Or chase down metal bearing one . Might be sagging …
Tie rods in center of range. It is the top of the tie rod that is rubbing on the underside of the torsion bar on an extreme right turn.
The fact that there is a ¼ inch more clearance on the steering arm side than the idle arm side is what is telling me that I may have a bent idle arm. Someone may have gone over a curb at some point or someone may
have stuck a jack under it to change a tire and did not realize they were on the arm and not one the frame.
James
from quick description ,? not adjusted right , —-as you could still get correct wheel alignment readings but tie rod itself not in center of adjustment range ? if understanding right, and alignment right ?
see if equal exposed adjuster threads ?
otherwise ? ?= a bent spindle arm
piece —but doubt that , a rugged piece ?
admittedly not a specialty of the house …
If stud hits grind clearance , live with it if alignment ok , maybe frame welding issue or control arm location forced “end of range“ adjustment . I think there are end stops somewhere , maybe it is going too
far , ?
Maybe stud projection varies by mfg?
How about this one ? ! drum mount surface of front hub apparently not orthogonal to spindle axis ? Makes drum wobble in and out if spun on turning machine , can’t grind drum . does it on car too . If you do grind
on wrong (slightly tilted ) center, trying to take out eccentricity (essentially,), pedal pulsates . Gets complicated what goes on.
Can’t be bent — it is 1/2” thick solid steel ring that studs press into . Made wrong ? Why all this weird stuff lately . Cosmic misalignment —
Hi Dave,
The idle arm bearings are new and greased. All the tie rods are new.
I have all the parts for the control arms and struts to replace.
I was under the car on the rack and could see where the tie rod had contacted the torsion bar. When I stuck my finger up there, I noted that the distance on the idle arm side was less than the steering arm side.
On an extreme right turn the tie rod of course goes up and on the right side that ¼ of an inch matters. This distance is fixed and is not subject to the springs (bars) other than if the front end moves due to worn
bushings.
I measured them and the distance on the steering side was 1-1/2 inch on the steering side and 1-1/4 inch on the idle arm side. From the bottom of the torsion bars to the center of the tie rod stud.
I would like to see what someone else gets when they measure these distances.
James
James,
The 64 suspension members are available
NOS at the Virginia warehouse.
There is a 64 N Yorker currently on the rack
Not able to access measurements until next week.
Went to Carlisle swap meet last Saturday.
Obtained idler. Pitman, drag link and upper control arms.
Check the lower control arm bushings for play
D
On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 7:06 PM, 'James Douglas' via Chrysler 300 Club International
*** I am still hopeful that someone can measure the distance from the bottom of the torsion bars to the center of the tie rod studs on a ’63 or ’64 for me so I can see if my idle arm is bent.
*** I sent an email to the Detroit Public Library asking if they had the AMA sheets for 1964 Chrysler in the National Automotive History Collection at the Skillman Branch Library where it is housed.
Turns out that some billionaire is building some big thing in downtown Detroit, and they closed the branch until it is near completed due to parking and other disruption. The real burn is that the Detroit Public Library reference librarians do not have access
either. So, anyone wanting or needing information from the National Automotive History Collection
In Downtown Detroit… is screwed until some rich guy gets has edifice built.
*** We ran the 300K hard for the first time these last 10 days. From our place in San Francisco up to our place near Lake Berryessa a 160-mile round trip plus a lot of drives down to Vacaville and
back to Winters for runs to Home Depot. The car is running ok. Not perfect, but OK. I need to sort out what is wrong with the steering geometry, I think is may well be the idle arm. It could also be a lower control arm bushing or a combination. I need to
get into the brakes. I also heard a small ticking-rumbling sound and I think it may be a universal joint or a wheel bearing. I plan in replacing all of them soon.
*** Door Panels. On my car the driver’s door top is through the upholstery. Other then that the door panels look fairly good. I know that if I want to replace the vinyl on the panel, I will have to
do them all to get them to match. I really do not want to go there as getting new panel material and tearing into them is a long job to do correctly. I know as I have done them twice before on a ‘64. I did have a thought and would not mind people’s thoughts
on it. There is a stainless strip the wraps around the top of the panel. The inside belt whisker attaches to it and then it wraps just around the top to cover the top edge of the vinyl. I wonder about making up to replacements for that strip that wrap around
and down past the level of the two outboard panel screws. Say 1/8 inch below the screws. These would then allow me to keep from having to rebuild all door panels. It would also help with the fact that this is the spots that always wear through. Of course,
on a hot day it would get hot!
*** Power Master wrote be back in the subject of the 90 AMP round bottom early 1960’s Alternators that have the “correct” case. I sent them all my data and findings and they confirmed it. The larger
the output beyond 40 AMPS and the sensing circuit using the MECHANINCAL voltage regulators causes the system into an overvolt situation. They made a change in their catalog suggesting that people should use an electronic VR with it. Company double speak as
opposed to just admitting that it may not work correctly with a mechanical VR. I would like to talk with someone who is an EE with a background in alternators and generators to understand exactly what is going on. I suspect that as the current levels go up
the magnetic field becomes more sensitive to the voltage sensing circuit or something along those lines. By the way, the Transpro V1200 electronic adjustable voltage regulator I set for 13.8 volts (shows 13.7 at the cigar lighter gauge) has been dead steady.
Interesting in that the brake lights use .2 volts.
*** I purchased a set of those new (eBay) ’64 circuit boards for the dash. With the 90 AMP alternator putting out about 50 at idle and those board the lights in the dash at idle at night with everything
on is great! I recommend them.
I hope all are having a good spring.
Best, James
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