RE: {Chrysler 300} upper ball joints / heads up

["Henry Schleimer" <henry.schleimer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi John

My experience when I got my first Val 40 years ago was to trust mechanics as this was all new to me.  However, things changed quickly.

Example 1.  Got my upper control arm bushes replaced and had wheel alignment by a shop close by.  The first sweeping corner I got to, the front tyres started squealing.  What the? Got home and jacked up the car.  Found all four cams laying neatly on the chassis rail. Nuts were bottomed on threads - but no clamping going on.  Went straight back to the mechanic and slammed the cams down on the counter.  His look of horror I will never forget. He just realised he could have killed me. His excuse - he let the 16 year old apprentice finish the job.

Example 2.  I did an idler arm change and went to a different shop for a wheel alignment so I could go on a long trip the next day.  Got about 200 miles up the highway and the front tyre exploded at 60 mph.  Luckily I could control it to the side of the road.  Put on the spare and limped into the next town.  Had to beg a wheel alignment shop to do quick look at the alignment while he was literally pulling down the garage door for the day.  Verdict - upper control arm cam bolts tight on left side, loose on the right blown tyre side.  RHS wheel pointing to who knows where!

After black-banning two shops in a row, I could no longer trust my life to so called mechanics because they just don't know or just don't care.  From then on I decided to buy a workshop manual and any other book on how to work on cars, become an expert on my car, buy the right tools and do it all myself.  If it was that bad 40 years ago, is it any better now when mechanics use lap tops and wear rubber gloves to do an oil change?

I value stories such as your ball joint experience as they add to a body of knowledge.  While I appreciate many are not capable of doing the work themselves, my advice is you are all capable of educating yourself about how work on your car should be done and what to look out for.  I do know my limitations though and don't work on a car that I haven't researched first and never work on someone else's car.

Cheers

Henry  

-----Original Message-----
From: chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John Grady
Sent: Monday, 16 October 2023 9:53 PM
To: Henry Schleimer
Cc: chrysler 300 club
Subject: Re: {Chrysler 300} upper ball joints / heads up

it was checked correctly , but even under no load there was zero detectable  play at ball joint due to that spade shaped wear . It jams it tight . 
How to check really correctly is unload wheel as you say (and we did) but add to that knocking or pulling upper control arm down onto spindle ? See if shaft moves inward ? May take significant force , and you cannot lift wheel up or rattle vertically as lower ball joint is loaded . 
Improperly torqued and stripped clamp bolts at arm pivot contribute to lack of detectability as the rubber torsion is needed .
>From another perspective I have encountered  this suspension with the rubber totally  disintegrated .
And you have idiots who get oil on them etc trying to get in which destroys the rubber .
All in all , just good to know about how BJ fails at end of life . Not obvious at all Nor is a loose pivot adjustment bolt , better said  not loose but not torqued to value either . Then bushing moves freely on bolt J


Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 15, 2023, at 11:32 AM, Henry Schleimer <henry.schleimer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
> On cars with torsion bars or springs on lower control arms (like Chrysler), jack under lower control arm close to lower ball joint and lift tyre off the ground to unload the ball joints to check for wear (vertical and radial) in both ball joints with a pry bar under the tyre.  No need to loosen torsion bars.
> 
> Badly made ball joints have been around for a long time.  I remember I had one on my first Valiant.  Can't tell you what to buy but I would avoid the cheapest - even though that might not be a guarantee of quality these days. 
> 
> Henry
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: 'James Douglas' via Chrysler 300 Club International 
> [mailto:chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Sunday, 15 October 2023 6:51 AM
> To: John Grady; chrysler 300 club
> Subject: RE: {Chrysler 300} upper ball joints / heads up
> 
> John,
> 
> I am glad that you and your car are fine.  Wow!  Makes me like my Desoto's king pin systems a little more.
> 
> I would say that given manufacturing quality these days every 24 to 36 months, for a daily driver, or every 30K miles perhaps it would not be a bad idea to jack the car up, loosen the torsion bars, take off the wheels and check the control arms and ball joints for any issues. 
> 
> I know on my King Pin cars every year I grab the bottom of a tire and rock it to see of the bearing or the king pin feels like it has too much play. Most of the time if there is any play it is in the wheel bearings. But once in a while the King Pin.
> 
> As you mention in Torsion Bar cars with ball joints it is not that simple. You would have to unload the spring pressure to effectively do the same check as on a King Pin system.
> 
> Another thing to add to my every 24-month maintenance punch list.
> 
> James
> 
> PS. Imagine how much more up and down movement one would get on the cam adjuster when the nut loosened if it was the type with the flat across the entire bolt?
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of John 
> Grady
> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2023 13:23
> To: chrysler 300 club 
> <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: {Chrysler 300} upper ball joints / heads up
> 
> Recently there was an exchange with James about upper control arm bushings etc . 
> related to that was a recent failure here that really could have taken me out  .
> The upper joints were checked many times , over 15-20 years as recently as six months ago . What i describe is forensic on my part and I am extremely grateful to a sharp person at a state inspection station that fortuitously found what we had missed .
> I will describe what seems to have happened ( see pic) After many thousands of miles where the upper ball joint motion is apparently dealing with an up and down action / wear primarily , as opposed to rotary ( steering ) motion , the sides of the hemispherical part of the inner ball joint wear  a spade shaped pattern into the round outer housing at right angles  to the car long axis . Soon it apparently could not turn due to that wearing in one place so the steering ( rotary ) motion we think was allowed by the center mount bolt turning within the hemisphere ; this  is a press fit I think when new as in a brand new joint the hemisphere turns with steering , and angled grease lines point to that as to how it steers and moves up and down too . 
> However once the hemisphere is frozen to rotation due to matching wear pockets it is still capable of moving in the spade shaped recesses for suspension travel . 
> So what really happens is it gets tight as anything to any reasonable side force at a ball joint check , even with load off wheel ( lifted by lower control arm ) it is apparently ( to you ) zero play . 
> Because the clamp bolts in the A frame bushing had been stripped (!) the rubber bushings were not acting in torsion to hold the A arm somewhat , the A  arm moved easily up and down on the bolts  with the  ball joint housing  , (turning freely on the control arm bolts ) This is wrong !!! 
> They had deep grooves from this . See pix . If you think about it , pushing up to check a ball joint side to side play or wear depends on the A arm not going up freely too (!) . 
> It is critical those A arm frame adjuster bolts are torqued enough to clamp the control arm inner sleeve really tight and so prevent rotary motion — by bending the “ ears “ inward .
> 
> Now it appears to me that wrong nuts may have been placed on the bolts long ago ( are they tall nuts ? they should be !) On attempted reassembly they were stripped  junk .—  to solve this we had acorn nuts on hand with a lot of internal thread without bottoming , they achieved the required torque . Which is very close to max for this size bolt — and the bolt is missing some thread area due to the flat on it , so from an engineering perspective says it needs a tall grade 8 nut . Watch out !
> 
>  Flat on bolt side is not an issue as tge design depends on tension induced friction to lock  all together like a rod bolt once aligned . It is going nowhere . 
> 
> Back to ball joint , the tech was very  thorough , maybe pushed down on upper arm or just saw something funky , ( stud out of ball joint “more than normal” ? ) but ball joint went completely loose as beyond worn  out when spindle was pushed into upper arm ( which looseness would have happened, ? a noise , while   driving — if bushings were tight ) 
> 
> Failed inspection . 
> 
> So when we first went to disassemble and pushed bolt up , the remains of hemisphere fell out in 4 pieces cracked along the grease lines , ball joint housing still solidly in control arm . Out came the center stud free in the breeze . You get this , right ? You meet a guard rail, —- after a big pot hole bumps spindle up wards . 
> The hemisphere in this joint was made of powdered metal technology , any engineer doing a press fit into that material should be fired . I had a chinese oil pump in my slant six , powder metal drive gear was press fit cracked at bottom of the tooth profile = zero oil pressure . Steel will stretch to yield on a press never fail like this . Junk way to do things .  Powder metal in tension is just stupid . 
> Once cracked like this ,  inner bolt was free to turn for steering so 
> you seem happy … note rotary wear pattern around that bolt ( shiny 
> place )
> 
> 
> A Big heads up here , (!!!! ) — press down on control arm , try to push bolt up in to really check it .
> 
> More reading led to Missouri State Police inspection document —- car by car instructions . 
> Someone there knows about this . 
> 
> 
> As all our cars are quite old and the torsion bar setup primarily  loads the lower joint not upper , and so replaced more often , upper may be ignored too long ..  
> I did a search on Ball Joint life ,75 to 150 k is norm . 
> This email is already also too long , but check this danger out . 
> Also got into the “thread in ball joint“  problems , but that is another long one .. 
> Think about this , old cars have it   
> John G
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
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