Wow. Why the urge to purge yourself of all this? Maybe putting a bumper sticker on your Hemi Challenger saying MY OTHER CAR IS A TELSA would give you some peace? Seriously, there is a place for electric cars now and into the future. My only problem is at the moment, those manufacturers have convinced certain governments to hand out huge subsidies both for the cars and the charging infrastructure, plus to not pay for road maintenance. That means all taxpayers are putting money into the pockets of electric car owners and Elon Musk (like he needs any more money). Maybe electric car owner should pay the real cost themselves like other car owners do. Then they could feel less conflicted about trying to save the planet. Henry From: chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sam Cohen
Sent: Monday, 6 November 2023 6:00 AM
To: Frank & Cathy Messina; rpjasin@xxxxxxxxxxx; 'Steve'
Cc: chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: {Chrysler 300} Bad news Hi, I hope I’m not reopening a can of worms by reopening this email chain. I’ve had the car gene all my life. I bought my first car, a 71 Dodge Challenger with a 318, for $200 when I was 14 and earning $2.50/hour. That got me started on Mopars. I’m also a passionate environmentalist. I don’t see a contradiction between preserving these old cars and stewardship of the planet. We know 426 hemi’s are no longer going to be our daily drivers, but when I put my foot to the floor in my 66 Charger, everyone in the car has a stupid grin on their face. I took out an elderly neighbor who lost his drivers license for a ride in my Challenger convertible hemi (clone). He laughed his head off and said he hadn’t had that much fun in 20 years. The smiles per pound of carbon and the unburned hydrocarbons were so worth it. I wish Herb was still around to come on out for a ride. I have made so many great connections and memories from the old car hobby and in particular the 300 Club. The scariest ride I had in my life was at age 16 with a retired minister who took me for a 90 mph ride on a back road in the 56 Corvette I had just tracked down for him. He had complete confidence that there would be no oncoming cars. My daily drivers are a Tesla Model S that I bought used and came with free fuel for life at Tesla Superchargers and a 1988 Toyota pickup that I mainly drive on the ranch. The Tesla is far faster than the hemi and makes people laugh just as hard when I get on it and they are mashed back in their seat. I’m very happy to know that I can drive around without emitting CO2 if the electricity is from renewable energy. I’m also happy to know that all the fuel for my car is produced domestically and no money is going to oil companies or hostile foreign governments. Electricity is cheaper fuel than gasoline, electricity prices are more stable than gasoline and the more cars use electricity for their fuel, the lower the demand and price for oil that everyone else pays. I still planning to be driving my 300F and Challenger decades from now. Thanks Bob, very well stated. On Tue, Oct 3, 2023 at 1:36 PM, Bob Jasinski Steve, Before I responded, I needed some time to “cool off”. I know you attended the Pasadena meet and appreciate that you were able to bring your 300F. I was so busy I didn’t get a chance to chat with you so that we could get to know each other better as club members, not just people on the list server. I see in the roster that you have a C, F, H (2) an L and a Hurst. Knowing that you have that many Letter Cars, reassures me that you really are an enthusiast, and do love vintage Chryslers and probably other makes as well. I must admit for a while I thought you could be an “operative” from CARB, pretending to be passionate of our cars while seeking to promote the CARB agenda from within. After several days of contemplative thought I don’t feel that way anymore, even though it seems we have to agree to disagree on the climate change issue. Based on what I’ve read, the “97%” of scientists that say there is a “climate emergency” are a relatively small group that have been funded to seek a certain outcome. Recent excellent books like PHD writer Steven Koonin’s “Unsettled: What Climate Science Tells Us, What It Doesn't, and Why It Matters” provides a reasonable, rational opinion that, yes, there is climate change, but no, it is not an existential threat. From a review: “Koonin also tackles society's response to a changing climate, using data-driven analysis to explain why many proposed "solutions" would be ineffective, and discussing how alternatives like adaptation and, if necessary, geoengineering will ensure humanity continues to prosper. Unsettled is a reality check buoyed by hope, offering the truth about climate science that you aren't getting elsewhere - what we know, what we don't, and what it all means for our future.” I think it is very telling how “climate change” has gotten to be a political issue rather than a factual concern. Just what “facts” are there really? The climate has been changing for 4.5 billion years and will continue to do so. It is largely controlled but the sun and axial tilt of the planet. Carbon dioxide is necessary for plants to grow, and there is science that supports more carbon dioxide will benefit food production by increasing plant growth. By now you’re thinking, who does this guy think he is? He’s no climate scientist, he has no degree in that field. You’re right, I don’t, but I do read a lot, and I am not taken with “doom and gloom” dogma that is politically motivated to control our day to day life and seeks to strip us of freedoms we enjoy. I understand that you work for an organization that is very political, and you have to “talk the talk” and “walk the walk”. That’s fine except when it becomes over done and based on “science” that is unsettled and probably never will be because there will always be weather changes and varying global temperatures that mankind will never be able to control. I am taking the time to write this because you are a Club member and I value your friendship as I do all members of our fine club. I only ask that you respect my opinions, and I will respect your opinions and ask that you, as a vintage car enthusiast, do what you can to seek out a reasonable compromise that allows us to continue to enjoy and drive our vintage vehicles. Keep in mind that our hobby contributes a great deal to local economies at car shows, raises funds for good causes, preserves history, brings people from all races and backgrounds together, provides jobs, and for many of us, a hobby that gets us through difficult times in our lives and contributes to our fulfillment of life. Please use your position at CARB to help us continue to enjoy and drive our cars. 300ly, Bob Jasinski Danville, CA 300G convertible owner since January 1978 Bob, in our current society, there is a lot of hate going around in this country in general towards government - some folks seem to genuinely "hate" Republicans and some "hate" Democrats relative to their efforts going forward and there is plenty of animosity to go around, the extent of which I have never seen before in my 76 years on this planet. Some folks just seem to detest (if you prefer) government regulations in general and others try to understand the intent of regulations such as those being implemented to deal with what scientists call global warming, which is the heart of why California government is trying to limit ever increasing amounts of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere that acts like a warming blanket (a molecule of CO2 in the upper atmosphere takes approximately 100 years before it dissociates into oxygen and carbon) . When setting smog limiting standards for automobiles, the Air Resources Board embarked on a program to limit emissions of hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides that react in sunlight to produce so-called "smog" in the atmosphere. Many folks "hated" those regulations as well because in the early stages of implementation there were problems with driveability and performance that were serious but with continued development those efforts succeeded and eliminated our serious pollution events. So it is again with the so-called "climate change" measures that are being implemented to deal with excessive temperatures both hot and cold going forward. Vehicles that consume gasoline and other carbon based fuels will increase atmospheric levels of carbon dioxide according to scientists and if we do not do our best to curb such pollution then the future looks bleak for this planet according to those who have spent their lives as atmospheric scientists. Thus California via the Air Resources Board is spearheading efforts to curb CO2 emissions through use of renewable energy and once again this State is moving ahead of most other states in making this happen because the effects of climate change show up in this State more vividly than in other states with more extremes in temperatures here. Yes, at this point I believe by 2035 our state will no longer permit the sale of NEW vehicles that run on carbon based fuels - vehicles that are already on the road can still be used and they can still be sold/traded as used vehicles (to address John's concerns). New Vehicle manufacturers already see what the future will bring and nearly all of them have already decided that before 2035 they will no longer produce such vehicles anyway because EVs have a lot of advantages over current gasoline/diesel vehicles such as reduced maintenance, less expensive to refuel,less expensive to build and many more. Battery life and recharging times are rapidly improving at this moment and such advances as solid state batteries will substantially reduce the cost and improve the performance of vehicles going forward and they will likely last the life of the vehicle. These battery improvements are happening rapidly based on claims by such companies as Toyota, Tesla and most others as well. Above it was suggested that Jay Leno is important to older vehicle owners such as the Chrysler 300 owners in our club to allow our cars to be operated going forward and a reduced need to get them off the road. During the unveil of the future Dodge Chargers and Challengers that will also be going all-electric, he made the comment that he embraced the future battery electric vehicles that will likely be the norm (some might be fuel cells, etc) because with each new such vehicle being introduced, their elimination of carbon emissions reduces the need to get the older classic vehicles off the road and that should give classic vehicles owners a sigh of relief going forward - and I share his view. I was not implying that our Club members show "hate" towards one another or folks in general or anything like that (in fact, based on attendance at a couple of our many car shows/events around the country each year, this group of individuals are among the nicest people I have ever met) but many folks in this country do seem to detest (if you prefer) any new government regulations being developed to make our older cars less of a problem in society going forward. Rather, I share the view of Jay Leno that the introduction of advanced new cars actually helps preserve our ability to keep driving our older vehicles rather than them becoming "garage queens". In closing, I will just add that I would estimate that perhaps 20% of Air Resources Board employees are old car enthusiasts and share our hobby (I mentioned once before that their former Executive Officer (recently retired) owns a 1969 Plymouth Road Runner, for example). These "puff pieces" of "news" such as the one here from the "Daily Caller" just serve to enhance their readership and can be very misleading but do generate a lot of emotion that is unnecessary. Steve, With all due respect, your use of the word “hate” about members of this Club sharing concerns of government intrusion is misplaced and inaccurate. The article I posted is a warning to Club members that our right to pursuit of happiness is being seriously threatened. We are all car people here. Yes, the future holds promise for new technologies, electric cars etc., but that is not the reason we are in this club and on this forum. From our Constitution: “The Club exists to collect and publish information on these vehicles, to encourage enjoyment of these vehicles, and to hold meetings and events to further benefit these vehicles.” I live in California and I deal with the challenges of one sided politics here. Vicki and I have deep roots that are not easily severed so as to provide an easy exit from the state. Where there is smoke, there is fire. Like the canary in the coalmine, or the frog in the hot water feeling the heat before it kills him, this forum provides a means of sharing with fellow members that our enjoyment of these vehicles is being seriously threatened. What happens in California has a way of traveling eastward, good and bad. I very much appreciate your input and contacts you have with CARB members. Sharing information gleaned from your phone conversations with CARB members is appreciated, but I live by the adage “trust but verify”. If you choose to call that “hate speech” that is your right. It does not however, alleviate my concerns, or verify my trust that the ability to use, operate and enjoy the use of my 300G as more than a static display is not threatened. 300LY, Bob Jasinski Danville, CA Bob Jasinski 331 La Questa Dr. Danville, CA 94526 925-831-9727 home 925-366-0035 cell "I strongly doubt that any specific vehicle technology will be banned in the market,....." To my knowledge John, the performance vehicles you have highlighted have not been outlawed. Yes, the California ARB is promoting a movement to more climate friendly vehicles through the use of renewable fuels such as electric vehicles with a goal of electricity production from wide scale use of mostly renewable energy in the future. Renewable energy mostly means reliance on increased solar and windmill based technologies with other such means being available in the more distant future more than likely such as fuel cells powered by hydrogen that many manufacturers are pursuing for the more distant future. Gasoline vehicles didn't replace the horse and buggy all at once either - it took time. Also the performance vehicles you highlight will be eclipsed in the not too distant future because incredible performance is much more easily achieved by EVs with one or more electric motors that deliver performance that is unbelievable if you have ever experienced it such as in the Tesla model S Plaids. New battery technologies are being worked on at present such as solid state ones that will be much cheaper, durable and more quickly charged as technology improves. I strongly doubt that any specific vehicle technology will be banned in the market, rather improvement in propulsion sources will over time obsolete them instead as happened at the last turn of the century. Thanks Nick for your balanced reply - I did just get off the phone with my contacts at the Air Resources Board and the purpose of the study remains the same - to get a better idea of the contribution of older cars to the overall air quality in this state and to possibly take more of the older vehicles out of our Smog Check program as the State has done in the past. Many Smog Check stations in the state are also getting out of the dynamometer emission testing business and will now only test cars with OBD II systems that are model year 2000 and later and are all equipped with OBD II. All cars built before 2000 model year with or without OBDII still have to pass a dynamometer test, and those owners are now having a harder time to even find a station that will do the testing. Those stations don't want the hassle of keeping their dynamometers well maintained and the emission measurement equipment also maintained which means using calibration gasses that are up to date and their emission analyzers also well maintained. They make much more money on 2000 and newer vehicles where all they need is to check the OBD II system for faults and if there are none, they pass and make a $50 or higher profit in just a couple of minutes with no dynamometer emission related use at all in their shops anymore. The other input I received from the person I talked with that is higher up in the organization is that decisions to implement "No Drive" zones are typically made by cities themselves, not the Air Resources Board and that many times even those decisions might well be targeted at reducing traffic congestion in those zones - for example, the city of Santa Monica was considering such a restriction to reduce the traffic congestion there when beach goers and diners at restaurants on the ocean piers are big draws to that city but such a restriction was never implemented. Yes, the ARB was the leader in implementing ever increasing improvements in tailpipe emissions from new cars and was able to take that lead because under President Reagan, there was a carve out in vehicle emissions for newer vehicles in California to adopt stricter emission standards than the other states because of their much more polluted cities than the rest of the nation - usually the Federal EPA adopted California tailpipe emissions standards about 4 years after California led the way. The air in California has been very clean such that complaints about smog are virtually non-existent for years now. The ARB technical staff was comprised of top notch engineers that came from the top colleges in the nation and also with ex-auto industry engineers as well. The technology present on today's most modern vehicles has their fingerprints all over them. What is it about the Dodge Charger and Challenger Hellcats, for example, that you find so terrible wherein the precise fuel control, good efficiency (in terms of miles per gallon) for the power they put out don't you like??? And given these relatively sophisticated technologies now in use that perform so well also are very clean in terms of tailpipe emissions and relatively easy to diagnose with the help of OBDII and standardized vehicle connectors that help technicians to diagnose any problems within those vehicles. OBD II was invented by the ARB alone with no input from EPA and that was not an easy job since the auto industry fought like Hell to not allow it to be implemented but ultimately lost. The auto industry hated that regulation because in order to keep the check engine lights off and not turn customers away, they had to make more durable cars and that cost them some money. But now we have many vehicles that can go 200K miles before being retired and not 100K as was the norm. What is so evil about that? I find all this hate misplaced towards that agency since their leadership and grasp of engineering technology and staff that used the same modeling sources that the auto industry sources used themselves to develop precise models of engineering improvements before developing and implementing them and setting new vehicle requirements for both emissions and powertrain efficiency and performance.that owners would appreciate as well. Personally, it seems folks these days find it easy to hate rather than rationalize and study the real facts before making their minds up about matters based on misleading or false information that seems to be thrown at us non stop these days. Don't panic! CARB does these studies from time to time and each time they find that collector cars contribute so little to pollution in the state that no action is necessary. This is totally separate from having emission free zones in cities. They are actually planning to roll back the biennial emissions testing for older vehicles. Currently vehicles that are 1975 and older are not subject to the smog testing. That will change to a newer year. At one point it was supposed to automatically change each year. The difference this year with the CARB study is that social media has turned this into a freak out session through the classic car community, encouraging owners not to respond to the study. They know how many classic cars are registered in the state, if you don't tell them how many miles you drive them, they can, and will, assume that you are driving them more than you are. --
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-- While I agree with all the great things you said about OBDII and the technology in the modern Gen III Hemi equipped modern cars that make clean power with good mileage and little polution, it still didn't stop the bureaucrats from outlawing these wonderful ICE products.
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