Re: 727 Leaking Fluid like it was made in Great Britain
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Re: 727 Leaking Fluid like it was made in Great Britain
- From: "John Hammond" <426_maxwedge@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 02:33:39 -0400
Thanks for all the replies so far ! Lots of good info and things to check
on - please add any imput you think might be of help here. I've been reading
a great deal on line, have ordered the Carl Munroe 727 Book, and plan to
reread the FSM transmission section over again tommrow. With my research so
far, it's beginning to look like this may be somewhat more common than I
initially thought: and one "fix" that has become apparant has been to tap
and plug the vent in the front pump, and add a new vent to the rear of the
case forward of the tailshaft. A couple of companies even offer kits for
this, that utilize a vented expansion tank and/or some provision for a
return line back to the sump area of the transmission. These do seem do
usually be used in transbrake and/or manual valve bodied applications too.
Still, this seems to be missing the mark for my problem, due to the low
loads, and few miles driven on a mild street build. Something has simply
caused a leak that needs to be sought out and fixed rather than redirecting
it and allowing it to remain, (I'm guessing here), unchecked and
inappropriate for its intended use. I am so bummed out by this I can't
hardly will myself to look under the the thing, or raise the hood, or even
wash the last oil down off of it. I guess I need a break from bug chasin',
but with the season winding to a close, days getting shorter, temps
dropping, I really hoped to get in a few all out full-throttle,
spirit-lifters before the local scene dwindled-out till next spring. Funds
are super-tight right now, and hopefully I can get this solved without a
complete rebuild or replacement pretty quick, and fairly
inexpensively....the saga continues. Again thanks to any and all who have
offered advice or assistance. '64 Rusted-Out 330 wagon: Free for Towing
Home...'64 330 PartsCar: $200. ... Restification of Rusted-Out 330 Wagon:
Six Years and Thousands of Dollars...Additional 727 Repairs to date: $675.
.....
Thrill of Driving a Mopar Every Day.....PRICELESS !! John Hammond
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike & Deb" <lefevre@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: <1962to1965mopars@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2011 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: 727 Leaking Fluid like it was made in Great Britain
John,
I'm not sure it would make any difference but is the windage baffle in
place over the vent hole? The newer TF's eliminated it but placed a
plastic baffle on the inside of the vent.
Mike LeFevre
On 9/8/2011 1:57 AM, John Hammond wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: 426_maxwedge@xxxxxxxxxxx
To: "The 1962 to 1965 Mopar Mail List Clubhouse"
<1962to1965mopars@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 11:37 PM
Subject: Torqueflite Flood
This one seems to have everyone stumped and the ordeal so far will make
for a long explanation: so please bear with me, and ANY imput or past
experiences relayed will be most appreciated. My '64 330 wagon has a mild
440 backed by a Full Manual Valve-Bodied 727. Both engine and transmission
are fresh rebuilds from respected shops and have less than 200 miles on
them. Since the 440 is so new, I've been really conservative in driving
style and nothing has seen the high side of 3800rpm yet. Coming home from
a cruise-in a scant 7 miles from my home a few weeks back everything is as
fine as it has been since it's first miles driven. Later that evening the
wife and I decide to go for a bite to eat and drive the wagon to the
restarant. Coming off of a long hill in third at about 50mph something
lets go and pumps most all of the trans-fluid out of the 727 and oils down
the exhaust so bad I thought it was an electrical fire under the dash: car
was so full of smoke it was hard to see out. I get it on the side of the
road and by the time I had the fire extinguisher in hand, the tons of
smoke had dissipated and a wave of trans fluid ran out from underneath the
car. Quickly looking underneath the STREAM of fluid was coming from the
inspection cover slightly to the passenger side from center. Car went
home on a rollback since I hoped it was something like a pump and likely
the internals might be OK. The flood was nice and red and had no burnt
scent from it. I should mention that the wagon has a huge plate style
cooler, (probabaly a quart cap.), and a 1-qt. extra capacity pan along
with a new (10-1/2" ?), mild upgraded convertor.
The transmission shop pulled the 727 out, removed the convertor and
pump - which appeared fine with no signs of damage or failure, replaced
the usual, expected seals, reinstalled everything and started the car
which instantly began pouring out fluid again. Looking behind the
convertor with an inspection mirror while still installed - it appeared as
if the convertor drive snout wasn't engaging the seal in the pump and
thereby allowing a massive leak. Out comes the 727 and the convertor was
replaced with a new stock-type convertor along with all of the previous
mentioned seals again just in case something was pinched or misaligned on
the first attempt. Upon restarting; no leaking is apparant. Testing it in
every gear by stalling it against the brakes after the fluid was up to
operating temp no leaks. Car is deemed fixed and I drove it five miles
home. I drove it home slowly in the rain because of bad wipers but
nothing seemed less than ok. Following day I decided to take a short spin
for a better assessment, started it, let it run for 4 or 5 minutes, no
leaks, no smells or smoke, and I started down the road. In less than 1
mile it has started pumping out the fluid again. Turned around, parked it,
check the dipstick which still shows some fluid at the very end of the
stick and I started making calls.
The drive hub or snout of the convertor shows to have perfect wear
pattern at 200 miles without any galling or scratches. If the bushing in
the front pump was bad, the evidence would show up here in that reguard
due to slop allowing less than concentric alignment. So we can probably
rule out, convertor, pump, and seals at this point. The dipstick is from
Lokar, I called their tech department and verified that the scale is
consistantly calibrated prior to manufacture to an original 727 tube and
stick as factory installed. They stated it was so, and assured me that if
seated against the case the indicated area will yield a correct level
reading. The FSM calls for 7-9 quarts on a stock panned 727. Adding a qt.
for the deep pan, a qt. for the huge cooler, that would bring the total up
to around 11 qts. Almost exactly the amount used to produce the correct
level shown on the verified Lokar dipstick. Hensley Racing when posed with
this problem suggests that the transmission is simply overfilled and the
excess is being spit out of the vent on the forward top portion of the
front pump. I agree that the vent is likely the source of the leak at
this time especially considering the location of the stream of the leak
compaired to the location of the vent hole. What doesn't make sense is why
the car made 200 miles prior to the problem with that amount of fluid and
now that the leak has started; nothing seems to stop it at the same given
quantity of fluid installed and level checked. One other question I've yet
to get an answer to is "Venting from where?" Is this hole in the pump
justl ike a hole for a breather in a valve cover, or is it plumbed/part
of, to a specific passage or circuit?
I contacted Turbo-Action tech dept. and told them what I'd been going
through and asked if this could be a valve-body related issue. They said
it was possible, but unlikely. I've used the full-manual reverse-pattern
Cheetah body in a number of cars, without any problems, ever, for decades.
The tech stated that the regulator valve may have stuck allowing pressure
to go unchecked in the high gear servo which would force the fluid out the
path of least resistance ( i.e. the vent or the dipstick tube). The Lokar
stick is seated pretty firmly in the tube I might add. The repair entails
removal of the valve body, removal of the regulator from the body, polish
with emory cloth until smooth activation and release is obtained and
reinstall. He again states that this condition is very rare to occur,
however. I surmise that since it has obviously happened at some time, and
since right now, it is the most logical explanation of the condition I'm
experiencing it's the best guess so far.....but wow it seems really
far-fetched. I'm attempting to contact Pat Blais to see if he has any
ideas on this as well, but I've yet to speak with him. Maybe someone here
has some info as to what is happening and how to address it; or somebody
else I should talk to? In all my years of Mopardom I've never seen or
heard of anything like this and neither had Hensley Racing. I am by no
means a transmission guy but one doesn't need to be with a 727. You simply
install it, fill it, and beat on it unmercifully till the end of time
without worry unless you install a transbrake and/or slicks.... at which
point you check on it, occassionally. Again, if anybody can shed some
light on this, I would be most thankful for your aid... just the
transfluid and the bags of oil-dry are approaching my fuel
costs......thanks, John Hammond
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