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Location: Parts Unknown |
What does it all mean ? 
 (DeSoto data tag.jpg)
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Expert
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Location: New Castle PA | Doc, that looks just like the 1957 DeSoto data tag. I've pretty much decoded it all for 1957. Go to my web site and take the link to decoding your cowl tag. The codes will certainly be different for 1958, especially for things like paint, but the "meaning" of each ought to be the same.
http://www.angelfire.com/de/petrus/index.html
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Location: Parts Unknown | Thanks, Ed.
I am working some l o n g hours right now, but will try and dig out my box of data tags to do some cross referencing.
I show a "2" below the "C" at bottom right. One thing very unusual on this car is the triad horn. I wonder if this is the coding for that ?
Somewhere in my old notes I have what I figured was the breakdown of the SEQ and SCH. I think I figured the Sequence number is just that, ... in my case number 117 of 474, but the three digit scheduling code is getting me confused with GM codes indicating which week of production rather than an actual date coded out like muscle era Mopars did.
I just gotta spend some more time reacquainting myself with this stuff !
Thanks again ! |
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Grenoble - France | My 2-cent contribution regarding SCH(eduled) 059 and SEQ(uence) 117. I would understand that like as 9th of May (1958), 117th car scheduled that day (as there is no serial number, that would be the only way to make the difference between the cars scheduled the same day, so that there was no mix between the trims, engines and options in the assembly line). |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Imp58Alpes - 2008-04-30 4:15 AM
My 2-cent contribution regarding SCH(eduled) 059 and SEQ(uence) 117. I would understand that like as 9th of May (1958), 117th car scheduled that day (as there is no serial number, that would be the only way to make the difference between the cars scheduled the same day, so that there was no mix between the trims, engines and options in the assembly line).
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This is driving me nuts because I had this all pinned in 1992, but a fading brain and all my notes being in boxes is making it all just out of reach in the "foggy depths" to recall with great certainty. This is also muddied by the fact that in figuring it all out evolved through a number of "theory" stages until certain verifications proved or disproved hunches. Now it all is a distant memory and I can't remember exactly what I figured out ! Gotta make time to dig out those notes !
IF the SCH is dated as you suggest above, them SOME cars are going to have a 4 digit code, ... say made on the 23rd of November. Anyone got a 4 digit SCH code car ?
I feel like I am re-inventing the wheel here !  |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 558
Location: Grenoble - France | If there is no car with 4 digits, perhaps it's the 059th day of production ? (just a guess, as there is only 365 days in a year, making 3 digits enough) ... then the question would be: "is there any DeSoto with the first digit being something else than 0, 1, 2 & 3?". 1957 DeSotos appear to have the same numbering (SCH and SEQ with 3 digits).
Edited by Imp58Alpes 2008-04-29 12:25 PM
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Expert
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Location: New Castle PA | Imp58Alpes, you might be right on with that guess. I have information on lots of 1957 DeSotos, and have never seen one with a digit other than 0, 1, 2, 3 as the first digit in the SCH. I know a car with SCH 095 and build date Feb 27, 1957, a car with SCH 103 and build date 3-20-1957 and one with SCH 133 and build date 4-25-1957. If not DIRECTLY indicative, it's certainly an indicator.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Ed, I don't know about "Soto's", but there is a HUGE difference in P/T information, and layout, for the 1957-1961 Dodges'
information.
To break the codes, one needs P/T plates, Broadcast Sheets, IBC card-copies, and actual-car data from several cars,
in order to decypher what a Route number, or tire-size, or differential ratio, or even convertible top-color or trim colors
might be, on any one parricular car.
Clive Reeve's 1959 Dodge has a unique option number-code (got it memorized!) "31-9", which is 'blank', on the B Sheets and
on the IBM card-copy. I keep telling him to write-down each/anything on his car, so that, by process-of-elimination, we
might be able to isolate that unique option item !
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Location: Parts Unknown | 57desoto - 2008-04-30 3:06 PM
Imp58Alpes, you might be right on with that guess. I have information on lots of 1957 DeSotos, and have never seen one with a digit other than 0, 1, 2, 3 as the first digit in the SCH. I know a car with SCH 095 and build date Feb 27, 1957, a car with SCH 103 and build date 3-20-1957 and one with SCH 133 and build date 4-25-1957. If not DIRECTLY indicative, it's certainly an indicator.
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Ed,
How are you determining the build dates for these cars ?
Of the above cars, car A says production started 22 Sept. if we count all days on the calender, ... Car B says 20 Sept. Car C says 13 Nov. If we discount weekends and holidays, production started even later ! I don't think I know what dates production began for 57 and 58 model years, but I know debut dates were usually in September, pushing production start up back into August.
Confused in Cornwallistan
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Grenoble - France | One additional confusing guess from me  : since SCH may indicate Scheduled date, it may not be exactly the built date, but just the day the car was scheduled (i.e. putting all the parameters together, planning the construction of the car), then built few days later ... I don't know what external suppliers supplied to Chrysler Corp, but a long delay between the schedule date and the built date could have been due to a rare option or a trouble in delivering a specific part to the assembly line ...
Trying to guess in Grenoblistan ...
Edited by Imp58Alpes 2008-04-30 7:23 AM
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Location: New Castle PA | Doc, I have the build dates on a number of cars in my 1957 DeSoto database from informatiion provided by Chrysler Historical via the build sheet. Neil, you're certainly right about the small details only being available from those build sheets. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | 57desoto - 2008-05-01 2:32 AM
Doc, I have the build dates on a number of cars in my 1957 DeSoto database from informatiion provided by Chrysler Historical via the build sheet. Neil, you're certainly right about the small details only being available from those build sheets.
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I see.
Well, at $45 a pop, I don't think my budget will allow ordering these up for all the tags I have in a box just to build a reference base ! 
I was hoping you'd explain some "magic" method written right there on the tag !
I had tags for a 57 NY'er and a 58 Fireflite in my office when we moved. I know they are somewhere close, but can't seem to lay hands on them now. The box of tags is buried deep in storage. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Well, Ed, as we both know, cracking the codes involves MORE than just having, even, the B-Sheets and the IBM cards!
We/you/Doc/whomever need to see the cars, that relate to those documents; for example; under the "TOPS&SPEAKERS"
box, there can be 5 or more numbers, referring to top colors and signal-seeking radios & rear speakers.
Merely seeing a "5" there doesn't tell you what the car had installed on it, at the factory; same with tire and gear ratio
coding.
In addition to the above, factory literature and brochures and Ross Roy Data Books can fill in some 'blanks' and/or
allow for educated guesses to be made, on/for the coding.
Here's a GOOD one for you: on the 1957 early-produced B-Sheets (9/56), there WASN'T a box specifically created to identify
the Super D500 option.
On the latter-ones (12/56), the factory removed an option-listing for something-else, and assigned that option-code for the Super D500 option.
I don't know how early-production Super-D's were ID.'ed on the B-Sheets; the IBM cards did I.D. them .
Nothing's easy or simple!
And, Oh, YEAH, when I was assembling a bunch of 1956-1961 B-Sheets, they were only $10.00-15.00 each
and the Chrysler Corporation would provide them to any serious researcher.
Edited by d500neil 2008-04-30 8:02 PM
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Hershey PA | As Ed can attest to (see his website) Desoto did not make it easy to figure out the data plate.
The Firesweeps had a different format than the other models. The location of the plate on the body was different between the sweep and the others. In 59 they even changed the location of the plates on the domes and flites during the model year. Later plates had more information than the earlier ones.
In general it appears that SCH or MO are production dates and would be a 4 digit number like 0430 meaning the car was made on April 30; this allows for cars made Oct-Dec to be marked like 1114 meaning the car was made on Nov 14
Years ago the National Desoto Club found a 1961 with a sequence number 3029 and a production date of Nov 30 (the last day of production). We thought we found the 6th last one made. When we tried to check it against other information, we found other 61 Desotos with similar sequence numbers. We were told that the 3029 should be interpreted as 30 for Desoto and 29 as the 29th Desoto being made that particular date. We interpret Seq as a daily production control and not the particular model count.
Good luck Dr Desoto
59 Explorer
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Location: Parts Unknown |
OK, ... a couple questions and comments.
Does anyone know the date 58 DeSotos went into production ?
Does anyone here own or know of a verifiable 57 or 58 with the Triad Horn option ? This is about the strangest option I know my car has had since new, but I can't really peg anything on my data tag that acknowledges this option. A second car might offer a clue ?
I have a fair amount of dealer specific paper stuff for 58 DeSoto, including salesman's pocket guide for models, pricing, and options. I also have the Ross Roy book. I will look them over and see if anything is revealed. If anyone has questions of comments, I will be happy to oblige.
One last thing. Anyone know what this came off of ? Nothing shows like it in any accessory paperwork I have seen. Can't find it in the parts book either.
 (DeSoto traff lt viewer.jpg)
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Location: New Castle PA | I have the triad horn option on my Adventurer. The build sheet for 1957 has a line item labelled "TRIAD HORN" so it should be a no-brainer for that question.
Edited by 57desoto 2008-05-01 5:35 AM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 558
Location: Grenoble - France | After searching for the meaning of "schedule" in my dictionary, wouldn't it be simply a kind of "plan of production", depending on the amount of orders the factory received : SCH 175 SEQ 450 = 175th production run, 450th car of that production run (as you can see on Ed's card, the VIN was added manually, probably after SCH and SEQ were given). Perhaps there was someone "planning" the production runs, depending on the amount of cars to be built, team shifts ... However, this explanation would remove any linkage between SCH and a calendar date. Do we know how production was managed back in the day ?
Just a guess ... |
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Location: Parts Unknown |
Gee Ed,
How did you manage to get such a nice, clearly legible card like that ? Mine looks like it was left out in the rain for a couple years !
So, ... is the "9" code under Triad Horn seen anywhere on that car's data tag, or was that option just not put on them ? How about other options relating to both the card and the tag ?
Thanks for sharing your resources !
B. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | THAT is a World-Class quality IBM card copy!!!!
Well, pretty-darn-good, anyway; the lettering along the bottom is not quite legible; that's why 'you' need to get a collection
of them, because the area-legibility WILL vary, from card-to-card.
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Location: Parts Unknown |
Alright, .... bear with me here. I found my file of correspondence with CHS and my build card. I suspect much more is known today than was when this transpired in 1997, so I have a file of letters back and forth asking questions and getting replies. I will just throw out what I have and let's see what we can figure out.
Going down the column ....
My car has bumper guards. Data tag reads "6", build card shows "6" under bumper guard column.
Below that, the next notation is a "9" under "crank air vent". The car does have a down breather off the valve cover. No "9" is shown on the data tag.
Next is a "3" under "mirror right". No "3" anywhere on the data tag, but in photos the car shows mirrors on both sides as found.
Next is undercoat with a "1". This also shows on the data tag, and believe me, the car was plastered with the stuff !
Next is "12" under "tires". Nothing on the data tag like that and no telling what came on the car after all these years unless I find early photos.
"Axle" shows a "3". CHS told me this meant 3.31 gears and this is what is in the car.
In the far bottom corner, I have a "602" showing through very blurry and illegible stuff.
Car was built 06 Jan. 1958 and looks to be shipped the same day.
Dealer number was 89041, but some confusion was being had by the CHS guy, as he said he could not decode "89041" as his book only went up to 62520, so I never got a dealer name, etc.
Incidentally, the "ST" in the top row on the data tags stands for "styling". What that translated to, the CHS guy could not tell me.
With a little better understanding of what I have in my hands than I did then, I will continue to look at all the data and see if anything else can be learned.
Anyone know what dealer 89041 was known as ? Region listed is "95". The verbal history I have is that the car originally came from Syracuse, NY.
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Expert
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Location: New Castle PA | I do not believe the 6 for the triad horn shows anywhere on the data tag. They can't show EVERY option there, certainly. Plus some items came within the accessory groups or glamour groups and they don't show individually. The nice clear data card is for my Adventurer -- just got lucky. I have a pretty good collection of them for other peoples' 1957 DeSotos, which is why I'm comfortable with many of the 1957 items I've mentioned and have on my web site. I also have all the words typed out in a WORD document if anyone wants it. These are the words that would be on any blank card before it was punched or stamped. I know that some folks don't have legible cards, and I thought that might help. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | 57desoto - 2008-05-03 2:22 AM
I do not believe the 6 for the triad horn shows anywhere on the data tag. They can't show EVERY option there, certainly. Plus some items came within the accessory groups or glamour groups and they don't show individually.
I also have all the words typed out in a WORD document if anyone wants it. These are the words that would be on any blank card before it was punched or stamped. I know that some folks don't have legible cards, and I thought that might help.
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I was surprised to see my card has a blank space for Triad. It was on the car when I got it, and given the overall "crusties" going on with the radiator support and the horns, it appears to have been there since day one !
I was working with Brandt Rosenbush there at CHS and I think I was wearing my welcome thin by asking 8000 questions and for better copy resolution. He sent 6 different copies, explaining they had some ancient microfilm viewer that when one area of the card was in focus, another would be fuzzy or illegible. Given your mostly legible copy, I was looking all mine over and trying to fill in blanks in the fuzzy areas. 57 is different that 58, but a number of things are the same, so a typed out blank might be of considerable help, .... thanks ! |
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Location: The Mile High City | OK, let's crack this code. I have to look at Ed's post. Here are our '58 DeSoto Firedome and Fireflite convertible tags all together:
 (Docs Tag.jpg)
 (Gidmans Tag.jpg)
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Location: The Mile High City | So, we need to make our own version of Ed's decoder. My car has the stone shields, so that explains that. Ed has done all the hard work so far. The one thing that puzzles me is the "ST" code. Ed notes that this is for the convertible top color in 1957, but that doesn't appear to hold through 1958. Doc and Gary do not have a number under ST, while I do. We all have the number 2 under "C", which I suspect may indicate a white convertible top for the 1958 models - which we all have.
The "CS" Color Sweep is a bit perplexing too, at least for 1958, in comparing our three cars.
Edited by Lancer Mike 2008-05-02 3:32 PM
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Location: Parts Unknown | OK, Mike, ..... let's look at your car, as it seems the oddball for paint and that "ST" code.
PPP paint is Holly Red and all three slots showing "P" indicates a solid red car. Obviously, the ragtop would not be painted, so it kind of defies logic that the first letter (which indicated upper body / roof) would show a paint color, but given that both Gidman's car and mine show this, it was done. But yours DOES indicate that the "mid section" (the color sweep) was a color matching the lower (main body) color, so it was coded as a factory monotone Holly red car. This leads me to wonder if it was built without the lower stainless trim, or if a "1" code possibly meant it got the trim, but no color, and yet another number under "ST" might indicate only the top line of stainless ????
This coding of your is unusual, and *might* explain why they saw fit to give you a "1" under ST, which CHS defined as "styling". I really have no clue at this point what "styling" meant, but given the solid red paint code, it might have been an over-ride or delete code for solid color on a convertible? I know Fireflite convertibles came standard with two-tone colorsweep paint, but did Firedome ragtops as well ? I know for a fact that on Sweeps the colorsweep was an added cost item.
Note that my tag shows nothing under "TR", while both the Firedomes show a "3". This is because Fireflite came standard with Torqueflite, while it was an added cost option on Firedome. Extending the logic, the typical colorsweep / two tone found and coded on both mine and Gidman's car warrants no special notation, while you have a one tone paint code and this odd code under "ST".
Is there a connection ? I do not know. I can only speculate at this time. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 452
Location: Southern California | www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=9717&start=1&posts=15 - 45k -Check out the thread on Joaqim's Windsor. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Gidman - 2008-05-04 10:11 AM
www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=9717&start=1&posts=15 - 45k -Check out the thread on Joaqim's Windsor.
Link doesn't work. What folder is it in ?
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Poznan, Poland, Europe | For me it works, just needs dropping the "-45k- " part http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=9717&s... |
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Location: The Mile High City | I sent an e-mail to the historical society. I gave them my address and they said they would check to make sure the information for my car is available. They said their records are not 100% complete. Once they get back to me, I should be able to get my build sheet - then I can post it here! |
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Location: The Mile High City | I haven't heard anything from the historical society for a few days. I think I will just send them a check and see what happens. I copied a photograph of the 1958 EFI Adventurer convertible from the web page. I can't read it very well, but I can see that it has the solid paint code like mine as, I hope, VVV (adventurer gold) - but it looks like KKK (smoke gray) - can't be.
Under schedule 048?
Sequence 541?
Body 495?
ST 1?
PNT KKK????
TRM 641?
PS 3?
AH 5?
PW 4?
BG 6?
C 2? - hard to read
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EFI Adventurer Tag.jpg (7KB - 830 downloads)
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Paint code looks to me to be XXX .
I wonder if the P/T plate contains the mythological "Fuelie" coding????
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Location: The Mile High City | Could be XXX, that would make more sense. But that would still be quite a scandal! You would think that if SPL was ever used, the EFI would be a good case for it, but I can't see anything stamped under SPL. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | For the 1958 Dodges, Greg Leggatt & I have a theory (as yet un-confirmed, for OBVIOUS reasons!) where/how
the Fuelie-engine status should be confirmed, on the P/T plate.
Dodge's P/T plates are completely different from the other marques' plates, so I wouldn't know where to look for that info,
on a Soto.
BTW, on/for the Dodges, the Fuel Injection nameplate (which is rumored to be the SAME item, on all-but the 300's---which
had "Fuel Injection" be embossed into the "300" cloisonne emblems---)....was supposed to have been installed at the end of
the shortened-for-1958 quarter panel side molding. But, it could as-easily have been placed onto the fenders, instead.
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Location: Parts Unknown | d500neil - 2008-05-17 2:12 PM
BTW, on/for the Dodges, the Fuel Injection nameplate (which is rumored to be the SAME item, on all-but the 300's---which
had "Fuel Injection" be embossed into the "300" cloisonne emblems---)....was supposed to have been installed at the end of
the shortened-for-1958 quarter panel side molding. But, it could as-easily have been placed onto the fenders, instead.
*********************************
DeSoto had a gold and white F/I coupe that they paraded about the show circuit in 1958. I have a number of photos of it. I would be surprised if the other makes did not do exactly the same as it was their "primo" option that year. If so, are there not photos showing tag placement for Dodge and Plymouth ?
There was a small box of parts in the trunk of my DeSoto when I got it. In the bottom was the stylized chrome "X" that makes the background for the letters reading "FUEL INJECTION". The previous owner had no idea what it was or how it got there, but somewhere in the car's history, someone crossed paths with a F/I car and part of an emblem ended up in the trunk ! |
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Location: The Mile High City | Geez, it's like the Holy Grail of MoPar emblems! So that is a two-piece emblem? Even a part of one must be very valuable!
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Location: Parts Unknown | Yeah, ... I suppose ...
I knew what it was the moment I saw it, but since I had never seen one on person or up close, I really had no idea what the letters really looked like. It is in very good shape considering it looks used, but what the hey ? I am more puzzled by how it came to be in that car ? |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Notice, too, the very clever way that that emblem depicts raw (bubbly) fuel entering into the "X-chamber/injector"
and emerging as :"INJECTION" !!!!
Slick......!
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Location: The Mile High City | Hi, Doc:
I just looked in the membership directory and there is a fellow named Allen Faltus who owns a 1958 Firedome convertible in Ellensville, Washington - your neck of the woods. Do you know Faltus or know about his car? Maybe we can get a picture of his data plate. Also, Nick Nichols owns an 1958 Adventurer coupe...that guy has everything! I have seen pictures of his Regal Lancer. I'll e-mail Nick and see if he has a photo of his DeSoto data plate. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | I know OF Allen Faltus. If memory serves, his family owned an oldtime car dealership there in E-burg. Last time I heard news surrounding his name he was selling a very original 57 Adventurer (within the last few years). I will see what I can do to look him up. When was working "Federales", I was through E-burg twice a week. Now it is more like twice a year. |
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Southern California | Hi Doc and Mike
Allen is also a member of the NDC. He also owns 56 and 57 Fireflites. I am going to e mail him and maybe he can post a tag. |
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Location: The Mile High City | So if Faltus still owns his, that makes three '58 Firedome convertibles in the United States that I am aware of. I am aware of only one Fireflite convertible (Doc's) and one Adventurer convertible (White's). Knowing that I do not know all, for every one I know of, there are probably a dozen or more out there I don't know of.
For the '58 Firesweep convertibles, I know Mackner found one, I saw one at Barrett-Jackson that sold in the U.S.A., and I think there was a white and pewter-colored one in California that sold on eBay not long ago. Don't know whether that stayed in the states. It seems like there was one more too.
I bet the Scandinavian countries have as many, if not more, DeSoto convertibles as the states do now.
Edited by Lancer Mike 2008-05-22 11:21 PM
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Location: Parts Unknown |
Here's where I am showing how out of touch I am. Back in the day, Tim ***an out of Ft. Wayne, Indiana was a serious 58 DeSoto guy. At the time (late 80's-early 90's) he owned a nice Sweep ragtop, and at least one each of the Dome and Flite ragtops in rough shape as well. I have no idea if he still has those cars or not. There was a rough beige and white Flite in Missouri too. I know there were others, but just can't remember off the top of my head. My old NDC directories are boxed away, but back when I was hunting parts for my Adventurer project I contacted ANYONE known to have a convertible and chased many leads as well.
I have known of a number of Sweeps, but really consider them a separate car. Besides rear body and interior, they really are a Dodge and share little in common with the big cars.
There was a white/red one running around in Shelton years ago. An all-white/no color sweep one showed up for sale on a trailer at the NDC National meet in Sacto. in 92 (?). Carjock pulled one off a farm just a few miles from where I live now - it was also white / red. I bought yet another white/red one out of Ohio and later sold it to Bo Malefors. In fact, I was just looking at the paperwork for that car the other day.
Given how active guys like Bo were in hunting down exotic FL cars and pipelining them to Nordic countries, I would agree that most of the known cars are outside the U.S. today. But like you say, for all the known cars, how many remain hidden in fields, barns, and garages ? How many people knew of your car hiding up at Grand Lake a year ago ? There are bound to be a *few* left out there to be found. |
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Location: The Mile High City | Doc, that is interesting; as a life-long Denverite, I figured I would have seen my car around before I did. I had heard of it, but figured it was long gone. Turns out it was here all along. It makes you wonder what is hidden in your own neighborhood somewhere. I can't even imagine how many are hidden in California! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 452
Location: Southern California | Look at Ebay, item #120264642785. A dealers book on the 58 Desotos, featuring fabric samples, paint samples, a great list of accessories...might answer a lot of these option questions.
Wow, what a book, price is going skyward. |
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Location: The Mile High City | Hi, Gary:
I saw it! Wow! I would love to have that! But I bet someone would love to have it more than me!  |
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Expert
Posts: 1819
Location: Vancouver, BC | Doctor DeSoto - 2008-05-03 1:05 AM
OK, Mike, ..... let's look at your car, as it seems the oddball for paint and that "ST" code.
PPP paint is Holly Red and all three slots showing "P" indicates a solid red car. Obviously, the ragtop would not be painted, so it kind of defies logic that the first letter (which indicated upper body / roof) would show a paint color, but given that both Gidman's car and mine show this, it was done. But yours DOES indicate that the "mid section" (the color sweep) was a color matching the lower (main body) color, so it was coded as a factory monotone Holly red car. This leads me to wonder if it was built without the lower stainless trim, or if a "1" code possibly meant it got the trim, but no color, and yet another number under "ST" might indicate only the top line of stainless ????
This coding of your is unusual, and *might* explain why they saw fit to give you a "1" under ST, which CHS defined as "styling". I really have no clue at this point what "styling" meant, but given the solid red paint code, it might have been an over-ride or delete code for solid color on a convertible? I know Fireflite convertibles came standard with two-tone colorsweep paint, but did Firedome ragtops as well ? I know for a fact that on Sweeps the colorsweep was an added cost item.
Note that my tag shows nothing under "TR", while both the Firedomes show a "3". This is because Fireflite came standard with Torqueflite, while it was an added cost option on Firedome. Extending the logic, the typical colorsweep / two tone found and coded on both mine and Gidman's car warrants no special notation, while you have a one tone paint code and this odd code under "ST".
Is there a connection ? I do not know. I can only speculate at this time.
"ST" is "Style", and it referred to the style of the paint scheme on the car. The single digit for the "Style" was used from 1957 when Mopar adopted single letter codes for the colours and used them right through to the end of the single digit paint codes at the end of the 1968 model year. The Style digit really came into use when the three letter paint codes were replaced with a two letter plus number system for 1960 (1959 for Dodge). At that time the Style number became the third digit in the paint code.
All convertibles from 1957 through 1968 had a roof paint code that was the same as the main body colour. Easier than coming up with something to denote the car had no roof, painted or otherwise. The colour of the folding roof was placed elsewhere on the body tag.
Not sure of the Style codes for the 1957-59 era, except for "1" which meant monotone for the complete 1957-68 era. In almost all years "2" was the basic roof/body two-tone (Dodge had some variations).
The following decodes the paint codes for 1957-59 Plymouth, DeSoto, Chrysler and Imperial 2-tones :
ABC = A - Upper (roof) colour. B - Lower (body) colour, C - Sweep/insert colour
(Thus a 1958 car with a white, black lower body colour and black sweep/insert - XBB. And Style "2" two-tone.)
1957-59 Dodge was a bit different as the fins were emphasized by trim on the body :
ABB = A - Roof and fins colour, B - Lower body and sweep/insert colour
ABC = A - Roof and fins colour, B - Sweep/insert colour, C - Lower body colour
For 1959 Dodge adopted the alpha-alpha-numeric system -
AB1 where "A" is the contrast colour and "B" the main body colour -
1 - Monotone style (AA1)
2 - A - Fins in contrast colour
3 - A - Fins and lower insert colour
4 - A - Roof, fins and lower insert colour
And from 1960 through 1962 the contrasting colour included such things as the roof, roof cantilever, saddle, and sweep insert. The numbers varies from make to make and year to year, with only "1" (monotone) and "2" (roof / body two-tone) being consistant. For 1963 and 1964 an additional letter was added under "PNT" to denote the side sweep insert colour.
As a side note, Chrysler of Canada did not adopt single letter paint codes until 1958 with the 1958-59 layout being the same (including Dodge) as on the 1957-59 DeSoto. They went to the two digit system for 1960, but did not use the third digit to denote paint style until the 1966 model year.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Bill, 1957 Dodge paint scheme coding was different from 1958 paint coding.
On the Paint/Trim plate, where the top-color was encoded, a "1" denoted a black top, a "2" was a white top, "3" on Dodges was green and "4" was blue.
Undercoating was "1", too, so you might check the P/T plate (or the Broadcast Sheet, or the factory's IBM card copy) for the top color encoding, and maybe for undercoating.
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Location: Parts Unknown | "Dodges, .... we don't need no stinkin' Dodges !"
What are you guys talking about Dodges for ? This is a DeSoto thread ! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 452
Location: Southern California | LOL!!
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | But, but, but..BILL started it ....! |
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Location: Parts Unknown | d500neil - 2008-05-27 2:08 PM
But, but, but..BILL started it ....!
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I don't care who started it, Private Pyle.
Now, both of you, drop and give me 50. |
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Location: The Mile High City | Got some very interesting information from Nick Nichols' '58 Adventurer:
My data plate is quite rusty as you can see from the photo. The photo here is also blurry. I did manage to get some numbers off of it. They are as follows:
Under schedule: 039
Sequence: 253
Body: 492
Pnt: VXV
Trm: 647
PS: ?
AH: 5
PW: 4?
BG: 7?
C: ?
Not sure what all these codes mean but that is what is on there as best as I can make out. Hope it helps you. The Adventurer is only missing the original spinner hubcaps. I have some '58 Chrysler hubcaps on there now. take care, Nick.
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Location: Parts Unknown | Lancer Mike - 2008-05-29 8:49 AM
Got some very interesting information from Nick Nichols' '58 Adventurer:
My data plate is quite rusty as you can see from the photo. The photo here is also blurry. I did manage to get some numbers off of it. They are as follows:
Under schedule: 039 Have we figured this out yet ? 39th day of production ?
Sequence: 253 Ditto above ... 253rd car built that day ?
Body: 492 4=DeSoto 9=Adventurer 2=2HT
Pnt: VXV Gold roof, white body, gold sweep
Trm: 647 Code for Adv, coupe interior
PS: ? Power seat. Is there a number stamped here ?
AH: 5 Standard heater
PW: 4? Power windows Seems this should not be marked on Adv unless windows are manual, as PW was standard equip.
BG: 7? Bumper guards
C: ? A lot of these show "2", ... do we know what that means ?
Not sure what all these codes mean but that is what is on there as best as I can make out. Hope it helps you. The Adventurer is only missing the original spinner hubcaps. I have some '58 Chrysler hubcaps on there now. take care, Nick.
*******************************
See inserted notes above. If I am incorrect on any, please say so !
The photo shows what looks like a front bumper with no bumper guards. The data tag says it was built with them.
It is interesting to note the marks for PS and PW. Both were standard fare on Adventurers. Are both these manual and these codes mean "delete" ? If they are there, it is oddly redundant to notate on the data tag. Hmmm .....
I have a set of Adventurer spinners saved for possible use on the Fireflite. They are a really good looking wheelcover. I just can't get too excited over the standard covers ... a little "conservative". Now just to figure out how to get them to fit 15" wheels ! |
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Location: The Mile High City | The bumper guards threw me off too. Here's a question: on Nick's Adventurer and my Firedome, the ignition key bezel looks like it came right off my Dodge - the bezel looks mismatched compared to the other bezels on the instrument cluster. Is that the way it is, or do I have the wrong bezel? |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Lancer Mike - 2008-05-29 8:09 PM
The bumper guards threw me off too. Here's a question: on Nick's Adventurer and my Firedome, the ignition key bezel looks like it came right off my Dodge - the bezel looks mismatched compared to the other bezels on the instrument cluster. Is that the way it is, or do I have the wrong bezel?
*************************************
Keeping on this de-code theme, .... I am really curious if Nick's car has PB and PW delete, or if they are present as standard equipment, but got a data tag notation anyway. Do you know ?
On the ignition key bezel, .... there is a "more correct" bezel that matches the rest. However, I have seen a lot of 58 DeSotos equipped with that flat unit over the years. Don't know if it is replacement / aftermarket, or just from a different supplier. It certainly doesn't match !
I am really reaching into the foggy depths to try and remember, .... but it seems to me the flat type you have is actually a "nut" that threads onto a male part of the switch that is stuck through the hole in the dash. The other type has a male threaded part on the "bezel" that pokes through the dash and into a female threaded part on the switch.
My car has the more "matching" switch bezel (if you can see it through all the wires hung over the steering wheel).
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Well, your car is undeniably well HUNG, Brent.
Whatsup with the speedo? |
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Location: Parts Unknown |
Back when these cars (and parts) were more plentiful, I grabbed up anything I came onto that was interesting in hopes of "someday". Since I was essentially building a car from scratch, I was hunting any and all options / equipment to hang on it ! I believe this speedo is the one that came with the pile of rust that was my Adventurer. It is a 150 mph job with the letters on the "glass" that read "police certified". I have seen this on other makes of the period, but this is the only DeSoto speedo I have seen like this. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 452
Location: Southern California | Is the traffic light reflector the one you posted a close up of earlier with the forwardlook logo on it? Very interesting to see that on an Adventurer. aftermarket? Do you know when Adventurer stopped with the steering wheel clock? |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Gidman - 2008-05-30 9:15 PM
Is the traffic light reflector the one you posted a close up of earlier with the forwardlook logo on it? Very interesting to see that on an Adventurer. aftermarket? Do you know when Adventurer stopped with the steering wheel clock?
****************************
The above photo is of my Fireflite as it sits now. Yes, the traffic light viewer is the same one with the Forward Look emblem on it. While it is not marked besides the FL emblem, it looks just like many that are found with GM's "Guide" marking. The purpose of such viewers was to enable drivers to see traffic lights when they were hung on the close side of the intersection, especially for cars with sunvisors. A car in the "pole position" would be directly under the light and the driver would have to lay their head on the dash to see it. Such lights are non-existant anymore, but in the day ....
I know the viewer is probably a very unlikely thing to find on a car like mine, but as 50's gadgets go, they are just about the coolest ! With the top up, it actually serves its function very well.
The Benrus sterring wheel watch is a stock option for 57-58. In the 1980's a clock company had hundreds of them for sale for dirt cheap, still in the aluminum case. The trick was finding the mounting bezel. In 59, the steering wheel took on a whole different look and the watch was dropped. |
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Location: The Mile High City | Wow! All the goodies - police certified speedo, traffic light viewer, and self-winding benrus clock! Very nice. I thought I had seen pictures in the forum recently of another police certified speedometer - on a rough-looking two door hardtop. I could swear the non-matching bezel is the exact same as my '58 Dodge ignition bezel.
I will send another e-mail to Nick tomorrow - he should be able to say right away whether his car has power windows and a power seat. I sent an e-mail to Alan Faltus, but there was no reply. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Lancer Mike - 2008-06-03 9:39 PM
Wow! All the goodies - police certified speedo, traffic light viewer, and self-winding benrus clock! Very nice. I thought I had seen pictures in the forum recently of another police certified speedometer - on a rough-looking two door hardtop. I could swear the non-matching bezel is the exact same as my '58 Dodge ignition bezel.
I will send another e-mail to Nick tomorrow - he should be able to say right away whether his car has power windows and a power seat. I sent an e-mail to Alan Faltus, but there was no reply.
*********************************
As I said before, I cannot say where that non-matching bezel comes from, but a lot of these cars have that type, and it is not just the bezel that is different ... the whole switch threading is reversed from male-female to female-male .... you have to change the whole switch to get the other bezel. Aftermarket ? Alternate supplier ????
Let me know if you get a hold of Mr. Faltus. He lives about 2-3 hours west of me, but I get through there on occasion, iffens mebbe we need to "check it out" |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Mike, what you recall seeing is John Fowlie's 59 Dodge CHP patrol car, with its Police Certified speedometer.
(We don't need ANY.... [as they actually said, in "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre"!]..... stinking Badges---I mean: Dodges!!!)
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Location: Parts Unknown | Lancer Mike - 2008-06-03 9:39 PM
Wow! All the goodies - police certified speedo, traffic light viewer, and self-winding benrus clock! Very nice. QUOTE]
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Vehr nahce ! High-five !
I saved stuff for years to make my Adventurer complete (it was a stripped wrecking yard hulk ). When I sold that car to get the Fireflite, I kept most of the goodies and put them on the new car. From the parts pile I added PW, PS, Solex, the above mentioned items and probably a thing or two I can't remember now.
I just found some pix of a 57 Dome I passed on in Pennsylvania (it was super rusty ) that was the antithesis of my convertible. It had the ragtop, but beyond that was the most absolute stripper DeSoto built. Monotone paint, no sweep, rubber floor mats, 3-speed manual, dog dishies, and block off plates everywhere on the dash. It would have been a real job to save, but what a cool car !!!! Wish I had bought it now ! |
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Location: The Mile High City | Yesterday I received my IBM card from Chrysler along with their decoding letter and production numbers. There weren't any big surprises - it was fun to see the dealership that sold the car. I think we could learn more from the dealer order book that was on eBay recently. I asked the seller if he could photograph each page for me (I said I would pay him) - but no luck.
Alan Faltus send a reply. He still owns his Firedome convertible and he said he would send some photos!
No reply from Nick Nichols yet.
Edited by Lancer Mike 2008-06-04 5:47 PM
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Location: Parts Unknown | That is great stuff, Mike.
It looks like I need to send ANOTHER forty-five bucks to CHS and get that accompanying sheet with the goods spelled out. Back when I did mine, all they sent you was a very crappy Xerox of the computer card. Nothing else. You were on your own to figure it all out.
Did you notice how much time elapsed from the build date to the ship date ? Three months ! My car was built and shipped the same day. Wonder what was going on ? As I recall, Ma Mopar had more than one major labor dispute during the 58 model year. Related ? |
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Expert
Posts: 1819
Location: Vancouver, BC | Doctor DeSoto - 2008-06-04 6:04 PM
That is great stuff, Mike.
It looks like I need to send ANOTHER forty-five bucks to CHS and get that accompanying sheet with the goods spelled out. Back when I did mine, all they sent you was a very crappy Xerox of the computer card. Nothing else. You were on your own to figure it all out.
Did you notice how much time elapsed from the build date to the ship date ? Three months ! My car was built and shipped the same day. Wonder what was going on ? As I recall, Ma Mopar had more than one major labor dispute during the 58 model year. Related ?
A car shipped within days of assembly meant the car was ordered by the dealer, either to have on hand to show prospective customers, or for an order placed by a customer. A car that was built and sat around on a Chrysler factory lot usually meant it was built to have on hand in case dealers were in need of a car ASAP. In this way Chrysler could also keep the assembly line running at steady pace.
No labour problems, as such, in 1958 for Chrysler. The 1959 model year would be another story, with the UAW stopping production with small strikes during the year and a big PPG strike resulting in the loss of production due to a lack of windshields. That strike would result in Chrysler converting the former DeSoto stamping plant on McGraw Avenue to glass production.
The big problem in 1958 was plunging sales. For the 1957 model year, DeSoto built 117,514 cars. That dropped to 49,445 for 1958 - a loss of 57.9%. Thus DeSoto, actually all North American manufacturers save AMC, cut back on production not due to labour strife, but lack of people willing to plunk their hard earned cash on a new car. Remember, 1958 was a recession year. At the end of the 1958 model year Chrysler shifted production of the DeSoto from Wyoming Avenue to the Chrysler plant on Jefferson Avenue. That move plus the new coporate engines resulted in the closure of the DeSoto engine and body plants on Warren Avenue. Most of that plant was converted to Imperial assembly for 1959-61. The Wyoming plant would be used for CKD export production after 1960. The third plant, on McGraw Avenue, is described above.
The "export" cars for 1958 are actually Canadian-built 1958 DeSoto Firedome models, complete with 354 poly V8 engines and Torqueflite transmissions. No DeSotos were built in Canada for 1957 to free up production space for the new 1957 models. 1956 was a banner year for Chrysler in Canada and they were expecting big things for the completely new 1957 models. Instead Chrysler of Canada imported Firedome and Fireflite models from Detroit - they imported Fireflite models in 1958. Sadly, the much anticipated sales swell for 1957 did not occur.
Total 1956 production came to 999,516 in the U.S. and 105,567 in Canada.
Total 1957 production came to 1,215,710 in the U.S. and 77,708 in Canada.
Total 1958 production came to 667,590 in the U.S. and 42,555 in Canada.
The Canadian results support the theory that the poor quality of the 1957 models was due to the rush to get the cars into production, and not poor assembly due to the rush to get them built. Canadian 1957 models were just as poorly put together as the American originals. A drop of 26.4% resulted in slower assembly lines and more time to get the parts together.
The 1958 DeSoto results were so bad, followed by a small rebound for 1959, DeSoto Division was amalgamated with Plymouth Division in the U.S. to form the Plymouth-DeSoto Division. In Canada the increase was even smaller and the Dodge-DeSoto and Plymouth-Chrysler-Fargo divisions were disbanded altogether, although they existed on paper through to the end of the 1960 model year.
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Location: The Mile High City | Thanks, Bill -
Your posts are always well worth the read! My build sheet information, including the production figures for 1957 and 1958 are evidence of how big a bite that recession took. As you show with all of the drastic actions Chrysler took following that year, 1958 eventually caused the doom of DeSoto. It is funny how with the build sheet of one car, you can get a glimpse of the whole big picture. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | ....82 1958 Adventurer convertibles produced; 300 in 1957 .
Mike, you see how the Dealer Code was hand-written onto the card, when it finally got shipped-out?
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Location: The Mile High City | d500neil - 2008-06-05 4:52 PM
Mike, you see how the Dealer Code was hand-written onto the card, when it finally got shipped-out?
Yep. I am glad that the copy is legible. It sounds like Doc's was not. All-in-all though, I wish I could tell a bit more about my car for my $45. The information they gave is great, but not complete. I really wish the guy who owned the '58 Dealer Showroom Guide would have taken pictures of every page for me. I bet that would have filled in a lot of the blanks.
One thing that puzzles me now is the TRM code - I though it might be for the interior color codes, but Gidman and I have the same code. But I would think his interior would be black and white, where mine is red and gray. I think that book may provide the answer, but $1,200 was too much to scratch that itch. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Mike : stupid-question #1: are you certain that both cars have the same TRM codes?
Ditto: #2: are you certain that both cars have the correct OEM-type interiors in them (with the same TRM-coding)?
imho : red & "gray" doesn't sound like an OEM combination; one of the cars has an incorrect interior, it would appear, unless there may
have been a factory screw-up, somewhere (like THAT would ever happen!!)....LOL
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 452
Location: Southern California | My dad had the interior redone in 1966-67. It is now a red/gray combination, but I am almost certain it is not to original. Funny, I cannot remember what it looked like when new, but I seem to have a foggy notion of fabric with vinyl. Is that possible? I'd like to know what the original colors might have been. Maybe I can dig up some photos from the brothers. We definitely have the same trim code, 736.
Edited by Gidman 2008-06-06 12:00 AM
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Location: The Mile High City | d500neil - 2008-06-05 5:16 PM
Mike : stupid-question #1: are you certain that both cars have the same TRM codes?
Ditto: #2: are you certain that both cars have the correct OEM-type interiors in them (with the same TRM-coding)?
imho : red & "gray" doesn't sound like an OEM combination; one of the cars has an incorrect interior, it would appear, unless there may
have been a factory screw-up, somewhere (like THAT would ever happen!!)....LOL
Neil, I know your on-line persona well enough to know that you NEVER ask a stupid question! If you look at page one of this thread, you can see our data tags one-atop the other. Both Gidman and I are coded 736 under TRM, verified. I did look on Petrus' site and, at least in 1957, red and gray vinyl was a trim code for the Firedome convertibles (different TRM code numbers). I haven't seen pictures of Gary's interior, but I would say that it would be very, very unlikely that his car would have a red and gray vinyl interior. My car was restored, and I believe the interior was redone, but the red heat sealed vinyl on the doors and seat backs looks original. I know it is tough to get that heat sealed vinyl and most folks that redid the interiors just went to a tuck-n-roll instead of trying to get the real stuff. My car might be the most likely candidate for the one with a incorrect interior. There is just no way that a screw-up would happen at the Chrysler Corporation!
That is where photographs of the pages of that dealer book would have been really nice. If you look at the eBay photos of the pages, one of them is almost legible and it shows interior color and fabric combinations and shows numbers! Dollars to doughnuts those numbers would help crack the 1958 DeSoto data tag codes. |
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Location: The Mile High City | Ok, so going all the way back to the SCH discussion, it looks like Doc's 059 equates to 06 Jan., 1958 and my 049 equates to 05 Dec., 1957. So they had nine other schedule production runs (050, 051, 052, 053, 054, 055, 056, 057, and 058) within those 31 days. That probably tells us that the SCH number factors in time off (weekends, holidays, or both). If that is the case, there should not be SCH numbers that even approach 365 or 261, for that matter (year-round production - 52 weekends times two weekend days).
I would guess that they probably started production in early November and stopped around August to retool for the next model year. That would cut out another two and a half months at least. That might be another 55 weekdays or so? Using that (most likely flawed) logic, you might expect the SCH numbers to top out around 205 to 210?
Just you watch, someone will show their '58 Fireflite data tag with a SCH of 542 and all of that blather is out the window.
So far, Gidman's is 018 and Nichols' is 039 - you would expect both of those to be well before 05 Dec. 1957. Hmm - this math isn't working. There are only 30 days in November and there are probably four weekends and Thanksgiving. I don't know if they had Armastice Day off or an extra for the Friday after Thanksgiving (probably not), but that leaves maybe 21 days for production. Do you think they might have started runs in late September? Maybe - I guess you gotta have 'em on the showroom floor in November right?
Edited by Lancer Mike 2008-06-06 12:48 AM
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Location: The Mile High City | Hey, Doc: mine was built on a Thursday, yours was built on a Monday! |
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Location: Parts Unknown | I have a big fat file of dealer lit and stuff related to 57-58 DeSoto. Not the stuff buyers or prospects got, but stuff for the sales staff. I have spent considerable time looking for it since this discussion came up, but to no avail. The dealer magazine was caller DeSoto Retailer (or something like that) and several issues highlight the unveiling of the 58's and give dates. I think you are WAY off with November. Typically, August was the switchover time and dealer debuts were held in September. I wish I could lay hands on that paperwork to nail down actual dates !
I suspect the SCH code was for the given day of scheduled production. By the time my Coronets were built (1966) they just gave the straight day and month and there is no confusion.
If we count backwards from my SCH code of 059 to your 049 in terms of actual working days (and let's not assume they sheduled ALL work days in between), maybe we can confirm a pattern and count all the way back to the start of production ?
As time allows I will keep looking for my paper stuff. I have a Ross Roy book for 58 in the pile too. I think that detailed what interior options were offered with each model, but I do not recall any of the ordering codes being present. |
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Expert
Posts: 1819
Location: Vancouver, BC | 1957 production began the last week of September, 1956 and the cars introduced to the public on October 30, 1956. (Remember, these models were approved for production in mid-1954 - rather late for 1957. Thus the late dates for production.)
1958 model production began early September, 1957, and introduced on November 1, 1957.
1959 production again began in September with introduction on October 10, 1958 for Dodge, October 16, 1958 for Plymouth and October 24, 1948 for DeSoto, Chrysler and Imperial.
It was not until the 1961 model year that Chrysler got back to "normal" - production begins in early August with intros around the 1st of October.
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Location: Parts Unknown |
"1958 model production began early September, 1957, and introduced on November 1, 1957."
I would need an old calender to count backward here ...
If 05 December 1957 was SCH date 049, we could nail down the start of production pretty well, by counting back 49 working days.
Likewise, it appears that only ten working days occurred between 05 December and 06 January, as my car is coded 059, ... OR (as has been suggested) the SCH date was just that (a SCHEDULED date) and not dead-on exact, and perhaps my car was scheduled to be built ten working days after Mike's, but with the holidays and all, ended up being built after the new year rollover ?
I seem to recall that November 1st debut date, now that you mention it.
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Location: The Mile High City | Here is a 1957 calendar http://home.comcast.net/~s.astorino/Calendars/1957_Calendar.htm To me, the number of days between my build and yours indicates to me that is was a schedule and not an exact date. Also, take a look at this picture from the Dealer book on eBay. It seems to show codes for different interior combinations.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | YEP; and THERE'S your interior coding! (which, unfortunately, means nada to me; but, there they ARE)!
Seeing/finding info like this is critical to the breaking of the P/T plate/B-Sheet/IBM-card coding.
And, Mike: I was too LAZY to go back and find the interior codes!.....
But I knew that if they were the same code, that one of the cars had to have had its interior be
changed-out.
Edited by d500neil 2008-06-06 5:29 PM
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Location: The Mile High City | I was able to get in contact with a fellow named Bob from Queensland Australia (sounds familiar). He is the one who bought the book. He seems like a friendly enough fella and he might help us out by sharing some of this information! |
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Location: The Mile High City | Doc, the trouble with counting days backward between our build dates is that they encompass the Christmas and New Year holidays. Who knows how long the plant was shut down for those? Maybe by that time, the board had figured out what was happening with sales and decided to let everyone have a nice long break to cut costs. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Lancer Mike - 2008-06-07 8:48 PM
Doc, the trouble with counting days backward between our build dates is that they encompass the Christmas and New Year holidays. Who knows how long the plant was shut down for those? Maybe by that time, the board had figured out what was happening with sales and decided to let everyone have a nice long break to cut costs.
******************************
I agree. It won't be a hard science, but it could be a starting point to either confirm or modify as tidbits are gleened. I would also agree that by early December of 57 that lagging sales would have become apparent and production may have been curtailed by management. I would suspect this info would be documented somewhere in Chrysler's history. I wonder how you could confirm what days were production days ?
This has been a fun thread. I am getting more and more excited to work on the DeSoto ! |
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Location: The Mile High City | This page was shown on a recent eBay auction. Brent, it looks like your data tag shows a TRM code of "741". Although difficult to read, this pages shows the trim codes for 1958 Fireflite convertibles. I think the page lists "641" for the blue cloth and gray vinyl bolster. This is one of the color combinations for Brent's XCX paint scheme.
Also, Bob Hamilton sent me this swatch for TRM code "736" which matches my interior and should match Gary's interior too.
It is interesting that we found an exact match for 736. I wonder if we are not seeing a page that has an exact match for 741?
 (Desoto Colors and Fabrics Book 8.jpg)
 (1958 DeSoto TRM 736 reduced.jpg)
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Desoto Colors and Fabrics Book 8.jpg (102KB - 710 downloads)
1958 DeSoto TRM 736 reduced.jpg (206KB - 635 downloads)
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Location: Parts Unknown | I may have to go uncover my seats and see what the master destroyer left behind. They have been covered in a lovely grey corduroy since I got it. Since the interior is the last thing to get done ...... let's just say, I haven't got there yet !
Could 741 mean all vinyl (no cloth?). |
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Location: Parts Unknown | How refreshing it is to be talking 58 DeSoto again !
I just checked the photo I took of the data tag and it definitely reads " 741 ".
Mike, is your car all vinyl, or does it have cloth inserts ? That might explain the "7" if yours is all vinyl.
Bill could probably give full details from his master archive. One thing I am sorely lacking on is the big showroom books with all the samples of cloth and vinyl. I do have a Ross Roy book. Let me check that and see what it tells us .... to be continued. |
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Location: The Mile High City | I do love to talk DeSoto, especially when the Doctor is in! Yes, mine is all vinyl and no cloth - just as shown in the red and gray swatch. It is a bit hard to imagine a fancy Fireflite with all vinyl, but you just never know. I wondered if the 7 might indicate a different bolster color? They must have had more than just gray bolsters... |
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Location: Parts Unknown | GM data tags had a different code for all vinyl. This was not unusual for convertibles to be ordered all vinyl, as the cloth would deteriorate rapidly in the sun. I have not really explored this as regards to FL cars, but I suspect if your is indeed all vinyl, the "7" indicates all vinyl. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | If you are like me, you really like HARD information - something that is difficult to find on these cars. The Ross Roy books are a pretty good source of information, but they lack that coding element that would tie it all together and explain the HARD facts.
Anyway, .... a quick perusal of the interior trim section does indeed confirm that with with all convertibles, you had a choice of cloth inserts or all vinyl.
For Fireflite, the official choices were "Nugget Tweed metallic threaded jacquard fabric" OR "Metallic Vinyl" combined with the standard bolsters, etc. of "plain vinyl"
For Firedome is was "Frontier Homespun" fabric ...
... and for Firesweep it was "Frontier Homespun" OR all "plain vinyl", but the Dome and Sweep shared the "metallic vinyl" as the fancy vinyl option.
I have seen the all "plain vinyl" interior in at least one Sweep and it was truly austere ! Looked like the seats out of the school buses I rode as a kid.
So, now I guess I'll have to go pile everything out of my car and see what the seats are covered with under those lovely seat covers !
BTW - reading this Ross Roy book again makes me wonder how anyone DIDN'T buy one of these DeSotos in 58 !
Edited by Doctor DeSoto 2009-03-06 10:56 AM
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Location: The Mile High City | I sent Bob an e-mail and asked him to send me a picture of TRM code 741. We'll see what happens... |
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Location: Parts Unknown | The temps dropped to zero last night and we expect a few more days of hard cold. I'll get up to the shop to look at the DeSoto when it warms up a bit to confirm if it has cloth or all vinyl.
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Location: Parts Unknown | Pulled a weird shift today and was free by 1500 hrs. Took a drive over to look at the DeSoto while it was reasonably warm.
Suspicions confirmed ... my "741" code interior is all vinyl (no cloth inserts)
Since I also happen to have a complete interior from a red / white Fireflite coupe on hand with the cloth inserts, I took a gander at the data tag and it reads "646". This car came out Alberta, but I do not know if it was a Canada-built car. I see nothing about it to indicate it is any different than all the Detroit-built Fireflites I have seen.
Edited by Doctor DeSoto 2009-03-12 8:35 PM
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Location: The Mile High City | Bob Hamilton comes through yet again! He sent me these photographs of his fabrics and colors book. You are correct, Doc - the 700 series appears to be vinyl and the 600 series is fabric.
 (Code 741.jpg)
 (holly red exterior.jpg)
 (fabric 600 series interiors Firedome convertible.jpg)
 (vinyl 700 series interiors Firedome Convt.jpg)
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Code 741.jpg (100KB - 503 downloads)
holly red exterior.jpg (38KB - 526 downloads)
fabric 600 series interiors Firedome convertible.jpg (210KB - 651 downloads)
vinyl 700 series interiors Firedome Convt.jpg (174KB - 697 downloads)
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Location: Parts Unknown | Interesting. Going from the week old memory, it seems my colors looked a lot more like 731 than 741. Maybe another look and a photo is in order ?
The weather is finally breaking and I am getting excited to get working on this again. I am in the mood to sell all my non-FL cars and pour myself into the FL's. This economy would prolly prove a wet blanket to that idea.
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Location: The Mile High City | That second number may indicate the model. All the 73 series are vinyl interiors for the Firedomes. The 63 series are cloth interiors for the Firedomes. The 74 series is the vinyl interior for the Fireflites and I bet the 64 series is the cloth interiors for the Fireflites. |
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Location: The Mile High City | The final number looks to be consistent for color:
1) blue
2) green
3) tan
5) aqua
6) red |
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Location: Parts Unknown | I will dig out the data tag for the red Fireflite tomorrow. It had a cloth interior. Let's see of that confirms your theory.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 354
Location: Louisiana | Is it safe to assume that a 631 trim code for a Firedome Convertible will use the same fabric as the 2-dr Sportsman? The fabric in my Sportsman is so denuded that it barely looks like the material pictured above.
Thanks!
Justin |
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Location: The Mile High City | Hi, Justin:
Yes. I should have included the title from that page in Bob's book. It confirms that the fabric is the same for both Sportsman models and the convertible. Here I moved the title right above the code for 631.
 (Code 631.jpg)
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Code 631.jpg (77KB - 524 downloads)
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Location: Parts Unknown | 1958 Fireflite 2HT, red body with white sweep and roof. Power brake and steering, P-seat, P-windows, five button and dual ants, dual mirrors, solex throughout. Interior red vinyl with grey patterned cloth inserts on seats and door panels. Data code reads: 646 |
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Location: Parts Unknown | The above car came out of Alberta, Canada. How does a Canadian car come marked to distinguish it from U.S. built cars ?
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Expert
Posts: 1819
Location: Vancouver, BC | Doctor DeSoto - 2009-03-25 12:32 PM
The above car came out of Alberta, Canada. How does a Canadian car come marked to distinguish it from U.S. built cars ?
The Canadian plant built only Firedome models in 1958-59 and imported Fireflite and Adventurer models, as well as Firedome convertibles. So you have an American 1958 DeSoto Fireflite, which may have been imported by Chrysler of Canada for sale in Canada. Only the build record in Detroit would tell where it was shipped after leaving Jefferson Avenue.
Other than that, the imported Fireflite models were identical to those sold in the U.S. No stampings were placed anywhere on the car to show it was destined for Canada. Remember, 1958 was in the era before safety and pollution standards.
For the 1957 model year Chrysler of Canada built no DeSoto models and imported all Firedome and Fireflite models - Firesweeps were never sold in Canada. For 1960 only Adventurers rolled out of Windsor and that was the last of the DeSoto marque in Canada.
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Location: The Mile High City | Doctor DeSoto - 2009-03-25 1:30 PM
1958 Fireflite 2HT, red body with white sweep and roof. Power brake and steering, P-seat, P-windows, five button and dual ants, dual mirrors, solex throughout. Interior red vinyl with grey patterned cloth inserts on seats and door panels. Data code reads: 646
So there goes my theory about the 600 series belonging to the Firedomes! Nuts! That one sounded good to me. I guess it could be a misprint on the data tag, Neil says it happens - but that seems like grasping at straws.
However, these data code books seem to imply that 600's do belong to Firedomes and 700s belong to Fireflites....things that make you go "hmm"
Edited by Lancer Mike 2009-03-26 12:33 AM
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Location: Parts Unknown | If you read back in this thread, Nick's Adventurer was reported to have a code "647". |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 354
Location: Louisiana | Thanks Mike.
I've been carrying around a SMS sample swatch for a few years now and it looks a lot more like Fireflite fabric. As the linked album shows, however, SMS can match the Firedome material reasonably well:
http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/photos/photo-thumbnails.asp?album...
The zoomed photo you provided will help a lot! |
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Location: The Mile High City | Doctor DeSoto - 2009-03-26 1:10 AM
If you read back in this thread, Nick's Adventurer was reported to have a code "647".
True indeed! Well, I was willing to float the misprint idea for one tag, but not two! Maybe the book answers this - I'll ask Bob Hamilton, he knows all. |
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Location: The Mile High City | Justin, your interior looks absolutely awesome! SMS gets a lot of guff for poor customer service, but the end product is a total knock-out. Did they offer a swatch of the so-called Firedome material? As we can see from Brent's posts - maybe the break down of Fireflite material and Firedome material is not particularly clear cut... |
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Location: The Mile High City | Wait! I am confusing myself (not hard to do) the 700 series is all vinyl, the 600 series is fabric. 40s are for Fireflites (maybe Adventurers too), and 30 series are for the 'domes. I think this still holds together. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 354
Location: Louisiana | Lancer Mike - 2009-03-26 10:29 AM
Justin, your interior looks absolutely awesome! SMS gets a lot of guff for poor customer service, but the end product is a total knock-out. Did they offer a swatch of the so-called Firedome material? As we can see from Brent's posts - maybe the break down of Fireflite material and Firedome material is not particularly clear cut...
Unfortunately, it's not my car. My car is currently in a thousand rusty pieces. The Firedome in the album belongs to a gentleman from Sweden. Still, these images give me hope.
Edited by Devioussquirrel 2009-03-26 12:55 PM
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Location: Parts Unknown | Lancer Mike - 2009-03-27 8:36 AM
Wait! I am confusing myself (not hard to do) the 700 series is all vinyl, the 600 series is fabric. 40s are for Fireflites (maybe Adventurers too), and 30 series are for the 'domes. I think this still holds together.
*****************************
As I read it :
First digit indicates seat material, i.e. all vinyl or cloth inserts, etc.
Second digit indicates model of car to determine WHICH fabrics / vinyls.
Third digit designates color.
The weather has been getting nicer and nicer and I have been out doing site work on the new shop. I am getting so excited to get working on the car again ! |
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Location: The Mile High City | Yep, that's the way I figured it, before I confused myself...now I'm back on the same page. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | That's why we're here for you, buddy .....
Keep ya on the straight and narrow !
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Location: The Mile High City | Ugh! Neil is grousing that he has to do all the work around here, so now I have to pitch in! Here's a little tidbit of factory literature about the 1958 Spring Specials. The fine print reads as follows:
1) A rich, anodized-aluminum color sweep insert (sweep mouldings included) 2) Eight stainless-steel deck-lid accent stripes 3) Bright, stainless-steel sill mouldings There’s an exciting new look available for De Soto this spring. A brilliant combination of glittering steel and burnished anodized aluminum blends with the clean lines of De Soto Flight-Sweep Styling to produce a car that looks longer, lower and richer from any angle. Now available on any Fireflite, Firedome or Firesweep. The flashing spear of aluminum down the side of the car accentuates De Soto’s low silhouette and seems to add inches to its length. The deck-lid accent stripes add a distinctive note from the rear view. And the sill mouldings complete the picture, highlighting the lower part of the body and complementing the color of your choice. This is an actual sample of the horizontal-ribbed anodized aluminum color-sweep insert. Corrosion-resistant, it stays sparkling with a minimum of care. You will be amazed how the fluted pattern in this aluminum color-sweep adds length and dignity to any new De Soto at a very low extra cost. Order by code #314
Edited by Lancer Mike 2009-05-01 5:12 PM
 (Spring Trim Insert - Colors and Fabrics Book.jpg)
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Spring Trim Insert - Colors and Fabrics Book.jpg (78KB - 622 downloads)
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Mike : LOL!
So, whaddaya think, about that 58 Soto over on the Craigsboard; does it appear
to have that S.-S. aluminum side-sweep/spear insert on it, too?
Edited by d500neil 2009-05-01 5:41 PM
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Location: The Mile High City | I think I remember the one you are talking about, but I couldn't find the thread. It was not on the original thread that sparked this conversation...
http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=25163&start=1 I have a nasty feeling that De Soto spring trim was much like Dodge spring trim - anything goes! If you see all three trim elements together with a spring color - it probably came from the factory. If they let the dealers mix-n-match trim on the lot's old maids like Dodge did - heaven help us! At least, De Soto appears to have employed an order code for the spring specials, so I suspect that the broadcast sheet or even the data tag could confirm a factory installation?
Edited by Lancer Mike 2009-05-01 6:52 PM
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Location: Parts Unknown | My car, built 06 January, is spring color "Haze Blue Metallic". It has no deck lid bars or sweep inserts, although it was wrecked badly in 1960, and *could* have had these removed at the time of repair.
A red Fireflite coupe in the Carolinas that was in the NDC in the early 90's had both the bars and inserts.
Tim ***an built a Sweep convertible and added those items, but I know little else except talking with him and later seeing pictures.
The only fully SS'd DeSoto I ever dealt with was a Sweep sedan in that lilac metallic color.
I have seen a number of spring color cars without the bars or inserts though.
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Location: The Mile High City | Howdy, Doc! Is Tim's Sweep the $170,000 red and white De Soto I saw at Barrett Jackson in January 2008? I think that was decked out in all the finery; Spring Special, glittery carpet, High-Way Hi-Fi, bumper guards, Benrus, on and on and on and on and on... |
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Location: Parts Unknown | If memory serves, the car Tim added it to was his longtime pride and joy all white car. However, that hardly means squat when all it takes is paint and when we are talking Barrett-Jackson and paint, all bets are off in the big money game. I have not spoken with Tim in years. No clue if he still has that car or what he's doing. |
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Location: The Mile High City | Let's add Max's tag here
 (Max's cowl_tag.JPG)
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Max's cowl_tag.JPG (95KB - 628 downloads)
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Location: The Mile High City | So far, SCH 013 is the earliest yet - I suspect well before November of 1957! You can see the all vinyl 735 (turquoise / blue) interior combination. Very nice indeed! All cars discussed are still at the Wyoming Avenue plant! What was the cutoff there? July, 1958? |
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Location: Parts Unknown | What do you mean by :
*********************
Lancer Mike - 2011-01-19 4:10 PM
All cars discussed are still at the Wyoming Avenue plant! What was the cutoff there? July, 1958?
****************
What cars ???
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Expert
Posts: 1819
Location: Vancouver, BC | Doctor DeSoto - 2011-01-20 7:21 AM
What do you mean by :
*********************
Lancer Mike - 2011-01-19 4:10 PM
All cars discussed are still at the Wyoming Avenue plant! What was the cutoff there? July, 1958?
****************
What cars ???
DeSoto Firedome, Fireflite and Adventurer. Production came to an end at the DeSoto plants (Wyoming Avenue assembly, McGraw Avenue parts and Warren Avenue bodies & engines) in July 1958. Production of the 1959 models began at Chrysler's East Jefferson facility in September.
The Wyoming Avenue plant (built 1919 by Saxon Motor Co.) began a twenty year stint as Chrysler's export plant, the McGraw Avenue plant (built 1937 by Chrysler) for glass manufacture (1960) and the Warren Avenue plant (built by Paige Motor Co in the 1920's) for Imperial assembly (1959-1961 model years).
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Location: The Mile High City | I knew the closure of the De Soto plants was in the summer of 1958 (a nail in the coffin), and I wondered if any 1958 De Sotos were manufactured in the Chrysler plant. From Bill's message, it looks like once 1958 production ceased, they moved into the Chrysler plants and began production of the 1959's. July seems like an early stop for production, so I wondered. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | You left out a word like "built", suggesting perhaps a joke that all these cars were still
sitting at the Wyoming Avenue plant awaiting pickup. OK, ... I am up to speed now !
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Location: The Mile High City | Now I get it!!! Oh, but wouldn't it be great if there were still a secret stash of brand new 1958 De Sotos hidden in a factory warehouse somewhere in Detroit  Hey, a guy can dream! |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Hey Mike, .... ever heard "Guitar Pill" by Henry Phillips ? |
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Location: The Mile High City | Nope! I'll look it up! |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Well, did you ? |
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Location: The Mile High City | Yep, checked it out - I almost turned it off when he looked like he was dying on stage - but it got better after he took the pill... |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8443
Location: Perth Australia | Just watched it
The first bit after the pill is obviously Stairway to heaven, the second bit sounds like Toccata and Fugue by Bach.
Not really into classical music, but I like that.
Watch this, This guy is amazing, the organ (building) he plays is pretty special as well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd_oIFy1mxM
Mick |
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Location: Parts Unknown | "Wouldn't it be great ... ?"
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Veteran
Posts: 234
Location: Dallas,Ga. | Speaking of data plates, is it possible to get a reproduction one? My car is sadly missing it's plate. Or, does anyone have one from a junk car? I don't care about the data on it, I just want to cover the naked spot on the cowl! Yes, that sounds silly, but it is true. -Z |
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Location: The Mile High City | Hi, Zach - there is a sticky thread at the top of the Fender/VIN Tag and Broadcast Sheet Decoding section about how to get a replacement data tag. Basically, only one guy does it - A.G. Backeast. He is not back east but here in Colorado. I think an exact replica of the tag that is supposed to be on your specific car will set you back $400+
If you are just wanting to "fill the void" that is an expensive way to do it. You could probably get one from any junkyard that carries a moderate selection of forwardlook stuff. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | I have a shoebox full of matching VIN and data tags - many with matching titles - back home.
Any car I scrapped got chopped up small enough to not require turning this stuff in. I figured
that someday those tags would be very useful in doing a correct build on a car with no tags or
a ground-up build.
What kind of car are we talking about ? I might have a nice "match" for you. |
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Veteran
Posts: 234
Location: Dallas,Ga. | Hmmmm. I think I could fake it with a strip of aluminum, and some reverse (negative?) number and letter punches. It's just to fill a blank spot anyway. --Z |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Zach, please take advantage of Brent's kind offer!
AG Backeast DOES re-pop P/T plates, but, they have to be told or shown precisely how a particular P/T plate should be
numbered/stamped/arranged; they do not, and can-not, create P/T plates without being carefully informed
about how the end result should appear.
You'd just have to remember that the P/T plate would not actually pertain to your car, however!!!
But, maybe Brent has a P/T plate that will be for your car-model, at least!
Edited by d500neil 2011-02-03 7:07 PM
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Location: Parts Unknown | Tell me what that 58 DeSoto is ..... Firedome 2HT ? ..... Firesweep 4HT ?
I might have a match (?)
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | Doctor Desoto
That sounds like something that I need. I have a 1958 Desoto Firedome 2dr hardtop that has no Data plate and no Title.
Can you help me? |
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Location: Parts Unknown | I have at least one 58 Firedome 2HT set. The car was a stunning black car with red sweep originally.
I should have the VIN, data tag, and title on that one. But you are going to have to hold your breath a
while longer. I am in Afghanistan and that stuff is back in the states !
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | K . Im holdin my breath and turning blue. When do you think you will be leaving hell and returning to the states?
Im not in a hurry, just wondering, I can hold my breath for a while. Im kinda new here, are you in the service looking for Bin ?
I noticed my car was originally Spanish Gold and White. Do you think you have anything with those colors? I know beggers can't
be choosers. I guess if Im starting over, it does not have to be a Firedome, it could be a Fireflite or Adventurer. I can change nameplates.
That Black and Red does sound like it would be a sharp looking car. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | I am anywhere from 10 to 30 months out, depending on if I sign up for another hitch.
But if you need them, we can work something out when I get home.
To make a Fireflite or Adventurer out of it, you'd need the high backglass roof.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | I did not know about the back glass.
I have another project I need to finish up, so, yes, keep me posted when you get back. Thanks |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | Where does this tag say that it is a Spring Special?
 (2014merrychristmas 042.jpg)
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2014merrychristmas 042.jpg (238KB - 597 downloads)
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Location: The Mile High City | Hi, Kurt - you might think the SS code would be for a spring special, however - it is actually for stone shields. Unless the 9 under ST indicates a spring special, the code may only be on the punch card or broadcast sheet.
The TR 3 code appears to be for the three speed Torqueflite on our Firedomes. The Fireflites and Adventurers we have seen on this post do not have either codes for TR or SS, which may have been standard on those models and thus unnecessary on the data plate.
So far, only my car and Tom White's Adventurer show a ST code - both indicate a 1. Yours is the only one with a 9 - all others appear to be blank. Interestingly, White's car and my car are both coded as solid colors, but I am almost certain mine had a white sweep when the original owner bought it. Also, a monotone Adventurer would be a strange sight too. I am beginning to think the 1 code had something to do with the sweep, but I am not sure. Yours is coded dove grey and black with the 9 code - that possibly could indicate the spring special sweep.
Edited by Lancer Mike 2014-12-24 9:23 AM
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Elite Veteran,, James Passed away March 2021, He will be Missed
Posts: 1028
Location: Melbourne, Australia | I agree with Mike , although i am no Authority on these cars but having a black top and all grey lower including the sweep seems odd as it would look funny , so the grey sweep and body colour would indicate on pure logic that the spring special trim would have covered it . |
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Location: Parts Unknown | I think we might look to the Plymouth Belvedere with the "sportone" inserts for a more common
example of how the corporation would handle this insert business. I am coming up blank on any
memory of finding accent color under the sportone inserts .... it was always just straight body color.
Had the inserts not been installed, the car would be monotone except for the roof (if ordered with
an accent color.
As the bodies were painted the main color first, and THEN shot with the sweep in an accent color
(if so ordered), it doesn't make much sense to send a body back through the accent line if it was
getting inserts covering that area. This was given a lot of consideration, as anyone with original
fender sweep COLOR inserts still in place will know.
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Location: The Mile High City | Unfortunately, the coding of the Plymouth would not give us a clue about this. My canyon gold Plymouth didn't even have a cowl tag! An authentic "Christine" Plymouth would presumably have a XO3 PNT code, where the 3 signifies the Sportone inserts. It does seem crazy for the factory to paint a "Christine" XOX and then cover the Arctic White accent with Sportone!
Edited by Lancer Mike 2014-12-27 11:38 AM
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Expert
Posts: 2996
Location: Sept. 1958 | 58 Plymouth with inserts had body color under where insert would be. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Lancer Mike - 2014-12-28 8:30 AM
It does seem crazy for the factory to paint a "Christine" XOX and then cover the Arctic White accent with Sportone!
=======================================================
It involved a rather substantial extra step in the body process that the factory charged for.
I am quite sure the bean counters would have been all over this to ensure it wasn't done.
As Matt verifies, I cannot recall a single Belvedere I ever took the inserts off of that had
accent color paint underneath. They were all single color bodies with (perhaps) an accent
color roof.
While I have come to accept the "never say never" approach to how things got done, it seems
unlikely that DeSoto (and Dodge (building Firesweeps) did it any different than Plymouth, as
it involved cost savings for the corporation.
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Location: The Mile High City | I agree. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | Okay guys, here's some more information.
I noticed that the IBM card says "2" under the "ST", but the ID tag on the car it says "9".
Was this a last minute change?
 (58desotoinfo.jpg)
 (58desotoibmcard.jpg)
 (58ssdesoto.jpg)
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | 58DeSoDodge59 - 2015-05-30 7:40 PM
Okay guys, here's some more information.
I noticed that the IBM card says "2" under the "ST", but the ID tag on the car it says "9".
Was this a last minute change?
Wow, nobody knows?
I thought you guys knew everything.
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Expert
Posts: 1906
Location: Ontario, Canada | 58DeSoDodge59 - 2015-06-04 6:12 PM
58DeSoDodge59 - 2015-05-30 7:40 PM
Okay guys, here's some more information.
I noticed that the IBM card says "2" under the "ST", but the ID tag on the car it says "9".
Was this a last minute change?
Wow, nobody knows?
I thought you guys knew everything.
Well, maybe someone does!? It seems to me that you have this car/questions in "Members Rides" , "General Discussion" as well as here. Too confusing, at least to me!! Doesn't take all that much to confuse me!!
Greg |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | LD3 Greg - 2015-06-04 11:36 PM
58DeSoDodge59 - 2015-06-04 6:12 PM
58DeSoDodge59 - 2015-05-30 7:40 PM
Okay guys, here's some more information.
I noticed that the IBM card says "2" under the "ST", but the ID tag on the car it says "9".
Was this a last minute change?
Wow, nobody knows?
I thought you guys knew everything.
Well, maybe someone does!? It seems to me that you have this car/questions in "Members Rides" , "General Discussion" as well as here. Too confusing, at least to me!! Doesn't take all that much to confuse me!!
Greg
LOL
I'm sorry. I will try to type slower.
I usually don't have anything to say, But I just got all this info and I had questions.
I guess I get just as confused as you. I try to post in the appropriate title.
Isn't this fun?
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Expert
Posts: 1906
Location: Ontario, Canada | 58DeSoDodge59 - 2015-06-05 12:58 AM
LD3 Greg - 2015-06-04 11:36 PM
58DeSoDodge59 - 2015-06-04 6:12 PM
58DeSoDodge59 - 2015-05-30 7:40 PM
Okay guys, here's some more information.
I noticed that the IBM card says "2" under the "ST", but the ID tag on the car it says "9".
Was this a last minute change?
Wow, nobody knows?
I thought you guys knew everything.
Well, maybe someone does!? It seems to me that you have this car/questions in "Members Rides" , "General Discussion" as well as here. Too confusing, at least to me!! Doesn't take all that much to confuse me!!
Greg
LOL
I'm sorry. I will try to type slower.
I usually don't have anything to say, But I just got all this info and I had questions.
I guess I get just as confused as you. I try to post in the appropriate title.
Isn't this fun?
It is Great fun. Search for the truth always is! I completely understand your enthusiasm!
I offered two explanations for your N/A codes. All of us, regardless of how we arrive at our questions/opinions are simply trying to "decode" these cars. Please just tell us +or- whether we got it right or not!! YOUR input is essential for our on-going research. Thanks for your co-operation.
Greg
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Kurt, all of the Forwardlook cars have paint/trim data plates whose options-codings are, essentially, unique
to that particular car model...altho there are some shared codes that exist among the various car models.
Decoding a particular car model's P/T plate information is not easy or, intuitive, necessarily.
Gaining access to a car's Build Card (copy) or IBM card (copy) will help a lot, but, even then...you'll
still have to figure out (by luck, and/or by trial-and-error) what any certain option-number-coding might
confirm.
I've spent many years decoding the 55-61 Dodges (the 56'ers are NO fun to try to decode)...
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | I can see what you are saying. Apparently they made a lot of mistakes back then.
It seems like, as long as they were close, that was good enough. The reason I say
this is because,(1) The IBM card says "2" under ST, but the Data tag on the car says "9".
(2) If this is truly the Title that came with the car, then it was the wrong one.
The car was made and shipped on July 2, 1958. The Title that was given says
the car was sold at the Dealer on Aug. 14, 1958. So the timing is correct, but the
Title is wrong. The Title has the wrong VIN and it also says that it is a 4door.
So what happened? Did they want a 4 door at first, and do SOME paperwork,
and then change their mind? And then they forgot to change the info for the
new Title? ?
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 537
Location: Upstate NY | I can appreciate the concern over knowing precisely what the build was for a car you or I have purchased as I have gone down the same unclear path trying to discover maor about my limo that was a special build and then sent to a third party. I am seeing as more people try to make sense of the Chrysler Historical Society info that it wasn't like today. Info and records were not as accurate and answers to questions about specific options and other purchased items don't reflect the build sheet. I guess we have to be happy there is anything like the CHS to ask today what happened 50 or 60 years ago and try to patch in the rest. This car is a prime example of what appears to be a mistake. Maybe you can research the original or second owner to help clarify??? |
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Location: Parts Unknown | I'd be working this trail backwards to find a survivor who knows anything.
====================================
Obituary
William F. Rellos, the son of the late Frank and Maria Rellos, passed away the morning of Oct. 1, 2007. His wife was at his side.
He was born in Norfolk, VA on June 3, 1922, and reared in Sparta, Greece and brought back to Norfolk, VA along with his one brother and four sisters where he grew up. He was a World War II veteran originally with the 29th Division 111th Field Artillery and participated in the European Theater with Second Infantry Division, in the battles of Normandy, Northern France, Ardennes, Rhineland, Central Europe, and The Battle of the Bulge and ended in Pilsen, Czechoslovakia. He holds the Bronze Star Medal, The European Campaign Medal with Five Bronze Stars.
He was self employed for 32 years in the Restaurant and Lounge business. He was a member of the Greek Orthodox Church, Ahepa # 122, the American Legion Post 327 and Moose Lodge #39.
He is survived by his wife, Julia Rellos; son, William Rellos, Jr.; sisters, Angela Rellos, Elizabeth Begor and Terri R. Fox; nieces and nephews, and loving niece Maria. We will love and miss you until we are together again.
Services and burial were private. Donations may be made in his memory to the Greek Orthodox Church, Norfolk SPCA or a charity of one??(TM)s choice. Condolences may be offered to the family at www.hollomon-brown.com.
- See more at: http://www.hollomon-brown.com/obituary/William-F.-Rellos/Norfolk-VA...
================================================
It is not uncommon for relatives to be helpful with stuff like this and some
will take an active role upon seeing you preserving part of their family history.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | Well I found his son on Facebook. I sent him a message, and he said it was alright to call him. He was happy
to give me any information that he could. Unfortunately he could not shed any light on why the Title was wrong.
I sent him a picture of the car. He confirmed that I had the correct car that he grew up with. He told me all about the car.
He said that his father took care of EVERYTHING that had to do with this car. So any information about buying this car
went with him. See more info under Members Rides, 2014 Merry Christmas to me.
I think that if we had all the information that Chrysler Historical has, even the info of the cars that no longer exist,
then we could figure out all this stuff.
For now it is all about participation. You would think that after some peoples search of 30yrs. we would have more info
on these cars. I guess most people don't care as much about the history as I do. And I hated History class in High School. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | As you may know, I have two 58 Spring Special DeSotos. Comparing the Data tags, both have a 4 under the B.
Under the ST, one has a 9, the other has a 2. The one with the 9 has an IBM card that shows it was actually a 2.
Can anyone else, who has a Spring Special, confirm these numbers?
My guess is that the 2 under the ST means it is a SS, and the 4 under the B tells the level of optional trim.
I think the 9 on the Data plate was just a miscommunication on the line. Obviously, the guy making the Data plate
did not have the IBM card in front of him.
It's interesting to try and figure out, what the heck these guys were thinking. ? I wonder if the boss came up to
him and said, "Hey Bob, make that a 9 instead of a 2. It will be funny for someone trying to figure it out later".
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | 58 Firesweep tag.
SCH=1021
REG=08
SEQ=703
BDY=412
ST=3
PNT=XBX
TRM=621
TR=2
AH=5
Tracer No. =2 What is this?
Clocks=1
Sweep Mouldings=2
Radio=1
Steering Wheel=1
UC=1
___ & Wipers=1 ?
Tires=13
Axle Ratio=2
Route = 5 What ?
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Expert
Posts: 1906
Location: Ontario, Canada | The body plate is coded for: powerflite, heater/defroster, spring special, undercoating and route5 plus a code I don't know.
The axle ratio 2 is 3.15 to one, tires 13 is 5 rayon whitewall 8.00x 14 and route 5 is delivered by truck.
Greg |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | I will agree with everything but spring special. SCH = 1021, doesn't that mean that it was built
on October 21st 1957 ?
BTW this car was sent to/sold to the dealer James H. Kindel at 294 W. Colorado , Pasadena, California. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 9654
Location: So. Cal | That dealer building still exists and sells Maserati, Rolls Royce, Porche, Jaguar and other high end cars now. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | I figured that you would know all about that dealer.
Wouldn't it be neat to take some photos of the car (all fixed up) on the showroom floor? |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 9654
Location: So. Cal | That would be neat. You could always take a picture after hours during the summer with the car in the driveway or just in front, on the street. I used to work a block away from there at one point, but not anymore. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | These are the numbers for the Spanish Gold & White Firedome. Sold new at Bush Motor Co. , Guntersville, AL
Made and shipped on Dec. 18, 1957 .
SCH=053
SEQ=001
BDY=432
PNT=XUX
TRM=633
TR=3
PS=1
PB=2
RM=7 Is this Roof Moulding ?
UC=1
Solex=7
ACC=2
Axle=3
I think the data tag would look kinda like this; (If it was there)
Edited by 58DeSoDodge59 2017-11-15 10:27 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | December 18th. 1957 was the Wednesday, one week before Christmas. When the workers
came in that day, this was the first Firedome they made.
Edited by 58DeSoDodge59 2017-11-16 11:33 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | Summary of the Schedule.
013=?
018=?
039=?
049=Dec. 5th 1957
053=Dec. 18th 1957
059=Jan. 6th 1958
097=March 26th 1958
149=July 2nd 1958
We know that production, for the 1958 models, ended in July.
And, I know that there were only 529 more Firedomes made after the 149=July 2nd 1958.
Edited by 58DeSoDodge59 2017-11-16 11:34 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | FCA said Region 10 was Kansas City, MO., but Ronbo said that Kansas City is Region 52.
Lancer Mike and I each have a car that started to go to Region 10, but ended up being sold in Colorado.
Does anybody have any ideas?
Maybe region 10 was just a car for stock. (Region 10 was maybe parking lot #10).
Maybe it sat in lot 10 until somebody wanted it.?
Edited by 58DeSoDodge59 2017-12-02 11:06 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | Here is the IBM card for the Gold and White Firedome. I love the fact that it has the engine number
and the key numbers. Since it did not come with keys, I can look up the code numbers and cut the keys.
The engine number is the correct number of the one that is still in the car.
Could somebody decode this, and tell me what items are in Accessory Groups 2 and 7 ?
Thank you.
Edited by 58DeSoDodge59 2017-12-24 12:02 AM
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Image (39).jpg (233KB - 431 downloads)
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | That might not be Accessory Group 7. I can not read the upper right side of the card, but it
must be the Roof Moulding. I would still like to know what is in Accessory Group 2. ?
I would like to be able to read all the boxes. Does anyone have a readable card, or maybe a hand written card ?
Edited by 58DeSoDodge59 2017-12-24 6:10 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1488
Location: New Castle PA | This is from my web site for 1957 DeSotos. I don't know if the ACCESSORY GROUPS are the same for '58, but I don't think there would be a lot of changes between the years since the cars are so alike:
For the FIREDOME, AG #1 included:
heater
white sidewall tires
dual exhaust
ash tray light
trunk light
clock
windshield washer
hand brake signal
outside rear view mirror
prismatic mirror
vanity mirror
airfoam cushion rear
For the FIREDOME, AG #2 included:
all group 1 items PLUS
radio (less searchfinder)
instrument panel cushion
For the FIREDOME, AG #3 included:
all group 1 items PLUS
radio (with searchfinder)
instrument panel cushion
For the FIREFLITE, AG #1 included:
heater
white sidewall tires
radio (less searchfinder)
instrument panel cushion
dual exhaust
clock
windshield washer
rear seat speaker
hand brake signal
outside rear view mirror
prismatic mirror
vanity mirror
For the FIREFLITE, AG #2 included:
all group 1 items PLUS
radio (with searchfinder) |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | Thanks Edward. I forgot to go back to your website and check it out.
http://www.angelfire.com/de/petrus/index.html
Your website also answers the question about the Roof Moulding #7 question. It is actually
Glamour Group #7, which is, for the 1958 DeSoto, the Front Bumper Guards, Roof Moulding package,
Front fender (gun sight) trim, Rear Bumper side extensions, and Wheel Covers.
I am only going by what is on this car. I don't know if Stone Shields were on there or not.
It is possible that a former owner took them off.
The Glamour Group on your 57s is Category 337, but on my 58 IBM card it is punched out
at 317. Which is the Accessory Group.
This is the updated version of the Data tag, (if it was there).
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | Look what I found.
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 9654
Location: So. Cal | Where did you get that from? Is that for '58 only or '57 and '59 as well?
Edited by Powerflite 2017-12-29 10:58 AM
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Expert
Posts: 1819
Location: Vancouver, BC |
Reading the fine print at the bottom, this sheet is the first revision of the Accessory Group list, dated January 10, 1958, which superseded the October, 1957 list.
So, this list is for the 1958 models - Firesweep, Firedome and Fireflite. Appears to be from a Ross-Roy manual. Doubttat the 1957 and 1959 groups are identical to the 1958. They usually made some changes based upon what was popular the previous year.
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Location: The Mile High City | Great stuff! That's a good find. I gotta catch up with this thread again! |
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Veteran
Posts: 210
Location: Suwanee, GA | Here's the rest of it.
http://hasselsvensson.se/Desoto%20Bro/desotobro1958_3.htm
And 59:
http://www.autominded.net/brochure/desoto/De%20Soto%201959%20007.jp...
Edited by Ev's62Chrysler 2017-12-29 7:48 PM
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Location: The Mile High City | 58DeSoDodge59 - 2017-12-01 10:21 PM
FCA said Region 10 was Kansas City, MO., but Ronbo said that Kansas City is Region 52.
Lancer Mike and I each have a car that started to go to Region 10, but ended up being sold in Colorado.
Does anybody have any ideas?
Maybe region 10 was just a car for stock. (Region 10 was maybe parking lot #10).
Maybe it sat in lot 10 until somebody wanted it.?
Kurt: I think we would have to see a regional map for De Soto dealers for the 1958 model year. My guess is that the regions were a way to organize the dealers. If an individual dealer had a particular issue, they may have had a regional representative. Maybe the regional representative's job was to track the issues and figure out which issues were local, regional, or corporate problems. Perhaps the regional representative could work directly with the Chrysler Corporation - and the same would be true in reverse.
So my guess is that the two Colorado dealerships who sold our cars were both part of this unknown area of Region 10, and Region 10 was based in Kansas City, MO. The cars may not have even passed through K.C. MO. Tricky to figure out. My guess is that Region 10 for Plymouth dealers may be totally different than Region 10 for Dodge dealers versus Region 10 for Imperial dealers and so on. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | Lancer Mike - 2017-12-30 12:14 PM
58DeSoDodge59 - 2017-12-01 10:21 PM
FCA said Region 10 was Kansas City, MO., but Ronbo said that Kansas City is Region 52.
Lancer Mike and I each have a car that started to go to Region 10, but ended up being sold in Colorado.
Does anybody have any ideas?
Maybe region 10 was just a car for stock. (Region 10 was maybe parking lot #10).
Maybe it sat in lot 10 until somebody wanted it.?
Kurt: I think we would have to see a regional map for De Soto dealers for the 1958 model year. My guess is that the regions were a way to organize the dealers. If an individual dealer had a particular issue, they may have had a regional representative. Maybe the regional representative's job was to track the issues and figure out which issues were local, regional, or corporate problems. Perhaps the regional representative could work directly with the Chrysler Corporation - and the same would be true in reverse.
So my guess is that the two Colorado dealerships who sold our cars were both part of this unknown area of Region 10, and Region 10 was based in Kansas City, MO. The cars may not have even passed through K.C. MO. Tricky to figure out. My guess is that Region 10 for Plymouth dealers may be totally different than Region 10 for Dodge dealers versus Region 10 for Imperial dealers and so on.
I would love to see a Region map, or a list of the Regions.
Here is my theory. The IBM cards were made at the time the car was manufactured. The Region and Dealer numbers
were typed on the card. But these cars were not ordered by any Dealer. Most cars that were ordered, were shipped
the same day they were built. So, I think that they just put bogus numbers in there until the car had a place to go.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | Okay, here is the final draft.
I forgot to put the Color Sweep on the tag.
So now it is complete... I think.
 (58desotogold.jpg)
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | Here is some add-on information.
Down at the bottom, it tells you some of what is in the Bumper Guard Package, and the Roof Molding Package.
I like how they call it the "simulated rear bumper extensions".
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Location: The Mile High City | 58DeSoDodge59 - 2017-12-31 9:12 AM
Here is my theory. The IBM cards were made at the time the car was manufactured. The Region and Dealer numbers
were typed on the card. But these cars were not ordered by any Dealer. Most cars that were ordered, were shipped
the same day they were built. So, I think that they just put bogus numbers in there until the car had a place to go.
That could be! On my punch card, the Region numbers, 1 and 0 appear to be correspondingly punched. The dealer number is weird.
My dealer number should be 39456 and is hand-written in, but the punch card shows 39421 as the next series of punches after the regional 1 and 0. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | Okay, I am going to update this tag one more time. I realized, after all this time, that I kept writing
Power Steering down for the PS. But that is wrong. The PS is for Power Seats, just like the 1957s.
So where is the code for Power Steering? I thought that, something that common, would be one of the
major codes on these Data Plates.
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Location: The Mile High City | Hmmmm. These are the tags for the Firedome, Fireflite, and Adventurer series. I think the Firesweeps were different. The question for 1958 might be: Could you get a Firedome, Fireflite, or Adventurer without power brakes? I have a feeling that the answer is clear for Fireflites and Adventurers - no way. Firedomes - I don't know. However, if it was standard equipment on those models in 1958 - it makes sense that there would be no place on the tag for the code.
Edited by Lancer Mike 2018-02-23 2:09 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | Power Steering was an option on Fireflites, Firedomes and Firesweeps.
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Location: The Mile High City | Well, I'll be! Geez, you'd think the Fireflite would at least come with ps / pb! That is a very short list of standard equipment!
Edited by Lancer Mike 2018-02-23 9:55 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | Update of Schedules.
013 = ?
018 = ?
023 = Oct. 14, 1957
039 = ?
049 = Dec. 5, 1957
053 = Dec. 18, 1957
Christmas break.
Happy New Year
059 = Jan. 6, 1958
097 = Mar. 26, 1958
149 = Jul. 2, 1958
Anybody want to guess at the ?
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 9654
Location: So. Cal | The December increments in value seem to correspond to 1 for every 3 days, whereas outside of December it is more like 1 for every 2 days. This may be because of holidays that skew the time. Based on that, I would guess that 039 would correspond to Nov. 15, 1957 and you can backtrack from there to get approximate dates for the others. |
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Location: The Mile High City | Gotta link up Jim's car here http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=68218&posts=4#M560271
Edited by Lancer Mike 2018-03-21 8:33 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | Powerflite - 2018-03-21 3:49 PM
The December increments in value seem to correspond to 1 for every 3 days, whereas outside of December it is more like 1 for every 2 days. This may be because of holidays that skew the time. Based on that, I would guess that 039 would correspond to Nov. 15, 1957 and you can backtrack from there to get approximate dates for the others.
Maybe we can raffle off the dates.
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Location: The Mile High City | 58DeSoDodge59 - 2018-03-21 10:55 AM Update of Schedules. 013 = ? 018 = ? 023 = Oct. 14, 1957 039 = ? 049 = Dec. 5, 1957 053 = Dec. 18, 1957 Christmas break. Happy New Year 059 = Jan. 6, 1958 097 = Mar. 26, 1958 149 = Jul. 2, 1958 Anybody want to guess at the ? :) Tricky subject! Does anyone know the precise start and end dates for 1958 De Soto production at the Wyoming Avenue plant? I suspect Bill may be able to help us with these. You may be able to assume that the start date (if known) is production day 001 for the US built Firedomes, Fireflites, and Adventurers. If you could determine the end date and knew the schedule number for that day, it would be easy to get an arithmetic average number of vehicles for each day of production, but I'm guessing we may not get that type of information. Perhaps Chrysler Historical could help, but it doesn't seem like they are that helpful with such requests these days. If we had the daily average for the Wyoming Avenue plant in 1958, we could make some good guesses at the "?" areas. Even that would be guesswork! I bet they produced more per day early and then as the recession became more apparent, they scaled back! |
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Location: The Mile High City | From Roger's De Soto http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=68627&posts=20#M563506
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Location: The Mile High City | Looks like it was originally Pearl White (X) with a French Turquoise (J) sweep - or is it Pearl White top, French Turquoise body, and Pearl White sweep? with the all-vinyl dark green seat and light green bolster (see page 2) Roger, I know you are partial to cars painted to match the data plate: You could make a start by removing all the paint from the data tag and restoring it to Pearl White or French Turquoise (whichever it is) - that would be an easy, inexpensive little project! Looks like: Schedule 040 - Sequence 007 (the James Bond car!) Torqueflite Transmission Group 2: Radio, Rear Seat Speaker, Padded Instrument Panel, Special Steering Wheel, Dual Exhaust, Electric Clock, Heater - Fresh Air, Foam Rubber Rear Seat Cushion, and Variable Speed Windshield Wiper Glamour Group 7: Wheel Covers, Bumper Guard Package, Fender Ornaments, and Roof Moulding Package #2 Power Brakes? Undercoating Color Sweep lower stainless moulding?
Edited by Lancer Mike 2018-05-16 1:21 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 558
Location: Grenoble - France | XJX means French Turquoise body with white roof and insert, as per the paint chip text.
Could this one be XJX too ?
 (1958 Firedome htp cpe XJX maybe.jpg)
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1958 Firedome htp cpe XJX maybe.jpg (67KB - 419 downloads)
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Location: The Mile High City | Right you are! That looks like you would expect for Roger's car. |
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Expert
Posts: 3155
Location: NY & VT | OMG yes! and I LOVE those colors! Jeez, I'd switch it back in a heartbeat if the kitty allowed! I've never seen a '58 this color. Thanks for posting the plate Mike, and the picture Frederic!
Edited by firedome 2018-05-17 1:37 PM
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Location: The Mile High City | The CS "color sweep" code is quite confusing! Even for the 1957's, it doesn't seem completely clear. It seems we have data tag examples that clearly should have the color sweep and corresponding lower trim, but no number under CS. |
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Expert
Posts: 1488
Location: New Castle PA | No number under the CS? Might be like the '57s:
CS
This stands for COLOR SWEEP. The possible numbers are:
1 - Your car came with the stainless molding piece only, and the lower body color matches the main body color.
2 - Your car came with the stainless molding mentioned above, PLUS a different color lower body section, the "sweep". This was a $26.35 option
nothing - Your car EITHER is a Fireflite convertible, Fireflite 2 or 4-dr HT, or an Adventurer (all of which came STANDARD with the color sweep), OR your car has neither the color sweep nor the molding. |
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Location: The Mile High City | Thanks, Ed! That clears it up. I was looking at Doc's plate and White's plate and thinking they did not make sense. However, as you note, Fireflites and Adventures did not have a code number there because the sweep was standard. So this tag should look like this car:
Edited by Lancer Mike 2018-05-24 5:54 PM
 (Mikes Tag.jpg)
 (1958 DeSoto Firedome Color Study.jpg)
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Mikes Tag.jpg (135KB - 551 downloads)
1958 DeSoto Firedome Color Study.jpg (212KB - 612 downloads)
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Location: The Mile High City | Here's the sedan that was recently for sale
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01.jpg (208KB - 574 downloads)
21 reduced.jpg (240KB - 587 downloads)
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Location: The Mile High City | If the color sweep code was like the '57s, you would expect my car to have a 1 under CS. The Fireflite sedan also had no number under CS, where you might expect a 1 for a monotone car. Mayhap the solid color code on both cars (PPP in my case, CCC on the sedan) said it all and no number under the CS was necessary?
Edited by Lancer Mike 2018-07-13 5:59 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1819
Location: Vancouver, BC | Lancer Mike - 2018-07-13 5:56 PM
If the color sweep code was like the '57s, you would expect my car to have a 1 under CS. The Fireflite sedan also had no number under CS, where you might expect a 1 for a monotone car.
The numbers on the tag are for options. Your car has the standard single colour style and thus not an option. No number results in less confusion on the assembly line.
As the various assembly plants were taken over and placed under the Car Assembly Division, the sales codes, body tags and the build records were simplified by having all divisions and assembly plants use the same basic information. Sales codes were the same for all (except for items unique to same makes - such as the optional rear arm rests on base Plymouths and Dodges) for the 1959 model year and the build records followed. The body tag layout became the same for all by 1960, but the recording of the information on the tag did not become standardized until the 1965 model year.
Thus the changes from year to year in how things were done from 1956 through 1960.
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Location: The Mile High City | ...or my car looked more like this?
 (1958 DeSoto Firedome Color Study 2.jpg)
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1958 DeSoto Firedome Color Study 2.jpg (208KB - 540 downloads)
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | I have a question. According to the WPC News magazine, DeSoto made 17,479 Firedomes in 1958. And if the
VIN numbers started at 1000, does that mean the highest VIN on a Firedome was 18,479 ? |
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Location: The Mile High City | There were 16,409 US-built Firedomes in 1958, with the other 1,070 Firedomes built in Canada. That may affect the VIN numbers (not sure?). Bill will know. http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=44213&posts=3&highlight=de%20soto%20production&highlightmode=1#M345352
Edited by Lancer Mike 2018-07-23 11:16 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1819
Location: Vancouver, BC |
Production by assembly plant -
Firedome - LS2 :
Wyoming Avenue - 16,409
Windsor - 1,070
Fireflite & Adventurer - LS3 :
Wyoming Avenue - 12,552
DeSoto included Adventurer production with the Fireflite for the total LS3
For serial numbers -
Firedome :
Wyoming Avenue - LS2-1001 to LS2-17409
Windsor - LS2W-1001 to LS2W-2070
Fireflite & Adventurer :
Wyoming Avenue - LS3-1001 to LS3-13552
The serial numbers for cars built at the Detroit plants did not have a letter for the assembly plant.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1112
Location: Wild Wonderful | Thanks guys.
Firedome 16949. = 460 from the end. The youngest 58 DeSoto still out there ? |
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Location: The Mile High City | The Fireflite Spring Special for sale on ebay now...
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01 reduced.jpg (245KB - 270 downloads)
21 reduced.jpg (244KB - 260 downloads)
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 9654
Location: So. Cal | Wow only 416 from the last one built. This one is very late, built on July 01, 1958.
The January Spring Special cutoff is approximately 5/12 = .417, so multiplying that by the total Fireflite production (= .417 * 12552 +1000) would put the spring special cutoff around VIN number: 6230.
Both of my '58 Fireflites have VIN numbers significantly smaller than that, so they aren't going to be spring special cars. In fact, my red one is around the 1000th car built, and my Turquoise car is around the 300th car built. |
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Expert
Posts: 1889
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This car has been sold for $36K by RB collections on September 8, 2019 as well
According to the broadcast sheet paint scheme should be monotone white (code XXX);
Although the roof has another (darker) color
Some info what I have:
B4 code on the broadcast sheet confirm the Spring Special Package (just below paint code)
SOLEX 5 decoding the shaded windshield only (Chrysler decoding sheet shows Solex 5 = Code N/A)
No info about TIRES 15 and AXLE RATIO 4
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1.jpg (206KB - 267 downloads)
2.jpg (202KB - 279 downloads)
3.JPG (200KB - 276 downloads)
4.JPG (157KB - 269 downloads)
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Location: The Mile High City | Back when it was Chrysler LLC, they used to tell you the 15 tire code was Rayon white walls 8.5 x 14! Seems that information got "lost" in transition to Mercedes, Fiat, Honda, Pugeot, Sputnik, John Deere, Tonka, Keebler, and whom ever else raised the pentastar flag over the last 15 years. As you can see, they used to know the axel ratio codes too. Someone here probably knows what the 4 translated to. 
Edited by Lancer Mike 2021-05-20 11:35 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1889
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The Fireflites have two rear axle ratios:
3.15 – standard and the 3.31 – is optional;
Looks like this car has 3.15 axle (code 4) instead 3.31 axle (code 3) as it shown on the build sheet
The Fireflites have three types of tires:
5 Tires Rayon – Whitewall 8.50x14 (code 15)
5 Tires Nylon – Whitewall 8.50x14 (code N/A)
4 Tires Captive -Air – Whitewall 8.50x14 (code N/A) – FF Explorer Wagons only
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Expert
Posts: 1889
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Correction to the information about rear axle ratios shown above:
2 = used on the Fireflite (no idea 3.15 or 3.31 – FF had only two axle codes)
4 = used on the Fireflite (no idea 3.15 or 3.31 – FF had only two axle codes)
3 = used on the Firedome – 3.31 – that’s confirmed
3 = used on the Adventurer (no info what the axle code is that)
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Expert
Posts: 1889
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Summary:
The 3.31 rear axle code ratio used on the Firedomes and Fireflites have different digits!
3 on the Firedomes and 2 or 4 on the Fireflites (need confirmation)
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Expert
Posts: 1889
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1.JPG (90KB - 261 downloads)
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Location: The Mile High City | Wow! A manual shift Firedome! That must have been pretty rare. I was trying to find the Collectible Automobile article that Dave Duricy wrote - there may have been images of one in there. Still looking! |
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Expert
Posts: 1819
Location: Vancouver, BC |
DeSoto shipped 36,556 cars during the 1958 calendar year. Of that, 98.7% had Torqueflite - 1.3% had a three speed manual. Or, 475 DeSotos shipped in 1958 calendar year had a manual transmission.
Dave's article on 1957-59 DeSoto models was in June, 2014, pp 24-37. Volume 31, #1.
Lots of photos of styling proposals as well as factory photos. No photos of manual shift cars that I could see. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 9654
Location: So. Cal | And I would guess that the vast majority of those manual shift cars were Firesweeps. It is possible that no Firedome ever came with manual transmission with numbers this low, but who knows? |
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Location: The Mile High City | Thanks for the responses, Bill and Nathan. I went to Duricy's De Soto Land webpage and was surprised to find De Soto had Los Angeles production of Firedomes and Fireflites in 1958. I knew they had Firesweep production in L.A. - I don't think I have ever seen an L.A. Firedome or Fireflite data tag. https://www.desotoland.com/desoto_serial_numbers.shtml#1958 I still need to find the article, but there was a green super-stripper Firedome two-door hardtop with hubcaps that I thought may have had a manual transmission, but I don't know. |
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Expert
Posts: 1819
Location: Vancouver, BC | The dark green 1957 DeSoto in the article is a 1957 DeSoto Firesweep. It has hubcaps and whitewalls and as there is no good photo of the instrument panel so you cannot tell if it has buttons or gearshift lever.
For serial numbers Chrysler Historical does not have ending serial numbers for 1957 to 1959. I do have them for 1957 and 1958, courtesy Chrysler of Canada and their parts catalogue final editions The early edition had the beginning serial number while the final edition (February 1958) had the closing numbers as well. And the DeSoto numbers showed Detroit production for Firesweep, Firedome and Fireflite. Only the Firesweep is listed for Los Angeles.
Also note that no DeSotos were not built in Canada for the 1957 model year. The Firedome and Fieflite models were imported, but not Firesweep.
At the beginning of the 1957 model year Chrysler announced beginning serial numbers for the Fieredome and Fireflite but no ending numbers were announced. Much the same occurred for the 1955 LWB taxi - an opening number was announced (5,130,001) but no closing number as the LWB taxi never got into production .
1957 DeSoto Firesweep -
Hamtramck plant - 58,001,001 to 58,038,916 (37,916)
Los Angeles plant - 60,014,001 to 60,017,354 (3,354)
1957 DeSoto Firedome - S5
Wyoming plant - 55,332,001 - 55,376,868 (44,868)
Los Angeles plant - 64,035,001 - (No ending number)
1957 DeSoto Fireflite - S26
Wyoming plant - 50,396,001 - 50-426,380 (30,380)
LosAngeles plant - 62,053,001 - (No ending number)
1957 DeSoto Adventurer - S26A
Wyoming plant - 50,396,001 - 50,426,380 (Included with Fireflite numbers)
1957 DeSoto Taxi - In production in January ,1957, based on Firesweep with Dodge's flathead six.
Hanramck plant - 59,001,001 - 59,001,139 (139)
Engine nubers :
Firesweep - KDS KDS8 starting January 10, 1957
Firedome - S25
Fireflite / Adventurer - S26
Firesweep Taxi - LDS6 starts at 9601 on January 10, 1957. LDS6 also replaces prefix D72.
Not sure where Dave got his info from, but only Firesweeps were built in LA on 1957 to 1959. In 1960 no DeSotos were built at LosAngeles. All 1960-1961 DeSotos were built at East Jefferson.
The 1958, and 1959 are all the same - No serial numbers issued for LosAngeles, except for the Firesweep. Production resumed in Canada for the Firedome at the Windsor plant for 1958.
Tomorrow I will lay out the 1958, 1959 and 1960 models and serial numbers. The main source of info for 1958 and 1959 was Branham Automobile Reference Book - 1961 edition.
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Posts: 1889
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Poly 325/3-Speed: Samoa Green 1957 DeSoto Firesweep
https://bringatrailer.com/2017/07/15/poly-3253-speed-samoa-green-195...
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Location: The Mile High City | Chrycoman - 2021-05-28 2:12 AM Not sure where Dave got his info from, but only Firesweeps were built in LA on 1957 to 1959. Thanks Bill. I thought that was the case, but just looking at Duricy's webpage, one may think there was Firedome and Fireflite production in LA during those years. Good of you to clear that up! |
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