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Location: Apeldoorn, Netherlands | Wow! This is my dream car for sure! 1959 Dodge Custom Royal D500 Convertible Anybody inerested in my two 1957 D500 Lancers? Need to sell them for this one!
Edited by Jim Hoek 2008-06-01 4:57 AM
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Location: Netherlands | Awesome car.
Too bad the seller didn't take better pics of the car in the sun. | |
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Location: Lovely place | Wow, you don't see these too often! Din't find anything negative to say about the vehicle...  Magnificent! | |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | That's Aivar Lejin's former car.
I documented its restoration, but Aivar had the second set of carbs be installed.
The last time that I saw it, ir still had its red valve covers, altho silver V.C.'s were also seen on D500's, but only
those that were built in L.A. (IIRC--gonna check my files on that point), and, of course, the car should have those gold-ish
air cleaners, not chromed-guys.
Mr. Faltus correctly describes the car as being a real single-4 barrel D500, with the second carb being added on.
Outside of some of the replacement rear seat upholstery not-quite-matching (manufacturing-defect) the rest of the interior,
and those glass-packs, and carburetor, and current engine detail, the car is correctly restored, and has the correct Super-D exhaust
manifold on the passenger's side.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | .You YU-ROPEANS are salivating about this car, cause that $100K is CHEAP, to y'all ! | |
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Location: Lovely place | $100k gets us one tankfull!  | |
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | No it is not, Neil, look at the picture of the door, very carefully, Recall Aivar's had power windows. Also Note the engine compartment, Aivar's has red valve covers with the gold D500 decal, which I suspects is correct. Aivar's former 59 CRL D500 Convertible, still is at home in Börje's Garage   | |
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| No, Bishop, that is MY former car. It has been taken from nearly perfect as when I owned it to a model of perfection and authenticity by the current owner, and is probably the best example on the planet! Anyone would be very fortunate to land this gem!! | |
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | hmmmmm, perfection and authenticity by the current owner, and is probably the best example on the planet! Anyone would be very fortunate to land this gem!! "Authenticity" ????????? | |
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Location: Lovely place | I made my highest eBay bid ever, 104.500,- USD! Not enough, now its Neil's turn - its like Russian roulette!! :D | |
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| '59 Dodge: Authenticity as in correctness, not pedigree/provenance. I don't know what the hell is up with this "it aint worth a s**t if it wasn't born that way" mentality. This site has deteriorated into a bunch of self appointed experts who seem to delight in picking other's cars apart--hence the reason I stay away most of the time. It is really getting sickening and demoralizing to those who build a beautiful car only to have it torn apart by those who will never get close to owning such a gem. Give me a break!! | |
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | I totally agree with you, recall the beating I took when I called my car a CRL Convertible, even thou I did say it was converted and I was still looking for the correct eyesbrows. Recall, Neil clobbered me again, when He thought the pics I put of the D500 decals and he assumed they were on my car.
The car is beautiful, like ya said, anybody be proud to own it!!!!!
Gary | |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Well, then, they are both white/red CRL single 4-bbl D500's
Aivar's had a white (OEM-vinyl) top; what color was this car's top?
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | ....Uh, I think that the issue, in Re: MONEY is concerned, when selling a car, is mis-representation (also called fraud, or, more politely: puffery, or disingenuosness[look it up].)
Yeah, sure: call it ANYTHING you like; correctness and authenticity and provenance don't mean a thing to a BUYER.
Gee, it's PRETTY, it must be "real"....huh?
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| Bishop, you are a piece of work!! T'aint nobody gonna dispute your opihion--after all, it seems to be the LAW on this site, so I humbly retreat into my state of banishment from your exhaulted domain. Can you say Galen Govier "wannabee"? | |
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Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | Opinions is opinions, cj - nothin' more. Neil's a darn good source of info regarding anything to do with FL Dodges - especially '57-'60 D-500's, from what I've seen.
But, take the '55 Fireflite Coronado 4 door sedan I'm presently scrimping and saving for - she's 1 of just 487 built in the spring of 1955, yet she rolled off the showroom floor with no A/C. Now, I'm into OEM and accuracy in preservation of these babies as much as the next man, yet I'll be d@mned if someone's going to tell me that I can't have A/C in that car during the 115+ degrees that's just around the corner in my neck of the woods for fear of ruining her pedigree.
(That said, I've just this morning discovered that Vintage Air does indeed make trunk A/C units, but the point is, OEM or not, she was/is gonna have A/C - build sheet "points" be d@mned.)
And Neil, I believe the seller did, infact, list the car accurately - it's got a couple of Super D-500 goodies on it, but the seller listed it as a "regular" D-500 and explained why in the listing summary and did, to the best of his/her knowledge, explain any discrepencies they found in its history, self-made or otherwise.
Which brings me to a curiosity, Neil: Does your '57 D-500 have all its OEM running gear (rear end etc.)? | |
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Location: Lemoore CA | 1955Coronado - 2008-06-03 8:07 AM
Which brings me to a curiosity, Neil: Does your '57 D-500 have all its OEM running gear (rear end etc.)? No! he is running an incorrect fan clutch, of all things! And in addition, has also added a high gear rear end. I also believe he has added on, or plans to, a rear defroster unit. I also do not believe that the trunk overspray patterns are correct on his car. BUSTED!! LOL!
Edited by 5859 2008-06-03 12:18 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | As tempting as it is to go outside this classroom and roll in the mud in the playground with the school bully, this website
maintains just such a venue: the Rec Room (or whatever it's called, now); and I do not choose to go there.
Mark & James, I am not attempting to SELL my car, and am not attempting to pass-it-off as an unrestored, or "restored"
original car.
When and if I ever do so, I will be sure to disclose fully (as I am very PROUD of them!) all the performance modifications
that I have made to the car (starting with its dual master cylinder).
A person SELLING a car and claiming that it has been "restored", or is "original" and/or is attempting to pass-it-off as
something that it isn't (e.g.: back east, there is a real 57 Coro Super D500 that a seller tried to recreate as a Custom
Royal, and who in fact sold the car as being a CRL to an unsuspecting buyer) is fair game to expose/reveal/discuss/whatever.
If you read my first post (when I thought that this car had been Aivar's), you will observe that I commended the seller in disclosing
that the car was not a real (OEM) Super D500.
If you recall the recent black 61 Dodge D500 convertible on Ebay, the seller had claimed that it "was" a Super D500. Before the
auction closed (with a no-sale), I (and others) emailed the seller to advise that the car's intact inner fenders indicated
strongly that the car probably was a single 4-bbl 361, and not the Rammie 383 which needed fender cut-outs to accomodate
the over-hanging carbs.
When the car was re-listed, the seller advised that he did NOT know whether the car had been a 383-Rammie (missing engine)
or a 361/4-bbl model.
I know of several (let's say), 1959 "Super D500 CRL convertibles" which were created from hardtops and which were sold
at auction without their being disclosed as being "clones/Tributes/Continuations/fakes"
BTW, as far as Mister Helm's former car is concerned, only L.A.built 1959 D500's were produced with silver painted valve
covers.
Also, no 1959 Dodge D500 convertibles were built in L.A., and, the "fixed-top" L.A. built D500's were the ones with
the "D500" emblem installed off-center, on the gas lid door. L.A. Dodges had silver painted wheels; Detroit cars had 'eggshell'
painted wheel-outers, with gray-primer inner-areas.
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Sooo, based upon knowing that the car was not Aivar's, and knowing the guy that owned it before, and any other info that you might have about that car ,now, would you recommend it be bought and priced accordingly to "it's Ebay Description", by the seller? | |
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| Big yawn; Thank you for that little dissertation your highness! To each his own, but by the way, the valve covers and rocker arm covers on my car were chrome plated at my choice because it looks so much better (in my unworthy opinion). It was a Detroit car, and the person who now has the car is a first class individual who would in no way intentionally misrepresent anything about a car--he has one of the finest collections (and reputations) in the country. Anyone who gets one of his prime examples is fortunate indeed. | |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
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Location: bishop, ca | .well said, Jim. | |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Gary, we both know that Aivar's former car drives like a bat-out-of-Bellflower(CA) . I presume that Jim's former car runs and drives 'good', but, otherwize, all I'm seeing are still-photos of it.
What is unique about Aivar's cars is that he spends-the-money to get them running-and-looking in #1 condition, and then he DOES, indeed, RUN the cars, creating a #2 condition car almost immediately.
The Barrett Jackson cars probably can't get out of their own way, because most (if not all) of them have been 'restored' to
make them be as pretty as possible, without getting them dirty and detracting from their over-restored beauty.
It takes a rare individual who can afford to drop $100K on the buying of a convertible, and then go drive it, and
depreciate his investment. Aivar's car, the NEXT time it sells, will probably reach that point-of-no-driving status
and be removed from the highways.
I believe that most prospective buyers of Jim's former car, at its present price-point-and-beyond, will already have many nice, expensive maintenance-free automobiles to drive and that they would tend not to want to drive it (except off and on a trailer) and that the car will probably languish inside some garage-shelter, from now on, until the Sun goes bye-bye, in about 10 million years' time.
Edited by d500neil 2008-06-03 6:22 PM
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Location: Lemoore CA | That is really a shame, Jay Leno said it best, I enjoy taking a number one car, and driving it to a number 3 condition, and then redoing it back to a number one. That may not be verbatim, but it is pretty close. | |
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Location: Connecticut | The car on ebay, M352107882, is in fact Jim's former car. The data plate indicates that it came off the line as an XX1, all white, car. It was not a D500. Although this is a beautiful car, and one that I would love to have, it is not correctly restored. The claims of the seller, that it is a #1 car, are not accurate. If this were my car to sell, I would disclose this information.
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | This is Börje typing:
You call yourself an "Expert"?, You don't know s**t from shinola and everytime you open your mouth ,
You put your foot in it! You couldn't even tell this was not my car.
Car was missing power windows buttons, Had chrome air cleaners,
and valve covers and was being sold in the wrong State,
by a guy that doesn't even have a Swedish name.
The car you are talking about was restored by Bo Malefors
and this car was on Ebay, a year ago + or -, it had a 361 motor,
apparently now having a 383 as Ebay shows. Apparently this info,
is not posted in the description of the car!!!
Both Coronets and Custom Royals could be ordered with that motor.
If you think this is the "Correct Item",
("Mr. Faltus correctly describes the car as being a real single-4 barrel D500"), as "Expert Describe it",
you are sadly mistaken. Only way to know if it is even a true CRL
is a data plate, and I know the numbers it hasta have.
What info are you using that would indicate this is a correct car (Your Expertise at work again)?
For your information, they did build CRL D500 Convertibles in South Gate Calif.
I know the owner of such a car and it came with red valve covers.
Aivar also tells me you had not documented anything Aivar did with my car.
If anyone intends to spend that kind of money for a car they should get the data plate info and I would be
happy to help with the numbers----Remember I have a real one!!!!!! and I can check the numbers against mine.
For Mr Carjock's info, I will put my "REAL" D 500 CRL Convertible up against any CRL, on this Planet!!!!!
If you want to see my car, buy the latest (August issue) of "MOPAR ACTION" magazine.
Börje | |
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Nice work Ron, We knew because of Böjre. I had contacted the seller about the description and was lead to believe He would change it. I mentioned how hard it is to get a 100% Ebay rating, and soooo easy to lose, Figured I didn't need to say anthing, as I figured one of you experts would find the discrepancy and of course you did. Congradulations!!!!!!!!
You "Beat Neil to the Punch"  Note the "Smiley" after the "Punch", Doc Desoto.
Since you know the former owner, What did this car start out as, Coronet or Custom Royal?
I don't care, as ya know, mine is a Coronet, but those willing to spend over a 100 grand on a car might??
Best Regards
Gary | |
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | You are "Almost Correct" about Aivar's former car, now Börje's car. It is rarely driven.
But you are NOT correct about it becoming a number 2 car now.
Börje keeps his car in a condition 2nd to none.
It looks like it just rolled off the showroom floor
Gary | |
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Location: Scotland | any '59 Dodge is a great car and I always liked Jim's car don't know why he got rid of it.Neil is definitely a 1957 Dodge expert(my joint favourite FL car) and quite knowlegeable of 1958 Dodges(Lancer Mike is the real expert on the '58s) but is out of his depth amongst the '59 Dodge Boys. | |
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Location: Connecticut | I looked at the auction again and noticed the Q-and-A section. If you click on the '....more' you will see that the owner, Allan, admits that the car was originally a white car with a 361. He says that the trim code is 379. It is actually S79, the 'S' indicating swivel seats. I give him props for coming clean, but he should have made this info more prominent in his description.
Edited by ronbo97 2008-06-03 10:13 PM
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Location: Connecticut | Gary - The body code is 355 - Custom Royal Lancer Convertible. Ron | |
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | I don't either,(Why Jim sold the car), It will kill me to get rid of mine, and it certainly is not in the same league as the one that is for sale.
But as long as I breath in and breath out, She will be driven, enjoyed, seen on the road and not a "Trailer Queen"
Quality time, or as Aivar puts it, Making Memories to watch later is what counts. Maybe that is why Aivar drives his cars, instead of computing the cost per mile of devaluation, from doing so?????
In no way have we run this car down, but you think "Truth in Advertising" is a virtue, or should we keep mum and
let the buyer beware (ya know the buyers that havta have a pedigree and are willing to pay for it)?
Edited by 1959Dodge 2008-06-03 10:22 PM
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Thanks Ron, You the man!!!!!!
You have a lot more self control than me, How can you let
that beauty you have , sit there , uncompleted?
Well I know, what we are all short of, "Time"
anyway, I let Aivar and Borje know, thanks a lot!!!!!!
Gary | |
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Yes Aivar called him on the fone and said , He seemed very friendly and honest.
like ya said, He could have done a better job of describing it.
I learned that the hard way, when I first joined the Forward Look. | |
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Location: DFW, TX | Geez... a lot of attitude and ego in here over a plain ol DODGE!  | |
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | "Plain old Dodge"??????
You been hittin the Burb in, Again? | |
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Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | d500neil - 2008-06-03 12:27 PM
Mark & James, I am not attempting to SELL my car, and am not attempting to pass-it-off as an unrestored, or "restored"
original car.
When and if I ever do so, I will be sure to disclose fully (as I am very PROUD of them!) all the performance modifications
that I have made to the car (starting with its dual master cylinder).
I hear ya, Neil - just giving you a good-natured red-a$$ing.  | |
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Location: Lemoore CA | Yes, I hope it is known that my jab was in good fun as well. I don't really subscribe to the same definition of restored as Neil does, but that does not mean that his opinion is wrong either. As for the sale of a car that is in this league, I personally feel that anyone who has 100 plus thousand at their disposal to spend on an automobile, is a "big boy" and should handle the authenticating of a car by his (or her) self. | |
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| Just for information to all of you "Dodge critics" out there, this car was built to the condition it is currently in by me and Bo Malefors. Bo also did Aivar"s car and I know that car well (I have owned something like 70 FL cars during my collecting days, and know a LOT about them!). Aivar's car and this car are very comparable in condition and workmanship. I chose to take my car to the configuration that I would have ordered if I would have been able to order one new in 1959. This included the Super D500 installation, chrome in some unique places, and a few other things that I just like and wanted on the car. That's just the way it is, and Allen Faltus was very well aware of that when he purchased the car. I only sold it because it was going to Allen and because I am out of the car collecting game (well, almost, sort of, well---). Allen is one of the most honest and respectable individuals that I know, and I'm sure that he did not intentionally write a description of this car that would in any way mislead a potential buyer. I see that someone asked him about the "provenance" on the car, and he posted a very honest reply for all to read. I'm sure that who ever ends up with the car will be given the full story of its creation by Allen. Additionally, that person will be one happy individual as Allen's cars are all "special/perfect" and he even treated this one to a fresh engine rebuild (of the ML 383 engine), and new steering gear rebuild, and a lot of attention to detailing things that were even in the slightest bit deteriorated. I would encourage anyone with the interest to go after this car--you won't be sorry!! | |
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Location: Lovely place | The vehicle will be relisted.
"Hi, Ebay Marketing has asked me if they can end the listing and then re-list it for seven days so that they can put it on their Home Page. All bidders need to be pre-approved and they will pre-approve you automatically. I am sorry for the inconvenience."
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | WOW; I guess I've been missing a lot of interesting communication, recently!
I think Borje was directing a lot of his blather toward me, so, I will respond, as it might pertain to Aivar';s former car.
I was intimately involved in documenting Aivar's car's restoration, and decoded its P/T plate and took photographs
of its very-early restoration process. I have them right here, if you still want to call me a liar.
Bo Malefors actually found Aivar's former car, in OR, and sold it to Aivar on a 'finder's fee' basis.
Aivar restored the car in his own shop.
Aivar's single-4-bbl D500 was built with a WHITE vinyl top, in Detroit, as were ALL 1959 Dodge D500 convertibles. It is a white/red/white body, with red/black interior.
I DID miss noticing the manual window cranks on it, but, had no idea if Borje had repainted the valve covers and chromed the air cleaners, as I haven't seen the car in several years.
Mis-observing the manual windows (the only real clue that the car was not Aivar's former car) is hardly a condemnation of my knowledge of 1959 Dodges.
I think that Borja is most chagrined about the fact that his car is not a real Super D500, but, he knew that when he bought it.
And, again, no 1959 D500 convertibles were built in L.A.
Edited by d500neil 2008-06-04 10:12 PM
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | I don't want to get in the middle of this "Joust" as I prefer keeping it lite (well most of the time, anyway) but this is NOT the reason Börje was/ is and will be even more so,(chagrinned),as you say, "I think that Borja is most chagrined about the fact that his car is not a real Super D500, but, he knew that when he bought it."
Börje explained (you might say), what he expected, as far as his car is concerned, at the Spring Fling.
I never put up a picture of anbody cars, or any comments they make, without asking them first.
Just seems like a fair thing to do.
I did put up Pics of the car when it was Aivar's after checking with him, as I thought many folks would enjoy seeing
2 pretty rare cars together and we not all the expert that You are, so they got to see a real one, and as I say, A real
fun one.
I guess that was my mistake about puttin the picture up, as like my car, you consider his fair game too, even thou
He told you, "Au Contraire"
Gary | |
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Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | Bo works both ways on the 'Finder's Fee' bit though, Neil.
I found him a straight, no cancer '59 Cadillac 6-window Sedan De Ville about 30 miles west of town here in March, 1993 - Bo was able to snag it for $400 and I wound up $50 richer because of it - even though I was working for the man at the time. | |
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Location: Lemoore CA | I for one would like to know if there is any truth to the statement that the d-500 convertibles were produced in California, Neil, what source are you using? It would be great if we could get the data plate from the Mystery car that was produced in CA. | |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | My main reference man is a 59 Fanatic, not Ron Waters, particularly, but Ron & I know him very well.
He is not an active participant on this website, but does read & PM on the website's Daily List Server.
I will contact him & see if he wants me to drop his name (because I am not a name-dropper, unless the name's
already been dropped), and find out if he's been reading this/these threads, and if he wants to become involved in this
pissing contest.
As my freshman psychology professer said, in Re: "ghosts" , SHOW me one and I'll believe in one/them.
So I say: SHOW me an L.A. Built 1959 Dodge D500 convertible (with P/T plate/Broadcast Sheet &/or IBM card-copy)
and I'll reconsider my/my-correspondent's declaration: THERE WERE NO 1959 DODGE D500 CONVERTIBLES BUILT
AT THE DODGE L.A. ASSEMBLY PLANT.
There will be a new "sticky" posted on the Fender Tag board, about AG Back East's being able to re-pop P/T plates and VIN's.
Carl, there, is CLEARLY not interested in producing any 'plates' which would create (let's see if I can get all the derivations, here) : fakes/clones/bogus/tributes/continuations cars.
Fortunately, and I do take some credit here, another man & I were able to break the 57-58 P/T plate codings, and I've had assistance from other experts in the 59-61 Dodges, too.
(UN-)fortunately, the main research-axiom for all things MoPar, for any/all years, is :"Never-say'Never" , which I just did-do, above here.
If anyone can produce real-evidence that at least one 1959 Dodge D500 convertible was built in L.A. , I'll have to retract my statement; until then: the statement remains as fact.
Edited by d500neil 2008-06-05 7:30 PM
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Börje here, Again
Here's the idiot at work again, opening his mouth about his "Intimately Involvement" of Aivar's former,
now my, car.
Here you claim again knowledge you don't have, saying that Aivar restored his car in his own shop.
In fact, the car was restored in Phoenix at Bo Malefor's facility & painted by a guy named Peter Isacksson.
Do us all a favour , Keep your mouth shut of things You don't know. | |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Gee, hello, Borje/Gary; I've got photos of Aivar's car, inside his shop, being disassembled.
I'll be happy to have someone post them here, for you to see.
And, please, do not miss-out on my Fender Tag Decoding thread, on 1959 D500 convertible production.
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | ok thanks Neil, by the way, thanks for decoding mine
Gary | |
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Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | 1959Dodge - 2008-06-06 4:07 PM
Börje here, Again
Here's the idiot at work again, opening his mouth about his "Intimately Involvement" of Aivar's former,
now my, car.
Here you claim again knowledge you don't have, saying that Aivar restored his car in his own shop.
In fact, the car was restored in Phoenix at Bo Malefor's facility & painted by a guy named Peter Isacksson.
Do us all a favour , Keep your mouth shut of things You don't know.
AAAAAHHHHH!!!!!
I worked with Peter!!!!! Skinny, blonde Swede about 5 feet 10 inches, maybe a bit taller - had himself a restored red & white (saddle paint style, I think) '58 Dodge CRL 2 door hardtop at the time.
How long ago was this baby of yours restored, Borje?
I worked with Peter (and David before he got homesick) at Bo Malefors' place during the spring (March to May) of 1993!!!!! Haven't seen him since, though.
Have you seen him lately? If so, how the hell is he? Is he back in Sweden or is he still here in Az. or in the U.S.?
Ash him if he remembers a guy he worked with at Bo's here in Phoenix, Arizona (in the Grant Ave. shop) in 1993 who made him a cassette tape of Wolfman Jack broadcasts - that's me, Mark Cederquist. 
Edited by 1955Coronado 2008-06-07 4:30 AM
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | I will pass that msg on to Börje, for ya.
I think it has been about 10 years now, but Aivar and I
will be at the car show in Ontario today (Saturday June 7)
and I will ask him for you, (How long ago the restoration was done),
and I will also ask if he knows Peter's present "Whereabouts"
Gary
Edited by 1959Dodge 2008-06-07 7:21 AM
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Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | Thanks, Gary - mainly asking when the restoration was done because, if it was at Bo's place in the spring of 1993, that baby may have my own fingerprints on it! I remember doing some sanding on a '59 Dodge convertible while I was working there between February (mistake above) and May of 1993 could be a small world, you know?
But, Peter's what I'm mainly concerned with - one of the nicest and hard working guys you'll ever meet. The man used to buy a different car every 4-6 weeks - he'd buy, like, a '65 Ford LTD hardtop, get it roadworthy, then sell it to buy another one. By the time I had to leave Bo's shop, he'd gone through the LTD and a '72 Chevy Caprice ragtop and was driving a white '67 Plymouth Fury III ragtop.
But yeah Gary, if you could pass those questions off to him, I'd really appreciate it. Peter was a darn good friend - we just lost contact after I left Bo's place is all - and it'd sure be awesome to know he's doing alright. | |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Hello Borje/Gary, or is that Gary/Borje?
As I have been called an "idiot" and not knowing "s-h-i-t-from-shinola" by Gary/Borje, in regards to my statement about having intimate knowledge about Aivar's former car, and its restoration, let's see if the following information qualifies as being "intimate".
1. I have known Aivar since 1986, when I advised a friend to sell his 1958 NY'er convertible to Aivar, which Aivar eventually sold to B., and which B. has since sold.
2. I have assisted Aivar in decoding his other 57-61 Dodges that he has owned, including the subject 59 CRL D500.
3. Aivar bought the car from OR, thru Bo Malefors via a finder's commission, around 1991.
4 I inspected and documented and decoded the subject '59, while it was disassembled and stripped-out, at Aivar's shop.
5. I have photographs to confirm the following information that I have obtained on/about the car:
6. I have the P/T plate, which I have decoded. It is a Detoit-built single 4-barrel D500 convertible, in its present color scheme, but it originally had a white vinyl top, with MANUAL windows and a manual swivel seat. It was "Scheduled" to have been built on 9/29/58 so that it is a very-early production car.
7. I have (a copy of) its BROADCAST SHEET, which confirms the above information, but which also confirms that the car was built with the following Accessory Groups (which I will not break-out, here): Deluxe Radio Group, Convenience Group, and Deluxe Appearance Group.
8. The car, as sold to Aivar, had a 1957(!!!) D500 engine (single 4-barrel) engine installed in it.
9. As also photographed by me, at Aivar's shop, the car was in #4 condition. Its front body clip was completely disassembled, the interior gutted, AND the rusted-out trunk-floor and rear-body was cut-out, for new panel installation work.
10. I ground-down the rear frame rail, and applied a penciled-over scotch-tape rubbing, to confirm that the frame rail stamping was actually NOT (unfortunately) the missing OEM engine's number, but, rather, the car's "Shipping Order Number" : M0929-71001 .
11. I documented the existence of the OEM D500 emblems' (former-) placement, on the fins, and documented the OEM paint scheme.
12. I inspected and documented and decoded the 1959 Custom Royal 4-dr sedan D500 that Aivar bought from Lari Stumpf which was completely driveable and in overall strong #3 condition, and which Aivar proceeded to cannabalize in the restoration of the convertible.
13. That sedan sacrificed its single 4-bbl D500 engine ( # ML383-18604) and power windows, sheetmetal and trim/equipment.
14. I inspected the car, and the remains of Stumpf's former car TWICE, yearly, at Bo's shop, when I would attend the Barrett Jackson auctions. The first visitation showed the car to be in virtually the same condition as I had seen it, at Aivar's shop, except now/then it had wheels installed on it. The next year, the car was about 85% completed, but still needed to have the (incorrect) black Hartz-type top installed onto it.
So, let's recap: would knowing/observing Aivar's former car to document it's Paint/Trim data plate, Its Broadcast Sheet, its Frame-rail coding, its non-original engine, power windows and top, and documenting its restoration progress, at Bo's (yeah; I did brain-fart about the recreation of the car, at Bo's, and not all in-house, at Aivar's; I seem to recall that Bo's working on the car was a part of the finder's-fee/purchase agreement deal on the car; but, maybe that was (also) a part of the deal on Aivar's SECOND 1958 NY''er convertible purchase, which had Bo doing ALL of the work on that car.).....constitute an "intimate" knowledge about the car?
I think so, and, photographic-evidence is available to support my statements.
Edited by d500neil 2008-06-07 5:17 PM
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| Boy, Bishop, a little "thinned skinned" aren't we? This seems to far more about your ego than documenting the car(s)? | |
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Börje asked to use my computer ,He like you, Neil is a long way from being a computer Geek. Like I said , I don't dispute your knowledge, but a kinder and Gentler Neil, might be appreciated by more users here, than just Me.
We do appreciate your knowledge about the cars, but you leave the impression that no car is worth anything or is worth less, unless they are EXACTLY, as they came from the factory.
We both know about the quality of workmanship that went into Aivar's former car, and was just pure luck that the
car was originally Red & white. Except for the power windows, and some engine parts, it would be very hard to tell these cars, (Börje's and the one on Ebay) apart so why should the former seller be stuck with a white, "Politically correct car", if that is not his choice? Both are superb examples of what Dodge did or could have built in 59.
Yes maybe the one that was born with the 383 , a wealthy collector will pay for, but I dont think most of us here fit that description.
We like to know what our cars were---your knowledge comes in handy here, but we like to see our cars appreciated as they are now, and I think you have a bit of a weakness in this area.
Like I said, first goal with me and my car is to do, like you said aivar does, take a number one car and drive it to a number three, but the way you decribe some cars, and mine in particular, I think I started with a #11 car and "God, & The Bishop", only know what kind of a number it has now.
Am I gonna take off all the Custom Royal Trim, and I gonna take out a motor that runs perfectly on 87 Octane, replace a lightweight (relatively speaking) Aluminum 727 TF that's just been rebuilt and replace it with a cast iron one, that is harder to get parts for? Am I gonna paint the thing blue and put in a black and white coronet interior in it---------just to keep the wealthy collectors happy and the Bishop?----I bet even you can guess the answer to that one.
I love the car as it is now, and so do all the people that see the car, as I drive, "Fat Dumb and happy", down the street, whilst I whittle down it value , by doing what I like to do most, DRIVE IT!!!
Gary | |
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Location: Apeldoorn, Netherlands | I don’t see any significant discrepancy between parties here. Some know a lot about OEM whilst not stating anything else is worthless, easily proven by their own chosen performance, safety or whatever improvements.
And all here agree that knowingly mispresenting a car for sale – on eBay or wherever – is not the right thing to do.
We all love the same cars.
Could we, please, stop being so personal? For I’m getting kind of ashamed being part of our community here.
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Location: .Norfolk..Mafia.. ,England UK | D@MN..
I only been away a week and Neil Finally Defends Himself... Maybe Jim should Buy It Back , Then all the arguments can Stop.. | |
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| Clive: I can't afford to buy it back!! Since Allen worked his "magic" with the car, it is nearly perfect and will bring big bucks--look at the current (new) auction bidding! Once again, anyone who gets this car will have one of the best in existence! | |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Jim (Helm); my "ego"????
I wasn't the one calling-names, and defaming anyone...please go back and read the messages and tell me where I called
anyone anything-derogatory.
Or does "Bishop" (instead of my name) "your Highness" (I like that one!) or "idiot", or not knowing "Sh-i-t from Shinola"..... serve as terms of endearment where YOU live?
And, I took a some satisfaction, but not great enjoyment, in documenting my intimate knowledge of the recreation of Aivar's
former car.
How is that feeding my ego, when I get called-out to justify a statement of fact ?
And, Gary/Borje, a #1 car is generally accepted as being a NON-driven, very-recently-fully-restored "trailer queen".
A #2 condition car is a VERY clean 'driven' (typically, but not always, a former #1-) car, which shows varying-extents of having been driven, like Borje's car presently is.
Thought you guys would know those definitions.
Edited by d500neil 2008-06-09 1:59 PM
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Börje, may, I don't and could care less.
But thanks, anyway.
Gary | |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Gary/Borje, continuing-education is important. | |
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Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | Well Neil, I now know enough to say that I can't/won't ever own a #1 car - I tend to drive 'em all.
Besides, what the heck's the fun of fixing up a car just to sit there and look at it? | |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Yeah, I think that my own car's physical condition was a legitimate strong #2, when it won Best in Class at three WPC
club's national meets ('83, '86 & '87--long time ago).
According to then-president Sherwood Kahlenberg, my car almost got Best-in-Show Dodge, at 86 Colorado Springs meet, but
got beat by a 1970 Panther Pink Challenger convertible, for that award.
Around 1990, Trailer-Queen FWDLK'ers became rather common at meets.
Now, I just drive and enjoy the car, and keep it as clean as I can.
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| Ok, Bishop, you win! You 'da man! The more you pontificate, the more sure of this I become! | |
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Location: NY & VT | Pardon me if I'm wrong, but I think Neil isn't saying the owner should be stuck with a "politically correct" white paint job, or that a car should never be altered, etc etc, but merely that on eBay it shouldn't be represented as an original #1 car, and I'd agree. | |
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | I agree too, and after a little coaxing from Börje, and others, as ya saw the car was relisted.
Gary | |
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Location: Apeldoorn, Netherlands | Needles to say I agree, too. | |
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Location: Parts Unknown | The way so many guys on this list "get their feelings hurts" over simple contrary comments belies a lot of personal insecurity.
Pretty basic psych 101.
Wonder what that is all about ?
Neil is going to tell me my car did not come with power windows, seat, Solex, leather, has incorrect paint and top, and was never available with a floor shift Richmond Gears 5-speed, swivel seats, or six bolt valve cover 906 heads ..... and so on ...
And I will say to Neil, .. "you know what ? You are right !"
The truth is, he IS right ! (most of the time). He has devoted countless hours to studying the data and he knows his s h i t !
Where it goes awry is where the listener has some inner guilt feeling of doing something wrong and bad and incorrectly assigns some sort of beration to Neil's simple statement of fact regarding OEM data/ research. It is in no way an attack or otherwise, ... just a statement. If a person CHOOSES to own a statement as some personal attack, ..... hmmm .... ? What does that say about that person ?
First of all, it indicates a narcissistic tendency to think "it is all about them". Secondly it indicates personal insecurity. And from responses I often see here, it indicates a very lacking skill in interaction and communication.
Remember that old saying "If the shoe fits ... " ?
I would like to think we all operate from some "higher plain" of thinking because we (obviously ) have an elevated level of vehicle appreciation, but sadly, we all do not share the same paradigm.
One of my most life enlightening moments was Paradigm Training in Academy, and how one deals with a rapist, serial killer, etc. and can find a seemingly normal guy you might easily sit down and share a cold one with, yet so much underlying paradigm psychology is miles off.
Believe it or not, violent convicted felons can learn to see the world from a place that does not make them feel so threatened and react badly. It does not seem too much to ask other car enthusiasts to do a little self inventory and adjust certain responses to not own what was not intended by others.
Just a thought.
*cheers* | |
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| Sheesh, Doc, thanks for the psycho-analysis! I always knew there was something wrong with me because I get irritated when people pass opinion (researched or not) off as fact. But now that I know that I am in the company of rapists and serial killers, I feel much better! Must remember--"Neil knows his s**t", "Neil knows his s**t"---! And, "I am guilty of some offense if I disagree"! I think I've got it, by golly! Thanks. | |
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Location: Connecticut | So while all this psycho-analyzing was going on, the car sold for 150K !!!! Sheesh ! And the seller can rest easy knowing that he was up front about the changes made to the car.
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Location: Parts Unknown | carjock - 2008-06-12 8:57 AM
Sheesh, Doc, thanks for the psycho-analysis! I always knew there was something wrong with me because I get irritated when people pass opinion (researched or not) off as fact. But now that I know that I am in the company of rapists and serial killers, I feel much better! Must remember--"Neil knows his s**t", "Neil knows his s**t"---! And, "I am guilty of some offense if I disagree"! I think I've got it, by golly! Thanks.
******************************
Jimbo, ....
Little secret between you and me ....
( I wasn't referring to you ! ) .. or anyone else in particular.
Just stating some basic psychology 101
I guess if you feel the shoe fits then go ahead and own it.
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| Just funnin' ya', Doc--I don't take much personally these days. And how about that sale price--as I said quality and flash sells. This car oozes both of those. I'm really happy for the seller and believe the buyer got one of the best there is. | |
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Did the seller tell you anything about the new buyer?---Where He Lives, etc. Apparently He is loaded, as a friend of mine tells me He bought a Vette for about 250 Grand, not long ago.
Gary | |
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Location: NY & VT | Yeah it's those guys who are driving up prices to ridiculous heights and the average guy out of the hobby.. | |
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Location: Parts Unknown | firedome - 2008-06-13 7:23 AM
Yeah it's those guys who are driving up prices to ridiculous heights and the average guy out of the hobby..
**********************************
I want to be "one of those guys" !
I seem drawn to cubic dollar pits.
Where can I sign up ? | |
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| I haven't heard from Allen as to who actually ended up with the car, yet, but I'm sure that I will. As soon as I do, I will post the information here. And regardless of all of the discussion about the car here, I feel sort of like a "proud dad" since I was the one who had the car built and have a whole lot of myself invested in it. I just wish that I'd have gotten the same price that Allen did (LOL)! | |
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Location: .Norfolk..Mafia.. ,England UK | 1959Dodge - 2008-06-12 2:10 PM
Did the seller tell you anything about the new buyer?---Where He Lives, etc. Apparently He is loaded, as a friend of mine tells me He bought a Vette for about 250 Grand, not long ago.
Gary
GARY.. He is Loaded, As he SOLD the Vette for $250,000.. Also sellling These as Well
http://motors.search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ25QQsassZcannon772
Chances are he is a Dealer of Classic Cars and will put it in a BJ Auction, OR a Collector who Swaps his Collection about.. Either way he seems sure of the True Value.. | |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Location: .Norfolk..Mafia.. ,England UK | JIM.. You may see it again Soon, As he is located in Texas.... Probably sell it to you for £200,000 LOL..
Do you get the feeling you were Robbed when you Sold it... LOL
P.S......... What you done with Wild Bill....????????????
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Location: .Norfolk..Mafia.. ,England UK | Last post from previous page..
1959Dodge - 2008-06-12 2:10 PM
Did the seller tell you anything about the new buyer?---Where He Lives, etc. Apparently He is loaded, as a friend of mine tells me He bought a Vette for about 250 Grand, not long ago.
Gary
GARY.. He is Loaded, As he SOLD the Vette for $250,000.. Also sellling These as Well
http://motors.search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ25QQsassZcannon772
Chances are he is a Dealer of Classic Cars and will put it in a BJ Auction, OR a Collector who Swaps his Collection about.. Either way he seems sure of the True Value.. | |
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Yep, I think you are correct. He has sold several cars as well as a lot of parts, on Ebay.
Gary | |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I notice that the car's buyer/seller guy-dealer prominently displays the P/T plates on the 58 Caddie & 69 Fart that he's currently
selling.
I'd like to see his prior $250K Vette sale; Clive/someone, could you post a reference to that auction-site?
I'd like to see how well he advertized its condition, etc., and the bidding on it.
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Location: .Norfolk..Mafia.. ,England UK | d500neil - 2008-06-12 11:38 PM
I notice that the car's buyer/seller guy-dealer prominently displays the P/T plates on the 58 Caddie & 69 Fart that he's currently
selling.
I'd like to see his prior $250K Vette sale; Clive/someone, could you post a reference to that auction-site?
I'd like to see how well he advertized its condition, etc., and the bidding on it.
CAN,T...........
Ebay has Pulled the Link,, I tried using the Feedback from Buyer and Seller to access the Auction, Buts it says NOPE..... | |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Thanx; was afraid of that....
BTW, you get my PM w/pix to post, on that other thread, here? | |
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Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | Good Lord - I guess the guy's loaded.
That Caddy ain't a '58 & it ain't no ordinary Caddy - it's a '57 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham 4 door hardtop. The thing cost over $13,000 when new and came with everything standard, including a wet bar folded in the back w/crystal tumblers, ladies' vanity on passenger side w/perfume, memory set power seat, power trunk release, power hood release, POWER KEY IGNITION and a few other goodies I can't recall off the top of my head - suicide doors, yet it's a true hardtop.
These babies are practically unobtainum - yeah, that's the actual ebay photo:
Edited by 1955Coronado 2008-06-12 7:35 PM
 ('57 Eldorado Brogham.jpg)
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 '57 Eldorado Brogham.jpg (85KB - 181 downloads)
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | You know; for as much money as it can bring, at the B-J, and given, that it's NOT likely ever to be driven any great
distances on the open road, ever-again, I wonder why the seller-dealer-guy didn't go ahead and install the proper
www bias-ply tires on it, to enhance its vintage-restored appearance? | |
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Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | d500neil - 2008-06-12 4:51 PM
You know; for as much money as it can bring, at the B-J, and given, that it's NOT likely ever to be driven any great
distances on the open road, ever-again, I wonder why the seller-dealer-guy didn't go ahead and install the proper
www bias-ply tires on it, to enhance its vintage-restored appearance?
Well shoot - if the wheel covers are any indication, the above is indeed a '58.
But, it looks like the slim whites are indeed OEM though, Neil:
 ('57 Eldorado Brougham2.jpg)
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'57 Eldorado Brougham2.jpg (68KB - 141 downloads)
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I dunno; those look suspiciously like radial tires on it, but the setting sure is 50's.... | |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Those thin whitewalls were "cutting edge" styling on that car in 58. I think they look like sh-t, operating from the paradigm of radials and what would come to my beloved finned cars ten years hence. But they really were a style setting concept that was introduced on that car as very special equipment. | |
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Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | From what I know, that B&W pic is from an original sales brochure.
And, my mistake earlier, the Eldorado Brougham didn't have a power trunk release - it has a POWER TRUNK LID!!!!! Never seen it in action until now - check the video of the "power trunk" in action: Up and down:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBVx9ZnhXO8 | |
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Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | Alright, the seller's Eldo Brougham may be a '57 afterall - looks like the B&W pic above may be an EARLY ad using "regular" '56-'57 Eldorado wheels.
But, to help confirm the OEM-ness of the slim whites, here's a '57 Eldo Brougham pic at an intro show, 1957 (Brougham #2 off the line according to: http://www.car-nection.com/yann/Dbas_txt/brg09.htm):
 ('57 Eldorado Brougham3.jpg)
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Location: Under the X in Texas | The OEM tires originally on those cars were US Royal Masters and are bias ply. 9.20 /9.00 x 15. They were highly popular with customizers and hot rodders when still available back in the day. Kind of the supreme production tire of their day. They had a very large diameter - something like 29.5" and gave anything they were installed on a "presence". Some of us remember them because the sidewalls were kind of radially grooved both between the wheel and the whitewall and again from the whitewall to the tread. I have a set of four of these in the barn. Can photo one if anyone is curious. | |
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Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | StillOutThere - 2008-06-13 5:32 AM
The OEM tires originally on those cars were US Royal Masters and are bias ply. 9.20 /9.00 x 15. They were highly popular with customizers and hot rodders when still available back in the day. Kind of the supreme production tire of their day. They had a very large diameter - something like 29.5" and gave anything they were installed on a "presence". Some of us remember them because the sidewalls were kind of radially grooved both between the wheel and the whitewall and again from the whitewall to the tread. I have a set of four of these in the barn. Can photo one if anyone is curious.
I'm finding all this out as I go, as I've not done a whole lot of research on these cars (have never seen one in person, infact), but it looks like, from the original press portfolio released in late 1956, the original tire size was 8.40 X 15 - still a pretty beefy tire:
 ('57 Eldorado Brougham presser.jpg)
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'57 Eldorado Brougham presser.jpg (51KB - 143 downloads)
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I wonder if the 8.40X15" tires would be thinner cross section than the 9.00x14" tires used by CHRY/IMP ?
Taller, sure, but how-wide, cross-sectionally? | |
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Location: NY & VT | His Eldo has wheel covers while the brochure one has what I believe were called "Sabre" wheels - very early aluminum forged wheels that most Broughams had, including those I saw at Cad shows I went to back in my '47 Fleetwood 60-S days in the early '90s. | |
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