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Location: Upplands Väsby, Sweden |
I think I have see some pics at this DeSoto before at this site Forward Look
http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/carsforsale/desoto/unspecified/...
1958 DeSOTO FUEL-INJECTED ADVENTURER CONVERTIBLE "PILOT CAR"This 1 of 1 is the best DeSoto on the planet! The first 1958 DeSoto fi conv ever built! Only 1 of 5 ever produced, three known to exist! The only one that still retains its original fuel injection. From the Bill & Suzanne Turner Collection. SELLING AT NO RESERVE. Fort Lauderdale, Florida, Collector Car Public Auction, January 2, 3 & 4, 2009. For more infor, call Mike Flynn Jr. 800-237-8954.
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 13055
 
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | Aarggh - that is a rare car - yes there was a post about it Jocke! Even at "no reserve", I bet this will rocket to sky high price. |
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Posts: 1918
Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | Yep - a trailer queen if there ever was one. It's a virtual rolling museum..... |
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Location: The Mile High City | Interesting, I thought this car was owned and restored by a man named Tom White. There are many articles about the car. There is a strong argument that this is the best DeSoto on the planet and perhaps the greatest Forward Look car too, since it may be the only one with a working electronic fuel injection unit. At any rate, it could be worth upwards of $35,000!  |
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Location: The Mile High City | I wonder where the other two existing cars are (obviously they do not have the e.f.i. intact)? Even better, I wonder where the other two they don't know about are? Probably made into manhole covers long ago... |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7207
Location: Victoria, BC, on Vancouver Island, Canada | Lancer Mike - 2008-10-02 10:17 AM Interesting, I thought this car was owned and restored by a man named Tom White. There are many articles about the car. There is a strong argument that this is the best DeSoto on the planet and perhaps the greatest Forward Look car too, since it may be the only one with a working electronic fuel injection unit. At any rate, it could be worth upwards of $35,000! :laugh: Tom White's car is a White and gold version, and has been discussed a coupla times on the forum. This gold one purports to be all original Fuelie, so I wonder how well this one runs as the EFI units were completely unstable when running hot etc, and unreliable, which is why they were all recalled. The setup in Tom White's car was actually rebuilt using, I believe some more modern technology that would allow it to function properly. Someone try and find the original post on it ?
Edited by imopar380 2008-10-02 3:33 PM
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Location: The Mile High City | Hi, Ian: I think Tom White's car is just like this one as far as color scheme goes http://www.chrysler300club.com/jhstuff/fuelie/fuelie.html I would be surprised if this car at auction isn't one and the same... |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Location: .Norfolk..Mafia.. ,England UK | Lancer Mike - 2008-10-02 6:17 PM
At any rate, it could be worth upwards of $35,000! :laugh:
Mike , I think you may of Missed a Digit Out,,, ??????????????????????????? |
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Location: The Mile High City | Aw, heck Clive - I think it is worth a lot more than $3,500! $35,000 is a whole pile of cash these days! I was trying to figure if it is worth $35,000 dollars worth of $50 one-ounce gold coins. However, at today's close of $831.90 per ounce, I still don't think $582,330 would cover it!
What I can't figure out is why this isn't being auctioned at Barrett-Jackson or Sotheby's or some super-big time auction that brings in the crazy bids.
Edited by Lancer Mike 2008-10-02 6:20 PM
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Location: The Mile High City | Maybe this isn't Tom White's. Could there really be another??? If so, they haven't heard of Tom White's car, because they say this is the only one running the e.f.i. Can't be! This must be White's! |
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Location: Sept. 1958 | It is White's. I had heard he sold this car just recently. His car was the first Adventurer Convertible built. According to White, there's only 5 58 Adv. Conv. left, but in Dennis Adler's "Fifties Flashback The American Car", he states there are 11 known out of the 82 built on page 93.
Matt Dorschug |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: Victoria, BC, on Vancouver Island, Canada | Yeah, I must've had a brain lapse going on there..... |
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Location: Minneapolis | So is this or isnt this White's completely OVER-restored trailer queen?
Terrible market conditions to sell something like this. |
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Posts: 1302
Location: Skaneateles,NY(summer)/Port St.Lucie,FL(winter) | There's one at the DeSoto National Convention every year, and it isn't this one. It's is about the same condition, too... |
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Location: The Mile High City | Tony, is the one at the national convention an electronic fuel injection Adventurer convertible? I suppose another Adventurer convertible would be rare enough, but I thought there was only one car with a running bendix e.f.i. unit. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I know a person who may have three F.I. set-ups, with at least one of them being set up and operable, in a 300D, and with the other two units being complete assemblies.
I also kinda-recall that there may be at least one other fuelie unit that exists, which may not be installed in a car.
The 300D's had "Fuel Injection" embossed into their '300' emblems; all the other models, I think, shared the Kool "Fuel
Injection" chromed pot metal emblem, as is seen on the Adventurers.
On Dodges, that emblem reportedly was installed at the end of the quarter panel side molding---a very good location for
that emblem.
Edited by d500neil 2008-10-03 4:02 PM
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Location: The Mile High City | According to Colin Comer's article, there were 35 Bendix Electrojectors fitted to Chrysler Corporation products in 1958. All were recalled. Only one DeSoto equipped with it's original Electrojector is preported to survive. http://www.colinsclassicauto.com/domestic_affairs_0709.pdf From what I remember of Tom White's car, he bought the Adventurer, which had the Electrojector removed, then found an Electrojector in the estate of a former Chrysler executive or engineer. He bought the Electrojector and refurbished it with modern componentry. Any other operable Electrojector is a big news event! |
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Location: ct. | This is Tom White's former car as he sold it to a collector in Florida about 4 months ago. Apparently the collector is now selling it through an auction co. I wouldn't be surprised if it approaches one million dollars, although the timing may be bad due to the country's poor economic condition. |
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Posts: 2721
Location: Minneapolis | The timing is more than bad, its HORRIBLE. The market has been soft for a couple years now. The economy is bad and isnt really what would support a million dollar FL. Either the new buyer lost a ton on Wall Street and needs the cabbage or he just doesnt know anything about flipping cars. Half million, MAYBE. |
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Expert ,, George Passed away July 28th 2021, He will be Missed
Posts: 1295
Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Did you mean to say upwards of $350,000 ??? |
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Expert ,, George Passed away July 28th 2021, He will be Missed
Posts: 1295
Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Neil....
I am quite sure that car is a couple years away from being on the road and running. I saw it last fall in MT, where it is being restored and it wasn't even going to be media blasted until this spring or summer. It is Vin #1 and is a white car.
George
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Location: The Mile High City | Sorry, George - my jokes don't come over very well on the internet. I don't know what it will fetch, but like others have said, this is not the best time to sell. I would be surprised if it sold for more than $500,000. Has anyone ever heard of that auction house? |
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Posts: 2721
Location: Minneapolis | Thats another thing... the auction house. Is it in the high school gym? I am not a big auction guy (NOT in-the-know), but I aint NEVER heard of 'em! |
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Posts: 1302
Location: Skaneateles,NY(summer)/Port St.Lucie,FL(winter) | LancerMike,
The car that I spoke of is a 100% pristine runner...Concours condition... |
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Inactive by Request
Posts: 1292
Location: Lovely place | $500,000... Well, the DeSoto is really worth it if it comes with full tank of gas...  |
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Posts: 1918
Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | Sisu - 2008-10-06 12:29 AM
$500,000... Well, the DeSoto is really worth it if it comes with full tank of gas... ;)
That's only if it's going to be driven, not trailered..... |
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Location: The Mile High City | Who knows? I have a new theory that with the current credit crunch, economic meltdown, and energy crisis, we might see a bunch of these high-and-mighty cars on the block at bargain basement prices.
You want a '58 fuelie, there is one here. You want a '58 D convertible, you got it. I have never seen so many 300 G's for sale. This Adventurer auction might be a way for someone to pick up this one-of-a-kind pretty cheap. No reserve, remember.
$500,000? I might be out of touch with current market conditions. Given today's stock market freefall, the seller might be darn thankful to get $150,000. Tomorrow, that could be $100,000! |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | The general price of the E-Bodied Hemi cars has stabilized, or come down, the past several seasons.
The G's are coming out of the woodwork, enticed by the prospects of big bucks.
It might be too-late, now, to get the huge-bucks, on a car, but, maybe better-now-than-later (while on a recessionary
decline). Cash is KING, right now.
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Location: Parts Unknown | Where did the "pilot car" bit come from ? Is this car actually coded "pilot" instead of having a SCH code ? I spoke with Tom at some length about this car before he had confirmed it was a real F/I car. This was before he had done anything with it beyond dragging it home. He had a lot of ideas and hopes and went into great detail of how he hoped to rebuild it as an F/I car using the scattered parts inventory that occasionally came up for sale. I know the story about how he found the F/I set up he came to restore and build the electronic shielding for that he said was the original failing of these systems .....
... but I do not recall him mentioning anything about it being a pilot car. Where did this idea it is a pilot car come from ? I would think he would have mentioned it.
I find it hard to believe he sold that car. The new owner sure didn't hold on to it very long ! What's up with that ???? |
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Posts: 1302
Location: Skaneateles,NY(summer)/Port St.Lucie,FL(winter) | New owner either couldn't afford it, or GREED rears it's ugly head... |
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Posts: 6203
Location: Big pimpin' | When a car is that valuable......NOBODY cares about the car itself, only what it "Will bring".....AKA: GREED! |
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Location: NY & VT | It was Tom that brought the car to the conventions, before he sold it, and it was/is an awesome runner, since he updated the leaky capacitors in the ElectroJector unit with modern polypropylene ones and revised some of the circuitry and shielding also I am told. He was interviewed about this in some detail. The car also accelerates very slightly faster than a carb-ed model supposedly.
Edited by firedome 2008-10-07 1:32 PM
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Location: The Mile High City | If the motivation for selling this car is strictly opportunistic greed, the Ft. Lauderdale Collector Car Public Auction seems to be a most unusual choice. Throw in the fact that this truly fantastic car has no reserve and something is amiss. I wonder if the Turner's may have gone bankrupt or had their assets seized? But that doesn't make much sense because Florida has the strongest bankruptcy protection of any state! I don't know what is going on here, but my eyes will be on this auction come January 2, 2009! Could this car go for a song?
Edited by Lancer Mike 2008-10-07 4:58 PM
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Posts: 2721
Location: Minneapolis | A song like "Can't Touch This"?
Yeah, the timing, the venue, everything, just seems amiss. I wouldnt be surprised if it gets pulled. |
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Location: The Mile High City | Ha! Well, maybe going broke in Florida they would say "ok, mansion is protected but you have to sell either the car collection or the yacht, we can't protect them both." Doc, you have to suspend your campaign on the garage and get out to Florida in January (to hammer out a solution to this crisis). If you can pick up Tom's Superventurer for the same price as finishing the garage, you are going to be joining us on the cruise sooner than we thought - and what a ride you will have!
All this electrojector mumbo jumbo glosses over the real deal here: this car has a benrus clock and a hiwayhifi!!!  |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Heck, .... mine has a Benrus too !
You know, what I'd really like best about this car would be the opportunity to drive it in a place where it could really be cut loose. My Fireflite was a decent performer. My 56 Adventurer was also. My Coronet with the 440 is a serious barn burner. I would like to see how this Electrojector stacks up just for the experience. Tom's car is stunning and the F/I is the ultimate accessory. I would still take a Fireflite over an Adverturer just on paint and interior points alone. I like the pastel colors far more than I like the "performance" image. Besides, a name like "Fireflite" has it ALL OVER "Adventurer". Wasn't that a truck at one point ?  |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Brent, as seen in my Tulsarama pics, last Jun/07, highway #40 was not only a wide-open divided roadway,
with beautiful views, it was NOT heavily traveled, and I didn't see a whole lot of cops, anywhere on it, from CA to Tulsa!
Put the top down, and hang on! Hours of wide-open Western vistas!
That's where I'd like to drive that car. Somewhere west of Laramie!
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Location: The Mile High City | Only about a month to go on this one. Doc, are you heading out to Ft. Lauderdale? They have kept up the advertising blitz in Hemmings at least. I will be anxious to see what happens. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | The ground finally froze solid today, so the shovels are getting put away. I guess I have nothing better to do, right ? Now, where did I leave that suitcase full of green rectangles ? |
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Location: The Mile High City | How mucho, Muchacho? |
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Location: The Mile High City | Boy, that is a strange deal. I sent an e-mail to the Hollywood Wheels auction house inquiring about the results and no reply yet. I checked the web-site for Hollywood Wheels and they are not like other big auction house websites - no results page. If you were the owner of this car and went to auction of your own free will, why in the world would you not go with Barrett-Jackson, RM, Kruse, Southebys, or some large corporate auction house?
Do any of the Florida members know what happened?
Update: I just talked to a lady at Hollywood Wheels and they just drove in (to? from?) St. Petersburg, so she will get the results to me in the next few days. It almost sounds like a mom-and-pop operation!
Edited by Lancer Mike 2009-01-06 3:10 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | It was 55 degrees F, this morning @ 8AM'sville; 63 @ noon; dunno what the high temp was.
Brent, IIRC, the "Pilot Car" reference is to when the car was built, around August (maybe earlier), I think; as I seem to recall, the
Fuelie cars may have been built before the model year's general production run was commenced.
I'm too lazy/un-interested in going back and researching the car's build date.
Anyone here, know when it was built?
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Posts: 3967
Location: DFW, TX | I thought ALL the Bendix-injected '58 Mopars were considered "pilot cars." I'm fairly certain I've read that they were all super-early units and possibly hand-assembled off the line.
When they found out they didn't run worth a crap, they pulled them off the street and discontinued the option. Wouldn't that define a "pilot" program? |
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Location: Parts Unknown |
I say this as I learned it from 60's vintage GM cars ..... you can actually find data tags that list the build date code as "pilot". As it was explained to me, this meant the car was one of a possible few that were put together just as a test run to see if all the theory and parts actually bolted together OK before they started full-on production.
Most "pilot" cars did not bolt together well enough to be sold and were broken down or scrapped.
The 58 Adventurer did not come onto the production line until January of 1958 and were not available to the public until February, if memory serves. This puts them 180 degrees out of time with production start up for model year cars.
I have never heard of the term "pilot" applied to anything but the few, very rare cars that actually made it into the sales fleet and left the factory. These are clearly marked as such on the data tag.
I have never heard of ANY Mopar, let alone a Forward Look Mopar, that bears the "pilot" car designation on its data tag.
Could they exist ? I suppose. I am no expert. Just an old dog who knew a few oldtimers who showed and told me a few things.
As "pilot" car was defined to me - and I have personally seen these tags - this Adventurer does not fit the definition.
Any 58 Adventurer is the final word in rare DeSoto. Add in ragtop and it goes exponential from there. Fuel Injection ?
What can a person say but "Wow!" ?
I would sure like to see / hear / read the explanation / claim that supports this being a "pilot" car.
As it is, I'll just take it as a "plain old run-of-the-mill, bread-n-butter, garden variety" 58 Adventurer convertible with fuel injection !!!! |
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Location: Under the X in Texas | The first few cars of any new production are always "pilot" vehicles. Whether that is because it is the startup of the model year or a particular model or a major engineering package it takes a few "pilot" assemblies to get the thing going and steer the whole group forward into smooth running production. For example with the '57 Chrysler 300Cs which I have particular knowledge about, two pilot cars were built in September of '56, one car in October of '56, then there were NONE built in November so they apparently had some issues to work out!!!. December saw cars number four through fifty four built so one has to presume we are past pilot cars somewhere early in that month. Would it be legitimate to say that all the fuel injection '58 Mopars were pilot cars? I don't know if delivering almost two dozen 300Ds would qualify but the handful from each of the other marques certainly could. But until the advertising came out for THIS car for THIS auction, I had never seen the word pilot attached to any EFI '58 Mopar previously so the whole thing from that aspect is very suspect as being promotional unless they have some documentation to back it up. |
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Posts: 1918
Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | I remember reading years ago that there were approximately 35 or so MoPar fuelies for '58 - I wonder if any Dodges or Plymouths were so fitted? |
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Location: Under the X in Texas | When I first joined this group approx 9 years ago there was a fellow who had found a '58 Dodge in a gully and inquired of the list whether it was worth digging out because it was supposed to be an EFI car. We all discussed it with him and he VERIFIED the EFI was STILL ON THE CAR. So YES INDEED there is an EFI Dodge out there. Anyone remember the guys name or location? Oh, yeah, he did buy it and brought it home and started cleaning it up but I think he dropped out of sight within a year as I recall. Maybe we should check the consignment list for Barrett-Jackson??? |
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Posts: 1918
Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | Found in a gully? Wow - talk about right place/right time.
Yeah, if the book I read the '58 fuelie production estimate in named how many in each make, I've completely forgotten (hell, I can't even remember the book other than it was a hardcover - I must've been just 13-14-15 years old at the time), but I do remember that the pic shown as a fuelie example above the essay pretty much matches Tom White's '58 Adventurer above and that it stated the approx. 35 fuelie MoPars, so I assumed the fuelies were available all up & down the FL line, just hadn't seen any Dodges or Plymouths (hadn't seen any Chryslers so equipped until I joined here in June, 2007) yet.
You remember if it was a hardtop, ragtop or sedan, Wayne? Cool as hell if it's a 4 door sedan, as I love little oddities like that. I remember reading about the first year Olds made the 442 available - in 1965, when it was Olds' version of the D-500 (option for the Cutlass rather than model itself), there were indeed 211 1965 Olds 442 4 door sedans made that intro year! |
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Location: Under the X in Texas | As I recall the car was a two door hardtop in the gully. Hey, I went through my EFI file and found a couple of interesting things. One is a hnadwritten note on a photo copy of a many page factory brochure listing production. It says: 35 Chrysler 300s, 12 Dodges, 5 DeSotos, 2 Plymouths, 54 (Total) I don't know who wrote it so take it for whatever it is worth because not even the Chrysler number corresponds with what is in the production records that the 300 Intl Club has in their hands. Okay? |
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Posts: 2596
Location: Upplands Väsby, Sweden | I copy some pics from Actions site.
Looks like someone has changed welded at X frame? or.....
Have not seen this connection before I can remember.
Delicious car
Edited by Windsor59 2009-01-09 1:42 AM
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Location: Sweden | Anybody has an idea why its painted gloss pink in the bottom?
I saw this car on Chrysler at Carlisle 2004 and its a really nice car! I talked to Tom White and he told me a lot of interesting things
About the Adventurer!
Jorgen
Edited by 1960ny 2009-01-09 10:15 AM
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Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | StillOutThere - 2009-01-08 5:54 PM
As I recall the car was a two door hardtop in the gully. Hey, I went through my EFI file and found a couple of interesting things. One is a hnadwritten note on a photo copy of a many page factory brochure listing production. It says: 35 Chrysler 300s, 12 Dodges, 5 DeSotos, 2 Plymouths, 54 (Total) I don't know who wrote it so take it for whatever it is worth because not even the Chrysler number corresponds with what is in the production records that the 300 Intl Club has in their hands. Okay?
Crap - I bet that's where I got the "35" number from. Apologies for the mix-up.
Just out of curiosity, what kind of EFI numbers does the 300 club have? |
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Expert
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Location: Sept. 1958 | 1960ny - 2009-01-09 2:29 AM
Anybody has an idea why its painted gloss pink in the bottom?
I saw this car on Chrysler at Carlisle 2004 and its a really nice car! I talked to Tom White and he told me a lot interesting things
About the Adventurer!
Jorgen
I bet that is what the factory did. One thing I have noticed, FoMoCo cars of this era used few different colors on the underside and I believe they mixed left over paint that they had left since they wouldn't want to throw any of it out. I wouldn't doubt Mopar did the same, saves money. |
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Posts: 3967
Location: DFW, TX | I've got a really dumb question. Can you get those EFI badges from the aftermarket? |
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Location: The Mile High City | Called the auction house again, they said they would post the results on the webpage in the next few days. Not a particularly helpful bunch! |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | ...Danny, anything is possible, AND, almost-certainly, there are several "Fuel Injection" emblems that still exist, in attics
and basements, and boxes around the world.
The 1958 Dodges reportedly (or, mythologically!) had their "Fuel Injection" emblems installed on the foreshortened-end
of their quarter panel chrome moldings.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Couple things: I don't know about the existence of "DeSoto-Pink" floor pan primer, but, if this car WAS a 'Pilot' car,
it probably would not have had any undercoating be applied to it, because, the purpose OF a Pilot car is to check-out the assembly fit and finish on the new car, and undercoating would tend to hide valuable build-information on the car.
Also, on 'production' cars (and, probably, on Pilots, too??) , the body-color(s) got over-sprayed onto the floor pans, in the Paint Stations/booths.
Maybe THIS car got its pink-primer as PART of its 'Pilot'-build, and, maybe, the factory might have masked-off the undercarriage when this car was being hand-built....?
Edited by d500neil 2009-01-12 7:30 PM
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Location: Parts Unknown | There was nothing "pilot" about a standard convertible body built in January of 1958. If it had a build date of September 57, then it could very well be a "pilot". The only thing to test fit and "pilot" on the late-intro Adventurer was seat material, side trim inserts and decklid bars, 150 speedo, stiffer springs, and some bolt-on engine components. Since most of this stuff was standard issue in 57 and on some other models, it hardly warranted a "pilot" run.
By the time the 1958 Adventurer went into production, this convertible body had been built without modifications for a year and a half for both Chrysler and DeSoto (since late 1956) for a total of several thousand convertibles. ...... 57 300, NY'er, Windsor, Adventurer, Fireflite, Firedome ....58 300, NY'er, Windsor, Adventurer, Fireflite, Firesweep.
All Adventurers were built in Detroit and had grey underbody paint. I am wondering if the camera did not tweak grey into pink ? My camera likes to do that when a flash or super bright light is present.
If this car was anything of a production "pilot", such status revolved around it being fitted with the details that set an Adventurer apart from a comparable Fireflite. The computer build card should clearly indicate if this was a "pilot" car for Adventurer production. I am most curious to see how this (or any FL Mopar) was documented as a "pilot" car. |
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Location: DFW, TX | d500neil - 2009-01-12 6:17 PM
...Danny, anything is possible, AND, almost-certainly, there are several "Fuel Injection" emblems that still exist, in attics
and basements, and boxes around the world.
The 1958 Dodges reportedly (or, mythologically!) had their "Fuel Injection" emblems installed on the foreshortened-end
of their quarter panel chrome moldings.
Neil,
I'm sure there are some, but there is really no way to find or buy them. I think the Chryslers used a special "fuel injection" version of the standard 300D quarter panel medallion. That would mean that none of them would have the interesting, almost "googie" styling of this DeSoto badge.
Did Plymouths and Dodges use the same badge as DeSoto? Or did they have their own?
I'd like to find replicas of the DeSoto EFI badges if there are any.. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | For what it is worth, ... I have the gold "star" part for one.
B. |
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Location: DFW, TX | Brent, do you have a gold star for one that you would consider selling?  |
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Location: Grenoble - France | 57burb - 2009-01-13 4:14 PM
Did Plymouths and Dodges use the same badge as DeSoto? Or did they have their own?
The parts book indicates the same parts for Plymouth, Dodge and DeSoto.
- NAME PLATE Fuel Injection, LP2, LD2-D500, LD3-D500, LS3-S, 1958, #1832038 (2 per car)
- BASE Fuel Injection Name Plate, LP2, LD2-D500, LD3-D500, LS3-S, 1958, #1832039 (2 per car)
Edited by Imp58Alpes 2009-01-13 1:02 PM
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Location: DFW, TX | Does anyone have any ideas on how to take those two part numbers and do a search of obsolete inventory? Or do any collectors have a set (two each) that they would be willing to sell? I just LOVE those.. and I want to run a Hilborn injector on my 392... |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | The confuser 'got' the gas tank as being a silver-gray, and the tail pipes and mufflers, and chassis in their
correct shades; why would anyone photo-chop the floor pans, into pink?
And, regardless of its body-metal, do "we" know when this car was actually built?
From Darrel Davis' historical Society research, we DO know that "Scheduled" build dates, and even engine-numbers, are NOT
absolutely relevant as to a car's actual IBM-Card-confirmed BUILD date.
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Location: Parts Unknown | 57burb - 2009-01-14 7:57 AM
Brent, do you have a gold star for one that you would consider selling? :)
Danny - I am with you, .... these rank right up there with the Forward Look emblem themselves as being the ultimate fender badge. There is nothing I would like better than to see these re-popped. I would consider offering it up as part of a repro project.
I could even spearhead the machine work. The missing link is an impression or super tight specs on the chrome "bubble bar" with the letters. If someone had the goods on that part to put into the computer, we'd be off to the rodeo.
Oh yeah, .... and a little $$
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Doc, it's not the First of April yet (only, FEELS that way in CA...) ; but wouldn't you feel like a counterfeiter/forger
if the Fuelie emblems were to be re-popped? |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Huh ? Why would reproducing these be any different than repopping floor pans or hubcap centers or anything else ?
I am a little envious of the Mustang and tri-five Chev guys who can buy anything for their car brand new. I have a box of Adventurer Powered tags that were repopped for the 59 cars. If it is some sort of "abuse" you are concerned with, it does not seem to me that I have seen these showing up on every 59 DeSoto. In fact, I cannot think of the last time I saw a car wearing them, yet I have seen plenty with dual quads put on.
What is your angle ?
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | I wished you were "Dr Dodge". I would love to have the D500 badges on my car--not because my car is / was ever a D500. I like the looks of them, and I as I said before, I like to show the folks out there, What Dodge was capable of doing in 59, even thou for "Some", my car is not "Politically Correct"!!!!
Many ask me, Did Dodge really offer twin four barrels in 59. Did they offer the swing out seats? They are amazed when I tell them yep.
Gary |
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Location: DFW, TX | d500neil - 2009-01-14 8:22 PM
Doc, it's not the First of April yet (only, FEELS that way in CA...) ; but wouldn't you feel like a counterfeiter/forger
if the Fuelie emblems were to be re-popped? Oh good lord Neil. They haven't made this crap in 50 years, and it basically never existed when it was new. Really, who cares? At this point can we just enjoy the cars? I would think there is still enough documentation avaiable to easily pinpoint some kind of a faked or a clone Bendix car.
I just want a badge to run on my car that is a nod to Mopar's ancient legacy... not that anyone but me would care or know what it represents. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Yeah, following your logic, Brent, if I had a real Fuelie-Chubbie, I guess that I'd have to feel real good about all
the clone-fuelies running around, too.
I am very glad that re-popped emblems are not yet readily available--THAT's my "angle".
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Location: Parts Unknown |
I hear what you are saying. I vascillate between doing it "just so" ..... can be interpreted as 100% OEM correct, or any variation of available options not originally sold on my car ..... down to just doing it as I like it and dealing with the ensuing wrath of those who will accuse me of "misrepresentation" or worse.
The bottom line for me is that I am getting too old to do this car for someone else. I am going to build it as I want it. And what I want is something way out there in Googieland, with all the boomerangs and sputnik gadgets I can hang on it without it going overboard and looking like a 58 Impala with clashing chrome going every which way with no apparent design theme.
Those F/I tags are outstanding in their Googie design, and fit tastefully into the overall design of the 58 DeSoto. Since I would sooner pull my teeth out than ever show this (or any) car competitively, I really could not care less if it is correct to my car. Is it being suggested I should remove the power seat, windows, steering wheel clock, certified speedo, GGA generator, and everything else I have added to the car because it is nothing but a fraud ? The floors and trunk pan and various other lower body sheetmetal is 59. Should I take it back out so I don't step on the toes of those who own 59's ? I think not.
I come from a very different "place" in why I own cars like this. My reasoning is pretty simple, I love seeing old cars still going down the road and being used for their original purpose. Be it Farmer Brown or Yuppie Trevor, if the car is being used for hauling a bale of hay or grocery shopping, this will always place higher than some polished trailer queen at a car show, angling for some meaningless ribbon or landfill trophy in my eyes.
If some high falootin' technical nerd wants to go to the mat over some F/I tags, my attitude is simply this .... show me another DeSoto (or any other genuine F/I car) still out on the road for the public to see. Anyone else could have bought my car before I did. But they didn't. Now these people that did not buy my car are going to get bent over how I build the car ? This is no fuelie Chev .... it is an example of a car most people (even Mopar buffs) will likely never see another example of. I know I would be thrilled to death just to see one rolling down the road !
Explaining the tags to the critic will be no different than explaining the 60 shifter and R-G 5-speed or the disc brakes. Yer right, you could not get F/I on a Fireflite. But it is MY car. I want it to look "period", but not so strangled with "rules" that it can't be MY car. If anyone ever pries it from my cold, dead fingers, they can deal with such "inaccuracies" at that time. In the meantime, it will be a nicely understated Mopar flagship car that will get to be enjoyed by those who just see it going down the backroads of America.
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Location: DFW, TX | Neil, I'm gonna make you a "Neil Injected" badge for your Dodge! |
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Location: Big pimpin' | d500neil - 2009-01-15 6:56 PM
Yeah, following your logic, Brent, if I had a real Fuelie-Chubbie, I guess that I'd have to feel real good about all
the clone-fuelies running around, too.
I am very glad that re-popped emblems are not yet readily available--THAT's my "angle".
Thing is, with the Fuelie Chebbies, there's NO way to know if it is legit or NOT! |
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Location: Florida | Looks like there was a final winning bid price on the FI Adventurer - from the Old Cars Weekly website - www.oldcarsweekly.com
"One of several noteworthy sales was the 1 of 5 DeSotos produced with fuel-injection, this being a 1958 Adventurer convertible that sold for $475,000 — most likely a world record paid for any DeSoto." |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | AND, I would say that around $.5MIL IS a "fair" market value, for this car.
Think that it's gonna ever be driven very much?
Chaney; doesn't Generic Motors have any "Build Cards", etc., available that can confirm a Fuelie's
provenance???
Edited by d500neil 2009-01-22 7:00 PM
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Location: The Mile High City | Sounds like a little bit of a snub there! I bet whomever bought it from White paid more than that and took a loss on this sale. World record for any DeSoto - sheesh! That's the best thing about DeSoto - just like Rodney Dangerfield - they don't get no respect! I love it. |
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Location: Parts Unknown |
This is what happens when the dollar value exceeds the value of the machine as a car .... it ceases to be a car and becomes something of a paperweight. 
I did Buicks before I discovered Mopar and ultimately settled on DeSoto. My Buicks (58-59-60) were pretty cool cars in their own right, but tell someone you drive a Buick and there is no response. Tell them you drive a DeSoto and the reaction is immediate.
Besides having a few really great cars, the name itself was a major attraction for me.
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Location: Fleetwood, Pa | I talked to Tom White this past year at the Fall Hershey meet. We happened to be discussing his 58 Fuelie Desoto and why he decided to sell. He did disclose to me the he got "well over $500,000 for the car. I didn't have the nerve to ask him the exact price. I figured he might not take kindly to me being that inquisitive. Tom has always been very nice to me and I'd like to keep it that way. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Hi, Bob! Welcome aboard; what parts do ye hail from?
I hadn't realized that Tom had sold the car; wonder why its second owner wanted, or had-to, sell it, in THIS 'down'
market, right now (like, he NEEDED the money, dummy!) ?
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | 2nd owner needed a tax write off, we know he bought it for well over 500 grand , and sold it for 475 Grand |
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Location: Fleetwood, Pa | Thanks Neil. When I talked to Tom, he was under the impression that there would be a reserve on the car.....somewhere around $675,000. According to Tom that's the least the new owner would let it go for....I'm assuming he was looking to make a cool $100,000 profit. I don't know what transpired between Oct. '08 and the auction date but apparently someone convinced the owner to drop the reserve, so he ended up losing $100,000!!! Easy come, easy go I guess. All I knowis..... if I owned that car, all the money in the world wouldn't have convinced me to sell!!! |
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Location: Fleetwood, Pa | BTW, I'm located outside of Reading, Pa. I'm fairly new to the Forward Look craze.......In Oct. '08 I purchased a 57 Plymouth Belvey. Just a real nice driver........which is exactly what I plan on doing with it!!!!! I'm looking forward to the Chryslers at Carlisle event........unlike past years I'll actually be able to bring my own ride to the show!! |
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Location: Orlando | My dad just had a high-dollar car restored (not forwarlook, but the first Jag xk120 imported to the USA.) Took two years and a LOT of money (He has owned the car since '85.) Immediately after he got it back from the shop, he put over 1500 miles on it in about 3 weeks!!! We're talking about a car worth between $300k-400k. I have to admit that I would not have the guts to do it.
Anyway, if any of you guys are going to be @ the Amelia Island Concourse this year, you'll see it there |
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Location: The Mile High City | Hi, Bob:
Welcome to the best little Forward Look site on the web! I have been wondering about this car an if it was a forced sale. After all, Florida is the bankruptcy capitol of the U.S. I have no idea what the actual circumstances of the sale are, but knowing what we know about this car, you have to wonder... |
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| In Hemmings there was some commentary, covering a recent auction, to the effect that the financial implosion has deeply affected the high end collector car market. As an example they cited a (57-59?) Imperial convertible that dropped more than $100K since it last changed hands in 2006.
I wish the cost of restoring these cars were dropping along with their resale value. HA!
Sparky |
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Location: Parts Unknown | The whole concept of driving them vs. trailer queens is what separates the proverbial "men from the boys" in my opinion. And I say this from the unique perspective of having my car creamed-out while on my way to a rockabilly show. I believe it was Leslie's band. It takes cojones to take all that sweat and ka-ching out there into the ring with the idiot drivers. But if you don't ...... what exactly is the point in getting out of bed ?
Money and passion are relative entities. Some of us are endowed with more of one than the other, some more than others.
When this car was over-restored from what looked like a decent original car, it had to be in the mind of of Mr. White that such a level of overkill was most likely going to relegate it to the "scrap heap" of garage floor paperweights, just another line on a spreadsheet inventory of some car collection and not someone's passionately loved prize. It became more about the money than the car. A sad end to a glorious vehicle. Granted, it is here and not gone forever, but it is placed so high on a pedestal that its eventuality has proven a close second.
If I were possessed with stupid money, this car would get a color change and a lot of bugs, dirt, and rock chips along the backroads to every small town I could visit. I only wish I had such disposable income. These cars deserve a better end than static display.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | It takes a morally dedicated, or stupid, and/or very rich person consciously to depreciate his own considerable financial
investment, in restoring a rare desirable car, to proceed to drive and enjoy it, as it was originally built and intended to
be used .
Given that this car may be an extremely valuable 1-of-1 convertible, I personally have no problems with the car being
returned to new condition, and never-again being seriously driven.
Jay Leno (who obviously meets several of the above criteria) takes the enviable position that he'll drive his cars until they 'need'
a restoration, and then, he'll re-restore them .
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Location: Parts Unknown | I am with Jay (sans cubic dollars), ... I will restore my car again and drive it. Not quite a F/I Adventurer ragtop, but hard to come closer.
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Location: The Mile High City | Whether a car is totally restored or on the brink of the inoperable abyss, if it sits for more than a few months - it magically turns into junk! Even in this thread, there was some discussion about whether this DeSoto even worked or not! I love to look at them, but they are not like a painting you place on the wall - they have functionality. If you lose the functionality, the car (or its owner) is missing a piece of the puzzle.
I know a man in Denver (he sold me my '58 Dodge Royal Lancer sedan) who drives his fully restored Auburn Boat-Tail Speedster around the streets of Denver. This isn't a reproduction. |
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Location: The Mile High City | Looks like it is back on the block. This time by Mecum at auction in California - should be fun to watch... http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_detail.cfm?LOT_ID=CA0810-96539&entryRow=103
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efi adventurer 01.jpg (70KB - 232 downloads)
efi adventurer 02.jpg (28KB - 304 downloads)
efi adventurer 03.jpg (28KB - 194 downloads)
efi adventurer 04.jpg (34KB - 203 downloads)
efi adventurer 05.jpg (30KB - 204 downloads)
efi adventurer 06.jpg (40KB - 181 downloads)
efi adventurer 07.jpg (47KB - 338 downloads)
efi adventurer 08.jpg (36KB - 307 downloads)
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Location: The Mile High City | Max sent me the link. He says this may not be Tom White's car! Could there possibly be a twin out there? |
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Location: Fleetwood, Pa | I'm 99.9% positive that this "was" Tom White's car!! They just aren't producing these anymore......... |
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Location: somerville mass | it'll sell for $1.000.000 ...... if mecum sold a 1965 cobra daytona coupe for 7.2 mil! tom white , unless anyone
knows, lives here in mass! hopkinton... so he sold it... well, it's a buyer's market... you cant drive a car this rare...
strictly a trailer queen! |
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Location: Fleetwood, Pa | Tom had his "freshly restored" 59 Plymouth Sport Fury convertible in the 2009 Fall Hershey "car corrral" and show. He doesn't fall in love with them. He bought the 59 a couple of years ago at a Carlisle event. I remember looking at the car prior to him purchasing it. He remarked at Hershey that this Plymouth was the "most rust free and straight forward look Mopar he has ever seen"..........hard to believe, since he's had some real beautiful cars.... |
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Location: The Mile High City | Last time it was up for auction in Florida, it sold for $475,000. But that was a no-name auction house. Even with Mecum running the show, I would be surprised to see it sell more than $725,000. |
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Location: Plymouth Spaceport | Boy! if I had to chose a dream car this would be it! or a 1958 Fury with F.I.
Unfortunately for myself and most Forward Look lovers here,it would require Jay Lenos bank roll to own this thing.
Man,is it sure a beauty! those fuel injection emblems are so cool!
Edited by 1960DesotoAdventurer 2010-07-08 4:35 PM
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Location: Plymouth Spaceport | imopar380 - 2008-10-02 3:26 PM
Lancer Mike - 2008-10-02 10:17 AM Interesting, I thought this car was owned and restored by a man named Tom White. There are many articles about the car. There is a strong argument that this is the best DeSoto on the planet and perhaps the greatest Forward Look car too, since it may be the only one with a working electronic fuel injection unit. At any rate, it could be worth upwards of $35,000! :laugh: Tom White's car is a White and gold version, and has been discussed a coupla times on the forum. This gold one purports to be all original Fuelie, so I wonder how well this one runs as the EFI units were completely unstable when running hot etc, and unreliable, which is why they were all recalled. The setup in Tom White's car was actually rebuilt using, I believe some more modern technology that would allow it to function properly. Someone try and find the original post on it ?
Wasnt the big problem with the electronic module the electrolytic capacitors? I think I read somewhere that modern day capacitors are much better and can handle the heat generated under the hood. |
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Location: Williams California | That is an incredible restoration!!
---John |
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Location: Austria, Vienna | http://www.58-adventurer.com/tw.htm here is a link Tom sent me on his Desoto. He still owns it and after I compared both of them I think it is his car is for sale on the Auction. But market is very bad now and last Mecums did not surprise at all. But they have Ferrary GT 250 for sale on it as well which will draw a lot attention.
You remember red/white 59 CRL vert was on eBay sometime ago and guy wanted 170k - it is for sale on this auction as well along with some hard tops and vert Chryslers. So outcome - I would not be too much optimistic and would be surprised if it hits 300k.
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Location: The Mile High City | Thanks for posting that link, Max! I found that site once, but could not find it again! This auction will be very interesting: I would be very surprised if it sold at a loss from $475,000! Less than $300,000 would be astounding for this one-of-a-kind car. Really, it depends on the auctioneer and promotion efforts. I must admit, they could hype it up a lot more in the website description.
I think there are a bunch of articles on how White got that EFI unit running and you can find them using Max's link. As far as I know, this is the world's ONLY running Forward Look EFI unit in an original EFI car.
Edited by Lancer Mike 2010-07-08 5:18 PM
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Location: CA | Jay Leno is out "driving" one of the few surviving Turbine cars.. I tend to agree with Doc here. This stuff shouldn't be reserved only for the top paying bidder who can afford it, that's retarded. There is no way in the world I believe cars like this weren't stuffed away in dark cold garages. I don't view any car as worth that not even a 1 of 1. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | LOL....all that time/money/sweat/tears spent in restoring this car, and someone decided to paint-over the
asphaltic trunk sound deadener panels, rather than to replace them with proper panels, or, to (re-)paint
them (very difficult to do, btw) to replicate their proper OEM appearance.
Bet that those panels swallowed up a whole-bunch of gold paint, before they acquired their uniformly-gold color!
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Location: Plymouth Spaceport | 57burb - 2009-01-09 5:58 PM
I've got a really dumb question. Can you get those EFI badges from the aftermarket?
Maybe moparmel makes them!
I know he's on eBay selling repro forward look emblems for fury back seats! |
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Location: Sept. 1958 | d500neil - 2010-07-08 8:26 PM
LOL....all that time/money/sweat/tears spent in restoring this car, and someone decided to paint-over the
asphaltic trunk sound deadener panels, rather than to replace them with proper panels, or, to (re-)paint
them (very difficult to do, btw) to replicate their proper OEM appearance.
Bet that those panels swallowed up a whole-bunch of gold paint, before they acquired their uniformly-gold color!
Do you mean the trunk lid insulation??? If so, what color should it be? I know. |
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Location: Plymouth Spaceport | Doctor DeSoto - 2009-01-23 1:35 AM
This is what happens when the dollar value exceeds the value of the machine as a car .... it ceases to be a car and becomes something of a paperweight.
I did Buicks before I discovered Mopar and ultimately settled on DeSoto. My Buicks (58-59-60 ) were pretty cool cars in their own right, but tell someone you drive a Buick and there is no response. Tell them you drive a DeSoto and the reaction is immediate.
Besides having a few really great cars, the name itself was a major attraction for me.
I agree,I love seeing these cars being driven and enjoyed.
To me that's the ultimate "car show" seeing a set of fins sweep by an jet away into the distance.
I love driving a Forward Look car as a daily driver and am glad it's still possible to get deals out there.
I love those 1959 Buicks too! To me that's the closest generic motors ever got to Exners designs.
You're lucky to have a DeSoto convertible,I love the sweep of the fins and the way the whole rear end bumper And tailights design is integrated.
So much thought and imagination was put into the cars! |
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Location: Plymouth Spaceport | Doctor DeSoto - 2009-01-13 11:52 PM
57burb - 2009-01-14 7:57 AM
Brent, do you have a gold star for one that you would consider selling? :)
Danny - I am with you, .... these rank right up there with the Forward Look emblem themselves as being the ultimate fender badge. There is nothing I would like better than to see these re-popped. I would consider offering it up as part of a repro project.
I could even spearhead the machine work. The missing link is an impression or super tight specs on the chrome "bubble bar" with the letters. If someone had the goods on that part to put into the computer, we'd be off to the rodeo.
Oh yeah, .... and a little $$
I've always wondered why the forward look twin boomerang emblem wasn't use more,I have a pair saved from a silver special.
That fuel injection emblem stands on it's own as a work of art.
I'd like to know who designed it. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Matt, the OEM color-appearance of those asphaltic deadener panels can vary with the models/years and
may even vary within the model years.
Usually, they have a sort of mottled appearance, rather than having a completely uniform coloration, and a
lot of them have a dark brownish color, but I've got photos of light-ish colored deadener panels, as well.
I've got quite an extensive collection of open trunk photos (kinky, I know) showing their appearances.
From all my observations, those liners were inserted when the outer and the inner sections of the trunk were
mechanically crimped together (no welding), and there was some sort of masking paper, which was either already
installed onto the panels, or, some sort of masking was applied over them, when the trunks were painted, because
you will see no evidence of overspray on the panels, but, on some of them you WILL see paint-runs/dribs/drabs which were
left/deposited onto the panels, when something was removed, or separated from those panels, right after the trunks were painted.
Edited by d500neil 2010-07-09 3:53 PM
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Location: Sept. 1958 | d500neil - 2010-07-09 3:50 PM
Matt, the OEM color-appearance of those asphaltic deadener panels can vary with the models/years and
may even vary within the model years.
Usually, they have a sort of mottled appearance, rather than having a completely uniform coloration, and a
lot of them have a dark brownish color, but I've got photos of light-ish colored deadener panels, as well.
I've got quite an extensive collection of open trunk photos (kinky, I know) showing their appearances.
From all my observations, those liners were inserted when the outer and the inner sections of the trunk were
mechanically crimped together (no welding), and there was some sort of masking paper, which was either already
installed onto the panels, or, some sort of masking was applied over them, when the trunks were painted, because
you will see no evidence of overspray on the panels, but, on some of them you WILL see paint-runs/dribs/drabs which were
left/deposited onto the panels, when something was removed, or separated from those panels, right after the trunks were painted.
Neil-
I have had this conversation with people in the Edsel club and I know what FoMoCo did. And I would have just figured that Mopar would have done it the same as FoMoCo products of that era since that way is the most efficient way to do it on an assembly line. There trunk and hood insulations are body color, the insulation piece was put in the inner and outer panels before it was crimped just like this Desoto, then it was crimped down. Also, they never put anything over the insulation to mask the paint/overspray.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Unfortunately, for FWDLK'ers, and probably other-years, but, being very specific here, the factories never painted-over
(intentionally!---lolol) the deadener panels.
There is/was no such thing as OEM body-colored deadener panels.
MAYBE the reason for not painting over the deadener panels was that early-on the CORP determined that those panels just
swallow-up paint, before they get to become uniformly covered....and that the best thing to do (to save time&money)
was to have them be masked off.
Comparison images of owner-oversprayed deadeners, and various OEM examples of pristine, and not-so-pristine condition
deadeners is fairly conclusive about the fact that the deadeners were not supposed to receive any OEM paint on them.
I just don't know how the deadener panels were masked off, at the Painting Station.
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Location: The Mile High City | August 13 - 14! I have to keep my eyes on this one. |
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Location: The Mile High City | We are getting near now! I have re-thought some of my earlier posts. I think Max is more on target with the potential price of this car. The bubble has truly burst! I hope I am wrong, but I would be surprised if this one-of-a-kind gem tops $250,000 in bidding! |
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Posts: 118
Location: Nawth Kerolinuh | Top bid -- $375,000 -- no sale. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | A beautiful car doomed to life as a paperweight.
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Posts: 1728
Location: Fleetwood, Pa | Not if I win the powerball!!!! I'll drive the darn thing!!! All over too......... |
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Expert
Posts: 1728
Location: Fleetwood, Pa | Not if I win the powerball!!!! I'll drive the darn thing!!! All over too......... |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | And, as a mobile sculpture, or a paperweight, this car's mechanical condition will (continue to) deteriorate,
as all cars benefit from being operated regularly, and this puppy ain't gonna be operating any time soon.
...Power-balls notwithstanding.
Edited by d500neil 2010-08-15 2:18 PM
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Location: The Mile High City | The auction result is no great surprise. Great time to buy, rotten time to sell! |
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Location: Parts Unknown | sidesho_bob1961 - 2010-08-16 5:50 AM
Not if I win the powerball!!!! I'll drive the darn thing!!! All over too.........
*****************************************
I would like the opportunity to give this thing a good shaking out on a track or road trip. I am
well acquainted with the performance of the 58 Fireflite. I would like to experience just what a
fuelie Adventurer delivered for the money.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | ...About the same as for the dual carb version--the AFB's wouldn't/won't wash-out on curves, like the
WCFB's did/do.
Was the F.I. supposed to regulate the flow of gas, into the car, under load (hard acceleration)? If so,
there might not be as much wasted fuel going into the car, as might be dumped by a carb or two,
so, maybe (given the 50's technology) there would be better throttle response, but, unless you're
dragging the car, I doubt that the fuelie would provide any significant performance benefit, out in
the Real-World, where you wouldn't be using its "extra" gross HP, over that of the dualie-carb cars.
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Location: Parts Unknown | I am not one to pound my cars, .... no smoking tires or stomping on the gas. But I do like a nice, stiff
lift off. I was pleasantly surprised to find my car, even in standard form and tired, moved out pretty good
given that it weights 5400 lbs. It did even better after I rebuilt the engine. Of course, that is with a single
4bbl and a few tricks the factory didn't incorporate in 58. It would be fun to see how a comparable car would
do with that EFI unit. I would not expect jet propulsion, but would be neat to experience. |
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Posts: 3155
Location: NY & VT | Way off, weighs 4100# according to Standard Catalog of Old Cars, add 100# or so for fluids. My 'Sweep weighed 3769 on the local truck scale. |
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Location: The Mile High City | This car was in my Hemmings Motor News this month. It is again for sale through yet another auction. I did not note when or where the auction is this time, but it seems as though this car's future is set: auction to auction to auction to auction...
Oh, the were definitely pumping up the "pilot car" idea. There was a full page advertisement with the De Soto "Pilot Car" above a gold and white GMC Palamino "Pilot Truck". http://seeyouontheblock.com/
Edited by Lancer Mike 2011-10-06 3:50 PM
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 (1958%20Desoto%20Adventurer.jpg)
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1957%20GMC%20Palamino.jpg (87KB - 167 downloads)
1958%20Desoto%20Adventurer.jpg (56KB - 321 downloads)
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Location: Parts Unknown | Yeah, ... we've been all over this "pilot car" subject. Pilot cars were pre-production
work-out-the-bugs cars built to ensure all the production line set up was going to work
OK. Ford did it. GM did it. It was standard production line procedure. They were limited
to just a few cars and were generally pulled off to the side, fixed for any problems, and
were rarely sold to the public. If the problems were too much of a bother, they got junked.
DeSoto production began late for the 58 model year, but theproduction of the Adventurer
began MONTHS after that production line had been started up making 58's. It is HIGHLY
unlikely that this is a pilot car. The factory would never have kept a car around for 3 months
and THEN built it up as an Adventurer. Or would they ? It just does not make sense. When
they needed a big body ragtop, they would have done up a build sheet and hung the special
pieces on it and voila! ... an Adventurer ragtop.
If this is the very first one made / mocked up, that is a different bird. But it is NOT a pilot car.
I'd like to see whatever documentation supports such a claim. For that matter, I'd love to see
a data tag that reads "PILOT" where the sequence number should be, with a ridiculously early
build date, and the CHS paperwork to verify it. Then we'd have one crazy story about how
DeSoto built a car and then either mothballed it or fiddled with it for 3 months before deciding
to sell it.
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Expert
Posts: 1730
Location: Michigan | Having worked all my life for the big three, using the statement "it does not make sense" should not be made with these companies in the same paragraph. Some of the things I have seen done defy logic.
I am not even sure if pre-production as we called them, not 'Pilot', cars had vin plates. If you mean a show car these were rarely driven and mostly trailered and stored in large garage's. They were rarely road worthy. Mule vehicles were driven to death and then scrapped, these were rarely beauties as they were used to test internal features and functions on a previous model's body.
I don't know what a Pilot car is and doubt there would ever be any sort of documentation or markings to indicate it as Pilot. They didn't keep documentation like that. Exec's just ordered it done and the guys in mock up got the parts and built it. If for some reason it could / was sold to the public you would get a letter saying this vehicle is sold AS IS without warranty, without much else to identify the vehicle as more than 'Used'.
So since you can't prove any of these statements it puts the whole value of the vehicle in question. For all we know some factory brat got a prototype injection system out of mock up and put it on his Desoto rag top and claimed all of this was true... to turn his ride into something really 'valuable' for some rich sucker to buy. We may never know the truth. |
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Posts: 4044
Location: Connecticut | Typical auction house puffery. " Let's spread a rumor that this car is extra-special so that some fool with more money than brains will buy it at a premium, thinking it's a million dollar car." The car is still owned by the guy that bought it from Tom White. He hasn't been able to sell it for more than he paid for it. Ron
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Roger, I haven't seen that 4,100 lb. weight, that you reference, from the "Standard Catalog", but, I'll bet that it is referencing the "shipping
weight" of the Adventurer or a Fireflite.
The advertised Shipping Weights on our cars bear very little relationship to reality.
I'll bet that your Firesweep's "shipping weight" was a lot less than the 3,769 lbs that you recorded on a truck scale.
I do know that the Dodges had grossly under-reported "shipping weights".
I've never had the opportunity to weigh my own car, but would love to do so, sometime.
I don't have the "Standard Catalog", here, but I checked with "The Complete Book of Collectable Cars", and find that
the Adventurer vert would have a weight of 4,235 lbs; I'll bet that that weight is a lot higher than its published
"Shipping Weight".
I checked the 57 Dodge Custom Royal, and its weights are listed at between 3,670 - 3,810.
Edited by d500neil 2011-10-09 11:15 PM
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| As you can see at the cowl tag, It don't have the correct color.
The tag says code "XXX" so it was all white.I really want to see
a copy of the "build card" because I don't think it has the fuel
injection from the factory either.
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Location: Parts Unknown | Mark,
I have seen with my own eyes several GM cars that displayed the word "PILOT" on the data
tag where the build sequence number would normally go. The car that sticks in my mind is
a 67 SS 427 convertible that my old friend John bought out of L.A. back in the early 80's. I am
positive there were others, but my memory has faded. Seems to me one was a 58 Pontiac ?
Not sure what Mopar did in this regard, if they did it at all.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I, and others, I'm sure, have seen Mopes with "PILOT" stamped onto their P/T plates (not any FWDLKers, AFAIK),
on 60's cars, for sure....
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Posts: 2524
Location: Houston | carburetors don't dump gas into an engine.....the engine sucks gas out of the carb. there's a difference between dumping and sucking.... |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | That engine sucks?
I always that that it was a vacuum draw, that caused the air/fuel mixture to enter the
intake manifolding/engine cylinders.
"Dumping" was a mental reference to describe the large amount of gasoline that that engine
consumes.
Edited by d500neil 2011-10-10 3:42 PM
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Posts: 1730
Location: Michigan | They must have changed the practice then. I worked on 80, 90, 00 vehicles that did not have that kind of tagging on them. Serial numbers were just very low. I personally had a Shelby that was very low numbers and part of 'the pre-prod Engineering' vehicles. To license it for road worthiness you had to have a vin. The practice must have changed along the way with new regulations. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Mark, the badging of the "Pilot" cars was to confirm their existence as being hand-built prototypes that were created,
typically, to test and fine tune the physical construction protocols on the new model years cars.
They were not intended to be sold to the public, but, some Pilots obviously escaped from the factory's clutches.
The Pilots were different from the in-house/around-plant drivers, that did not have any VIN's on them; saw a few of
these latters on WPC Club national meet trips to Detroit & Belvidere IL assembly plants.
I'm pretty sure that there is a 1967 Coronet 500 vert on the evilpay, right now, that is a true Pilot car, which also is (typically)
equipped with all of the available options on it, for test-fitting purposes.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I don't know how to attach evilpay auctions, so, just search the 'pay for # 170707621419 for a '67 Pilot car for sale.
This car does have a VIN ....20 on it; but, the seller doesn't show the P/T plate, which should have "Pilot Car" stamped
onto it.
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 6203
Location: Big pimpin' | LMAO!!! Bout time this hobby got back to what it was originally....About the CARS and NOT what they are worth come sale time..I hope the rich **** that bought this overpriced, non drivable(Too rare!?!), Thing chokes on it..Flippers never cease to amaze me. They buy high, then try and sell in the sh**iest times. Now i know what a $500K Casket looks like.
Edited by dukeboy 2011-10-10 9:30 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 852
Location: Etters Pa | LOL... I never thought my 53 F100 with a vin of 24 as anything more than an old truck,, Guess I should get with the times and start marketing it as my RETIREMENT??
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Location: Parts Unknown | I don't look at my DeSoto as anything but a car I love and want to drive. No "500K
caskets" or garage floor "paperweights" for me. It's just a car ... a very special car
to me, but just a car to be driven, all the same.
When got into this "hobby", it was such a pleasure to see cars like ours coming down
the road like it was "just another day at the office". All the flipping and B-J hype has
made those days as gone as the dinosaurs. I could not care less if my car was worth
$1500 or 150K. It is the same car to me and it ain't about the money. It is about the
experience.
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Expert 5K+
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Location: Big pimpin' | BTW Doc., you seem to be talking an aweful lot lately about driving these cars....How many times have you driven that DeSoto Lately? I put about 35 miles on my Plymouth this weekend.... |
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Location: Houston | I agree that money has ruined the hobby, but there is one silver lining to it. If the cars were cheap - let's say you could buy a nice 58 Desoto for $3,000 - you'd have every jamoke out there buying them and trashing them out. The monetary value tends to preserve the cars. It also drives the market for reproduction parts. No one would be making repro parts for valueless cars. |
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Location: The Mile High City | It sounds like we are ramping up for an "Occupy Barrett-Jackson" protest? |
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Location: Big pimpin' | GregCon - 2011-10-11 9:27 AM
I agree that money has ruined the hobby, but there is one silver lining to it. If the cars were cheap - let's say you could buy a nice 58 Desoto for $3,000 - you'd have every jamoke out there buying them and trashing them out. The monetary value tends to preserve the cars. It also drives the market for reproduction parts. No one would be making repro parts for valueless cars.
"Valueless" antique cars will never return simply due to their Antique nature and not many left out there.
This "Holy sh*T!!! Let's All watch some rich pr*** spend more money on a d@mn car than you and I will ever see in a lifetime" just seems to fasinate some folks to no end. It isn't enough to simply know you own a piece of history that not too many would even TRY to restore, Oh wait! I have to have the RAREST, WORTH THE MOST, and optioned out the ass...This BS is what's ruined the hobby...
Edited by dukeboy 2011-10-11 12:09 PM
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Location: Upplands Väsby, Sweden | I bought my Windsor 59 conv for $ 9000 it was a ok price for a big project, but the parts use/nos and engine work, fabric / vinyl (interior )...... that was expensive. $ 60,000.
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| Each time this car comes to auction, the story seems to be 'enhanced' somewhat. I had the privilege of first meeting Tom White in 2005 at the concours event put on up at Louden Raceway in New Hampshire. As I recall it; Tom had this car with him having only completed it quite recently. I am fairly certain that the fuel injection system is a correct original and not modified in any way (at least by Tom) as he showed me very detailed schematics that illustrated the need for unique voltage on each injector and various other tidbits.. I was quite impressed with his attention to detail and have always respected him (and his restorations) since. I do recall him saying that the car was an original injector car but the injector unit was found elsewhere. Again, he was quite passionate and honest about the car. He sold the car a couple of years later to some folks in Florida for deservedly big money. I think this is where some of the 'enhancements' started. First it was called an original car from the factory with original injection. Now they are calling it a 'pilot' car (or first one off the line). Tom made neither of those representations to me during our (at least) hour long introduction with the car as a centerpiece of the conversation! I'll be interested to see what happens with the car. The market has corrected and the restoration (as outstanding as it might have been) is now becoming old.
Edited by Desoto world 2011-10-11 9:40 PM
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Location: Houston | If it is the one that I saw in a magazine, it used factory parts that had been 'updated' in many instances given the original components could no longer be found. He had done so covertly....I don't think any of the mods were visible. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | dukeboy - 2011-10-12 3:47 AM
BTW Doc., you seem to be talking an aweful lot lately about driving these cars....How many times have you driven that DeSoto Lately? I put about 35 miles on my Plymouth this weekend....
This "Holy sh*T!!! Let's All watch some rich pr*** spend more money on a d@mn car than you and I will ever see in a lifetime" just seems to fasinate some folks to no end. It isn't enough to simply know you own a piece of history that not too many would even TRY to restore, Oh wait! I have to have the RAREST, WORTH THE MOST, and optioned out the ass...This BS is what's ruined the hobby...
*********************************************************************
While I could not agree more with the "Look at ME!" crowd being a major negative force
on ANY hobby, another real drag are the car guys who want to make personal stabs at others
in the hobby.
Duke, .. I think you know my status and relative ability to do anything more than look at my
cars in photographs. I think you are also hip to the fact that I drove my cars daily for over 25
years and that other life priorities had me put them in mothballs for a while.
But my reference to driving them is obviously NOT in the literal sense. How could I ? I am in
F#@ING Afghanistan. I am speaking from a state of mind about how I view the cars ... kind of
an extension of your comment about the "Look at ME!" crowd being more about status symbols
that a genuine love for the cars and driving them.
But really ? What's up with the nipping at the heels ? I know you know what I am saying about
driving our cars. Let's not be so divisive. I get enough of that sh!t at work. Thanks.
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Location: Big pimpin' | Doctor DeSoto - 2011-10-12 1:53 AM
While I could not agree more with the "Look at ME!" crowd being a major negative force
on ANY hobby, another real drag are the car guys who want to make personal stabs at others
in the hobby.
Duke, .. I think you know my status and relative ability to do anything more than look at my
cars in photographs. I think you are also hip to the fact that I drove my cars daily for over 25
years and that other life priorities had me put them in mothballs for a while.
But my reference to driving them is obviously NOT in the literal sense. How could I ? I am in
F#@ING Afghanistan. I am speaking from a state of mind about how I view the cars ... kind of
an extension of your comment about the "Look at ME!" crowd being more about status symbols
that a genuine love for the cars and driving them.
But really ? What's up with the nipping at the heels ? I know you know what I am saying about
driving our cars. Let's not be so divisive. I get enough of that sh!t at work. Thanks.
Doc. I know you know that some here have or almost have, 10K posts about the same thing...OEM this, or Factory that. You like to run like a broken record as I was about the 440 about a year ago.
I was told the same thing you are being told right now. I asked the same questions you are asking right now. 'Ya know what?
Folks kinda get tired of hearing bout how badass a 440 can be if they want to build a poly 318. They also get tired of hearing bout how we need to drive these cars, you have either been there and done that at least fifty times before anybody else here has (you would have to be at least 75 Y/O to have done as much as you say), And there are people here that kinda get tired of hearing it in ever freakin' post. Once I had great respect for you, as did alot of others.
Now, I throw you into the same pile as the uppity, arrogant, self serving, post just to see his post count go up, sometimes stretching the truth till it tears and when called on it, simply whines about how they are being "Attacked". I make no apologies here Doc., You are a grown man. You post AS much as you do ABOUT as much as you do, someone's gonna call you on it....The only difference is, I all but stopped posting bout the 440 thing.
I guess you haven't had the pleasure of having a real "Personal Stab" as I did when that completely idiotic, Rambling, manifesto was posted about my family and how they should be so lucky as to catch a fatal disease and pass on. You should feel grateful Doc. cause there are some here that feel as strongly about you and your "I've been there and done that, that's nothing" type of replies to just about every post about anything...The ones that don't reply to you, or make "Personal Stabs" at you as you call them, they don't give a sh*t..Just trying to help further the hobby..
Don't feel too bad though Doc. there are a couple others that are just as bad.
Your friend in the hobby,
Duke. |
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Posts: 3891
Location: Northen Virginia | I spoke to Tom in Carlisle years ago and I saw his overestored beauty too and he never said nothing about pilot car. He told me about "it was special factory made for a executive of Chrysler". Now years after is a prototype, next is going to be turbine pilot converted to EFI…. |
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Location: The Mile High City | Is Tom White the owner of White Post Restorations?
Perhaps this will become a test pilot show car personally ordered and driven daily by Tex Colbert?
Edited by Lancer Mike 2011-10-12 1:58 PM
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Posts: 2996
Location: Sept. 1958 | Lancer Mike - 2011-10-12 1:52 PM
Is Tom White the owner of White Post Restorations?
No, he owns Whitehall Restorations. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | dukeboy - 2011-10-13 4:00 AM
Doctor DeSoto - 2011-10-12 1:53 AM
While I could not agree more with the "Look at ME!" crowd being a major negative force
on ANY hobby, another real drag are the car guys who want to make personal stabs at others
in the hobby.
Duke, .. I think you know my status and relative ability to do anything more than look at my
cars in photographs. I think you are also hip to the fact that I drove my cars daily for over 25
years and that other life priorities had me put them in mothballs for a while.
But my reference to driving them is obviously NOT in the literal sense. How could I ? I am in
F#@ING Afghanistan. I am speaking from a state of mind about how I view the cars ... kind of
an extension of your comment about the "Look at ME!" crowd being more about status symbols
that a genuine love for the cars and driving them.
But really ? What's up with the nipping at the heels ? I know you know what I am saying about
driving our cars. Let's not be so divisive. I get enough of that sh!t at work. Thanks.
Doc. I know you know that some here have or almost have, 10K posts about the same thing...OEM this, or Factory that. You like to run like a broken record as I was about the 440 about a year ago.
I was told the same thing you are being told right now. I asked the same questions you are asking right now. 'Ya know what?
Folks kinda get tired of hearing bout how badass a 440 can be if they want to build a poly 318. They also get tired of hearing bout how we need to drive these cars, you have either been there and done that at least fifty times before anybody else here has (you would have to be at least 75 Y/O to have done as much as you say ), And there are people here that kinda get tired of hearing it in ever freakin' post. Once I had great respect for you, as did alot of others.
Now, I throw you into the same pile as the uppity, arrogant, self serving, post just to see his post count go up, sometimes stretching the truth till it tears and when called on it, simply whines about how they are being "Attacked". I make no apologies here Doc., You are a grown man. You post AS much as you do ABOUT as much as you do, someone's gonna call you on it....The only difference is, I all but stopped posting bout the 440 thing.
I guess you haven't had the pleasure of having a real "Personal Stab" as I did when that completely idiotic, Rambling, manifesto was posted about my family and how they should be so lucky as to catch a fatal disease and pass on. You should feel grateful Doc. cause there are some here that feel as strongly about you and your "I've been there and done that, that's nothing" type of replies to just about every post about anything...The ones that don't reply to you, or make "Personal Stabs" at you as you call them, they don't give a sh*t..Just trying to help further the hobby..
Don't feel too bad though Doc. there are a couple others that are just as bad.
Your friend in the hobby,
Duke.
*********************************************************************
So, let me get this straight:
a. You have been badly attacked on a personal level
b. You feel this makes it OK to do the same toward others
c. You are somehow an appointed "police" to let people know when you feel they have posted too much
*********************************************************************
Dukie, I have done a lot of sh!t in my life. None of which anyone who does not know me is qualified to
call into question. You want to get to know me and see stuff for yourself, then by all means. Until such time
let's keep the personal smack out. I know you didn't like getting smacked on (if it was publicly, I missed it)
and having your character called into question. It is just straight up inappropriate. Let's take the high road.
And just to put the first foot forward, if I at any time offended or stepped over the line toward you in a personal
way, hit me with a PM and we'll discuss it. I will apologize publicly for any such trespasses.
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Location: Blythewood, SC | Doc, pay no mind to douchebag. |
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Location: Northen Virginia | Doc nevermind, just keep pulling the .50 Cal trigger that is more fun than any car. Any minigun at hand? |
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Posts: 1060
Location: Building incorrect cars since 2000!! | hemidenis - 2011-10-13 10:16 AM
Doc nevermind, just keep pulling the .50 Cal trigger that is more fun than any car. Any minigun at hand?
I remember back in the day when you could get a good 50 cal at the local store I had a neighbor friend that had one he could make shots at 3 miles away picking lights out of the 57 chevys that cruised the streets in those days. But what has sicken me is the lazy no life deserving a**holes who have taken over those wonderful stores - darn parasites- how i long for the smell of slushies and hotdogs being grill by my neighbors turbonic chrysler and late night cruises on my henderson motorcycle. wow those where the days. Now it is pukes and douches all day long makes me long for my one off 383 60 somethin car. well its back to sandfleas and camel toe!!
Edited by 60 Plymouth 2011-10-14 8:25 PM
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 6203
Location: Big pimpin' | 60 Plymouth - 2011-10-14 5:08 PM
hemidenis - 2011-10-13 10:16 AM
Doc nevermind, just keep pulling the .50 Cal trigger that is more fun than any car. Any minigun at hand?
I remember back in the day when you could get a good 50 cal at the local store I had a neighbor friend that had one he could make shots at 3 miles away picking lights out of the 57 chevys that cruised the streets in those days. But what has sicken me is the lazy no life deserving a**holes who have taken over those wonderful stores - darn parasites- how i long for the smell of slushies and hotdogs being grill by my neighbors turbonic chrylser and late night cruises on my henderson motorcycle. wow those where the days. Now it is pukes and douches all day long makes me long for my one off 383 60 somethin car. well its back to sandfleas and camel toe!!
Glad to see I'm not the only one...Bout spit my coffee out on that one Aaron. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1060
Location: Building incorrect cars since 2000!! | |
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