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Location: calif | i've seen several 1961 chrysler newports with the 3speed floor shifts
could you get a dodge phoenix in 61 with a 3speed floor shift stick? |
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Location: Victoria, BC, on Vancouver Island, Canada | All the Dodges came with a three on the tree if it was manual shift. The reason Chrysler used the floor shift, was because the astra-dome panel and column assembly provided no room to mount a column shift lever. They didn't even use a turn signal lever on the column of these, it was over on the dash below the trans buttons. |
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| The heavy-duty 3-on-the-tree in '61 was a lousy trans as it kept bending, or even shearing, synchro pins during high speed drag strip runs and would have to be repaired at least once even during a single drag session. At the 1961 NHRA Nationals, the Ramchargers '61 Dart (413 CID ram-inducted Dart) lost on the S/S trophy run because of such a failure. However, they did repair it in time for a "grudge" match with the winning car (an early 409 CID chevy) which Jim Thornton won. The photo of that Dart beating the Chev made all the car magazines in short order.
Incidentally, a buddy of mine had a '60 Belvedere with the 325 HP 383 CID mill (single 4V carb) and the stick and he also had problems with it, eventually putting a Hurst floor-shift conversion unit on it.
Joe Godec |
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Location: Parts Unknown | My crossram / stick DeSoto used the floor-mounted shifter. I never hammered it so hard as to break the tranny, but I did break a number of clutches before getting set up with a 12 incher. Never had a mechanical problem with it after that. I did have continuous problems with metal fatigue around the shifter hump, as this unit truly is "floor mounted", with all pivot action being borme against the sheetmetal of the floor. In 63, Hurst made a transmission-mounted unit to replace this type. I have one that I took out of a 58 Plaza. I had intended to retro-update the DeSoto with it, but plans changed and I sold all my 60's to focus on the 58's.
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Location: Big pimpin' | Sonoramic60 - 2009-05-13 7:25 AM
The heavy-duty 3-on-the-tree in '61 was a lousy trans as it kept bending, or even shearing, synchro pins during high speed drag strip runs and would have to be repaired at least once even during a single drag session.
Joe Godec
Joe, You speak the truth here, as Schaefer with the 350 GC Plymouth Sedan has had this problem more than once in his own car....He once even had the famous "Wendel Scott" weld his shifter mechanism on the steeering column back together for him at his shop.... |
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Location: calif | Thanks for all the info
I now realize that my 61 D500 orig had a column shift,which i'd like to put back to the orig configuration
which years,models' columns,trannys would interchange?
i assume 60-61 dodge,plymouth?
6 and 8 cylider? |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Chuck, since your ride is a civilian D-5, it almost certainly had the column shift.
However, a floor shift was technically available on 61 Dodges, according to the Hot Rod and Motor Life magazine
articles on the '413' D500's.
And, I want to say (from memory) that the floor shifts were from Hurst.
According to Darrell Davis' 61 D500 research, only TWO 413 Seneca-post column-stick D500's were ever built, and both
were basically in-house produced, for advertising purposes: the red car (as seen in the two articles) and a black one (for
East coast publicity purposes).
The black car's whereabouts is unknown, but the red car may still exist.
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| Neil --
There also was the Ramchargers' Pioneer 2-dr h/t (it might have been a Phoenix, but the photos I've seen of it are at distance and I can't spot any emblems or see the rear window). The Ramchargers modified it quite extensively, i.e., NHRA legal over bore, 12-to-1 pistons, special cam, tuned headers, and, of course, the "short" long rams.
Cotton Owens, Richard Petty's father-in-law, also got a couple of stick 413 Darts for the NASCAR circuits.
I don't know what happened to any of these cars but most likely they were junked as they were ridden hard and put away wet.
Incidentally, photos of the restoration of Petty's '60 NASCAR Fury show show the "3" still remaining on the tree.
Joe Godec |
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Location: Parts Unknown | As I understand it, the floor pan mounted ORIGINAL type shifter was a Chrysler made device. Old heads told me the Hurst-made / tranny mounted shifter did not come along until 1963 as a replacement unit for the originals, as these became really sloppy and problematic in operation due to sheetmetal fatigue and cracking that allowed the whole shifter to wobble every which way without moving the shift rods. I have examples of both still and based on my stick DeSoto experience, the floors did crack and the Hurst unit was a far better idea ! 
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| Doc --
An "adversary" of mine who had a '60 Plymouth 383 with the 1X4V carb and a 3-on-the-tree went to the Hurst unit -- and while it was quite a bit AFTER(!) the '60 model year, though I can't remember exactly when, I believe it may have been late in '61 or early '62, but at my age, who knows?
Joe Godec
Edited by Sonoramic60 2009-05-16 2:51 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I'd better go dig out those issues of HR and ML....... |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Joe ~
Don't shoot .... I'm just the messenger !
My old DeSoto got quite a bit of attention on account of the floor shift stick ..... all the usual know-it-alls saying they only came with push buttons, etc. But it did draw out an occasional oldtimer who was there and of age to have been paying attention to such matters. I was told the floorpan mounted shifter began to show problems after a year or so of use and hence the Hurst unit was developed. "1963" was tossed out there as what someone remembered, but I didn't ask for documentation ! 
I can collaborate that the floor did crack after extended use like the oldtimers said it would - this was after I replaced a rotted floor with good metal - and I began looking for a Hurst unit to replace it with. I found the Hurst unit in a 58 Plaza, of all things ! Apparently the one-time owner put it in for whatever reasons and left the the tree shifter hanging !
I guess we could call that a double-shifter ???
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| Doc --
I wasn't shooting; heck, I'm not even loaded!
Joe |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Here are some pics from the Hot Rod mag Neil was talking about. Also, the 1961 Ram Chargers car was a Pioneer hard top. I have a video somewhere with it. (and more pics besides this one) I want to say the video is the Lyon's Drag Strip early years or something . . .
Edited by B/G 61 2009-05-26 12:46 PM
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Location: Parts Unknown | What you are showing there is decidely NOT the shifter I have and have been told is a Hurst. Hmmmm ......
Mine has a flat bar "U' configuration through which the shifter shaft is bolted. This pic shows a single casting. Also, my mounting parts are made of 1/2"+ bent steel strap with holes (much like plumber's strap). A well manufactured unit, but very different from this one !
This is a great thread ! 
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Thanks, Yikey.
What do you suppose a complete Hurst shifter set up, like the one seen, here, would go for, on the 'Pay?
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Location: Parts Unknown | Well, that just might be the item that gets listed under "rat rod" and sneeks by everyone for $20.00 (but ends up on a ford pick-up with the shift levers tossed in the scrap pile) OR, that also might be the item that has a reserve of $10,000 (or some number that only a government bail out could hit) OR, I waaaait till the last second and SNIPE it for $600 . . . |
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Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | B/G 61 - 2009-05-26 9:50 AM
Here are some pics from the Hot Rod mag Neil was talking about. Also, the 1961 Ram Chargers car was a Pioneer hard top. I have a video somewhere with it. (and more pics besides this one) I want to say the video is the Lyon's Drag Strip early years or something . . . I am pretty sure the shifter shown here is a Spark-O-Matic. I don't know how they came up with that name, but was fairly common back in the day....................MO |
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Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | I remember Spark-O-Matic also sold CB radios.
K. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | OK, I am getting confused (happens easily with this pea brain!).
Does the above article showing the shifter "kit" actually say it is a Hurst shifter ? If so, is that accurate ?
What is a Spark-o-matic ? Is that a company ? Is it a Hurst model ? I have never heard that name before as it relates to shifters.
If I can lay hands on my "Hurst" shifter, I will take some pix and post them. Since I have torn down all but the last garage in order to build my new shop, my storage unit is overflowing and disorganized and I may not be able to find it (?). I guess I need to really look it over hard for a Hurst marking. I do not think I ever saw one on it, and was referring to it as a Hurst because old dog Mopar guys simply told me that is what it is.
I can tell you mine looks nothing like that unit pictured above and if one of these is a Hurst, I'd like to know what the other one is.
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Location: Parts Unknown | It absolutely says Hurst floor shift conversion kit in the article - now that may pertain to the brackets and linkage only and not the shifter itself. The shifter itself may be a Spark-o-matic or some kind of J.C. Whitney something - I will look at it again when I get home and post what it says . . . |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
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Location: bishop, ca | ..without looking at the article, right now, my memory-cells tell me that the article specifically states that the shifter
assembly is a Hurst-brand item.
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Location: Parts Unknown | The article continues as follows . . . "We also installed a Hurst three-speed floor-shift conversion kit, which is a recommended option by Dodge, to promote smoother and faster shifting." It also says when describing the pic above . . . "Another "suggested" option for Dodge is the Hurst floor shift coversion kit to fit the heavy-duty three speed transmission. All brackets and parts are included in kit to make neat installation and eliminate column linkage." Upon a closer look, the word Hurst can be seen going down the shaft of the lever in the familiar "Hurst" way. You can't make it out in the pic here, but in person, I can see it. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Yikey, et al, youse guys might want to check out the "Birmingham AL" car auction thread, over on the Craigslist message
board.
On page 9(?) of the auction listings is a certain 1961 Dodge that ya'll might wanna go look at....
I've asked the auction house for the car's VIN, to see if it's an OEM D500, or not.
Edited by d500neil 2009-05-27 10:01 PM
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Location: Parts Unknown | I saw that car at Carlisle last year. (maybe two yrs now?) ANYWAY, as I recall, the guy wanted $12,500 for it. He had it on Ebay once too. Wanted a Ford truck for trade or cash. The body was rough in a few spots and I question the hydrolic 4 speed. PLEASE keep me (us) posted as to the "real-ness" of this car. He was calling it a 413 Max wedge . . .  |
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Location: Parts Unknown | What is the date on that magazine article about the Hurst shifter kit ?
If it is 1961, then that is the earliest reference I have seen of that round shift shaft with the flattened sides that reads "HURST" in incused letters. By 1968, Mother Mopar made that unit standard fare in her muscle cars. I fit one of these into my Coronet.
********************************
Getting back to the shifters I have .... I went up to the shop and dug through the DeSoto and found my two stock shifters from 60 and 61. I could not locate the unit I have always known to be a "Hurst". Bummer, because this is a favorite topic for me and I am stacking up the contents of my garage in that place to empty it and demolish it to make room for the new shop. It could be a while before I get all this stuff out and organized in the new shop. 
I took a photo of the two shifters I did find and will post her shortly. I have some other stuff to do, but will get to it as soon as I can.
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Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | MOPAR-TO-YA - 2009-05-26 11:45 PM
B/G 61 - 2009-05-26 9:50 AM
Here are some pics from the Hot Rod mag Neil was talking about. Also, the 1961 Ram Chargers car was a Pioneer hard top. I have a video somewhere with it. (and more pics besides this one) I want to say the video is the Lyon's Drag Strip early years or something . . . I am pretty sure the shifter shown here is a Spark-O-Matic. I don't know how they came up with that name, but was fairly common back in the day....................MO |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Oct 1961 Hot Rod Magazine -
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Location: Parts Unknown | October, 1961. Hmmm ....
So really, we are talking about reporting on last year's (1961) cars and/or the just coming out 62 models.
Most of my old moterhead buddies from those days are dead and gone. I'll have to ask around about this Hurst thing. Interesting discovery for me !
Now, I am really curious to know what that shifter is that I was told was a "Hurst". Thinking back on it, I recall being told it was a "Super Stock" part, MADE by Hurst. I guess before we had Mopar Performance, they called their go-fast parts division "Super Stock" ?
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Just went back to the auction site (it's shown on page 10 of the listings), and the listing says that it's a 383
engine.
There WAS a 1961 383 Rammie option, called, simply, the "D500" (as opposed to the "Super D500"(413 single-4)
and the "Super Ram Induction D500"(Rammie 413).
I'd be a lot more excited about the car's prospects if it, at least, sported a D500 emblem on its ass end.
I'll bet that it's really got a 3-speed trannie, but, if the car is a clone, a 4-speed would be a driving-plus, for it.
Edited by d500neil 2009-05-28 4:55 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Yikey, do you have (access to) the similar Motor Life issue, that discusses the 413 Rammie Seneca?
Both articles were prepared around June/July 1961, for publication in late-ish Sept.
Darrell Davis' research book has reported that there were two 'stick' 413 Senecas built; the red one for the West coast, and a black one for the East coast publicity usage .
This car might be a 383 Rammie D500 (it certainly is stripped-enuf!) but, its VIN will tell-all.
Still haven't heard anything back, from the auction house, regarding its VIN.
Edited by d500neil 2009-05-28 4:57 PM
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Location: Parts Unknown | Well I can tell you what the guy at Carlisle told me. He said it was a 413 max wedge (cardboard sign). I never looked at the engine bay (there was a crowd around it so I went directly to the guy behind the wheel as he fired it up for everyone) He got out of the car as he was telling me he didn't know too much about the car. He said he took it to a few car shows and the crowd around it is much like the crowd that was around it at that time. He said its a hydraulic clutch 4 speed enforcer package car. That was what someone had told him. I was going toward the back to check for the infamous D 500 emblem when he told me how he was a body and fender guy and how solid the car was. I am NOT AT ALL CLOSE to a body and fender guy but could CLEARLY see the "swipes" of mud/putty/bondo on the lower rear driver side quarter/rocker panel that I continued on to the back of the car, didn't see the emblem, said good luck and went on my way. I wish I would have went back to look under the hood but I never made it back. (413/elbows/exhaust manifolds/inner fender cut-outs I do not know) Yes I do have the Sept Motor Life . . .
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Well, whatever this car might be, according to its clutch pedal condition, it HAS been 'run' often, and hard.
Funny; no seat belts in it, apparently.
Even if it's a clone, a retro-macho seat belt would be a nice feature to have on it.
Edited by d500neil 2009-05-28 5:12 PM
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Location: Parts Unknown | Sorry guys - I realize this is getting off topic but . . . The D500 in the pic above is not heater delete like the auction car and has anyone ever come across a steering wheel like this ? (same car)(sorry for the bad cell phone pic)
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | This ain't off-topic.
That steering wheel is probably generic-cop/Corp issue.
Remember, that the heater, like the radio, was/were optional items.
That's what makes the auction car interesting; only in the deep south/west would someone be interested in getting a car without
even a heater in it, and/or unless the car were going to be raced regularly.
Edited by d500neil 2009-05-28 6:19 PM
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Location: Parts Unknown | Neil, I was not aware of Dodge in 61 making ANY ram car other than the 383 (no 361 or 413) I'm talking production off the line not a dealer install. I'm looking in my books now so if I am wrong I will try to beat you in correcting me !!!  |
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Location: Parts Unknown | All info I have (memory and "as of now" gleaned papers) is the Power Package 318 (single 4 bbl) 361 Dart D500 (single 4 bbl) 383 Polara D500 (single 4 bbl) 383 D500 (ram car) . . .
Edited by B/G 61 2009-05-28 8:09 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Yikey, the HR & ML issues/articles discuss the 'availability' of the 413 engines, IIRC.
As I mentioned, the factory apparently only made TWO of them, however.
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Location: Parts Unknown | Here is a photo of the shifters as promised. The white ball unit is from my 60 DeSoto. The grey unit came out of a 61 Windsor.
Because the white ball unit is removed from the rest of the mechanism, it is slightly twisted by the ball raising one end to give the appearance they have a slightly different curve, but I believe this part is identical to both, with the exception of the knob.
The complete unit is just how it came out of the car, and shows the piece of plywood used in the mounting. This is stock, as Ihave seen it in every one of these cars I have had the chance to look at.
You will note that the curve of the shifter lever is not near so hooked as the one shown for the Valiant.
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Location: Parts Unknown | Not to add more confusion, but is the white ball a DeSoto only thing or was it used throughout the line-ups ??? (1960) |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Neil, I have Darrell Davis' 1961 D500 guide and it says . . . "The 383 CID D500 engine was the only ram induction engine offered for 1961." |
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Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | Far as I know-- the first Max Wedge was in 1962 as a 413-easily identified by the staggered two four barrels on a short cross ram intake ( no ram tubes.) Also had cast exhaust manifolds that arched up beside the valve covers. they ere called Stage I. Next Max wedge was called a Stage II It looked the same but was 426 wedge head,. They were replaced by the 426 Street Hemi. Super Stock refers to the NHRA drag racing class that these cars competed in, and Nopar made these cars to compete in that class. No Mopar Performance division like now-- just a knowledgeable parts man.........................MO |
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Location: Parts Unknown | That is pretty much why I did not climb all over that car when I saw it at Carlslile. Calling it a max wedge, telling me it was soilid , I figured the guy was crazy and truly did not know what he was talking about. Oh well, that is only about the BILLIONTH time in my life I would like to "go back and start over" Someone once called a long ram car in front of me , now make sure you are sitting down , " An old Hemi Cuda motor with the offset carb's"
Edited by B/G 61 2009-05-29 9:07 AM
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Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia | Hey... that's the first issue of HRM I ever bought!
Not only that, it's the first ever US or British magazine I ever bought...
And I don't think there were any '61s with 4-speeds, were there? The Pont-a-Mousson (yeah, I know, it's probably not how it's written or spelled) was a 1960 option and not many were built, were they? |
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Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | I cannot help laughing about this topic ... it's sooo totally uncool to have a mismatched stickshift on a overkool pushbutton FL car. I can make one exception only - the 300 F with 4 speed, because the stickshift was nicely integrated in the consol. The FL cars where not supposed to be muscle institutes - you where supposed to play them like a tenor saxophone - with buttons and feeling. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Ray,
You got the spells right.
Yes it was a 60-only thing and,
No, not many were built.
The story I got with my old DeSoto was that Mopar replaced the P-a-M option with the venerable old 3-speed and this razzoo new floor shifter ..... neither of which were really that razzoo.
Still, to have a floor shift Mopar in a field of pushbuttons is pretty special ! |
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Location: Parts Unknown | wizard - 2009-05-29 11:18 AM
I cannot help laughing about this topic ... it's sooo totally uncool to have a mismatched stickshift on a overkool pushbutton FL car. I can make one exception only - the 300 F with 4 speed, because the stickshift was nicely integrated in the consol. The FL cars where not supposed to be muscle institutes - you where supposed to play them like a tenor saxophone - with buttons and feeling.
I think Jim Thornton, (and the rest of the Ram Chargers) Ray Brock, Norman Thatcher, The Granatelli's, Lee Petty, etc. might disagree. Besides, my 1960 D100 has a 4-speed !!! AND YOU HAVE NEVER HEARD ME PLAY THE SAX ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | So, you're a member of KISS????
Edited by d500neil 2009-05-29 6:45 PM
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Location: Parts Unknown | wizard - 2009-05-30 8:18 AM
I cannot help laughing about this topic ... it's sooo totally uncool to have a mismatched stickshift on a overkool pushbutton FL car. I can make one exception only - the 300 F with 4 speed, because the stickshift was nicely integrated in the consol. The FL cars where not supposed to be muscle institutes - you where supposed to play them like a tenor saxophone - with buttons and feeling.
***********************************
Well, it WAS the era of automatics for sure, and if you are going to have an automatic, what cooler way to shift it than pushbuttons ?
However, if you are of the mindset that likes more mechanical driving and that direct (not slushy) feel between your foot and the road, then an automatic just isn't going to cut it. I hate automatics. I think the pushbuttons are really cool and all, .... I just don't like automatics !
Further, .... I have always been drawn to the really way-out-there kinds of cars ... the more removed from a Chevy or Ford, the better. That is why I went DeSoto and not Chrysler. I like both, but one has the dinosaur appeal "edge" that draws funny looks. A DeSoto with a stick ? Now THAT is weird !
Just say "no" to ordinary.
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Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia | B/G 61... I believe I read somewhere yesterday you couldn't post a pic because it was too big?
I notice that many of the pics you post, and quite small ones at that, are .BMP files... bitmaps... if you make a practice of saving your files as .JPG files they will be smaller files and you'll be able to post larger images.
Now... Doc, I'm glad to see your attitude to having control over the gears in your car. Isn't it about time Kenny chimed in here and reminded us of his signature?
And is your 4-speed a Pont-a-Mousson, or a more modern unit like an A833? |
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Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | Ray Bell - 2009-05-30 6:41 AM
Now... Doc, I'm glad to see your attitude to having control over the gears in your car. Isn't it about time Kenny chimed in here and reminded us of his signature?
I haven't used that signature file for a long time, Ray. And I had to get rid of my last signature file because most modern Americans seem to see everything in "absolutes". Some of the jerks here were just lying in the weeds, waiting to pounce on me when they thought I was being a hypocrite.
Anyway, many of the Forward Look Era dashes were "neutral" (no pun intended) and lent themselves to either stick or automatic.
Now look at GM.......'58-'64 full size Chevrolets were also such cars, arguably leaning towards a column shift manual tranny. Automatic cars had the selector perched upon the column in a manner which made them appear as an after thought. The '65 and '66 full size Chevrolets, however, had inherently "automatic transmission dashes", as the many three-on-the-tree cars built those two years had a block off plate where the automatic selector would have been located.
The Astrodome dash Mopars could not accommodate a column shift.
Remember, since not all cars were built for hot rodders, nor were they designed for future generations to hot rod, the column shift was sensible for providing a space for a third front seat passenger.
Sure, column shifters didn't lend themselves to speed shifting nor to power shifting, but again, not every driver who purchased a new car was a street racer.
To me, saying all Forward Look cars were essentially "automatic transmission cars" would be like saying all were intended to be V-8, (and no less than a Hemi) or full frame cars, and those that did not have a push button automatic, bolted to a Hemi V-8, in a "real" car with a "real" frame isn''t what the designers intended.
K. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Yikey; you are correct, I had thought that these two stick-Rammies were 413's, but they were 383 cars (huh).
There were 20 Seneca Rammies built; these two (West coast/East coast publicity-cars) may have been the only manual trannie Senecas, but, of the 383 single-4 models, there were only 3 Phoenix's built, in the Dart-series.
Edited by d500neil 2009-05-30 5:22 PM
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Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia | I'm just glad that Lee Petty knew better, Kenny...
I agree that the pushbutton auto was one of the trademarks of the Forward Look cars, I see no issues with having those buttons blanked off. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Ray Bell - 2009-05-31 6:41 AM
Now... Doc, I'm glad to see your attitude to having control over the gears in your car. Isn't it about time Kenny chimed in here and reminded us of his signature?
And is your 4-speed a Pont-a-Mousson, or a more modern unit like an A833?
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I think we might be crossing some wires here. I have an A-833 4-speed in my Coronet convertible, but that is a 66. My 60 DeSoto ran what I assume was a standard 3-speed with some beefy guts. It was fitted with the floor shifter I posted pix of yesterday or the day before. I plan to use the shifter to retrofit a Richmond Gears 5-speed into the 58 as a 4-speed with overdrive.
I just love those ultra rare floor shift cars with bench seats and no console, ..... just a stick poking up from the carpet ! Not stock, but I'll do my best to make it look as period correct as possible. My "restoration" goal is a 3 year old car owned by a performance guy. ..... period mods with a nice, but less-than-trailer-queen appearance.
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Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia | Doc, I think it would be more rewarding, more fun, to use a 3-speed with the B-W overdrive...
Set it up so you can use it automatically, as the factory installed it, or so you can override that and use it manually. Wonderful! 6-speed clutchless (once you take off from a standstill) and great gearing. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Ray, ....
Have you ever had the pleasure of driving a standard 3-speed in city traffic ? That non-synchro 1st gear will change your mind regarding "fun" muy pronto !
Sure would look fun sitting in a parking lot, though.
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Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia | That was life as I grew up...
In our corner of the world, my teenage years saw the Holden filling about 65% of the market. No automatics in Holdens until 1961... the only widespread use of Autos in Australia were in the Customlines and Bel-Airs, while there was a number of Forward Look cars out there with them including the Chrysler Royal.
Most of the population who wanted autos had to wait for the Falcon to come out in late 1960 to find an 'average' family car without a clutch pedal. I never wanted one, of course.
We had traffic. I lived in Sydney, the most populous city in Australia, with about 2 million people at that time. Apart from the Holden, we had zillions of BMC cars. Morrises, Austins by the bucketload... some Vanguards, some British Fords like the Zephyr, Consul and Anglia. Of all of these, only the last-mentioned had synchro on first gear. Even the VW, selling in fair numbers, didn't have synchro on first until 1960 (the Anglia had it in '59).
So I drove cars with no Synchro on first gear in my formative years, matching the revs on downchanges, practising the art of double declutching. I even practised driving clutchless some of the time, just for kicks.
All the same, I'd rather have synchro. But I can live without it. |
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Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia | By the way, the B-W overdrive overcomes that anyway, Doc...
When the overdrive is in operation, you have direct drive through a ball ramp, you don't need synchro... IIRC. Better... with overdrive in operation and engaged (now I've got to remember all this!) you can pull up at uphill traffic lights and sit there on the ball ramp... no brakes at all. |
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Location: STL, MO | What's a rammie? |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Steve, a Rammie kinda-technically refers to a car with the cross-rams intake manifold system; it can be used as
an adjective, like "Rammie-induction", but that is sort of awkward, instead of simply saying "Ram-induction (system)".
The 'ram' manifolds are designed so as to force in a concentrated amount of air/fuel mixture to the cylinder heads, in
a free (no engine drag or resistance involved) super-charging effect.
The ram manifolds are designed, or 'timed' so as to deliver more concentrated mixture, at a certain rpm/vacuum range.
The 1960 ram system had long(er) internal passages, which served to help low end/speed response.
In 61 (IIRC), a very-similar looking ram manifold (called the "short-Ram") was produced, which delivered its maximum-
concentrated air/fuel mixture at high(er) operating speed, for better top-end performance.
Somebody wanna post some pics of both systems, now, for posterity????
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Location: Parts Unknown | Long Rams and Short Rams - 
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Location: STL, MO | I thought you were talking cross-rams but I wanted to be sure, now I can see how to tell them apart with the full versus partial split in the casting along the runners, makes for a quick ID, Steve |
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Location: Parts Unknown | So, is that as far as our collective knowledge about these stick cars goes ?
No ideas on that white ball ?
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Location: Parts Unknown | I DO NOT KNOW, however, I will now take the position that the white ball is a 1960 DeSoto item, possible 1960 Chrysler item, not a 1960 Valiant item. Now someone tell me what stand to take for the Dodge Lancer . . .
Edited by B/G 61 2009-06-01 10:45 PM
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Location: Vancouver, BC | B/G 61 - 2009-06-01 7:43 PM
I DO NOT KNOW, however, I will now take the position that the white ball is a 1960 DeSoto item, possible 1960 Chrysler item, not a 1960 Valiant item. Now someone tell me what stand to take for the Dodge Lancer . . .
The 1961 Dodge Lancer was the same as the 1961 Plymouth Valiant - part number 2208 140. The 1960 Valiant was 2073 567. For 1962 the Valiant and Lancer dropped the deep dish steering wheel of 1960-61 replacing it with a shallow steering wheel. That permitted the stick shift to be located on the steering column. The 1960-62 Chrysler had the instrument panel problems but no other Mopar make.
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Location: Parts Unknown | O.K. people, I'm locked in now. I will ALWAYS state that I am not 100% sure, but, I feel comfotable enough "sticking my neck out" whenever being asked in the future about 1960/1961 floor shift Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth/DeSoto's . . . . . . . (man, usually end up "headless" when I say that but . . .) |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Eh, yer doing FINE, Yikey!
The one true axiom on all things FWDLK is : "never-say-never" (or, I suppose: "always"....lololol)
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Location: Parts Unknown | So, Bill ....
Any hard wisdom on the apps of that white ball shifter I posted the pic of above ?
Came out of my old 60 Fireflite 2HT.
Was this a 60-only, post Pont-a-Mousson shifter for the 3-speed as I have been told ?
I sure would like to confirm or debunk this after all these years of speculation and mystery. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Well, from the photographic evidence, as shown on the other 1961 CHRY shifter thread, the Pont a Moussies have
black colored vase-like-shaped shifter handles, attached to straight-shifter rods (maybe with a bend, at their bases)
and the 3-speed 61's(IIRC) have the white tulip-head-shaped shifter balls.
Your billiard-ball-round shifter ball is not seen in any of the shifter photos, on either of these two threads, right????
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Location: Parts Unknown | That is correct.
However, what I have been told and wish to confirm / debunk, is that this is a correct 1960 - post Pont-a-Mousson - floor shift mechanism.
We focus solely on the Pont-a-Mousson when speaking of 1960, and then jump straight to the 61 cars with the 3-speed and the tulip knob shifter. It has been asserted to me by a number of oldtimers back in the 80's that Mopar offered the 3-speed with floor shift in 1960. Can we confirm this ? If so, is this the correct shifter for 60-only (or did the little white ball get used in other apps?) .... if so, what ?
I know these sticks are rare as hen's teeth, so many do not even know they were even built, but this has been a nagging question for me for 25 years ! I want an answer !!!!
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Location: Parts Unknown | Too bad the true answer hasn't come out yet . . . I did find a pic of a Lancer. I am posting it because I want this thread to go on until we get to the bottom of this
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Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | The answer is--- The white knobs were stolen off a Corvair...........................MO |
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Location: Parts Unknown | MOPAR-TO-YA - 2009-06-05 10:36 PM
The answer is--- The white knobs were stolen off a Corvair...........................MO
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Them's fightin' words !
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | ..What? "stolen" , or "Curvaire"... ? |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Don't play stupid with me, Amigo ! |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | ..Who's playing....? |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Hahahahahaha !
That could go two different ways, ..... either one funny !
I had a girlfriend years ago whose dad was a Corvair nut. He had several with turbochargers on them. They went pretty good for a little toad, but still were ugly as .....
I am not real happy with the cars that came out as the fin era unraveled. The Corvair probably ranks as about the least attractive of the lot. Cool in their own right, but repulsive if a nice finned car is put into the equation.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Y'know what's interesting to consider about the 1960 American compacts?
they're all completely different from each other.
You had a REAL choice of styling and performance and engineering.
Lark , Rambler, Valiant, Falcon, Cur-fair; all significantly different.
Nowadays........?
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Location: Parts Unknown | I'd still like to inspire some insightful response from Bill on this subject of the little white ball.
Something else I find interesting is the swing back towards floor shifters after a long industry hiatus. I have never really heard an insider reason for this happening when it did. Anyone have anecdotal input ?
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | My anecdotal input is that if that shifter, when located in Lancaster County, PA, should have to be finished
in a different color (blue).
Sorry, that's my most insightful input on why the shifter ball is white.
I'm sure that Bill will agree with me.
Edited by d500neil 2009-06-10 2:54 PM
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Location: Parts Unknown | Spanks, Neil. You are "lots" of help !
I'm gonna have to go pull the frog off the tender of 191 and get this train back on the track again. Or should I let you get all your sexy innuendo over with and THEN rerail this thread ?
How about that David Carradine, anyway ? |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I don't think that anyone, here, knows the answer as to why your ball is white. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Yeah, .... that is the problem.
I am old school, in that long before there was a a CHS, I was asking old heads why this and what that to try and get a handle on the mysterious make Mopar. Anything you wanted to know about GM was as easy as a phone call away .... VIN tracing, data tag decodes. It was simple and easy. But not Mopar. No one had them, no one liked them, no one knew a dam-ned thing about them. When you DID find someone, they might know a little about THEIR car, but little else. And half the time what they "knew" was boloney. It was a tough go.
I still do not consider the BS I was told to be rock-solid fact. I saw a lot out on the field, I talked to a lot of people. Some stories could be triangulated, others debunked. This one lingers as a major "WTF?" and being a stick loving kinda guy, it smoulders in the old craw as the one question I want answered !!!!
I hardly consider m'seff an expert on anything beyond navel lint and am just waiting for someone "all knowing" to uncrack their big book of Mopar facts and put this one to rest.
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Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia | The return to floor changes came, I would think, because of the 'sporty' nature of the intrusive imports of the late fifties and early sixties...
IIRC, VW and Renault were making great ground in the US at the time and both makes had floor changes. Sports cars never went away from floor changes, Corvettes had them didn't they?
And then there was the emergence of 4-speed transmissions. The Pont-a-Mousson in Chryslers in 1960, Borg-Warner's T10, the optioning of a 4-speed would have meant a more complicated and troublesome column change so let's put them on the floor.
Along with that came the move to bucket seats as a 'luxury' and 'sporting' option.
Wouldn't that be close to the money, Doc? |
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Location: Parts Unknown | That's how I read it.
But it would be fun to read the meeting notes over at engineering in 1958 suggesting they give this some money to develop. Maybe the Ramchargers asking for a better shifter ?
I love to think of my 5400 lb. sports car as just that .... a sports car ! 
Half disassembled and in bare metal, it's still got more "sport" than most anything built today.
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Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia | Far more sporting than a silicon chip...
Do you have to synchronise carbies? |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Well, if we think about this protocol (floor shifts)....Chrysler was pretty-well locked into family bench seating throughout
the 50's; not much room to install a 'sporty' floor shift, in a family sedan.
Chrysler/Dodge didn't really support factory stock car racing, but allowed and somewhat assisted Kiekaefer in his efforts.
When K. got miffed @ B. France, around 1/57, both CHY & DOD's racing programs went bye bye.
Fast 'Forward' to 3-years' development program, and we see that CHY, et all, had been planning to exploit the small car and
sporty car fields, which obviously featured floor shifts.
Unfortunately, CHY did not really do anything to develop its own 3-4 speed (floor shift) trannies; when finally produced, their own 3-speed (forget its nomenclature; "Inland shifter") was called the Guess-a-Gear.
It took until late-ish 1963 to bring out a dependable rugged floor shift.
CHY did steadily improve its 3-speed manual trannie, throughout the 50's; one mag (forget which, now) even rather liked the
performance and the gearing of the 1958 Fury's trannie.
So, what's the point of all this....there was no real demand for floor-shifted Forwardlooking sedans, in the 50's, and, the Taxicab transmissions on hand were crap, performance-wise.
None of the other marques had any big-deal floor shifters, including Thunderturd and Cur-vette.
Give CHY credit for seeing that there would be a demand for manually shifted sporty (and small) cars in the early 60's.
Edited by d500neil 2009-06-10 6:29 PM
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Location: Parts Unknown | I am giving them credit for building at least 3 floor shift DeSotos in 1960 with the little round white ball ! Just wish I could confirm this.
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Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | Doctor DeSoto - 2009-06-10 8:38 PM
I am giving them credit for building at least 3 floor shift DeSotos in 1960 with the little round white ball ! Just wish I could confirm this.
Or maybe not ...........................MO |
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Location: Parts Unknown | This car was SO unmolested. If it was dinked with, I would bet it was done there at the dealer, as it was ordered and owned by the dealer's son.
And this is half the reason I want to verify it .... it could have been an entirely built-at-the-dealer go fast machine, and not factory at all (?)
We are talking a STRIPPER Fireflite coupe. I have never seen one before or since that was so bare bones. All black, clear glass, it is the only finned DeSoto I ever handled that had dog dishies and body colored rims. It was the only one I ever saw with no holes for back up lights. It was manual brakes, steering, seats and windows, rubber floor mats, no radio, rubber steering wheel, ... you get the idea.
What it did have was a 383 with crossrams and this 3-speed floor shift and the big 12" brakes. It was pulled out of a holly bush where it had been nosed into for 20 years.
The thing that makes me think it was not made up after the fact was how correct all the little details were like the manual steering and column. Every detail looked OEM and never messed with to a degree that no one would have gone to in a conversion back then.
Not to say it could not have been done. Just that it was a thorough and very correct changeover of a lot of parts to rather unusual equipment that seems excessive to someone just trying to build a hotrod back in the day.
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Location: Seattle | Doctor DeSoto - 2009-06-10 9:02 PM
This car was SO unmolested. If it was dinked with, I would bet it was done there at the dealer, as it was ordered and owned by the dealer's son.
And this is half the reason I want to verify it .... it could have been an entirely built-at-the-dealer go fast machine, and not factory at all (?)
We are talking a STRIPPER Fireflite coupe. I have never seen one before or since that was so bare bones. All black, clear glass, it is the only finned DeSoto I ever handled that had dog dishies and body colored rims. It was the only one I ever saw with no holes for back up lights. It was manual brakes, steering, seats and windows, rubber floor mats, no radio, rubber steering wheel, ... you get the idea.
What it did have was a 383 with crossrams and this 3-speed floor shift and the big 12" brakes. It was pulled out of a holly bush where it had been nosed into for 20 years.
The thing that makes me think it was not made up after the fact was how correct all the little details were like the manual steering and column. Every detail looked OEM and never messed with to a degree that no one would have gone to in a conversion back then.
Not to say it could not have been done. Just that it was a thorough and very correct changeover of a lot of parts to rather unusual equipment that seems excessive to someone just trying to build a hotrod back in the day.
Doctor Desoto are you still in here? Did you find out about the shifter? Do you have any pictures?
I'd love you see your stick Desoto!
The first car I remember riding in was my Grandfather's 1961 Imperial, which later became dad's. Grandfather, a cheesemaker and banker, wanted a 300 but my Grandmother wanted a 4 door. He also liked the double grill of the 1961 Desoto, which he pointed out to me once in 1963 when we got ice-cream, just he and I, telling me they were all gone when he got to the dealer.
The Imperial became dad's car when Grandfather bought a 4dr. Belvedere in 1966, which became dad's in 1972 when the Imperial went to dad's mechanic and then off to Florida with a woman from dad's mechanic's church.
A 1961 floor shift manual everything 2dr. DeSoto is what I seek. Even if there wasn't one originally.
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Location: Ponder, TX | When I worked at a C-P dealership in 1964, we were told by the factory rep to never lose a sale because a part combination was not listed in the books. If possible they would build a special order for any customer and we took advantage of that program several times.
In '64, a New Yorker did not have an optional floor shift manual transmission, but I ordered one for an old farmer who didn't trust automatics. That year a manual floor shift was optional on the Newport, so it wasn't a big deal to slip one into a New Yorker. I just called the regional rep and a few days later he called back with the price and the order codes. That special order program was in effect earlier and maybe as early as '60-'61, so the mystery Desoto might have been part of that program. |
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Location: Eastern Iowa | Umm....Gary....
You do realize this thread is 7 years old?? |
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Location: Ponder, TX | finsruskw - 2016-09-06 7:06 AM
Umm....Gary....
You do realize this thread is 7 years old??
Yes, I do. It was started seven years ago, but the last post was yesterday, and it was in response to him.
Sorry to have offended your need to control post etiquette. |
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Location: Eastern Iowa | offended???
control???
none intended, good grief!! |
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| B/G 61 - 2009-05-26 10:50 AM
Here are some pics from the Hot Rod mag Neil was talking about. Also, the 1961 Ram Chargers car was a Pioneer hard top. I have a video somewhere with it. (and more pics besides this one) I want to say the video is the Lyon's Drag Strip early years or something . . . . I know tiis is a old thread. The 61 Plymouth I just picked up has the same shifter as the 61 dodge in this pic. It has the tall hurst shifter. The Plymouth was last registered in 1984. It has swivel seats that were supposedly not available? Fully loaded with options. It has the auto trans delete plate and a non shifter colum. However the original interior is red and the colum and aero wheel is black. My question is are all columns the same color as interior? I have seem 3 3 speed floor shift 4dr Newport 63s. Can anybody tell me if they had humps or tunnels in them? The story on the Plymouth is that the original owner was a Chrysler excutive in 61. Could he have Chrysler build it special?
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Extreme Veteran
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| Ok not a '61 but I have a '60 Fury 2dr Hard top. It was born with a 318 poly engine and push button. Spent most of it's life on a drag strip. It was ordered by a guy in '59 and took delivery in '60. He owned it for 6 months and traded it back to the dealer it came from because it was too fast for him. My father bought the car and raced it right off the road. No roll cage, no banners, nothing even driving it to the drag strips. In '68 he decided to put a big block in it with a 4 spd. Well the 440 used to set it up was hollow and the 4 spd was put in with a rear end to back it up, it still have the card board band around the left axle tube. A hole was cut for the shifter. I bought the car in '79 from his estate after he died. So with that after a few years, I was 15 I finally got a chance to make it drive again, with no money, no internet and no parts anywhere.
I got my hands on a '65 Fury with a 383 commando engine and very low miles, I had my engine then. Now the trany. The front bearing retainer snout was welded to the plate. So I went and found a Chrysler transmission, luckily. Had to have the outside of the retainer turned down to fit in the mounting, no welded snout. It is a side load. I was told the transmission was a Chrysler type 5 and yet another told me it is a muncie. The shifter is a Hurst with the cue ball type shifter knob.
The issue of changing gears was never addressed from '68-'79. So again, long time ago, trying to make car go vroom again I had to try to come up with a clutch and brake pedal set-up. I found a '61 Valiant with a 3spd and scavanged it's pedal assembly. So with no idea of what a factory set up looked like I franenstiened the Valiants to get it in and make it shift gears. Had a grade washer braised to the top of a grade 8 bolt to make the trowout bearing adjustments. When I fired it up for the 1st time in '86 to move under it's own power it a beast.
My neighbor owned a machine shop and told me "it's best to load it up here at home and let go, rather than some where else to see if it breaks". So I backed out of my driveway and into the street. Brought the rpm's up to around 4,500 and let the clutch go. Car launched and put gravel from the road up on the trunk below the rear window and dug 2 little trenches into the road, and it held together. Problem right away with the clutch. Could not get enough adjustment to back throw out bearing away from pressure plate.
Still have the car and still am looking for the correct clutch and brake pedal set-up. So if anyone might have a correct clutch and brake pedal assembly for a '60 Plymouth Fury I would love to hear from you. I found 1 and he wanted $400.00. I realize these parts are hard to find, but it seems to me nowadays people are wanting the customs powered options with auto trans. I just want a clutch set-up that doesn't ride on the pressure plate. |
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Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia | The 4-speed should have been an A833. That was standard Chrysler issue from 1964 on into the seventies, the correct one for a 440 might have had a larger spline on the input shaft and therefore a larger diameter snout on the bearing retainer.
What do you mean when you say, "...front bearing retainer welded to the plate."? Which 'plate' are you talking about?
Any chance of pics of the bits?
It's very likely that altering little things in the clutch arrangements will deliver the travel you need. Like moving the hole in the pedal downwards just a little. |
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Posts: 371
| Hey there. Ok what I meant by the "bearing retianer being welded to the plate" is not exactly correct in retrospect. What I mean is the snout the throw out bearing slides on had I guess been broken off. With that that is what I mean welded to the plate, the bearing retainer and snout that bolt to the trans face. The retainer I found was if I recall closely the outer diameter was about 7" or so. I needed it turned down to around 4" or so. I could measure it to be exact, not the OE diameter that is. As to changing where the clutch rod mounted from it's pivot I tried but could not find a position to make it travel farther. I cut out a v notch in the clutch pedal and welded it back together and still could not get enough travel. A longer clutch rod would have worked great. With that I tried one out of a truck and still no luck.
I suppose someone with advanced knowledge in engineering could figure it out, but that isn't me. A freind of my dad told me he thought the transmission and rear end were for, if he recalled, a '69 charger. The rear end is posi and not the original. Some thing else it kinda of seems to me is the firewall should have been reinforced to handle a manual. The drive shaft had never been put in. When I did the front slip yoke hit the out put shaft. It is a 4' tube and again did not have the money to have a shop build me a drive shaft. So with a tape measure and crayon I marked and had it cut and rewelded, it had the needed travel then without binding.
Every since then my theory is if your taking an auto matic and making it a manual, have an exact parts car. In todays world I suppose it's different now. I suppose you could use a hydrauilc clutch or call sumit and see what they can come up with. But when it comes to hot rods I still say carb and mechanical linkage, true test. Also I can't get any picture I take to be at or below the 250 what ever limit, other wise I'd upload a pic of my trans and frankenfurtered brake and clutch set up. |
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Expert
Posts: 2473
Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia | Put your pic up on your computer screen, click on 'prtsc' or 'print screen' whatever your computer keyboard has for that function together with 'control' at the same time.
This will result in a lower resolution version of your pic being on your clipboard, paste it to a picture viewer and save it.
Or e.mail the original to me and I'll reduce and post it for you. raybell@racingphoenix.com |
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