Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up
john samsen
Posted 2010-03-03 12:39 PM (#212346)
Subject: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Hey Mopar fans...
I just joined this forum. I was a designer in the Chrysler corp. styling studios from 1955 through 1976. I'm now 82, and still going strong- well, fairly strong!
You can see lots of info and videos on my website http://www.CollectibleArt.net/

I will be presenting an audio-visual program on styling the classic Mopars at the Carlisle PA All-Chrysler Nationals show, July, 2010.

If anyone has questions about the designers and styling programs at Chrysler Corp. during the classic era, post them, and I'll try to answer them.
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57burb
Posted 2010-03-03 2:52 PM (#212363 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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WOW!!

First, thank you for joining our site! I won't be able to make the meet in PA, but I am interested in hearing anything you have to say about the Chrysler styling studios during the '50s and '60s. Some of the best looking American cars of all time were produced from your group. What role did you have in the studio?
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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2010-03-03 5:29 PM (#212380 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Welcome to the site John!

I'm wondering, how did you 'look' at the final production styling of the cars you had drawn a couple of years earlier?
What would be, for you (perhaps in hindsight), design and styling-features that shouldn't have been incorporated or made it into production cars of certain years?
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lawrence
Posted 2010-03-03 8:33 PM (#212406 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Welcome John!

I have a question too. Is it true that the designs of the cars were almost 10 yrs before production?
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58Donnie
Posted 2010-03-03 8:48 PM (#212411 - in reply to #212406)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up


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Welcome. Thank you for joining this forum. I sent you a PM
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Ex-finlover
Posted 2010-03-03 10:41 PM (#212426 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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FYI - John Samsen's made a great DVD about his career in the car design business. Lots of styling studio sketches and behind the scenes stories. If you can't make Carlisle - think about getting a copy of the DVD from his website. It's also on ebay if that's easier for you.

http://stores.ebay.com/ArtFindsUSA-car-design-art-and-DVD__W0QQ_fsu...

If you like car design and automotive history - you don't want to miss it!

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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-06 2:58 PM (#212720 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Hi all!

First, we usually worked three years ahead on new body designs. However, some ideas we designers came up with were not seen in production until many years later.

"I'm wondering, how did you 'look' at the final production styling of the cars you had drawn a couple of years earlier?
What would be, for you (perhaps in hindsight), design and styling-features that shouldn't have been incorporated or made it into production cars of certain years?"

We were never completely happy with our designs that made it to production, because they were modified by engineering and the personal taste of company execs. We had to make our styles conform with the look that our management wanted; Exner, Engle, etc. I personally did not like much ornamentation on cars, and wanted all wheels to be fully shown. I did not like the exaggerated fins that some of the later F.W. cars had, and thought grilles were too wide- i.e. 1962 Plymouth. My taste fit pretty well with Ex's.

I did this concept in 1955; it was not what I personally would have wanted but we had to go along with the trends of the time.


Edited by john samsen 2010-03-06 3:03 PM




(DS 57 9x72.jpg)



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Attachments DS 57 9x72.jpg (40KB - 430 downloads)
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-03-06 3:21 PM (#212723 - in reply to #212720)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Hi John,

Wow, ... isn't this a golden opportunity !

OK, ... I'll start with :

I have always been baffled by the incontinuity of the 1959 cars - the rear end treatment in particular - from the rest of the evolution.

What was going on in the halls and around the water cooler that caused the fins to slant forward and the otherwise crisp lines of bumpers,
hood edges, headlights, etc. suddenly get bulky, only to radically change back in 1960 ? I will use the 59 Chrysler rear bumper and grille
integration as examples.

Where did the ovoid / round dot theme come from on otherwise angular, jaunty cars ?

Thank you for joining our group. I look forward to your input here !
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hemidenis
Posted 2010-03-06 3:53 PM (#212728 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Wow is great to have you here

i knew that 57 were the first Exner designed cars, i have a picture of the final clay model of my 1961 Chrysler and is dated 4/17/1959. John please post any comments you would like 55-61 models before a gazillion guys in here ask for a particular model.
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B/G 61
Posted 2010-03-06 4:11 PM (#212729 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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I'll dive in like many will with a question about a specific car - the '61 Dodge . . . Is it true the final design was picked out of the trash on a crumpled piece of paper ??? ANYTHING you want to say about the '61 Dodge and its design I'm ALL EARS (eyes )
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sidesho_bob1961
Posted 2010-03-06 4:47 PM (#212734 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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John, I really like that concept drawing!!! Kind of a combination of forward look and Ford styling of the late fifties (which I'm also fond of). Side trim and body lines are similar to a 57 Ford. Roof line and glass definitely looks like forward look. Please post some more!!
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-09 6:59 PM (#213123 - in reply to #212723)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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r.e. Dr. Desoto's querie...

I have never noticed a discontinuity in the late '59's. Thanks for calling my attention to it! We were working on the '59's during 1956 and '57. So were the other Am. companies. The pressure was on to keep finding different looking fins- and naturally, this led to some pretty bizzare designs. Also, quad headlamps were in, which created wide front fenders. Carrying fender shapes back through the doors led to more bulbous shapes. A sketch of mine (which happens to be in the upcoming Barrett/Jackson auction at Palm Beach) led to the rear end design for the 1960 Desoto. I also directed the clay modelling of the 1959 Desoto rear end, and have the design patents for the rear sheet metal and bumper. (I'm not attached to this concept, and if anyone thinks it stinks, I won't object.)

P.S. I think the 1957 Desotos were the best designs of the series. A designer Jack Koenitz was chiefly responsible for the '57 Desoto and Chrysler body. Exner was not involved in that design, except to OK it.

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-09 7:18 PM




(57-60 DS rear green 5X72.jpg)



(59 DS rear6x72.jpg)



(60desoto rear.jpg)



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Attachments 57-60 DS rear green 5X72.jpg (26KB - 419 downloads)
Attachments 59 DS rear6x72.jpg (56KB - 393 downloads)
Attachments 60desoto rear.jpg (30KB - 383 downloads)
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-09 7:31 PM (#213127 - in reply to #212729)
Subject: RE: 1961 Desoto



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My father once told me that If I couldn't say something nice, then don't say anything! So I won't tell how much I dislike the '61 Desoto front end. I'm glad I didn't work on this. I don't like slanted headlamps on this year's Desoto and Chrysler, and didn't like them on Lincolns. If anyone cherishes a '61 Desoto or Chrysler, let me try to soften this critique by saying it is cool to own rare collector cars, like Edsels, etc. even if they didn't take prizes for their styling. There is something neat about strange designs. Evidently the public thinks so, because they buy the square box cars that Honda and others put out.



(1961DeSoto_1.jpg)



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Attachments 1961DeSoto_1.jpg (29KB - 463 downloads)
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dukeboy
Posted 2010-03-09 7:47 PM (#213133 - in reply to #213127)
Subject: RE: 1961 Desoto



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john samsen - 2010-03-09 7:31 PM

Evidently the public thinks so, because they buy the square box cars that Honda and others put out.


Mr. Samsen, IMO, the buying public is always looking for a way to "Be Different" and they have taken this to the extreme with the above mentioned "Boxes" from Honda and Nissan...Same thing with the '61 Desoto, and Chrysler's canted Headlamps...While different, it really is that way because nobody else really cares for it all that much....Now the "in" thing when trying to be different is to get ahold of some of those "Huge" Rear fins that you thought were to much...People just love those big 'ol fins...

Edited by dukeboy 2010-03-09 7:49 PM
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suburban61
Posted 2010-03-09 7:53 PM (#213136 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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hello john and welcome...

i would like to ask who exactly designed the '61 plymouths? there has been names thrown around here and there, and also the fact that the front was originally designed as a rear... are you able to clear this up? also i have long wondered which name should take credit for the gorgeous illustrations of the '61 plymouth and valiant range in the sales brochures, unfortunately they were not given the credit that they deserved, unlike art fitzpatrick who was allowed to initial all his pontiac illustrations and receives recognition... there also seems to be a huge void when it comes to images available of the '61 plymouth production, being lack of concept sketched, photos of clay models etc... there seems to be these images for other years/ models but not for the '61 plymouth...

sorry that was alot of questions, but i hope that you can clear a couple of them up at least...

thankyou for your time...

adriana
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1960DesotoAdventurer
Posted 2010-03-09 8:02 PM (#213139 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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john samsen - 2010-03-03 12:39 PM

Hey Mopar fans...
I just joined this forum. I was a designer in the Chrysler corp. styling studios from 1955 through 1976. I'm now 82, and still going strong- well, fairly strong!
You can see lots of info and videos on my website http://www.CollectibleArt.net/

I will be presenting an audio-visual program on styling the classic Mopars at the Carlisle PA All-Chrysler Nationals show, July, 2010.

If anyone has questions about the designers and styling programs at Chrysler Corp. during the classic era, post them, and I'll try to answer them.




Welcome John!
Wow! it sure must have been exciting to work in the Chrysler design dept. during 1956-1961 when the Forward Look cars were pushing the styling envelope to the limit and turning dream cars into production models.
I am curious,what is your personal favorite Forward Look model of all? Did you ever get to see any of Virgil Exners personal experimental cars? I recall seeing a photo of a plymouth he designed where the fins were almost as tall as the roof!

Edited by 1960DesotoAdventurer 2010-03-09 8:06 PM
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1960DesotoAdventurer
Posted 2010-03-09 8:16 PM (#213145 - in reply to #213127)
Subject: RE: 1961 Desoto



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john samsen - 2010-03-09 7:31 PM

My father once told me that If I couldn't say something nice, then don't say anything! So I won't tell how much I dislike the '61 Desoto front end. I'm glad I didn't work on this. I don't like slanted headlamps on this year's Desoto and Chrysler, and didn't like them on Lincolns. If anyone cherishes a '61 Desoto or Chrysler, let me try to soften this critique by saying it is cool to own rare collector cars, like Edsels, etc. even if they didn't take prizes for their styling. There is something neat about strange designs. Evidently the public thinks so, because they buy the square box cars that Honda and others put out.


I'd have to agree with you on this one.
I dont think the '61's are ugly,but they certainly are an anticlimax after the beauty of the 1960's.
the top grille looks out of place and tacked on,and I dont like the tailight treatment as much as the 60's,although the Chryslers suffered even worse and had their beautiful boomerangs replaced with chrome inserts.
I also like the "winged" chevron style bumper on the 60's best.
I guess it would be like the 1957-1958 Plymouths,I have never liked the '59s as much with the "toilet seat" on the trunk and scalloped headlight brows.

I dont think change for change sake was a good idea.

P.S. was the "flight sweep" treatment (faux wheelcover) objected to by any of the designers? I have read many people didnt like it and derisively nicknamed it "toilet seat"

Edited by 1960DesotoAdventurer 2010-03-09 8:19 PM
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1960DesotoAdventurer
Posted 2010-03-09 8:30 PM (#213147 - in reply to #212720)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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john samsen - 2010-03-06 2:58 PM

Hi all!

First, we usually worked three years ahead on new body designs. However, some ideas we designers came up with were not seen in production until many years later.

"I'm wondering, how did you 'look' at the final production styling of the cars you had drawn a couple of years earlier?
What would be, for you (perhaps in hindsight), design and styling-features that shouldn't have been incorporated or made it into production cars of certain years?"

We were never completely happy with our designs that made it to production, because they were modified by engineering and the personal taste of company execs. We had to make our styles conform with the look that our management wanted; Exner, Engle, etc. I personally did not like much ornamentation on cars, and wanted all wheels to be fully shown. I did not like the exaggerated fins that some of the later F.W. cars had, and thought grilles were too wide- i.e. 1962 Plymouth. My taste fit pretty well with Ex's.

I did this concept in 1955; it was not what I personally would have wanted but we had to go along with the trends of the time.



John this concept drawing is breathtaking!
This car should have been made!,I love the rocket worked into the side of the tailfin and leading to an afterburner tailight! and the roofline is so gracefull and sleek.
What model was this a concept for?
In my opinion when the Forward Look ended,the fins and Jetsons dashes were gone and Chrysler no longer used the twin boomerangs as their logo things would never be the same again.
Those are the most beautiful cars made,and I personally think everything that has come since has been a step backward...we dont know what futuristic is anymore,the cars now are ugly and things that are supposed to be futuristic,just look plain nerdy and clumsy.

Edited by 1960DesotoAdventurer 2010-03-09 8:33 PM
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-10 10:32 PM (#213288 - in reply to #213133)
Subject: RE: Exner, big fins, etc.



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Hi all!

So you like big fins! So did Exner; obviously, the bigger the better!

I still get a smile when I see the Chrysler with big fins. I remember when we designers saw this clay outside in the viewing area, and most of us couldn't believe it!

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-10 10:37 PM




(Chrysler BIG fins 8x72.jpg)



(XNR hardtop 8x72.jpg)



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Attachments Chrysler BIG fins 8x72.jpg (71KB - 476 downloads)
Attachments XNR hardtop 8x72.jpg (39KB - 452 downloads)
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-10 11:12 PM (#213294 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE:Exner styling



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First, I must say I don't know who worked directly on the '61 Plymouth. At that time, I was still in the Desoto studio. Hal Pilkey was manager of the Plymouth studio at that time, and probably had something to do with that design.

As to my favorite FWLK car, I have always liked the 1957 Desoto Fireflite the best- clean lines, well sculpted forms. Unfortunately, new models usually are the best designs, and facelifts often spoil or add unnecessary elements to the original design.

Now I'd like to talk about Exner, who I have always respected as a good designer. Like all good designers, he came up with great designs and bad designs.
He came to Chrysler to develop advanced design concepts. During the early fifties, he and his team of designers, Cliff Voss, Maury Baldwin, etc. created the twenty-some concept cars that were hand-made at Ghia body works in Italy. As you know, the designs were "automotive looking" rather than like aircraft and rockets, like Earl was doing at GM. All the Am. car companies except GM were considering following European styling, and Ford had three concept cars from Cisitalia, Hudson, Nash, and Packard had cars styled by Farina. Then somehow, the companies decided to do what GM was doing, and went "futuristic". Evidently it was a wise move, as the public loved that trend.

I believe Exner personally liked the "automotive look", which was to feature the wheels with fender forms, and use elements from past cars such as radiator/grilles, visible spare tires, visible exhaust systems, louvers, etc. Basically, I went along with his philosophy, and the old design cliche "form follows function".
Now when I arrived at Desoto studio in 1955, I was shown a 3/8 size clay model that looked just like the production '57 Desoto. The story I was told was that Desoto designer Jack Koenitz designed it. They told me that the studios produced their designs for the '57 lineup in competition with the models from Exner's private studio. Ex's designs were similar to the K-310, while the studios' designs had big fins, etc. The company execs bought the designs from the studios. After that, Exner jumped on the fin bandwagon. I thought his XNR assymetrical design was really clever, but he went to EXtremes with the models shown above.

I have discussed this with my friend Virgil Exner Jr., and he didn't know about this story. At any rate, Ex used his basic design package on a number of his designs. The 1960 Valiant is pure Exner. His design was used on the Karmann/Ghia VW. Most of us designers were against using "toilet seat" dummy spares and Virgil Jr. says he tried to talk Ex out of that cliche' on cars that the two Exners collaborated on, like the reincarnated Stutz, but failed.

Here is an Exner sketch for a concept car- his basic design themes.

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-11 9:38 AM




('51 SKETCH C. SPL 8x72.jpg)



(1953 CHRYSLER D'ELEGANCE 8x72.JPG)



(Stutz 8x72.jpg)



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Attachments '51 SKETCH C. SPL 8x72.jpg (42KB - 379 downloads)
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roadkillontheweb
Posted 2010-03-10 11:30 PM (#213296 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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I am sure this is a long shot but do you think you could identify these two guys making the clay mock up for the 1958 Plymouth Fury JR?



(plymouth clay.jpg)



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Attachments plymouth clay.jpg (94KB - 441 downloads)
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-11 8:23 AM (#213325 - in reply to #213296)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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roadkillontheweb - 2010-03-10 11:30 PM

I am sure this is a long shot but do you think you could identify these two guys making the clay mock up for the 1958 Plymouth Fury JR?


I remember these guys, and worked with them, but their names don't pop up in my memory yet. Maybe later.

After designing all kinds of fins for several years, Exner told us that fins were a passing fad, and in the sixties, they would die out. Our task was to come up with other treatments for the rear quarters that wouldn't look like we were going backward to previous car design. That was difficult. Another thing Ex said was that future cars would be wedge shaped- low in front and high in back. The fins gave that look, but we had to find ways to get from the low front to a high, short rear deck. When Engle took over, he directed our design along the lines that GM and Ford were taking- fenders higher over the front wheels, taspering down to the rear, usually with rear wheels hidden, to some extent. Most of today's cars are wedge-shaped, and show the wheels. And most grilles are narrower. I think Ex would like todays style, which is not too different from many of his Ghia concept cars.. However, Ex was a passionate innovator, and wouldn't want his cars to disappear among the many generic-looking cars of today, so he would probably be off in a new direction.

I just came up with a theme for my Carlisle presentation- I think I'll call it "The Forward Look and the Backward Glance". The Exner era of innovative design, followed by the Engle era of following GM and Ford designs. This change came about as Tex Colbert who wanted to lead the industry in design gave control of the company to Lynn Townsend, who just wanted to make money and play it safe. I liked Engle, as a person, and thought him a rather good designer, but he wasn't passionate about good design as Exner was. The rear of his Chrysler Turbine car was an example of his design style, and was a takeoff from the Ford "La Galaxie" show car.

As to seeing Ex's concept cars, yes, we saw most of them. One of the perks with being a designer was that we got to test drive most cars of the competition as well as Mopars, and for a while I was able to lease four cars per year. We went to the big dealer introductory shows, like "Suddenly its 1960!" and other car events and races. We also could buy Mopar cars that hea been used for various purposes at a very low price. I got my parents such cars as 1959 Plymouth, 1958 Imperial, 1964 New Yorker, etc.

One day, Elwood dropped the keys to a Turbine on my desk, and told me to drive it for a while.


Edited by john samsen 2010-03-11 9:11 AM




(58lagalaxie 8x72.jpg)



(JRSturbine 8x72.jpg)



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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-11 9:31 AM (#213329 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re "Virgil Exner, Visioneer"



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For those interested in how the FWLK cars came into being, and don't already have it, I highly recomend Peter Grist's new book "Virgil Exner, Visioneer". Much of the material and pictures in it were from Virgil Exner Jr. I also contributed some info and images to Peter, and a couple of my design sketches appear in the book.
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catman
Posted 2010-03-11 9:48 AM (#213332 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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John,

Thanks for sharing. I read every post with great interest.
As an owner of a 1959 Dodge Custom Sierra, I am curious to see if you have any anecdotes and stories about station wagon development. Maybe you have sketches and pictures you can share?

Thanks.

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Billy-Jack Ebare
Posted 2010-03-12 1:45 AM (#213498 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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It is truly an honor to have you on board Mr. Samsen. I speak for many undoubtedly when I say thank you for allowing us this rare opportunity. Many of us here have been passionate about the cars of the Forward Look, and Virgil Exner for many many years. Your wealth of information and knowledge on this subject is truly astounding, and appreciated. Being a 1960 Desoto Adventurer owner, I would like to know any information you could tell me in regards to this design. Likes/dislikes, how this became the final 1960 design concept, how much influence did Virgil Exner have on it, and who decided what changes were made to models sold internationally, i.e. interior packages, badging etc. My particular Desoto was sold new in Windsor Ontario, Canada, and was fitted by Chrysler Corp Canada with a 1960 Saratoga interior. Any information you might have would be greatly appreciated. Below are a few pics of my 1960 Canadian built Adventurer 2 door Hardtop. Thank You.



(Billy Jack 1960 desoto 002.jpg)



(2277097640043366320VgqmyG_fs.jpg)



(2212866000043366320koLVzK_ph.jpg)



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Attachments Billy Jack 1960 desoto 002.jpg (193KB - 349 downloads)
Attachments 2277097640043366320VgqmyG_fs.jpg (212KB - 375 downloads)
Attachments 2212866000043366320koLVzK_ph.jpg (74KB - 340 downloads)
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roadkillontheweb
Posted 2010-03-12 6:47 AM (#213509 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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I have a 1956 Desoto Diplomat Utility Coupe (UTE) that was built in Australia. And as you can see it has a 54 plymouth body even though is was built in 56

The car based truck was a good seller in Australia since the 30s and Chevy and Ford got on the ball in the late 50s here in the states with the ranchero and El Camino but Chrysler never embraced the concept here in the states till the 80s.
WHY?


Sure they slapped a set of station wagon fenders on a truck for a few years with the septsides but the whole light truck on a passenger car platform was never attempted.

1957 Desoto sweptside (for export only) only known photo and nobody seems to know where it went.
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suburban61
Posted 2010-03-12 7:22 AM (#213513 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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lee, how did your ute get to the states? did you import it yourself or did you find it over there? we dont even see them over here... ive seen a few of the chrysler royal wayfarers (utes) but i dont think ive seen any of the earlier chrysler corp utes... adriana
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-12 8:33 AM (#213516 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Billy Jack,

Your Adventurer is outstanding!

It's dificult to give many details about designing these Desotos because of the way Exner set-up the design process. At GM and Ford, designers worked in the same rooms where the full size clay models were developed, and guided the clay modeling. Exner had the clay models developed in separate rooms from the designers' studios, and we were discouraged from entering the clay rooms. Designers produced lots of concept sketches, and the studio manager and assistant studied them, then guided the clay models. If our ideas were used on the clay, we usually were not told. We did have 3/8 scale clay models in our studios to develop our ideas in 3-D, and a few clay modelers to sculpt them.

I came up with a concept for the 1960 Desoto-Chrysler body, and our manager, Tom Bannister, liked it and had a modeler do a 3/8 model of it, with my guidance. When Exner's assistant, Cliff Voss, came in the room and saw it, he was extatic. "This is it- the '60 Desoto" he exclaimed. "Wait till Ex sees it!!" The idea of the design was to have a fin peaking over the rear wheel, and a reflected shape below it; the sketch is shown below. There was to be a show to choose the '60 design from models in the Desoto and Chrysler studios. When Ex was brought in, he said he liked the design. I was excited, hoping to have my design chosen. The next day, Ex and Voss came in, and Ex asked that the upper fin be moved back a few inches. I could see that this would destroy the symmetry, but didn't say anything. The following day they returned, and the model looked worse. I hoped Ex would let me move the fin back where it belonged, but instead, he said to move it further rearward. It looked worse, and when they saw it again, Ex said to move the fins all the way back. After this was done, Ex decided not to put this model in the show. I was really disappointed.

When Engle came to head up the design department, he had the designers and full size clays together, and designers guided the modeling of their designs, as was done at Ford. We designers were much happier with this system.



Edited by john samsen 2010-03-12 8:38 AM




(57 reflected fin 8x72.jpg)



('60 DS Refl fin rendering 8x72.jpg)



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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-12 9:16 AM (#213518 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Here's a picture of Desoto design studio in 1956. That's me with the striped tie in center.

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-12 9:17 AM




(56 Desoto studio 8x72.jpg)



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57burb
Posted 2010-03-12 9:56 AM (#213519 - in reply to #213518)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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john samsen - 2010-03-12 8:16 AM

Here's a picture of Desoto design studio in 1956. That's me with the striped tie in center.


John-

I work for an advertising company, and if I were to take a picture of our Creative Studio here, it would look eerily similar to this photo! You can see on our website that we have the same color palette. Maybe there is something inspiring in those colors! http://www.rapp.com/home/

I'm working on a '57 New Yorker, which I think was one of the cleanest and most elegant designs to emerge from the Mopar studios. When I was looking for a project, I was set on a big-body '57-58 Chrysler or DeSoto, with '57 preferred. This is a Photoshop of what my car will look like when done. http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a274/46Tbird/NewYorker/57NYer10.j...

I appreciate your sharing some of those images of Exner's projects. I don't think I've seen any of them before. I like the asymmetrical stuff that was being done and would like to have seen it in production.

That drawing you did of the '60 DeSoto design just flipped a switch in my head. I always knew there was something that needed to be integrated better with the front-end design. The rear bumper shown in the drawing is very derivative of DeSoto styling for '57, which I would guess is the timeframe it came from. Very interesting to see, and would make a tasteful customization of an original '60-61 car.

Thank you for letting us bend your ear!
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JERSEYBOB
Posted 2010-03-12 10:08 AM (#213520 - in reply to #213516)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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John,
I'll repeat what everyone else has already said; Thanks so much for your input here. This is the stuff we are passionate for. The photos, stories and sketches are invaluable. It is truely a unique experience for us.
I was wondering, when Ex had you move the fins back, why did you change the rear edge angle? The trailing edge on your green sketch would have been a departure, and therefore evolution to the existing fins. I love the svelte lines of the 2 dr sketch. If only the production models could have portrayed that vertical to horizontal scale...
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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2010-03-12 6:58 PM (#213563 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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John,
of course the fin's were a design-feature, but were some fin-designs ever put into windtunnel-testing to see if they had any postive or negative effect on highspeed car stability or roadmanners?
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StillOutThere
Posted 2010-03-12 9:34 PM (#213587 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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John,  Thank you for honoring us with your reminisences and willingness to respond to questions.   And thanks for your work on the design of the 1960 Chrysler from a 300F owner.



(Front_sml.jpg)



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(Rear_sml.jpg)



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roadkillontheweb
Posted 2010-03-12 10:50 PM (#213593 - in reply to #213513)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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suburban61 - 2010-03-12 6:22 AM

lee, how did your ute get to the states? did you import it yourself or did you find it over there? we dont even see them over here... ive seen a few of the chrysler royal wayfarers (utes) but i dont think ive seen any of the earlier chrysler corp utes... adriana :)


Actually I purchased two UTEs and had them shipped here to Iowa from Townsville Queensland AU

I have since sold the Plymouth but the Desoto stays. And I believe it is the only one in the states?
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roadkillontheweb
Posted 2010-03-13 4:54 AM (#213610 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Cars like these make me wonder why Chrysler never entered the light truck passenger car based market here in the states.
the rear rooflines might not look the best but the fins lend well to the bed sides and the quarters flow into the cab much better than the Sweptsides. Also the tailgates do not seem to be out of place with the style like on the sweptsides. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a sweptside but I think the forward look styling would have went well with the whole car/truck market.



(chrysler011.jpg)



(uteb.jpg)



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(chrysler000.JPG)



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suburban61
Posted 2010-03-13 8:03 AM (#213621 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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you must have taken them all, as i have never seen one before... here is another chrysler royal wayfarer.... i think they are great... adriana



(P1000486.jpg)



(P1000492.jpg)



(P1000058.jpg)



(1960 Chrysler Royal ute.jpg)



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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-13 8:20 AM (#213622 - in reply to #213563)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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BigBlockMopar - 2010-03-12 6:58 PM

John,
of course the fin's were a design-feature, but were some fin-designs ever put into windtunnel-testing to see if they had any postive or negative effect on highspeed car stability or roadmanners?


Before the Forward Look, fins were used on racing cars for aerodynamic stability. The idea is to have the side view center of area behind the center of gravity, as on aircraft. Many of todays finless cars are wedge shaped, and this contributes to cross wind stability.

Some European cars used fins for this reason as well as styling effect.

Chrysler engineers did test the 57 Desoto in a wind tunnel, and this gave Ex a case for functionality for the fins, which satisfied the industrial design creed "Form follows Function".



(cisitalia_202_cmm_aerodyn1.jpg)



(cisitalia_202_cmm_aerodyn_1100.jpg)



(57 Ds wind tunnel.jpg)



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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-13 8:41 AM (#213627 - in reply to #213520)
Subject: Re: Evolution in design



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JERSEYBOB - 2010-03-12 10:08 AM

John,

I was wondering, when Ex had you move the fins back, why did you change the rear edge angle? The trailing edge on your green sketch would have been a departure, and therefore evolution to the existing fins. I love the svelte lines of the 2 dr sketch. If only the production models could have portrayed that vertical to horizontal scale...


To my knowlege, no one in Ford or Chrysler design considered evolution of design. The top execs, especially C CEO Tex Colbert, believed the public wanted exciting, unique cars, and the pressure was on to make each model as different as possible. As much sheet metal was carried over for two or three years, the models in between new ones were face-lifted, which sometimes looked like an evolution, but the attempt was to make them as different as possible. There was a conscious effort to carry on an identity of make on some cars, by continuing design themes of grilles, tail lamps, etc. as in the Cadillac and Pontiac grilles, the Ford round tail lamps, etc. Chrysler did not put much emphasis on identity, except in a few cars like the C 300... BTW, I really like that black 300 even with Exner's "potty seat"!

On the reflected fin design, I first moved the upper fin back, but it had no relation to the lower design shape, so I changed the trailing edge to relate to the lower element. I (and Cliff Voss) didn't like the mod as well as the first design, but Ex kept changing it and killed it rather than go back to what I originally had.

I do like the FW Utes, and think they would have been well accepted in the USA. We designers often questioned the descisions of Chrysler management!
The styling of export models (or Canadian-built) was not done in our styling department in Highland Park, so we didn'y know much about it.

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-13 9:02 AM
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-13 4:26 PM (#213687 - in reply to #213332)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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catman - 2010-03-11 9:48 AM

John,

Thanks for sharing. I read every post with great interest.
As an owner of a 1959 Dodge Custom Sierra, I am curious to see if you have any anecdotes and stories about station wagon development. Maybe you have sketches and pictures you can share?

Thanks.

:cool:


Sorry, Catman, but the wagons were designed in a separate studio rather remote from the carline studios, and I had little contact with the designing there. The Station Wagon manager during the '50's was Jim Huggins, and one of the designers who worked on the show wagons Plainsman and Cabana was Dave Scott. I owned several wagons, and liked that body type a lot.



(1956_CHRYSLER_PLAINSMAN 8x72.JPG)



(1958_PLYMOUTH_CABANA 8x72.JPG)



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1960DesotoAdventurer
Posted 2010-03-14 3:30 PM (#213814 - in reply to #213288)
Subject: RE: Exner, big fins, etc.



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john samsen - 2010-03-10 10:32 PM

Hi all!

So you like big fins! So did Exner; obviously, the bigger the better!

I still get a smile when I see the Chrysler with big fins. I remember when we designers saw this clay outside in the viewing area, and most of us couldn't believe it!


HAH! Thats the one I was talking about!
I saw a photo in an old magazine of Virgil Exner driving the car home from work,if I kind find it I'll post it here.
Whatever became of the car?
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1960DesotoAdventurer
Posted 2010-03-14 3:49 PM (#213816 - in reply to #213621)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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suburban61 - 2010-03-13 8:03 AM

you must have taken them all, as i have never seen one before... here is another chrysler royal wayfarer.... i think they are great... adriana :)



THESE ARE AMAZING! I had never seen or heard of the wayfarer before!,why didnt we get this model in America??
I love these much more than the sweptside because it combines the look of the Plymouth car,fins and all with the bed of a truck,much like the el camino did.
How rare are these Wayfarers? how many years were they made?
I notice there is even a photo of one that says DeSoto on the tailgate.
GREAT NOW I WANT ONE!
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1960DesotoAdventurer
Posted 2010-03-14 4:01 PM (#213818 - in reply to #213294)
Subject: RE:Exner styling



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John Samsen-[The 1960 Valiant is pure Exner. His design was used on the Karmann/Ghia VW. Most of us designers were against using "toilet seat" dummy spares and Virgil Jr. says he tried to talk Ex out of that cliche' on cars that the two Exners collaborated on, like the reincarnated Stutz, but failed. ]


Thanks for taking the time to answer our questions and give us a greater insight into what was going on in the design dept. during the Forward Look era.
Its incredible to actually be able to talk with someone that was involved with these great cars!

Unfortunately,I have to agree with you and Virgil Exner Jr. the "classic elements" like the toilet seat look out of place and awkward on these futuristic cars. To qoute Will Darnell,I guess Virgil Jr. should have "talked harder".

I have to confess I have never liked the 1960 Valiant and actually think its quite ugly to be honest. It seems mis-shapen and clunky looking,like it was left out on a hot day and melted in the sun
I never understood how that car could have sold when it was up against the beautiful full sized finned Plymouths. I know they were trying to compete with the Falcon and the Comet,but the comet was a much more attractive car.
Besides,you could have the slant 6 in a belveder in 1960 and gotten economy and style,so what was the need for the valiant?

I would be interested to know what you and the other designers thought about the Valiant at the time......am I the only one who thinks its ugly? it didnt even seem to be a Chrylser product the way it looked.



Edited by 1960DesotoAdventurer 2010-03-14 4:08 PM
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-03-14 5:00 PM (#213832 - in reply to #213818)
Subject: RE:Exner styling



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One must keep the Valiant in perspective with the times.

The Valiant, Comet/Falcon, and the mondo-toady Corvair were all market RESPONSES to the 1958 recession and increased market share going to the Rambler and the new Lark.
and were rushed into production to meet an emerging market. As such, it is interesting to see how each company arrived "on the scene".

Ford was the perinneal purveyor of boxy (square) bodies covered in trim to decieve the eye into thinking it was contoured. The Falcon followed this design theme, with the Mercury
playing their usual hand as Ford's more "out there" version of the same car. Besides the more pronounced fins, even the Comet was a shoebox of slab sides and vertical/horizontal
proportions.

The Corvair was a disgusting looking little turd of a car. A true leader in "WTF?" styling that would sweep fins out the door in the early 60's.

While I cannot get with the truncated proportions of the Valiant and overly sculpted body panels for such a small car, but in comparison to the rest of the market, one could argue they
at least had character. Also, unlike the rest of the competition, the Valiant got a nod from engineering and could actually whoop some serious axx out on the track. So much so, that
organized racing quickly gave up the notion of a small car class because the Valiant simply trounced all comers.

Personally, I fall to a way of designthink that embraces the "futuristic" bubble-top look (about the only ovoid shape I accept from the period) and the angular, windswept look of well
proportioned fins. For this reason, I think the 56 Dodge rules the 1st generation cars, and the 59's are just plain bass-ackwards to a sweet and clear evolution of design and sheetmetal
fashion of the times. By the time the Valiant came on the scene it was likely a situation similar to when the cackroaches go scattering when the lights come on in all the design studios
to come up with something to gracefully exit the finned "future", .... something ALL mfr's dreadfully missed the mark on. This logic probably only holds true with the unabashedly fanatic
fin fan, which I proudly carry the torch for. But for me, all cars made after 1958 were, by degrees, less and less interesting, only briefly bouyed by some of the mid-late 60's cars. But
even these boxes were a far cry from the zenith of post-war design ... the FL era. As such, how can we even compare them ? Kinda like comparing the clouds overhead with a knife
wound. Just cuz Exner was "in da house" hardly constitutes a "given" that all his oversighted ideas were good ones, or kept to the original ideal that I personally favor. I mean, given
the constraints of designing such a small car, how else could one do it better ? It still doesn't mean I like it, but in the context of the design parameters, was pretty good. If I had to
choose from the Valiant-Comet-Falcon-Corvair-Lark-Rambler field, I would have no choice but to go for the Valiant ! Add a 58 Plymouth to the equation and even the Valiant is heading
for the crusher. I deeply resent the post fin cars as the harbingers of the end of all things cool. To me, the 62 offerings were nothing but parts cars for the "obviously" favorable earlier
cars. As such, getting too nitty about the post-acme designs is an increasingly futile argument of diminishing relevance.

John,

I would be interested in your comments regarding the hierarchy of "trickle down" where form followed function, such as the increasing gov't pressure for safety bumpers, etc. and how it
effected your work. Were staff meetings held where Engineering gave Design the news that certain new things had to be made to work, and how did you feel about such "developments" ?

B.



Edited by Doctor DeSoto 2010-03-14 5:03 PM
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-14 7:18 PM (#213849 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Valiant design



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Well, I, and a lot of designers I knew, liked the '60 Valiant. It has character, much more than the (duh) Falcon and other conpacts. I even accepted the toilet seat, as it seemed appropriate to the traditional Exner look, but liked the Dart rear better. I especially liked the Valiant wagon. I have always been partial to small cars, especially sports cars, and good handling is a must for me- something that most big cars of the '50's and '60's didn't have. The Valiant was not an exciting looking car, but looked solid and the styling held together as a whole.

I also liked the Corvair Monza converts, probably because they were small and innovative.

Inputs from Engineering and other departments were given to styling management, then passed down to the designers. Often we had to make changes that hurt our designs, but we had to go along with them. Usually we could see some value in the directives, but sometimes the changes were just for personal ideas if higher management people. Big Jim Zeder, VP of Engineering, sent down a directive to have all rear bumpers extend x-many inches behind and along side all sheet metal. Mrs. Zeder backed their Imperial out a long driveway that curved because of a tree. She continually managed to hit the tree with the rear bumper, and did some damage to the rear quarter. The gov't. mandated safety rules seemed reasonable to me, and I had no problem working with them. I did resent the mandate for air bags- I thought a better and cheaper safety idea was to have sharp blades in the panel and overhead that would intimidate drivers and make them careful!

We had engineering people in the studio often to advise as to if our shapes could be stamped, and what various designs would cost. We also had permanent studio engineers to work out door openings, window drops, etc. They acted as liason with Engineering, and often helped convince Engineering that designs would work. The inputs we most resented were from Product Planning, which always seemed to hold back innovative concepts. In time, product planning became very powerful, which is why many of today's cars look so similar. Evidently product planners convinced the companies that the public preferred "happy mouth" grilles, and almost all makes for the last fifteen years have variations of the same grille shape. Gone is grille identity.
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-14 7:45 PM (#213853 - in reply to #213296)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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roadkillontheweb - 2010-03-10 11:30 PM

I am sure this is a long shot but do you think you could identify these two guys making the clay mock up for the 1958 Plymouth Fury JR?


I remember both modelers, and I'm waiting for my long-term memory to come up with the names. The fellow with the glasses is, I'm pretty sure, Paul.

I'll let you know when I have the names.

John
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-03-14 7:48 PM (#213854 - in reply to #213849)
Subject: Re: Valiant design



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john samsen - 2010-03-15 4:18 PM

I did resent the mandate for air bags- I thought a better and cheaper safety idea was to have sharp blades in the panel and overhead that would intimidate drivers and make them careful!



************************************

Hehehehe! ..... my kind of thinking !
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1960DesotoAdventurer
Posted 2010-03-14 7:51 PM (#213855 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Doctor Desoto wrote "But for me, all cars made after 1958 were, by degrees, less and less interesting"

Whats your opinion of the 1959 Buick? In my opinion thats the most beautiful GM car ever made and it came late in the game.

I agree with what you say about cars after the fins were removed,and I understand about that Chrysler was trying to compete with the Lark,comet,rambler,corvair,etc,but still personally dont see how a company that came up with the "Suddenly its 1960!" cars couldnt think up something sleeker (and more finned) than the Valiant.
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1960DesotoAdventurer
Posted 2010-03-14 7:55 PM (#213858 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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"Big Jim Zeder, VP of Engineering, sent down a directive to have all rear bumpers extend x-many inches behind and along side all sheet metal. Mrs. Zeder backed their Imperial out a long driveway that curved because of a tree. She continually managed to hit the tree with the rear bumper, and did some damage to the rear quarter."

Would'nt it have been easier and cheaper to either A.send Mrs.Zeder to driving school or B.Move the tree?
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-03-14 7:59 PM (#213859 - in reply to #213849)
Subject: Re: Valiant design



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john samsen - 2010-03-15 4:18 PM

I also liked the Corvair Monza converts, probably because they were small and innovative.

.


**************************

Better be careful what I ask for here (might awaken the Corvair demons! ), but when did the Monza first come out ?
Was it built on the early (toady) body, or only the later, sleeker bodies ?

I have had the fate ? misfortune ? of driving a few of these over the years. Several of my friends thought they were the bee's knees
and put up with their looks and mechanical problems. One was turbo/supercharged and went pretty good. They handled well enough,
although the whole Ralph Nader/oversteer problem was always in the back of my head when I pushed it. While the later ones looked
vastly better than the early ones, they never achieved a level that interested me. When there is a 57 New Yorker to be worked on,
driven, looked at, ... who gives a rip about a stupid Corvair ?

I did find the rather rare Corvair wagon to be such an oddity it ranked on my "cool" list.
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ripperace
Posted 2010-03-15 5:34 AM (#213920 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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This is a very interesting thread. I love getting to read and see stories and pics from the past involving cars. Especially these cars. Thanks to John for sharing with us and giving insight into the design department.

Ripper
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57burb
Posted 2010-03-15 10:01 AM (#213931 - in reply to #213920)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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I have a Car Life magazine (or similar) from 1960 that features an artist's concept of the Valiant-based DeSotos of the future. It was actually a sharp looking little car. Possibly even drawn by Mr Samsen considering the timeframe and his involvement at Chrysler. I'll have to dig it out tonight and scan it.
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StillOutThere
Posted 2010-03-15 10:31 AM (#213933 - in reply to #213849)
Subject: Re: Valiant design



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john samsen - 2010-03-14 6:18 PM  SNIP  I also liked the Corvair Monza converts, probably because they were small and innovative. SNIP QUOTE]

Not sure if you were talking early or late or both 'Vair body styles with that comment John, but I'll illustrate it with one I fixed up for my wife to drive.  It was a very pretty car howevere in its individual case, was the 110HP with Powerglide and desperately needed another gear.   It was a fantastic handling car with the minor upgrade of Plus One wheels and tires and an improved rear anti-sway bar and new gas shocks. 





(Chris's65CorvairMonza.jpg)



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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-03-15 11:00 AM (#213937 - in reply to #213933)
Subject: Re: Valiant design



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This later version isn't half bad looking, ... but then again, we were talking intro-era Valiant comparisons.
The early ones look a lot like some East German thing I've seen .... a Tatra ???

I can really see how the original Camero might have grown out of this design .... a lot of similar queues.

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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-15 11:24 AM (#213938 - in reply to #213931)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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57burb - 2010-03-15 10:01 AM

I have a Car Life magazine (or similar) from 1960 that features an artist's concept of the Valiant-based DeSotos of the future. It was actually a sharp looking little car. Possibly even drawn by Mr Samsen considering the timeframe and his involvement at Chrysler. I'll have to dig it out tonight and scan it.


Did you mean this?

One day my manager askedme if I wanted to do a concept for the cover of Car Life. It had to be unlike anything we were doing for Desoto. I knocked it out on a Saturday, and received a nice check from Carlife. No, it wasn't the 1958 Desoto!



(Carlife-8x72.jpg)



(CAR-LIFEmag 4X100.jpg)



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57burb
Posted 2010-03-15 12:02 PM (#213941 - in reply to #213938)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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John-

That isn't the same picture I'm thinking of, but that is awesome!

The one on my mind actually looks like a Valiant/Lancer, except with some DeSoto details. Obviously DeS was quite dead before this little guy had a chance to appear.
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59 explorer
Posted 2010-03-15 12:39 PM (#213943 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up


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I have often wondered about that rendering

If I remember correctly, the sketch on the cover was it. There was nothng in the magazine actually written about the car whatsoever.

Even without a rear view, don't the lines of the car have a marked 1959 Buick look to them?

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StillOutThere
Posted 2010-03-15 7:05 PM (#213996 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Think you will ALL enjoy the timely receipt of a couple of pictures a family friend sent to me that I just scanned.    He found them in an old box, remembers taking them but couldn't identify year or location or the show.   I helped him with the car at least!    It is of course the original Chrysler Dart concept car which we now know was a 1956 Chrysler 300 equivalent chassis though the car bore VIN 9999796  putting it in the engineering specials VIN number range.   Since the car was on the show circuit a brief period of time before being sent back to Ghia for alterations to become the Diablo roadster with cut down fins, we should all relish these photos of the car in its original state with soaring tail fins.   Oh to locate the missing engineering book that has the rest of the 9999 cars details.  

Comments John Samsen?





(scan0004.jpg)



(scan0003.jpg)



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Rob
Posted 2010-03-15 7:50 PM (#214001 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up


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I'll be at Carlisle.

Let me know when and where your presentation will be and I'll make an effort to be there. I have to put parts and the car corral ahead of everything else, as Carlisle is the only place where I can find parts.

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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2010-03-15 7:56 PM (#214005 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up


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Love that Ghia designed front end. The fins are out of this world, Has some Chrysler Thunderbolt shape at the side Tumble home line. Neat how the looped bumper transitions to the thick longitudinal side chrome.

The Chromed looped bumper later re-appeared on the 70 Charger front design 10 years later.

Wish it was still around to look at!
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-15 8:12 PM (#214013 - in reply to #213996)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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More pictures of the Dart... The hardtop was originally retractible.

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-15 8:20 PM




(Dart coupe 8x72.jpg)



(Dart convert 8x72.jpg)



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59finnedwarrior
Posted 2010-03-15 8:41 PM (#214024 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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hi John-I have to jump in line with all the fin guys and extend to you a warm welcome.

This is a lot like having a Super Bowl winning coach on a team forum-you can't get a better source than somebody who was there during that incredible period in Chrysler Corp. history.

Despite the fact that my fin cars are all Dodge and Plymouth models from 56-59 I have to agree with your assessment of the 57 Desoto.

That was truly a high water hall of fame mark for the design and I'm glad that you're on the same page-that almost makes me look smarter...

Thanks again for your incredible insight into the best era of automotive style.
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57burb
Posted 2010-03-15 8:45 PM (#214025 - in reply to #214005)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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1959 Belvedere Conv - 2010-03-15 6:56 PM

Wish it was still around to look at!


The car still exists today as the Chrysler Diablo show car of 1957.

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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-15 8:49 PM (#214026 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: "Dream Cars" video



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You can see a 10-minute trailer of my DVD "We Dreamed the Dream Cars" on YouTube...Click on 480 dpi for better resolution
The DVD is now on sale for $19.95 instead of $25.00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMBRuI7BvME&feature=channel



Edited by john samsen 2010-03-16 12:47 PM




(DVD cover 10x72.jpg)



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57burb
Posted 2010-03-15 9:21 PM (#214038 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Here are the scans of the article about the 'upcoming' compact DeSoto, taken from the June 1960 Motor Trend.

I've broken it out into four images, but they are all from a single page.

I can't help but shake my head at the name of the DeSoto car...



(smalldodge1.jpg)



(smalldodge2.jpg)



(smalldesoto1.jpg)



(smalldesoto2.jpg)



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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-15 11:08 PM (#214063 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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This concept is news to me! I worked in the Valiant/Lancer studio in 1959-1960 as assistant manager, when it became Valiant/Dart studio. Never saw this concept.
I suspect some writer was overworking his imagination. I don't think the fins would work on the retro-style of the Valiant!

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-15 11:10 PM
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-03-16 12:04 AM (#214080 - in reply to #214024)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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59finnedwarrior - 2010-03-16 5:41 PM

hi John-I have to jump in line with all the fin guys and extend to you a warm welcome.

This is a lot like having a Super Bowl winning coach on a team forum-you can't get a better source than somebody who was there during that incredible period in Chrysler Corp. history.

Despite the fact that my fin cars are all Dodge and Plymouth models from 56-59 I have to agree with your assessment of the 57 Desoto.

That was truly a high water hall of fame mark for the design and I'm glad that you're on the same page-that almost makes me look smarter...

Thanks again for your incredible insight into the best era of automotive style.


******************************************

Perfectly said. I too think the 57 DeSoto ranks "top shelf" of all FL designs. I ultimately went for a 58
for the finer hood/fender trim, broken ovals in the grille and exhaust ports, and the wedge engine. Still,
that 57 sidetrim still yanks at me pretty hard !

John, what can you tell us about how the side trim and other trim differences between 57 and 58 were
developed, and your personal thoughts on them ? Were interior fabrics developed in the design studio ?

B.
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Billy-Jack Ebare
Posted 2010-03-16 12:51 AM (#214089 - in reply to #213516)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Just wanted to thank you, Mr. Samsen for your kind words about my car and overall insight into the 1960 Desoto design evolution. It makes me proud to know that you have graced our group with your knowledge, and to be in your company Sir is certainly an honor. Thank you. I have a few last questions to ask. What is your color of choice on a Forward Look Chrysler Corporation Car? What was your overall opinion of the "electro-luminiscent" dash that was installed in the 1960-62 Chrysler cars? Rumor has it that Virgil Exner put his neck on the line for these, is there any truth to that? Lastly, what did you hear (if anything at all) about Chrysler's early interest/design of the electronic fuel injection system (1958)? I know a few of these made their way into the Desoto line.
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1960DesotoAdventurer
Posted 2010-03-16 1:43 AM (#214097 - in reply to #213996)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Thanks for posting those fantastic Dart concept car photos!
Of all the concepts thats my favorite,such a sleek windswept design,I love how the roof retracts into the rear,and those fins!

Edited by 1960DesotoAdventurer 2010-03-16 1:44 AM
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roadkillontheweb
Posted 2010-03-16 7:30 AM (#214117 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Remember, they did make a small car Desoto.
Just not here in the states. South Africa got the dart based Diplomat for 62-63
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-16 8:08 AM (#214121 - in reply to #214089)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Billy-Jack Ebare - 2010-03-16 12:51 AM

Just wanted to thank you, Mr. Samsen for your kind words about my car and overall insight into the 1960 Desoto design evolution. It makes me proud to know that you have graced our group with your knowledge, and to be in your company Sir is certainly an honor. Thank you. I have a few last questions to ask. What is your color of choice on a Forward Look Chrysler Corporation Car? What was your overall opinion of the "electro-luminiscent" dash that was installed in the 1960-62 Chrysler cars? Rumor has it that Virgil Exner put his neck on the line for these, is there any truth to that? Lastly, what did you hear (if anything at all) about Chrysler's early interest/design of the electronic fuel injection system (1958)? I know a few of these made their way into the Desoto line.


I enjoyed choosing different colors on my cars, and its hard to say what my favorite is. I probably have had more black ones, but some cars do not look as good in black as others- to me. It has to do with the kind of shapes, reflections, etc. I also like silver, gun-metal, white, and red. I think that '60 Desoto looks great in red, and black is perfect fot C-300's. I remember a red '60 Valiant that looked good. Also looked good in black. White didn't do much for that car. A lot of people didn't like the small 1962 Plymouth, but I had a black convert with red interior, and thought it looked sharp. I do not like yellow on cars, or the fruity colors on the E-body cars of 1970.

We in styling didn't know all the mechanical things engineering was developing unless they affected the body shapes. I designed an experimental car for engineering at Ford in 1954 that tested fuel injection. We had hoped to get it on the first T-Birds, so I put a low hood on that car. Injection wasn't ready then, so I had to but the big blister on over the air cleaner. I tried to get them to make a hole in the hood and let the carb stick through with a fancy air cleaner, but everyone thought that was a dumb idea. The "shaker hood" had to wait for about a decade.

I liked the Electro-luminescent instruments, and didn't hear anything about Ex in regard to that idea.
I showed a shaker hood on this concept for the Ford experimental car; it was not necessary when fuel injection was used.





(D523 6x72.jpg)



(12 D-523.jpg)



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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-16 8:24 AM (#214126 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Wild fins...



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How do you guys like the Alfa Bats? One day I drove to Bill Mitchell's (GM styling) house, and he had one of these Bats in his drive. Must be nice!
Wonder where the '63 Corvette Stingray got its divided backlite? These came out in 1953-1955, before the FL 1957's were designed.

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-16 8:35 AM




(alfa_bats 8x72.jpg)



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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-16 9:01 AM (#214130 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Evolution of Forward Look?



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This clay model photo is marked 1951. It may be the beginning of Exner's approach to fins. It was a modification of his "Thomas Specials", of which 16 were built in Italy. Virgil Exner Jr. says he suggested the more squarish fender forms while his dad was designing the "Special".

I never saw Exner's proposals for the '57 lineup, but I think the lower photo may have renderings in the background that were his proposals for '57 cars. I was told his proposals were similar to his Ghia concept cars. He may have been combining fins with the more sculptural shapes of his Ghia cars. I think the studios' designs, while maybe not as good from an artistic standpoint, were more exciting, and probably more what the public wanted.

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-16 9:32 AM




(Ex CLAYMODEL_1951 8x72.JPG)



('52 CHRYSLER SPECIAL 8x72.JPG)



(Ex, with clay 8x72 .jpg)



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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-16 9:15 AM (#214131 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: FW evolution



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Here is a 1954 rendering by Don Kopka. It shows the kind of design the Desoto studio was doing at the beginning of the 1957 Desoto program.



(Kopka desoto 54 8x72.jpg)



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StillOutThere
Posted 2010-03-16 12:24 PM (#214160 - in reply to #214121)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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john samsen - 2010-03-16 7:08 AM  SNIP  A lot of people didn't like the small 1962 Plymouth, but I had a black convert with red interior, and thought it looked sharp. SNIP

For reference, a car I owned about 15 years ago in California, a '62 Fury convertible that was factory black with a red interior.   (Wheels are not original)





(62PlymFuryCvA.jpg)



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Boris56
Posted 2010-03-16 2:56 PM (#214171 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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I've always seen similarities between the proportions and general shapes of the '62 Plymouth and the '65 Ford Mustang.
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roadkillontheweb
Posted 2010-03-16 6:15 PM (#214203 - in reply to #214131)
Subject: Re: FW evolution



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john samsen - 2010-03-16 8:15 AM

Here is a 1954 rendering by Don Kopka. It shows the kind of design the Desoto studio was doing at the beginning of the 1957 Desoto program.


Does that say Starflite on the rear quarter panel? Or do I need to clean my glasses?
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-16 6:47 PM (#214208 - in reply to #214203)
Subject: Re: FW evolution



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roadkillontheweb - 2010-03-16 6:15 PM

john samsen - 2010-03-16 8:15 AM

Here is a 1954 rendering by Don Kopka. It shows the kind of design the Desoto studio was doing at the beginning of the 1957 Desoto program.


Does that say Starflite on the rear quarter panel? Or do I need to clean my glasses?


Yes, it says "Starflite". The licence plate says "OK-1957". So it was a concept for the '57 Desoto. Don was one of my friends in the Desoto studio. He must have done this rendering around the time I did the one that is my avatar.

How about that speedo form going thru the windshield! The cost guys would never allow that.

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-16 6:53 PM
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-16 6:56 PM (#214210 - in reply to #214001)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Rob - 2010-03-15 7:50 PM

I'll be at Carlisle.

Let me know when and where your presentation will be and I'll make an effort to be there. I have to put parts and the car corral ahead of everything else, as Carlisle is the only place where I can find parts.



I'll be doing a seminar on Friday and on Saturday. I don't know yet which building and at what times. It should be printed in the program.




(JRS Turbine.jpg)



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wizard
Posted 2010-03-17 4:06 AM (#214307 - in reply to #214208)
Subject: Re: FW evolution



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john samsen - 2010-03-17 12:47 AM

roadkillontheweb - 2010-03-16 6:15 PM

john samsen - 2010-03-16 8:15 AM

Here is a 1954 rendering by Don Kopka. It shows the kind of design the Desoto studio was doing at the beginning of the 1957 Desoto program.


Does that say Starflite on the rear quarter panel? Or do I need to clean my glasses?


Yes, it says "Starflite". The licence plate says "OK-1957". So it was a concept for the '57 Desoto. Don was one of my friends in the Desoto studio. He must have done this rendering around the time I did the one that is my avatar.

How about that speedo form going thru the windshield! The cost guys would never allow that.


The Speedometer form is really a fantastic design idea John! I can imagine that the cost of realizing it would have been steep, but ohh sooo kool.

Edited by wizard 2010-03-17 4:07 AM
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ExWagonista
Posted 2010-03-17 8:35 AM (#214313 - in reply to #214121)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up


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Boy I have been taking this thread in by the spoonful thank you for joining and sharing your time and stories. As a kid growing up in the 60s all I wanted to do was design cars at Chrysler. Seeing for the first time some of the unseen designs of the Exner era is a huge treat. Your avatar 55 Desoto design in stunning..if only. Anyway time to put it up on the front porch for all of us to enjoy!

 

If Only!



Edited by ExWagonista 2010-03-17 8:37 AM
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-03-17 10:54 AM (#214328 - in reply to #214313)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Having had to work over the fenders and radiator support on FL cars for many, many years, I only wish engineering was
up to speed on making the cars sit as low as this rendering suggests ! The 60's were a lot easier to work over than the 57-
58 cars, and anyone familiar with the 55-56's knows the everpresent back-of-head gouge, er, I mean hood latch location !!!

I always loved the rear wheel opening shape employed on the smaller 60-61 cars, and I can see from this work up where
they came from. Never thought of it at the front, but it looks good ! I guess Plymouth did something similar, but more as a
body contour that an open well. With the lowered fender line, this really looks sleek. Nice work !
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firedome
Posted 2010-03-17 8:40 PM (#214431 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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These insights and reflections on the life and times of our favorite cars have been a true revelation, Mr Samsen. Many thanks for sharing this important history and for your own work.
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57burb
Posted 2010-03-17 8:56 PM (#214435 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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This scan is a little on the large side, so I'm leaving it as a link. But I thought it gives nice insight (and praise) to the then-current '57 DeSoto design that we're all so enamored with, then and now.

This scan is from the March 1957 Motor Trend.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a274/46Tbird/57des-1.jpg
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B/G 61
Posted 2010-03-17 9:57 PM (#214447 - in reply to #214130)
Subject: Re: Evolution of Forward Look?



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john samsen - 2010-03-16 9:01 AM

This clay model photo is marked 1951. It may be the beginning of Exner's approach to fins. It was a modification of his "Thomas Specials", of which 16 were built in Italy. Virgil Exner Jr. says he suggested the more squarish fender forms while his dad was designing the "Special".



That car looks like it inspired someone at Chrysler in the 90's . . . The Atlantic looks like its twin . . .












(Ex_CLAYMODEL_1951_8x72.JPG)



(atlantic.jpg)



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ExWagonista
Posted 2010-03-18 2:37 PM (#214533 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up


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Okay..I have to follow up to my previous post. I would love to know Mr Samsen if you did additional sketches of the 55 Desoto concept. I would really enjoy understanding the front/rear design concept for the car. Thanks!!
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-18 5:07 PM (#214541 - in reply to #214533)
Subject: Re: '55 Desoto concept



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None of my sketches for this concept rendering have survived. This concept was not modeled.
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-18 5:11 PM (#214542 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Chrysler Atlantic



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I really like the Atlantic concept. Saw it at Carlisle the summer before last. Now that's a great retro rendition and beautifully sculpted. I wouldn't kick it out of my garage!
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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2010-03-19 12:43 PM (#214682 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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John, what is your vision/opinion on the switch to dual headlights in '57?
I can imagine this was a 'modern' thing back then and designers would be thrilled to change the face of a car with a different headlight-configuration.
Personally, on the '57 Chryslers, I tend to like the single headlight-model much more than the duals. Perhaps it's the shape of the rounded fenders orsomething, I'm not sure.

Can you explain why the cars were always pictured with a 'lower' stance in the brochures then they were in real life?
I would think this would made them look sleeker ofcourse, but was it really only that reason?

Open rearfenders;
You mentioned you would've liked to see more open fenders on the cars and some more of their wheels.
Personally (in hindsight ofcourse) I'm glad this hasn't been done really. Although I like the models, I don't like the open rearfenders on '54-57 Buicks for instance. It just shouts out "Hey have you seen my wheels?" to much IMO, and takes away the focus on the model of the car itself.


With the years of design-experience you have, I wonder how you would (re)design or render a '57-60 Chrysler product, today, as if it weren't brought out yet.
Suppose it's 1954/55 again and Chrysler would ask you to design the '57 models... Would you do anything different in your current design than that you did 55 years ago?

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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-19 5:34 PM (#214742 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Big Block...

The quad headlamps used five inch lamps vs the seven inchers on the single lamps. This gave the designers the ability to put them in lower fenders, or lower grilles. The keywords of the day were "longer, lower, wider" and we had to stretch the front and rear ends as wide as possible, and make the cars look as low as possible. The illustrations in the brochures were stretched longer and made to look lower and wider.

Wheels have always been important parts of cars, and to hide them, as Nash did to the extreme, implies that the wheels are unimportant.

When I was designing during the 1950's, I wanted cars to be more aerodynamic. The companies couldn't care less, and wanted hoods over the headlamps, visors over the windshields, and huge grilles, all of which added much drag. If I had my way then, and now, I would make them more aerodynamic. They could still have fins.

Since you opened the door by asking about how I would design the 57 Desoto, here is a non-forward look experimental car (D-523 Cougar) I designed in 1954, just before coming to Chrysler. I wanted small fins on it, but my boss, Gil Spear, had me do the tail lamps his way. I had the front fenders sleeker, but VP engineering Mac Pherson (of the famous struts) made me take off a foot of front overhang. His personal taste.

Yes, I hid part of the wheels! I was going along with the trends of the day. If you could imagine this car with larger wheel openings, more front overhang, and big '57 Desoto-like fins, that's what I would have wanted.

When I did the big backlite on the 1964 Barracuda, I was thinking about this car.

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-19 5:48 PM




(D-523 front 3-4 8x72.jpg)



(D-523 rear 3-4 8x72.jpg)



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Attachments D-523 front 3-4 8x72.jpg (39KB - 415 downloads)
Attachments D-523 rear 3-4 8x72.jpg (34KB - 418 downloads)
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Centurion
Posted 2010-03-19 6:48 PM (#214751 - in reply to #213920)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up


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What a fantastic topic this is!

One of the earlier posters mentioned the 1959 Buick. When I saw the drawing of the rear bumper design proposal for the 1960 DeSoto, I was reminded instantly of its similarity to this April, 1957 rear bumper proposal (full-size fiberglass model) for the 1959 Buick. It's fascinating how some similar themes were being considered by multiple designers during this time period.

1959 Buick fiberglass, April, 1957

 





(57-60 DS rear green 5X72.jpg)



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Attachments 57-60 DS rear green 5X72.jpg (26KB - 586 downloads)
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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-19 8:14 PM (#214770 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

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John, do you know how many times the dart was repainted; at least twice, huh?

The Falcon was painted in three colors, which had led people to think that perhaps more than one example had been built.

The Adventurer 1 is my favorite dream car. It was painted at least twice and maybe three times.

Ex reportedly drove it for a while, personally.

I heard a rumor that it ended up in South America, but Jr. has reportedly said that it was crushed.

Can't understand why it would have been singled out for destruction; just doesn't make sense.

Did you hear/know that the XNR was long ago sent to the Middle East and that it ended up in Kuwait, but that it was last seen
being driven toward Baghdad at the end of a certain 1991 war (and, that it might not have survived that last road trip?).
To my knowledge, its present whereabouts remain unknown.

I've got a presentation transcript at home, from a speech that Ex made to the SAE, around 1953 (it's at home) but, in it, he
comparatively examined English, French, German and Italian automobile styling, and he greatly
appreciated the Italian School of design.

Not a WORD is mentioned therein about any affinity that he may have had, regarding the concept of tail fins or jet-plane styling,
as it might apply to automobile designs.












Edited by d500neil 2010-03-19 8:24 PM
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-20 8:20 AM (#214823 - in reply to #214770)
Subject: Re: Exner's dream cars



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Many of the Exner dream cars were reportedly crushed, but actually were sent to big shots outside the USA. The company did not want to pay the taxes if the cars were to be licenced in the USA.

The Falcon was painted silver, coppertone, and black.

The Adventurer was originally cream, but Ex painted it silver, and drove it.

The "Gilda", an aerodynamic experimental car designed by Italian designer Savonuzzi. The Gilda was a 2-seat, with a humongous rear deck! Really "cornball" in my opinion. The Dart was a cooperative venture between Exner and Savonuzzi which was found to be very aerodynamic. Savonuzzi later came to Chrysler, where he worked on engineering design.

This picture is Ex driving the Falcon at an SCCA meet. Not a bad job when you get to design cars as you like them, then get to drive them!

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-20 9:02 AM




(Falcon racing 6x72.jpg)



(xgilda 8x72.jpg)



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Attachments Falcon racing 6x72.jpg (30KB - 526 downloads)
Attachments xgilda 8x72.jpg (73KB - 423 downloads)
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-20 9:04 AM (#214827 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Dart evolution



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The Dart went back to Ghia, where a conventional convertible top was installed, and the fins cut down. It was then called "Diablo". Note the stylized pitchfork on the inside door panel. What the devil gave them the idea for this name?

The government's rules limited what we could design for passenger cars. The headlamps on the Dart and Diablo were below the required height above ground, and if this design were changed to meet the rues, the front end would not have looked nearly this good. Another reason why many concept cars could not be licenced for the road in the USA, so they had to be crushed, or sneaked out of the country.

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-20 9:20 AM




(1958-chrysler-diablo 7x72.jpg)



(1958 diablo int 8x72.jpg)



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Attachments 1958-chrysler-diablo 7x72.jpg (31KB - 477 downloads)
Attachments 1958 diablo int 8x72.jpg (70KB - 472 downloads)
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55CRL
Posted 2010-03-20 12:50 PM (#214881 - in reply to #214742)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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john samsen - 2010-03-19 11:34 PM

Since you opened the door by asking about how I would design the 57 Desoto, here is a non-forward look experimental car (D-523 Cougar) I designed in 1954, just before coming to Chrysler. I wanted small fins on it, but my boss, Gil Spear, had me do the tail lamps his way. I had the front fenders sleeker, but VP engineering Mac Pherson (of the famous struts) made me take off a foot of front overhang. His personal taste.

Yes, I hid part of the wheels! I was going along with the trends of the day. If you could imagine this car with larger wheel openings, more front overhang, and big '57 Desoto-like fins, that's what I would have wanted.

When I did the big backlite on the 1964 Barracuda, I was thinking about this car.


John, it seems your taillight design on the D-523 Cougar ended up on the 1962 Merc Monterey.

Writing about the Barracuda, I really like what you did putting the backlite on the Valiant Signet creating an amazing new car with a lot of nice features. As an owner of the original car I'm interested to know if you where involved in the design of the 63-64 Valiants as well. Who came up with the front fender design with the hairpin crest, it looks like half of the Forward Look sign and was used on the'61 Plymouth front end. On your sketch of the Barracuda it seems completely gone.



(1962 Monterey.jpg)



(64Valiant.jpg)



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Attachments 1962 Monterey.jpg (110KB - 610 downloads)
Attachments 64Valiant.jpg (63KB - 615 downloads)
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roadkillontheweb
Posted 2010-03-20 1:22 PM (#214888 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Expert

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Hey John
would you mind if we take this thread on a little side track?

I am a collector of Mopar vintage jewelry that was used by dealerships and by the factory. I would be interested to see if you have any unique pieces hiding in your jewelry box?

Here are some of my more unique pieces with inset colored stones more than likely made for women in a male dominated enviroment.

I also have a very good variety of Forward look items even including one from the Redstone missle program.

Here is the jewelry page of my website that is in desperate need of an update with better photos.
http://www.roadkillontheweb.com/jewelry.html
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-20 1:52 PM (#214892 - in reply to #214881)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



"The Original Source"

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55CRL - 2010-03-20 12:50 PM


When I did the big backlite on the 1964 Barracuda, I was thinking about this car.


John, it seems your taillight design on the D-523 Cougar ended up on the 1962 Merc Monterey.

Writing about the Barracuda, I really like what you did putting the backlite on the Valiant Signet creating an amazing new car with a lot of nice features. As an owner of the original car I'm interested to know if you where involved in the design of the 63-64 Valiants as well. Who came up with the front fender design with the hairpin crest, it looks like half of the Forward Look sign and was used on the'61 Plymouth front end. On your sketch of the Barracuda it seems completely gone.

First, The Cougar lail lamp was a Gil Spear design- he asked me to put it on the Cougar.

I think it was 1961 when I was placed inthe Valiant/Dart studio. The new 1963 Valiant body had been designed, and I do not know how what we called the "hairpin" was designed. For the 1964 model, we got new front fenders, and the "hairpin" was modified- I think by Dave Cummins. I didn't do much design on the Valiants- a couple tail lamps and chrome side moldings on the '64's. I designed the grille for the 1964 Dart, and the rear quarters for the Dart Hardtop. On the '64 Barracuda, I did the roof, backlite, rear deck. Irv Ritchie had the original idea for doing the fastback on the Valiant. I had a silver Formula S. The formula S package was thought up by someone in Plymouth Sales. Good idea!
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-20 2:00 PM (#214894 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



"The Original Source"

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Roadkill,

I like your collection! I have a collection of Mopar ornamentation and jewelery. and am thinking of how I can sell it all. Maybe on the Allpar site. I have some original hand made prototypes of the Barracuda fish, gold and black "round eagle"s from the '61 Imperial, etc. I do have a pair of gold plated forward look ear rings, probably like yours, which I received at a dealer presentation, and I've been wearing a Valiant lapel pin which has the triangular Valiant logo on top of a vertical "rocket" shape. I also have Road runner ear rings and Pentastar lapel pins. Unused production ornamentation like '61 Imperial nameplates, LeBaron plate, Sport Fury (don't know what year) nameplates. etc. I have no idea what this stuff would be worth.

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-20 2:04 PM
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-03-20 4:29 PM (#214922 - in reply to #214894)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Some of this old "side track" stuff is really cool. I wear a tie pin when the situation demands a tie that reads "Ask the man who owns one".
Not many would know what that means today.
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roadkillontheweb
Posted 2010-03-20 7:07 PM (#214944 - in reply to #214894)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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john samsen - 2010-03-20 1:00 PM

Roadkill,

I like your collection! I have a collection of Mopar ornamentation and jewelery. and am thinking of how I can sell it all. Maybe on the Allpar site. I have some original hand made prototypes of the Barracuda fish, gold and black "round eagle"s from the '61 Imperial, etc. I do have a pair of gold plated forward look ear rings, probably like yours, which I received at a dealer presentation, and I've been wearing a Valiant lapel pin which has the triangular Valiant logo on top of a vertical "rocket" shape. I also have Road runner ear rings and Pentastar lapel pins. Unused production ornamentation like '61 Imperial nameplates, LeBaron plate, Sport Fury (don't know what year) nameplates. etc. I have no idea what this stuff would be worth.


The only real way to get true market value would be to put the stuff on Ebay and let the high bidder take it home.
I am sure the group around here can help identify the unknown production ornamentation but as for the prototype stuff the sky could be the limit to the right collector. If you do not have a Ebay account We might be able to work out a sales on commission deal

My earrings are clip on and your should be also. They made a lot of different forward look items, I also have a number of driveaway items from 1959 the most unique being the paper apron from the BBQ. Did you attend the 1959 Desoto Drive away?
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SalesGuy
Posted 2010-03-22 2:12 AM (#215180 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Veteran

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The '61 Imperial stuff is worth nothing.

I'll take it off your hands for free.

( By the way, thanks everyone for this thread, it's goooold ).
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59 Togamaster
Posted 2010-03-22 7:24 AM (#215194 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Regular

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John, What about the Norsmen? That went down with the Andria Doria? The car with no A pillar? Did you work on that one or was it a Ghia design?
Thanks.
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wizard
Posted 2010-03-22 8:00 AM (#215197 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

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This is like crossfire John, but I have a question; Do you know anything about who the designers where that worked on the Chrysler 1960 model? Since I own a '60 Saratoga, I'm interested to know more about the 60 Chrysler.



(Resize of 03_05_2008_Karlshamn_square.jpg)



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Attachments Resize of 03_05_2008_Karlshamn_square.jpg (95KB - 346 downloads)
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-22 8:19 AM (#215198 - in reply to #215194)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



"The Original Source"

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59 Togamaster - 2010-03-22 7:24 AM

John, What about the Norsmen? That went down with the Andria Doria? The car with no A pillar? Did you work on that one or was it a Ghia design?
Thanks.


The Norseman was an experimental car designed by Exner's team, and built by Ghia. I did not have anything to do with it.

Improving driver vision was a big goal in the 1950's, which resulted in wrap-around windshields, and attempts to eliminate A-pillars. At Ford, in 1954, I designed the interior (the only interior I ever designed) of the experimental car D-524, later called the "Beldone". It had a cantilever roof and no A-pillar. This car still exists.





(1956 NORSEMAN 8x72.jpg)



(Beldone side 8x72.jpg)



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Attachments 1956 NORSEMAN 8x72.jpg (123KB - 340 downloads)
Attachments Beldone side 8x72.jpg (65KB - 356 downloads)
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-22 8:46 AM (#215199 - in reply to #215197)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



"The Original Source"

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Location: Hilton Head SC
wizard - 2010-03-22 8:00 AM

This is like crossfire John, but I have a question; Do you know anything about who the designers where that worked on the Chrysler 1960 model? Since I own a '60 Saratoga, I'm interested to know more about the 60 Chrysler.


Dick Macadam was a designer in the Chrysler studio at the time the 1960 model was designed, and became VP of design after Engle left. Macadam has not been heard from in many years.
Chester Limbaugh joined the Chrysler studio in 1958, when the 1961 Chrysler was being face-lifted. Chet is still around, as far as I know, and may have info re. the 1960 models. Try googling for him. Also, Jeff Godshall is still around, and may be reached at (248) 576 2047. Jeff is the historian for Mopar design and has written articles in several automotive magazines.
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wizard
Posted 2010-03-22 9:47 AM (#215203 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

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Interesting John, thank you for the information!
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Chrycoman
Posted 2010-03-22 6:20 PM (#215274 - in reply to #215194)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Expert

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59 Togamaster - 2010-03-22 4:24 AM

John, What about the Norsmen? That went down with the Andria Doria? The car with no A pillar? Did you work on that one or was it a Ghia design?
Thanks.


Stick my nose in here . . .

All Chrysler Corporation "Ghia" cars were designed by Chrysler and built by Ghia, except one, perhaps. Ghia produced a car in 1951 called the Plymouth XX-500 to show Chrysler what they could do. Chrysler liked what they saw, as far as quality and price were concerned, and the rest is history. Over the years I have read the styling was by Ghia and others say it was Chrysler. The 1960 Valiant took a few styling cues from the XX-500 - the grille and side window treatment in particular.

A number of writers these days claim the 1950's Chrysler show cars were designed by Ghia. That is called "revisionist history" - revising history to suite the ignorance / laziness of the writer.
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-22 7:39 PM (#215284 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



"The Original Source"

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Chrycoman,

First, I greet you in the beautiful Vancouver! We watched the Winter Olympics, and were impressed at how well it was run, and marvelled at the great facilities!

You are right- the XX500 was designed by Italian designers at Ghia.

Actually, I think the Valiant showcased several of Exner's pet motifs. The classic grille he used on many concept cars, the horizintal character line that becomes the rear quarter, (used on the VW Karmann Ghia, D'Elegance, etc.), the "toilet seat", etc. The horizontal "wing" running from the headlamps through the door was his new idea that he showed on the "FliteWing" concept car, which the 1962 "S series" cars followed.





Edited by john samsen 2010-03-22 7:54 PM




(1950_PLYMOUTH_XX-500 8x72.JPG)



(60 Valiant 7x72.jpg)



(1953 CHRYSLER D'ELEGANCE 8x72.JPG)



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Attachments 1950_PLYMOUTH_XX-500 8x72.JPG (58KB - 347 downloads)
Attachments 60 Valiant 7x72.jpg (54KB - 327 downloads)
Attachments 1953 CHRYSLER D'ELEGANCE 8x72.JPG (94KB - 389 downloads)
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-22 8:09 PM (#215290 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info,1962 Mopars



"The Original Source"

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Here are the only photos I know of, of the 1962 "S series" cars. Standard size cars were planned for 1962 Plymouth and Dodge models. Exner and his private studio designed the concept car "FliteWing". We had to follow this concept in designing the 1962 lines. The big cars were quite impressive, expecially the Plymouth. Ceo William Newberg created the big fiasco when he mistakenly thought the Chevrolet '62's were to be downsized, and ordered a crash program to design smaller '62 Plymouth's and Dodges.

The big '62 Plymouth is on the turntable in both views. I'm sure it would have been a winner! These pictures are in the book "Virgil Exner, Visioneer".

I think the top brass believed that Ex's "wings" made the cars look shorter, and so Elwood Engle (recommended by good old George Walker) came to Chrysler to make the cars look longer, etc., and more like Ford's.

We had to work around the clock on eight hour shifts to get the redesigning done. Below is my concept for a "FliteWing" Desoto. Note the flush glass and integrated roof-rear quarter. Before the GTO and Duster!

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-22 8:23 PM




(1959 DODGEFLITEWING 6x72.jpg)



(1962 S series cars A 8x72.jpg)



(1962 S series cars B 8x72.jpg)



(1959-1962 Desoto concept 8x72-Samsen.jpg)



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Attachments 1959 DODGEFLITEWING 6x72.jpg (20KB - 399 downloads)
Attachments 1962 S series cars A 8x72.jpg (45KB - 395 downloads)
Attachments 1962 S series cars B 8x72.jpg (47KB - 349 downloads)
Attachments 1959-1962 Desoto concept 8x72-Samsen.jpg (62KB - 414 downloads)
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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-22 8:28 PM (#215293 - in reply to #215290)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

Posts: 19171
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John, please tell us about how the factory went about destroying and discarding the full size mock ups
and their promotional artwork, etc. .

I realize that there must have been just a tremendous amount of surplus artwork which was eliminated.

Didn't any of the common folk ever get to liberate any of the original unique artifacts---beyond you designers,
I mean.

Weren't the Corp honchos interested in saving any 'souvenirs' ???

I know that one exec saved a D501 emblem as a paperweight, and that Lee Smith eventually
received it, from the guy, decades later.






Edited by d500neil 2010-03-22 8:31 PM
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StillOutThere
Posted 2010-03-22 8:46 PM (#215296 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Location: Under the X in Texas

I'm going to add several pics of the Flitewing.  Perhaps Mr. Samsen would care to comment on this but I see element throughout this car that could be said to have precipitated into the '63-64 Chrysler body, particularly as applied to the 300J and 300K.  Am I wrong?



Edited by StillOutThere 2010-03-22 8:50 PM




(795px-Dodge20FlightWing20Concept20Car20Full20Fron0BW.jpg)



(Dodge20FlightWing20Concept20Car20Top20Frt20Qtr20BW.jpg)



(Dodge_Flite_Wing_1961_30.jpg)



(flitewing2.jpg)



(flitewing4.jpg)



(flitewing5.jpg)



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Attachments 795px-Dodge20FlightWing20Concept20Car20Full20Fron0BW.jpg (62KB - 663 downloads)
Attachments Dodge20FlightWing20Concept20Car20Top20Frt20Qtr20BW.jpg (177KB - 492 downloads)
Attachments Dodge_Flite_Wing_1961_30.jpg (274KB - 318 downloads)
Attachments flitewing2.jpg (79KB - 331 downloads)
Attachments flitewing4.jpg (40KB - 349 downloads)
Attachments flitewing5.jpg (73KB - 341 downloads)
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-03-22 11:42 PM (#215332 - in reply to #215296)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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These cars, when compared to the FL designs, is like having someone slide your steak dinner
off the table and slide a sh!t sandwich back in its place. Yuck !!!
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SalesGuy
Posted 2010-03-23 1:46 AM (#215350 - in reply to #215199)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Veteran

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john samsen - 2010-03-22 10:46 PM
Also, Jeff Godshall is still around, and may be reached at (248) 576 2047. Jeff is the historian for Mopar design and has written articles in several automotive magazines.


Thanks for the tip, John. I'm writing a book about the Australian AT4 truck and how it came into being. It was a co-operative effort with International Harvester in the late 50s, but that's all I know. Do you think that Jeff would be able to shed any light on things ?
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-23 8:12 AM (#215370 - in reply to #215293)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



"The Original Source"

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d500neil - 2010-03-22 8:28 PM

John, please tell us about how the factory went about destroying and discarding the full size mock ups
and their promotional artwork, etc. .

I realize that there must have been just a tremendous amount of surplus artwork which was eliminated.


Full size clay models were recycled. They were wooden armatures, or 'Bucks" with several inches of clay covering the wood. The clay was carved off and went back into the clay ovens where it was softened. Concept cars were destroyed, shipped to other countries, or sometimes left to rust in some lot. A number of these have turned up, and been restored.

Few people thought these things would be worth much. We had no idea there would be fans of these cars collecting them decades later. In 1950, a friend of my father had a Deusenberg model J phaeton, perfectly restored. He said it was worth about $7000. I passed up buying a 1937 Cord supercharged convert in very good condition. A friend of mine picked up a 1913 Model T roadster in good running condition for $55, and sold it a couple years later for $175.

Since I was a kid, I collected many kinds of things, which is why I saved artifacts.

The art work in the studios was put in drawers after it was no longer shown, and periodically it was removed and shredded. There were tons of sketches and renderings destroyed. Sometimes an exec would ask for a particularly nice rendering to hang in his office.





(29 Cummings Dodge 7x72.jpg)



(Brownlee Imperial 50's 7x72.jpg)



(37 ANDERSON, LOST IN PARIS 7x72.JPG)



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Attachments 29 Cummings Dodge 7x72.jpg (35KB - 329 downloads)
Attachments Brownlee Imperial 50's 7x72.jpg (37KB - 341 downloads)
Attachments 37 ANDERSON, LOST IN PARIS 7x72.JPG (69KB - 343 downloads)
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-03-23 12:38 PM (#215395 - in reply to #215370)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Location: Parts Unknown
john samsen - 2010-03-24 5:12 AM

Concept cars were destroyed, shipped to other countries, or sometimes left to rust in some lot. A number of these have turned up, and been restored.

Few people thought these things would be worth much. We had no idea there would be fans of these cars collecting them decades later. In 1950, a friend of my father had a Deusenberg model J phaeton, perfectly restored. He said it was worth about $7000. I passed up buying a 1937 Cord supercharged convert in very good condition. A friend of mine picked up a 1913 Model T roadster in good running condition for $55, and sold it a couple years later for $175.



**********************************

I am old enough, and had the *proper* exposure to have witnessed the old attitude of antique collecting, where
"it wasn't an antique unless it was AT LEAST one hundred years old". Everything else was JUNK, or a minor "novelty".
Somewhere in the 60's and 70's this changed and a giant surge of interest for American pop culture arose and largely
supplanted the high falootin' types who now find their "true antiques" at Sotheby's and other similar venues. My
elders were constantly telling me to "get rid of that junk" and to quit dragging it home, and more than once dear old
Dad tossed a raging kinipshun fit (sic?) and hauled a trailer load of cool old rusty stuff to the dump with some stern
warnings to never do it again. I wasn't having any of that !

Call me "clairvoyant", but I had no trouble seeing that by degrees, after the late 50's, it was all down hill as far as
product "substance" and character was concerned. I think most of America picked up on this too, and this is where
the groundswell interest for "collectibles" like old bicycles and Barbi dolls came from. Today, going to an antique mall
can be an outright joke, with booth vendors selling "action figures" still in plastic wrap that were made in China 4 years
ago ! But this is how far this pop culture interest has evolved.

I never could understand my parents', grandparents', and many oldtimer neighbors' attitude of what was junk and what
was good - and still don't ! They were so set in the paradigm of "newest is best" and the lingering practicality of the
Depression that they simply could not get their heads around the idea of cherishing some aging chunk of utilitarianism as
anything special. People who did save old stuff were looked upon as eccentric and socially unacceptable by most folks.

The years have proven my way of thinking to be dead-on. I can still see the look on my father's face when a collector
paid my brother many hundreds of dollars for a box of telephone insulators. You might as well have tagged him with a
red-hot branding iron !

As it relates to these cars, while MY personal tastes say the fin era was the pinnacle of post-war styling, the newest-is-best
axiom held true for another ten years as far as mechanical engineering went and people went on scrapping those "ugly OLD
cars" for the newer and "better" ones until it became clear that the newer ones WEREN'T better and the saving of older cars
as a hobby really took off. This coincided exactly with the antique-world shift to pop culture icons in the late 60's and into the
70's and easily explains why so many 60's cars survived, as opposed to the cars from the 50's - particularly the more flam-
boyant ones like the fin cars.

John, you are a real treasure to have here. Thanks for all your input.
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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-23 3:24 PM (#215408 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Going back up to W.'s FliteWing illustrations, I don't think that I'd ever seen a rear aspect view of the car, before.

(Where) does that car still exist?




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Ex-finlover
Posted 2010-03-23 10:23 PM (#215481 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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With all this design talk - thought you folks would enjoy seeing a 1956 Chrysler interior proposal featuring swivel seats.
This was done by Don Butler - a self-taught designer who first landed a job with Hudson after WWII.
His previous work experience was on the family farm and 11 years cutting fabric in a trouser factory.




(C5199.jpg)



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StillOutThere
Posted 2010-03-23 10:58 PM (#215495 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Seats, console, center arm rests that is at first glance the 300F 4-bucket with console interior. First evidence of squared-off steering wheel too perhaps? Wow!
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wizard
Posted 2010-03-24 2:33 AM (#215511 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Also, we see the compound bubble window and a special leg/foot rest for the sviwel seats! A fantastic vision, but I guess that the gullwing doors where "cut off" by the economical reasons.
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Chrycoman
Posted 2010-03-24 3:02 AM (#215513 - in reply to #215495)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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John, I would also like to thank you for this fabulous "tour" of the styling studio. It's fascinating to see the designs that were being worked on and what was developed into production models, not to mention the show cars.

I have a copy of the top photo of the styling studio full of the 1962 models. The date on the photo is July 22, 1959, before the word came down to shrink the Plymouth and Dodge.

To identify the cars, in the top photo the coupe is a Plymouth as is the wagon on the left. Not sure what the car behind the wagon is, but the next two along the far side are Dodges. Interesting shape of the front wheel openings.

The second photo has the two Dodges on the left with the front end of an Imperial just poking out. The next one I think is a Chrysler, followed by DeSoto, the rear end of a Chrysler and another Imperial. You can just make out the 'sparrow-strainer' taillamps on top of the rear fenders of the Imperial. The DeSoto rear end was to be like the Chrysler but with three lamps per side, just as the 1956-59 models did.

I have some articles on the Plymouths and DeSotos of the early 1960's with photos of the 1962 Plymouth and DeSoto clay models. The DeSoto appears to be the one in the photo. It seems at this point (July, 1959) DeSoto still had a life after 1960. I will scan these photos and post them.
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-24 9:12 AM (#215525 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Chrycoman,

Your identification of the models is right on! I'm anxious to see the photos you have of the '62's.

The model on the turntable is the Super Sport. I think the big '62 Plymouth and Dodge look much better than the GM and Ford competition. A lot of money was spent on redoing the smaller '62's, and then doing a major facelift a year later, to make them look bigger. A lot of people thought the 62's looked like the '60 Valiants. Big or small, I think the '62 Mopars (or the following years) didn't have the "pizzaz" of the former "Forward Look" cars. However, Chevvy and Ford weren't style setters either!



(62 Plym SuperSport 8x72.jpg)



(1962Plymouth Fr 6x72.jpg)



(1962_Dodge 7x72.jpg)



(62chevy 7x72.jpg)



(62 ford 7x72.jpg)



(1963SportFury 6x72.jpg)



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Attachments 1962_Dodge 7x72.jpg (70KB - 315 downloads)
Attachments 62chevy 7x72.jpg (49KB - 313 downloads)
Attachments 62 ford 7x72.jpg (51KB - 344 downloads)
Attachments 1963SportFury 6x72.jpg (44KB - 323 downloads)
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-24 10:19 AM (#215531 - in reply to #215481)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Ex-finlover - 2010-03-23 10:23 PM

With all this design talk - thought you folks would enjoy seeing a 1956 Chrysler interior proposal featuring swivel seats.
This was done by Don Butler - a self-taught designer who first landed a job with Hudson after WWII.
His previous work experience was on the family farm and 11 years cutting fabric in a trouser factory.


I knew Don Butler- a good designer and great guy!

The Diablo also had a squared-off steering wheel...





(1958 diablo int 8x72.jpg)



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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-24 10:33 AM (#215533 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Ever think about commercial names, how strange some of them are? Americans didn't want a monarchy, but think of all the products that use such names-
Burger King, Dairy Queen, Imperial cars, Royal Lancers, Mercury Monarch, Crown Victoria, etc. By the way, Valiant came from Exner's favorite comic strip, "Prince Valiant".

Furies were nasty mythical beings- what a strange name for cars! Then what in the world is a "Sport Fury"? Like a Sport Demon, or Sport Vampire!

The Plymouth division execs intended to name our fastback Valiant the "Panda". When we designers hooted at them, they challenged us to come up with a better name. A name from my list was chosen- "Barracuda".

Today, they make up names that don't relate to anything- "Camry", "Prius", "Lexus", etc. Maybe that is better.
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Boris56
Posted 2010-03-24 10:41 AM (#215536 - in reply to #215533)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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john samsen - 2010-03-24 10:33 AM

Ever think about commercial names, how strange some of them are? Americans didn't want a monarchy, but think of all the products that use such names-
Burger King, Dairy Queen, Imperial cars, Royal Lancers, Mercury Monarch, Crown Victoria, etc. By the way, Valiant came from Exner's favorite comic strip, "Prince Valiant".

Furies were nasty mythical beings- what a strange name for cars! Then what in the world is a "Sport Fury"? Like a Sport Demon, or Sport Vampire!

The Plymouth division execs intended to name our fastback Valiant the "Panda". When we designers hooted at them, they challenged us to come up with a better name. A name from my list was chosen- "Barracuda".

Today, they make up names that don't relate to anything- "Camry", "Prius", "Lexus", etc. Maybe that is better.


"Fury" is one of the best-ever car names, in my opinion. It should have been left as the sporty model, though, and not applied to an entire line of cars.
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-03-24 11:36 AM (#215544 - in reply to #215536)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Boris56 - 2010-03-25 7:41 AM

john samsen - 2010-03-24 10:33 AM

Ever think about commercial names, how strange some of them are? Americans didn't want a monarchy, but think of all the products that use such names-
Burger King, Dairy Queen, Imperial cars, Royal Lancers, Mercury Monarch, Crown Victoria, etc. By the way, Valiant came from Exner's favorite comic strip, "Prince Valiant".

Furies were nasty mythical beings- what a strange name for cars! Then what in the world is a "Sport Fury"? Like a Sport Demon, or Sport Vampire!

The Plymouth division execs intended to name our fastback Valiant the "Panda". When we designers hooted at them, they challenged us to come up with a better name. A name from my list was chosen- "Barracuda".

Today, they make up names that don't relate to anything- "Camry", "Prius", "Lexus", etc. Maybe that is better.


"Fury" is one of the best-ever car names, in my opinion. It should have been left as the sporty model, though, and not applied to an entire line of cars.


***********************************

All car companies did that back then. Came up with a good name and idea and slowly turned it to
meaningless parody of what it started out as. The Fury is about the best example though. A brute,
go-fast, special edition car, by 59 you could get it built in any color, on any body from a wagon to a
dump truck! By the 60's, the Fury was like modern movies or video games : Fury XII, Avenger
of God ! (and all on a stripper slant-6 sedan !!!)

Look at what Ford did to the Falcon or Mustang. Within a few years they were bloated dogs, the Mustang
becoming little more than a Pinto.
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ExWagonista
Posted 2010-03-24 12:23 PM (#215549 - in reply to #215525)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up


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The 62 light and trunk deck looks like a 60 Olds from the stern

 

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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-25 5:35 PM (#215755 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

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Couple things, on that Don Butler interior design.

Can't quite read Don's description for that steering wheel ; "Deep Seat (or "Sea"?) steering wheel.

The steering wheel is flattened on its top, only (the Diablo, too); apparently for ease of viewing.

The production 'square' wheels are also flattened on their bottoms, for ease of ingress/egress.

The 1957 Dodge Custom Royal sedans used a derivative of Don's 'stellar' upholstery fabric, which they called "Celestial".

Lotsa rear seat legroom in Don's car.






Edited by d500neil 2010-03-25 5:38 PM
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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-25 6:13 PM (#215760 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

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One major reason why the down-sized 62's look so awkward is due to their squared-off C-pillars, with
those rounded back 'lights' (windows).

Notice how exciting the 62 Super Sport is, with its fastback 60-61 roof style on it.

The downsized verts, with their tops up or down, look intriguing to the eye, but, those fixed-roof versions just look
awkward, to me.

John's vision for the 62 DeSoto had it featuring a very modern, sophisticated and aggressive roof style, not unlike that of the
(bloated-body-) Buick Riviera.

Buick had an interesting advertising slogan for the Riv; "He or She?"---referring to the car as being somewhat androgenous in styling.





Edited by d500neil 2010-03-25 6:15 PM
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arizona mopar gold
Posted 2010-03-25 8:19 PM (#215774 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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I just got John's DVD in the mail...its kool watching!!.......its an honour to know and chat with you John......again, Than you,John
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Ex-finlover
Posted 2010-03-26 8:07 PM (#215934 - in reply to #215755)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Neil - Here's the description Don Butler wrote on that interior concept:

"All seat adjustments except swivel action individually powered by controls on tunnel platform.
Drivers' seat omits foot rest, adds fore & aft control. Other features: heat outlet in tunnel
enclosure; all controls flush; powered door & window controls in side arm rest ledge; drive
control buttons in ledge incline; deep vee steering wheel; turn signal buttons below wheel
rim; vent exhaust fans & 4 courtesy lights in roof; padded door trim & front seat back panels;
automatic-operating front glove drawer with snack tray cover inside; rear glove box with
snack tray cover on tunnel platform; front radio speaker between seats; rear speaker &
individual volume contol in like position."
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Rebels-59
Posted 2010-03-27 6:20 PM (#216026 - in reply to #215934)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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POSTED FOR NEIL D500

Anybody recognize this car?

It was at the B-J in 1995



(132.jpg)



(133.jpg)



(134.jpg)



(135.jpg)



(136.jpg)



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OldiesNut
Posted 2010-03-27 6:47 PM (#216035 - in reply to #213818)
Subject: RE:Exner styling



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1960DesotoAdventurer - 2010-03-14 3:01 PM

John Samsen-[The 1960 Valiant is pure Exner. His design was used on the Karmann/Ghia VW. Most of us designers were against using "toilet seat" dummy spares and Virgil Jr. says he tried to talk Ex out of that cliche' on cars that the two Exners collaborated on, like the reincarnated Stutz, but failed. ]


Thanks for taking the time to answer our questions and give us a greater insight into what was going on in the design dept. during the Forward Look era.
Its incredible to actually be able to talk with someone that was involved with these great cars!

Unfortunately,I have to agree with you and Virgil Exner Jr. the "classic elements" like the toilet seat look out of place and awkward on these futuristic cars. To qoute Will Darnell,I guess Virgil Jr. should have "talked harder".

I have to confess I have never liked the 1960 Valiant and actually think its quite ugly to be honest. It seems mis-shapen and clunky looking,like it was left out on a hot day and melted in the sun
I never understood how that car could have sold when it was up against the beautiful full sized finned Plymouths. I know they were trying to compete with the Falcon and the Comet,but the comet was a much more attractive car.
Besides,you could have the slant 6 in a belveder in 1960 and gotten economy and style,so what was the need for the valiant?

I would be interested to know what you and the other designers thought about the Valiant at the time......am I the only one who thinks its ugly? it didnt even seem to be a Chrylser product the way it looked.

:laugh:


You're not alone '60 D.A.! I was surprised to hear that those nerdy little Valians were "pure Exner." I even did a speech on 1950's automotive styling for my speechmaking class last semester and flipped back and forth between a slide of a '60 Fury and a '60 Valiant to emphasize the tragedy of the compact killing the finned beauty.
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OldiesNut
Posted 2010-03-27 7:13 PM (#216040 - in reply to #216035)
Subject: RE:Exner styling



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Mr . Samsen, If it's not too irritating to have more praise heaped on you, maybe the fact that it's coming from a College kid helps. I never thought I'd get such a personal look into the history of these gorgeous cars from such a reliable source in a million years. The sketches and concept artwork you've shared have been truly stunning, you're stories have held me in rapt attention. Also, as a teenage retro-nut It feels wonderful to hear this stuff from a man who lived it, letting me see through a window back to a more classy, optomistic time. My Parents are too young for it and their parents are too old for it. I realize how corny it is to say that it must have been like "Mad Men" at your office in those days, but you fellas affected automobiles that affected a decade itself.
Now that I've bent your ear in two, I'll shove a question into it:
I've noticed that the fins on the '59 and '60 Plymouths and Dodges seemed to become thinner and less integrated to the rear deck than their predecessors, and by '61 they were gone. Are you aware what prompted shaving 'em off the Plyms and Dodges while letting the Desotos, Chryslers and Imperials keep 'em another year?
Many thanks, Sir.
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Ex-finlover
Posted 2010-03-27 10:00 PM (#216053 - in reply to #216026)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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The red convertible above is a Ghia Assimetrica. It is based on the Valiant platform.
This was a more road-going version of the XNR concept car.
It was originally sold to a Belgian detective novelist Georges Simenon.
Not sure if they made or sold more than one.

http://www.madle.org/exnrasi.htm



Edited by Ex-finlover 2010-03-27 10:02 PM




(1156644895860_Moottoriurheilu_1961_kansi.jpg)



(Georges Simenon.jpg)



(karr60a4fk.jpg)



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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-28 3:56 PM (#216111 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

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Now, there's an exclusive car club!

Thanks, Brett; looks like the Blackhawk bought this red car at the B-J, in 1995.




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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-03-28 4:13 PM (#216115 - in reply to #216111)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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This is an Exner creation ????

I have seen better looking kit cars.

Ever notice how the employees at record stores play the weirdest "music" ? When asked
about it, they will tell you they are so tired of "ordinary" and anything to bring in variety is
a good thing. I suspect this is how car designers have to look at it too, especially when
pressure comes down from above to always be coming up with something new.

I wonder if the FL were appreciated as a zenith moment in automotive design at the time,
or they were just another step in the ladder like all that came before or after ? I cannot get
my head around that, but looking at what came after fins, there must have been some
rationalization to it.
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-28 4:22 PM (#216120 - in reply to #216040)
Subject: RE:Exner styling



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OldiesNut - 2010-03-27 7:13 PM

Mr . Samsen, If it's not too irritating to have more praise heaped on you, maybe the fact that it's coming from a College kid helps. I never thought I'd get such a personal look into the history of these gorgeous cars from such a reliable source in a million years. The sketches and concept artwork you've shared have been truly stunning, you're stories have held me in rapt attention. Also, as a teenage retro-nut It feels wonderful to hear this stuff from a man who lived it, letting me see through a window back to a more classy, optomistic time. My Parents are too young for it and their parents are too old for it. I realize how corny it is to say that it must have been like "Mad Men" at your office in those days, but you fellas affected automobiles that affected a decade itself.
Now that I've bent your ear in two, I'll shove a question into it:
I've noticed that the fins on the '59 and '60 Plymouths and Dodges seemed to become thinner and less integrated to the rear deck than their predecessors, and by '61 they were gone. Are you aware what prompted shaving 'em off the Plyms and Dodges while letting the Desotos, Chryslers and Imperials keep 'em another year?
Many thanks, Sir.


Glad to hear younger folks appreciate the old cars!

Economics had a lot to do with styling trends. Fins were difficult to make and expensive, compared to "plain-jane" rear ends. By minimising or deleting them the cars could sell for less. Exner told us in 1957 that fins were a passing fad, and we had to come up with interesting ways to do rear ends without them. There was more money for extensive changes to the '61 Plymouth and Dodge and less for facelifts for the bigger cars, so it took longer to get rid of the fins on the Desotos and Chryslers. The '62's were the all-new changes throughout the car lines, and they were getting rid of fins. GM and Ford did likewise. Maybe the "big three" got together and decided to save money by eliminating fins?

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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-28 4:40 PM (#216125 - in reply to #216115)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



"The Original Source"

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Doctor DeSoto - 2010-03-28 4:13 PM

This is an Exner creation ????

I have seen better looking kit cars.

Ever notice how the employees at record stores play the weirdest "music" ? When asked
about it, they will tell you they are so tired of "ordinary" and anything to bring in variety is
a good thing. I suspect this is how car designers have to look at it too, especially when
pressure comes down from above to always be coming up with something new.

I wonder if the FL were appreciated as a zenith moment in automotive design at the time,
or they were just another step in the ladder like all that came before or after ? I cannot get
my head around that, but looking at what came after fins, there must have been some
rationalization to it.


Once we had to paint 4' by 8' banners and hang them from the studio ceiling- they shouted "NEW!!", "HOT!!", "WILD", etc. This was per a directive from styling management. Pressure was always on us to come up with different concepts. We soon saw that there was a limited number of ways fins could be designed to look different and good. We had a fun time designing the FL cars, but it had to end. The post war optimism was fading as concern over the US-Soviet faceoff developed. Cars had to become more practical. Duh!

So the FL became an unique era in automotive history, and will continue to be cherished as long as people care about cars!

And, the Assymetrica was somebody's takeoff on Exner's design of the "XNR". We designers liked sports and race cars, and thought Ex's workout on the XNR was pretty cool, despite having been built on a Valiant chassis which made it larger than it should have been. Ex was a race car fan, gave Kurtis Craft some designs for their Indy cars.

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-28 4:52 PM




(exner xnr 8x72.jpg)



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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-28 4:43 PM (#216127 - in reply to #216120)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

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Doc, John explained, up above here, somewhere, that the 60 Valiant (and the XNR and the Assimetrica)
employed a lot of Ex's personal styling preferences, and, we know that a lot of the FWDLK designs were
created by Ex's styling department, but NOT, by Mr. Ex, necessarily/personally---Right, John????




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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-28 5:04 PM (#216130 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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The heads of design for the car companies rarely did any design of the production cars. They picked and chose sketches and large renderings by the designers, and suggested changes in the clay models. Ex went farther than other design execs in doing personal designing, as he had a private studio where he and a couple assistants developed the concept cars. The top execs were responsible for the designs that reached production, and the designs that were chosen naturally had to be accepted by the design execs, and so the designers tried to come up with the type of styling the execs liked. Sometimes a design slipped by the filter of the styling chief. Dodge studio was claying up a design by one of the designers that was liked in the studio. When Elwood Engle saw it, he didn't like it. While he was on vacation, the model was finished, and the Dodge Division people loved it, so Engle had to let it go through. That became the Charger, of the "General Lee" fame. A great seller!
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B/G 61
Posted 2010-03-28 5:54 PM (#216134 - in reply to #212729)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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B/G 61 - 2010-03-06 4:11 PM

I'll dive in like many will with a question about a specific car - the '61 Dodge . . . Is it true the final design was picked out of the trash on a crumpled piece of paper ??? ANYTHING you want to say about the '61 Dodge and its design I'm ALL EARS (eyes )


I know you have been hit with a ton of questions, and I can guess a lot of PM's . . . I thank you for ALL of your responces - I, like most, LOVE to hear what you have to say about any and all things related to the Forward Look era -

I LOVE the '61 Dodges - MOST say it is one of the ugliest cars ever produced - can you shed some light on how this car came to be ???







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Chrycoman
Posted 2010-03-28 6:48 PM (#216140 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Well, after long drawn out grief in trying to get my old photo software to work on my 'new' XP computer (it did work with Vista - it was designed for Windows 98) I acquired Photosho Essentials 6.0. And, now that I can get around in it, sort of ....

Attached are some photos of the 1962 DeSoto from 1959 and early 1960. The first two are from July, 1959, and I believe the convertible is the one shown in the styling room shot earlier in this thread.

The third is from September and shows some changes in trim.

The fourth is from some date. It is from a photocopy I took of a page of a magazine back in 1990. Note the rear quarter treatment - no bird wing.

The last two are from February, 1960, and are supposed to be the sedan design finalized for production. At least until Chrysler realized they did not have the money to tool new bodies for the big models.




(1962 desoto 5907 1.jpg)



(1962 desoto 5907 2.jpg)



(1962 desoto 5909 1.jpg)



(1962 desoto 5912 1.jpg)



(1962 desoto 6002 1.jpg)



(1962 desoto 6002 2.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments 1962 desoto 5907 1.jpg (241KB - 363 downloads)
Attachments 1962 desoto 5907 2.jpg (297KB - 340 downloads)
Attachments 1962 desoto 5909 1.jpg (293KB - 309 downloads)
Attachments 1962 desoto 5912 1.jpg (284KB - 340 downloads)
Attachments 1962 desoto 6002 1.jpg (294KB - 317 downloads)
Attachments 1962 desoto 6002 2.jpg (294KB - 316 downloads)
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-03-28 6:56 PM (#216141 - in reply to #216134)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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I always thought the 61 Dodge was an ugly car ... ever since they were new.

In retrospect, I have come to see the design mock-ups and styling trends that "explain"
the odd Dodge elements. Personally, I do not like the direction all Detroit styling took after
1960 as a rule, the heavier roofs, the pointless body contours, but anything looks "less"
when compared to a 57 NY'er ! But the 61 Dodge was certainly an interesting car and quite
good looking in a sedate way when given the right roof, etc. My brother owns a 61 Polara
coupe and it is quite stunning !

I also notice that they look FAR more impressive in person that 99% of photography can
capture. There is a tan Seneca sedan here in town that I toy with buying. It is the ultimate
dullard for one of these, but who can't love those rear wheel cut outs on the Dart ? And with
those extra doors, pillars, a drab paint color and some dog-dishie/blackwalls ? Hard to beat !

It is a shame that Exner did not get to stick around long enough to usher in whatever might
have followed the fins, ... at least long enough to see another definitive style. I HATE Engle's
style preferences. He was a Ford guy, through and through.

61 Dodges are indeed cool, even if a tad bizarre.
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Chrycoman
Posted 2010-03-28 7:19 PM (#216144 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Next is Plymouth - with smaller photos.

The first five are from July, 1959, with the first two showing a model with a front end taken from John's 1957 DeSoto design.

The sixth is apparently a proposal from Exner for the shrunken Plymouth.

And the last two are the almost finalized 1962 Plymouth from July, 1960. Not the location of the fin on the hood and trunk lid, as well as the rear end of the car.

I have but one photo of a mock up of the 1962 Dodge, and that is of the shrunken series taken in February, 1960. Except for some trim differences, it is the same as the production model.




(1962 plymouth 5907 1.jpg)



(1962 plymouth 5907 2.jpg)



(1962 plymouth 5907 3.jpg)



(1962 plymouth 5907 4.jpg)



(1962 plymouth 5907 5.jpg)



(1962 plymouth 5909 1.jpg)



(1962 plymouth 6007 1.jpg)



(1962 plymouth 6007 2.jpg)



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Attachments 1962 plymouth 5907 1.jpg (66KB - 343 downloads)
Attachments 1962 plymouth 5907 2.jpg (71KB - 365 downloads)
Attachments 1962 plymouth 5907 3.jpg (94KB - 336 downloads)
Attachments 1962 plymouth 5907 4.jpg (91KB - 329 downloads)
Attachments 1962 plymouth 5907 5.jpg (88KB - 327 downloads)
Attachments 1962 plymouth 5909 1.jpg (56KB - 320 downloads)
Attachments 1962 plymouth 6007 1.jpg (110KB - 313 downloads)
Attachments 1962 plymouth 6007 2.jpg (92KB - 305 downloads)
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-28 7:34 PM (#216146 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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I'm glad to see the pictures of the 1962 Desoto and Plymouth proposals! I was working on the '62 Imperial when these were done. We designers couldn't believe Ex was serious about the assymetrical Plymouth rear end! This was one time when he directly designed the rear end.

I did not know much about the '61 Dodge when it was designed. If it was from a wadded up sketch, I think it should have been left in the waste can! Sorry, '61 Dodge fans, but I just don't dig it. Especially the Ford like grille. But not everyone has the same likes; and that makes life interesting! Actually, this roof and rear end, except for the potty seat, aren't too bad!

The 1962 Chrysler lineup shown above, and the small '62 Plymouths and Dodges were the last production cars under Exner's direction. He was trying to give the company the kind of design the top brass thought the public wanted. Instead of being radical and different, the American companies simply wanted to produce the biggest looking cars. That meant stretching them from the front to the rear without interruptions, and wide looking grilles and rear-ends. I think ex's '62 designs were better than GM's or Fords. I and most of the designers were very disappointed when Ex was put out to pasture.

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-28 7:56 PM




(61 dodge 2.jpg)



(61 Dodge.jpg)



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Attachments 61 dodge 2.jpg (127KB - 322 downloads)
Attachments 61 Dodge.jpg (64KB - 324 downloads)
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-28 7:48 PM (#216148 - in reply to #216144)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Chrycoman - 2010-03-28 7:19 PM

The first five are from July, 1959, with the first two showing a model with a front end taken from John's 1957 DeSoto design.



No, It is not from my design.

That Plymouth wagon above really looks long! It was, but check the stretching of the photo... look at the wheels vertically, and you see ovals!

John



Edited by john samsen 2010-03-28 7:52 PM
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Chrycoman
Posted 2010-03-28 8:11 PM (#216151 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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One thing I have always wondered about was the situation from 1956, after Exner's heart attack, through to 1959 when William Schmidt, originally hired to fill in for Exner while on sick leave, departed Chrysler.

The 1960 and 1961 models, especially, seem to be designed by two different groups - one for the front and one for the rear.

Also, someone said the "S" series designs were done by Exner to put his stamp on the company's designs again.

The first photo in this batch shows a clay for the 1960 DeSoto. The side clearly shows what was to become the DeSoto and Chrysler, but the front does not go with the rest of the car.

The next two show what Chrysler was supposedly working on for 1962 before Exner unveiled his new styling theme.

I am not all that impressed with the grilles Exner's 1962 Chryslers and DeSotos, but the Plymouth, Dodge and Imperial would have done well, IMHO.







(1960 desoto 5902 1.jpg)



(1962 desoto E 5902 1.jpg)



(1962 desoto E 5902 2.jpg)



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Attachments 1960 desoto 5902 1.jpg (89KB - 314 downloads)
Attachments 1962 desoto E 5902 1.jpg (103KB - 308 downloads)
Attachments 1962 desoto E 5902 2.jpg (101KB - 310 downloads)
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-28 10:02 PM (#216163 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



"The Original Source"

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Chrycoman, you keep amazing me with these photos I have not seen before! Where did you get them, if it isn't too personal?

That top photo of a 1960 Desoto buggs me! The split grille theme is one I played with on a number of programs. At that time, we designers seldom went into the separate clay rooms where the full size clays were done. I think I did some sketches of front ends that were similar to that in the picture- but what might have looked good in a slick sketch might look bad in 3-d where the real world restrictions applied. Anyway, I won't take credit for that poor sculpturing job in the photo.

Speaking of '61 Dodges, here is a concept sketch by Pete Loda for the 'big 62 Dodge. Notice the grille- similar to the '61 Dodge? Maybe we now know who to blame for the '61!

Also, a sketch from Dave Cummins playing with the assymetrical motif of Exner's.

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-28 10:08 PM




(Loda Dodge 62 7x72.jpg)



(55 Cummins Assym '59 7x72.jpg)



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Attachments Loda Dodge 62 7x72.jpg (34KB - 320 downloads)
Attachments 55 Cummins Assym '59 7x72.jpg (50KB - 473 downloads)
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Ex-finlover
Posted 2010-03-28 11:09 PM (#216178 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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John - Maybe you can elaborate on the vibe at Chrysler in the late 50's when both Ex and Schmidt were around.
I met with Fred Hudson, Jr. this weekend. He worked in Imperial studio during the development of the 59's thru 61 models.
Fred said many of the designers felt stuck in the middle - with Ex looking around and directing things
in the morning, then disappearing after lunch. Bill Schmidt would arrive in the afternoon and try to undo
everything.

Sounds like too many cooks were in the kitchen - I'm sure the design staff understood one of them would leave soon enough...
But not exactly sure which one.

Edited by Ex-finlover 2010-03-28 11:16 PM
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OldiesNut
Posted 2010-03-29 3:21 PM (#216255 - in reply to #216178)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Mr. Samsen I don't think this one has been asked before:
I've always thought one of the coolest features of a forward look car that distinguished them from their counterparts were the rear view mirrors that were mounted on the dash "standing up" instead of the roof or the upper windshield "hanging down." Are you aware of what inspired that neat trend? What year did it die out?

Chrycoman- Is it just me, or does that 1960 desoto clay model look like a '59 Pontiac? That split grill...

Edited by OldiesNut 2010-03-29 3:26 PM
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alumcanTandThd
Posted 2010-03-29 4:35 PM (#216265 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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1962 plymouth 5907 3.jpg)

I see a almost identical rear wheel cut outs between this and the '91-'93 Caprices, and '91-'96 Caprice/Road Master/Custom Cruiser, wagons. (I don't know how to find a Caprice Wagon picture and post it)
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-29 5:21 PM (#216271 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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When William Schmidt was put in charge, he obviously hoped he would keep the job, and some of the managment people did too, and cosied up to him. Others hoped for Ex's return and were not too friendly with Schmidt. This created two factions. Schmidt pushed a more Ford-like styling. I remember getting contrary directions from some of the execs, during this time. After Ex returned, he showed he was in charge again, doing the
FliteWing and Turboflite concept cars, and directing the '62's.

I don't know from nothin' about the interiors. They were done in studios we hardly ever visited. After Ex left, the studios were reorganized like Ford's, and the designers were in the same rooms the full size clays were sculpted, and usually directed the modeling. We then saw interior and instrument panel bucks. Exterior designers spent most of their careers on exteriors, and interior designers on interiors. There was a program close to the time I left where some exterior people had to work in interiors, and vice versa. I refused to go into interiors, knowing it would take a while to get up to speed there, and threatened to quit unless I stayed in exteriors. I stayed.

Why did the dash mounted mirrors change? Why did the push-button transmission selector go away? My guess is that the new conservative top management (Newburg, Townsend, Cafiero, etc. ) were afraid to be different from GM and Ford. The end of the Exner era, the "Forward Look", coincided with the leaving of Tex Colbert.
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-03-29 8:48 PM (#216310 - in reply to #216271)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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When exactly did Ex and Tex get their walking papers ? Weren't they both gone by the end of 60 ? .... 61 ?

It is probably more coincidence than anything, but the "feel" of a Mopar just dropped like a lead balloon after
1961 .... some elements lingered, but the "feel" just isn't the same, much like the difference between the 54's
and the 55's. It is as if the "soul" of what made these cars had "left the building". For the next five years it was
as if the company was lost and without a rudder until they seized on the chiseled look of the 66 models. But even
then, it was a deeply scaled back "reach for the top".

John, I really enjoy your posts and the anecdotal sidebar info. We can all read the books and know the stats, but
insight like yours is preciously rare. Thank you so much for sharing.
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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-29 8:51 PM (#216312 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

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IMHO, and from looking at our cars, it seems obvious to me that the dash mounted rear view mirrors were a
necessary consequence of the new-low-for-57 FWDLK'ers.

The torsion bars really accounted for a lowering of the hoods, replacing the taller physically coil springs from the earlier
years.

Then, there's the drop-down floor pans which were necessary to accommodate the lowered rooflines, so that there was
not any real space for a roof-suspended rear view mirror, that did not significantly block out a major portion of the
driver's field of view.

In other words, the low mounted rear view mirror was an unfortunate consequence of the Forwardlook design.

The mirrors were moved closer to the driver in 1958+, to try to give 'him' more rearward view, and less mirror
vibration at speed, but, I have to say that I prefer the 1957 mirror positioning, to that of the 58, as my eyes have
difficulty in accommodating to the focus change involved in looking at, or 'finding' the 58 mirror, in relation to
my looking out of the windshield.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with our low mounted mirrors, unless there's somebody seated in the middle area,
or, unless I'm going more than 90 mph (vibration-city).

The push buttons went away, because Joe-Average didn't like them; different from the Lesser-Two major manufacturers' products.




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B/G 61
Posted 2010-03-29 8:57 PM (#216315 - in reply to #216312)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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d500neil - 2010-03-29 8:51 PM


The push buttons went away, because Joe-Average didn't like them; different from the Lesser-Two major manufacturers' products.




Push-buttons made it through '64 - I thought the Gov. "outlawed" them ??? No ???









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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-03-29 10:26 PM (#216332 - in reply to #216315)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Yes, it was a gov't mandate that dictated that all mfr's use a similar shift pattern and module.

Mopar was not the only mfr using oddball shifters. Buick had Reverse at the far end from Park,
Corvair had a dash shifter like Mopar did in '55. There may have been others ?

First year effective was 1965.

I always thought it was a Federal law, but a cursory internet search suggests it is a State-based
set of laws that mandated a driver's side exterior mirror on all cars mf'd after 01 Jan, 1965. I won
a court case years ago here in Washington based on this. I was cited for no outside rearview on
one of my old cars that had never had them. But as it is relevant to this thread, ... exterior mirrors
were not legally required on new cars well into the 1960's, and a stripper car could likely not have any.


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Chrycoman
Posted 2010-03-30 12:56 AM (#216350 - in reply to #216315)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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B/G 61 - 2010-03-29 5:57 PM

d500neil - 2010-03-29 8:51 PM
The push buttons went away, because Joe-Average didn't like them; different from the Lesser-Two major manufacturers' products.


Push-buttons made it through '64 - I thought the Gov. "outlawed" them ??? No ???



NO!!!!!!

Many people claim the federal government mandated the elimination of pushbuttons. One problem, though. The acts that gave the federal government the power to dictate standards to the auto industry were not ENACTED until 1966. The two acts enacted in 1966 were the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act and the Highway Safety Act. And it was not until 1968 that federal government began setting auto safety standards.

So, how could the government, in 1968, dictate standards to the auto industry in 1963? (The 1965 models went into production in August, 1964, and it takes more than a day or two, or even a month or two, to design, engineer, tool and produce a revised transmission mechanism.

The individual states in the U.S., and provinces in Canada, had laws concerning such things as rear view mirrors, seat belts, headlamps, back up lights and the like. Which is why it took two years to get the 48 states and nine provinces to accept the use of sealed beam headlamps for the 1940 models and longer for the acceptance of the four headlamp system in the late 1950's.

So the decision to drop pushbuttons was made by Chrysler management. By 1963 Chrysler was the only North American manufacturer to have pushbutton transmissions. Packard (1956), Mercury (1957-58), Monarch (1957) and Rambler (1958-62) all had, and dropped, the buttons. What does it say about a manufacturer that offers an item three other manufacturers tried and dropped?

The dashmounted rear view mirror was strictly a design item. Many European cars, especially sport models, had their mirrors on the instrument panel. And the Loewy-designed Studebaker coupes and convertibles of the 1940's with one-piece windshields had the mirror located there. It just gave the car a cleaner look through the windshield.

The reason they moved it from the centre was due to the fact if someone was seated in the centre of either the front or rear seat the driver saw nothing but the passenger, especially if the centre passenger was large or tall. By locating it just to the right of the driver gave an open space between the left and centre passengers. It worked fine on the European cars as the seats were too narrow for three across. Chrysler began moving the mirror back up to the top of the windshield with the 1960 models.
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Kenny J.
Posted 2010-03-30 1:55 AM (#216352 - in reply to #216332)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Doctor DeSoto - 2010-03-29 7:26 PM

I always thought it was a Federal law, but a cursory internet search suggests it is a State-based
set of laws that mandated a driver's side exterior mirror on all cars mf'd after 01 Jan, 1965. I won
a court case years ago here in Washington based on this. I was cited for no outside rearview on
one of my old cars that had never had them. But as it is relevant to this thread, ... exterior mirrors
were not legally required on new cars well into the 1960's, and a stripper car could likely not have any.





This reminds me of an incident in my hometown:

I have a friend who had a '59 Olds four door hardtop during the late 1980s. It was his "hobby car." The car had no seatbelts. Seatbelts were not required in cars sold new in Wisconsin prior to the 1962 model year.

He and his wife were traveling with their infant son. The child was riding in his mother's lap, in the front seat. They happened to park next to a patrol car. The Milwaukee police officer informed them the child had to be restrained in a car seat and the seat had to be restrained by a seatbelt. Well Jim figured he could "one up" the cop. So he told the officer that his car was a 1959 and it didn't require seatbelts. The cop fired back by replying, "Nobody can make you put seatbelts in that car, but I can nail you for child endangerment for carrying that kid in your lap in that car!"

From that day forward, the kid rode in a car seat, mounted in the rear seat of their daily driver '84 Escort.

K.
----- Original Message
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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-30 4:37 PM (#216441 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

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Bill, when CHRY moved the rear view mirror to the front of the dash, its use was still obscured by anyone
sitting in the middle seats.

The mirrors were low-mounted, due to the driver's frontal view being obscured when they might be installed from the
roof header panels, due to the newly-designed lowness of our cars.

I recalled your earlier message about the 1966 enactment of the uniform shift-lever law, and so waited for your message to arrive here regarding that matter.






Edited by d500neil 2010-03-30 4:39 PM
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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-30 4:41 PM (#216442 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

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...In fact, regarding the necessarily-low-installed rear view mirrors, Dodge put out a 1957 TSB on their high-speed
vibration, and suggested shortening their shafts, to decrease the angle-of-the-dangle on them.




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B/G 61
Posted 2010-03-30 4:52 PM (#216443 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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I thought the review mirror on the dash was there so, we the driver, could check the speedo, rearview, and sideview mirrors (on the front fenders) with minimal eye/head movement (they were all on the same plane) - I think I read that somewhere - like an ad or owners booklet. . . or maybe I'm making it all up !!!! - I do believe I read that somewhere . . .
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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-30 5:03 PM (#216447 - in reply to #216443)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

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...Right, and that's what the 1957-positioning allows, a lot better view, than the 1958+ style provides (being up higher, and
in your face, so to speak).

I like the 1957-positioning a lot, that is, unless and until I'm carrying some passengers.

The 1958 mirror, being a tad higher-up, visually, would give the driver a better/closer
view to the rear, if the car has a steep "California Rake" on it; that's for sure.

Of course the 57/58 rear view mirrors were excellent, for deaf drivers....





Edited by d500neil 2010-03-30 5:06 PM
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Rebels-59
Posted 2010-03-30 6:03 PM (#216460 - in reply to #216447)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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POSTED FOR NEIL D500

Don't think that these photos have been offered up, previously.

These are from "Chrysler & Imperial, The Postwar Years"(Langworth, 1976).

Some of the captions are hard to read, so:

#2: Details of the clay models for the 1961 Imperial.

#4: Exner's plans for the '62 Chrysler....John Riccardo is shown.

#5/6: Dodge, center, emerged relatively the same as
it was in this studio photo, of FEB 1960. Imperial
was entirely altered.

#9: The 1963 Imperial ended up far different than it began,
in the minds of stylists...

#10: 1964 Chrysler clay model is close to final form.



(153.jpg)



(154.jpg)



(155.jpg)



(156.jpg)



(157.jpg)



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Rebels-59
Posted 2010-03-30 6:04 PM (#216461 - in reply to #216460)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

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.



(158.jpg)



(159.jpg)



(160.jpg)



(161.jpg)



(162.jpg)



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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-30 6:44 PM (#216473 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

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in 160.jpg , above, you can see how the roofline of the 64+ Barracuda might have evolved.

So, while all of our (grand-)daddies were out buying the exciting new 1960 models, the Corp stylists had
THESE prospects being planned out for the next few years....






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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-30 8:15 PM (#216487 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



"The Original Source"

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Location: Hilton Head SC
It's great to see these pix! Here is a full-size rendering I did for the 1963 Imperial. I was in the Imperial studio in 1960, and Exner was overseeing the design process. It's probably fortunate that the company brass decided not to put money into a new Imperial body, and go with facelifts for '61 and '62. I designed all the ornamentation and tail lamps for the '62, including the round eagle medallion.



('63 Imp fs Rendering 8x72.jpg)



(10 1959-1961 Imperial taillamp concept-Samsen.jpg)



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Attachments '63 Imp fs Rendering 8x72.jpg (36KB - 504 downloads)
Attachments 10 1959-1961 Imperial taillamp concept-Samsen.jpg (83KB - 676 downloads)
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-30 8:26 PM (#216490 - in reply to #216473)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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d500neil - 2010-03-30 6:44 PM

in 160.jpg , above, you can see how the roofline of the 64+ Barracuda might have evolved.



Not so. The '64 Barracuda roof was developed in clay by me, from one of my sketches. I had not seen the above clay at the time.

After working on the Barracuda, I did this sketch for a show car that never materialized. I was pushing big backlites!

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-30 8:33 PM




(63PlyShow7X72.jpg)



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Attachments 63PlyShow7X72.jpg (46KB - 467 downloads)
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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-30 8:31 PM (#216492 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

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Well, your Imperial rendition made it into becoming a full sized clay model, above, John, but it evolved into the 1963 Chrysler.

That's amazing history-documentation.


Did you know Mr. Riccardo, well? What works did he create?





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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-30 8:35 PM (#216493 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Saw Riccardo in the studios and in styling shows. Did not know him- I was on a much lower rung of the ladder. I don't know what he may have contributed to design.
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StillOutThere
Posted 2010-03-31 8:00 AM (#216545 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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John,

I'm curious how and when it was decided to file a patent application for design work with the US Patent Office.   It would seem like the use of the designs is so fleeting, and when I try to search the USPO for Chrysler patents a million things don't seem to be there that I would think would be there.

Here is one of your own for a wheel cover.   How many patents did you have?

http://www.google.com/patents?id=ufRxAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=samsen++%22chrysler+corporation%22&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=1#v=onepage&q=samsen%20%22chrysler%20corporation%22&f=false

There is a Google search tool for patents.   Google "google patents" to get to it and see what you can find.

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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-31 9:34 AM (#216549 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



"The Original Source"

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Most design features were not patented. Only a few items were, the thought being that others would not know which were, so wouldn't copy any. There seemed to be a gentlemen's agtreement between the companies that they would not copy each other, however, there was active espionage activities to find out what the competition was planning. I have patents for the '59 Desoto rear bumper and wheel cover. Usually the studio manager signed the patents, so it was a rare thing when a designer did. Maybe my manager, Dick Baird at the time, thought it would encourage a newbie designer with Desoto. Of course, I was an old experienced designer, having all of three years experience at Ford.
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57burb
Posted 2010-03-31 4:09 PM (#216569 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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As for the dash-mounted mirror-

The front of my wagon has been lowered -substantially- and the rear has too, but not to quite the same degree. The resultant rake made the car literally impossible to see out of as the OEM rearview mirror was aimed directly at the tailgate. I found a '58 mirror stalk and substituted it on the car (more involved than I would have thought) and I now have a usable mirror, although there is still about 1/3 of a mirrorfull of tailgate in the view.

And speaking of my old beater wagon-

John, can you give us any insight into the rust problems of the '57 cars and any impact you guys in the styling departments felt about that? It had to be a crush to your ego to see such beautifully styled cars go to market, only to see them quickly rust away!



Edited by 57burb 2010-03-31 4:10 PM
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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2010-03-31 5:09 PM (#216577 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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One of the advantages of the dash-mirror on my '62 NewYorker Wagon is that I never get blinded at night by other another car's headlights behind me. I usually only see their windshields.
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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-31 8:04 PM (#216588 - in reply to #216577)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

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Danny, you posted a photograph, on the Let's Go Racing thread, of a steeply California-Raked black
Plymouth tow car(?), that was so much inclined that the owner had to retrofit a header mounted mirror
on it, in order to be able to see out of its rear end.




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Sonoramic60
Posted 2010-04-04 3:44 PM (#217067 - in reply to #216588)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up


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Mr. Samson --
I've been out of the net for a while, so I'm a bit late on getting in on this, but it is a great thread and I thank you for your great contibutions to automotive art.
I would like to ask if you know how the "Golden Commando Power" and "SonoRamic Commando Power" badges (we used to call them "scare emblems") came about on the '60-'61 Plymouths? Dodge had the D-500 ones for a while, and GM had "Tripower" and "Fuel Injection" (as did those very few '58 Bendix-Chrysler jobs), and of course everybody put some sort of "V" for their V-8s, but it was rather a first time for Plymouth. I've always wondered if there was any conscious effort to advertise those engines or were the badges some things that were just stuck on as an afterthought?
Joe Godec
'57 Chrysler 300C (is there really any other 300C?), '60 Fury SonoRamic, '65 Fuelie Vette
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john samsen
Posted 2010-04-05 10:16 AM (#217170 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Joe,

As I write this, I'm looking at a little gold and black plate on my desk that says "Golden Commando Power".

Around 1962, there were two racing clubs sponsored by Chrysler Corp. The Dodge "RamChargers" and the Plymouth "Golden Commando's". A number of Mopar engineers and designers belonged to the clubs, and "besides souping up" their own cars, they had stock car racers which they ran in events. The Ram Chargers seemed to get most of the publicity. I think the name "Golden Commando" came from the Plymouth product planners and was used on the Plymouth engines, then picked up by the racing club. I was asked to design the graphics for the 1962-1965 race cars, and came up with the segmented stripe that went over the roof. This influenced me to put the segmented stripe on the 1971 Road runner. BTW, I designed the grille, tail lamps, bumprs, on the 1963 B-bodies- obviously trying to make the short little '62's look longer and wider. There is info on the Commandos at Allpar.com






(commando.jpg)



('63 Plymouth rear 7x72.jpg)



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Attachments commando.jpg (146KB - 560 downloads)
Attachments '63 Plymouth rear 7x72.jpg (75KB - 466 downloads)
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Sonoramic60
Posted 2010-04-08 9:39 AM (#217644 - in reply to #217170)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up


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John --
Yep, I know about the ALLPAR stuff -- I contributed a little to it myself. Did you do any work on the '65 Fury? In 1964, I special ordered a '65 Sport Fury without seeing an actual car, just the dealer's sales brochure. The cover of that brochure had a "Medium Red Metallic" convertible with a matching interior on it, and I placed an order for a 2-dr h/t in the same colors, but with a 426S and 4-speed. It was a great car.
Joe Godec
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john samsen
Posted 2010-04-08 11:44 AM (#217653 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Nope, I didn't do much on the 1965 Fury, but did the final design of the fronts and rears of the 1966 Fury and Belvedere. But now we are getting away from the Forward Look era- I'd like to contribute to the Engle era of Mopar design; know of any post-FL forums?

John
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catman
Posted 2010-04-08 2:12 PM (#217667 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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John,

You may want to have a look at these:

http://www.cbodydrydock.com/forum.php
http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.com/welcome.html


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d500neil
Posted 2010-05-06 4:27 PM (#221999 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

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John, hopefully you are still hanging around these parts...

Here's a question that hasn't been asked, yet:

Over the years (1980's, anyway), I'd hear tell that the 57+ Mopes wheel openings' were specifically designed to
accommodate 15" wheels as OEM on them.

Our cars do look more balanced and comfortable residing on 15" wheels, rather than the 14"ers which were (eventually)
approved : ... in order to help lower the cars, and to accentuate their lengths--and oh yeah; to provide a comfortable ride
due to all the extra air which is contained inside them....

....but do you recall any formal plans or expectations that the 57+ers would have 15" wheels be installed on them?







Edited by d500neil 2010-05-06 4:28 PM
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-05-06 5:13 PM (#222012 - in reply to #221999)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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As long as we are talking 57 design, ... on the Chrysler - DeSoto (not Firesweep), who was responsible for the fender
shape .... namely the headlight hood and opening ? It looks very "feline" - much like the curves on a side view of a cat's
eye or ear. Was this possibly an inspiration ? How about the overswept curl at the point of the fin ?

Thanks in advance !

I have added a link with a good photo (top photo) showing this profile.

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=30557&...


Edited by Doctor DeSoto 2010-05-06 5:17 PM
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djMikulec
Posted 2011-03-27 5:21 PM (#266152 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Shame this thread died last year before the 15" wheel question could be answered, I've often wondered the same thing myself. But in any event, there's a wealth of fantastic info here nonetheless, and thanks to everyone who participated... I'm saving it for future reference. Is John still around? I have some questions about the 63 Newport that I'd love to ask (I'm awaiting delivery on one soon).
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john samsen
Posted 2011-03-27 7:30 PM (#266168 - in reply to #266152)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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See the "John Samsen" thread...general discussion

Don't know about 15" wheels ...I think the Imperial had them.

John
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ttotired
Posted 2013-07-16 7:03 PM (#386139 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Thanks Neil for reminding me of this excelent thread

Does anyone keep in touch with Mr Samsen?

Very interesting man

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dlvh
Posted 2015-07-19 4:28 PM (#484868 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Ok...reviving an old thread, but does anyone have any pictures of the 1960 Full Size Plymouth line...either sketches or clays? Being a former owner of several of those, I'd love to see them in development form.

dlvh
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mikes2nd
Posted 2019-02-16 9:33 PM (#578310 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up


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another concept drawing. Pre plucking

 

I really want to make this car...



Edited by mikes2nd 2019-02-16 10:11 PM




(Virgil_Exner_s_Valiant_concept.jpg)



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Attachments Virgil_Exner_s_Valiant_concept.jpg (29KB - 118 downloads)
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Chrycoman
Posted 2019-02-16 10:38 PM (#578311 - in reply to #578310)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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mikes2nd - 2019-02-16 9:33 PM

another concept drawing. Pre plucking

 

I really want to make this car...




Except for the streamlining and the swept back windshield, it's a 1961 Valiant 2 door hardtop.

Too bad the production model got squared up.

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57burb
Posted 2019-02-18 11:52 AM (#578368 - in reply to #578311)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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that roof is gonna need a LOT of help to get it looking swoopy like the black drawing



(Virgil_Exner_s_Valiant_concept.jpg)



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mikes2nd
Posted 2019-02-18 5:37 PM (#578379 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up


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Chrylser would have overtaken GM and Ford if they actually made cars as cool as their concepts.. I mean did they simply go, "how ugly can we make this beautiful design????"...
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Viper Guy
Posted 2019-02-22 9:38 PM (#578533 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Practically overruled style and hence? You see the results.
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