Posted 2010-11-05 8:55 PM (#248389) Subject: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
I have gotten a real great deal for a "going to be built" 440 for my 59 Vert.
So far, here's what I have.
77 440 from a Dodge truck----this can't be changed for the "Great Deal"
906 Heads, are the 905's that much better?" Is it worth the money for the Aluminum Heads?
Mopar "Purple Shaft Cam" 108 center lobe, either a "509" or a "484" .
Block will be bored, and pistons chosen to achieve about a 9.2 to 1 compression ratio.
I was gonna use the distributor and chrysler electronic ignition from the 400 that is in the car now
(but I'm told that won't work.
I will be running the 2, 600 cfm carbs that I now run on the 400.
The builder claims it should develope about 440 HP (1 hp/ Cu/in)
Here are my goals for the engine.
Plenty of low end torque as I run 272 gears and want to keep them (The car is a freeway cruiser & "Street Prowler")
Want a lil bit of "Lope" at idle---I like a car with an attitude!
Want it to run on 87 Octane, like my 400 does, but could go to 89.
I am planning on having the engine painted red and using chrome valve covers as I have now.
I could paint it silver, paint the valve covers red and try to find D500 valve cover labels.
(I doubt, Neil would go for that thou)?
Anyway, not trying to fool anybody, as you all know, my car was an original Coronet convertible,
converted to a Custom Royal by the seller, except for the eyebrows and the interior, which I
finished (except for the dash pad)
The car will be driven, almost daily , as it is now, and also be in car shows.
Sooooooooo What would you guys do?
Feel free to Critique, Add helpful advice, let me know of any problems you see that I may miss.
The car has a 62, 727 Torqueflite that has been rebuilt and a shift kit added.
Posted 2010-11-06 2:56 AM (#248422 - in reply to #248389) Subject: RE: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 5139 Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA
Is there any significant differences between the 440 truck block and the car blocks--other than the truck may have additional ribbing in the sides of the block? Since this is a truck block , I would assume it has the internal balance steel crank. I hope it does as that would make things simpilar and you would not need to change to a external balance torque converter. Maybe your 400 is a external balance engine and already has the right converter- flex plate?.............................MO
Posted 2010-11-06 6:07 AM (#248430 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 3575 Location: Netherlands
Make sure the motor has a steel crank, and not a cast one. My bet is it's cast as Chrysler went to cast cranks around '74, accept for the motorhome 413's I recall.
The 484-cam will have a nice 'performance-idle', but with 2.72 gears and only 9.2 cr it will probably feel like a dog driving off from a stop. With 284-duration motorvacuum will be low at idle aswell so power brakes (if you have them) won't work that great at lowspeeds. The 509 cam will be too much and would also necessitate a looser stallconvertor and probably also stiffer valvesprings unless you keep the rpms below 6000, which I think you will in a cruiser.
I personally would forget about the purple cams and choose a modern cam with more lift and less duration. With only 9 to 1 compression you don't want a cam that bleeds away even more compression because of it's valve-overlap at low rpm.
I've run a 440 with a Mopar 284-cam in my '67 Newport. With closed chamber '915' heads and 11 to 1 compression ratio because of the zero-deckheight flattop KeithBlack-pistons it made good power but it was at the limit of the stock stallconvertor and also at the verge of pinging sometimes on our 98RON pump gas. Aluminium heads won't be an improvement for you unless you up the compression almost a full point to counter the aluminium's heatdissipation qualities.
Posted 2010-11-06 12:16 PM (#248466 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
Thanks for the inputs, especially about the cams. What I want most is Low RPM torque, the present 400 is sorely missing that alto from reading up on that engine, its actual compression ratio is closer to 7.5 to 1 instead of 8 to one, which still isn't great.
The 440 truck engine does have the cast crank, not the forged one, alto the car will never be run in the quarter mile, I will "ocasionally" leave a stop light with some "Authority", I hope.
I really like the way my 64 runs, with just a trace of lope at idle, but has tremendous torque at low rpm, for those of you that watched the video of stepping on the 64, even after a rolling start, it will break the tires loose it you nail it, then break em loose again when it shifts to 2nd---this is with 323 gears. I don't expect to peal rubber with a 276 rear gear ratio, but still want the "Pull at low RPM".
Posted 2010-11-06 12:32 PM (#248469 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
My engine builder guessed (and actually Misguessed at the duration of the cams), so I looked up "Purple cams"
There are a number of them.
What do you guys think about this one---will it best meet the goals for low rpm torque, with maybe a "Trace of Lope"?
The car has an extremely low stall speed torque converter and I prefer not to mess with it, as I do a lotta of "Around town driving" and I think a higher stall speed would detract from the efficiency of the converter at low engine speeds?
Posted 2010-11-06 2:59 PM (#248475 - in reply to #248469) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 3409 Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George)
Cast crank is ok under 6000 with 400 or so hp, the compression should be right around 9 to 1 for best performance, lower than that with middle range cam you are going to use, will kill the low /mid range torque. Especially with the stock convertor and 2.76 gears.
Posted 2010-11-06 4:32 PM (#248501 - in reply to #248475) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 3782 Location: NorCal
I agree that the cast crank won't be a problem for the intended use but, if the '62 transmission still has the 19-spline input shaft, provisions will have to be made to externally balance the converter or use an externally balanced flexplate.
Purple Shaft cams are old tech, Hughes has modern grinds that will suit your needs.
Posted 2010-11-06 4:33 PM (#248502 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
Thanks Shep, we will be going with about 9.2 to 1 CR. After talking with my friend Aivar's "Wrencher" and reading a ton of info on different web-sites, I am going with the aluminum heads, I'm told they have a lesser capacity towards detonation, The water jackets are isolated from the exaust--so easier to seal, and a 59 Dodge Vert could benefit from a little less weight (ya thinks)?
My engine builder also says He will have a cam custom ground for the type of performance I'm looking for. A small amount of lope at idle, but tons of torque at the bottom end. My typical drive is along city streets, and I have the 272 rear, and torque converter is the standard one so around 1200 stall speed, so I want to run a low idle speed---which I do now, even with the crazy cam I have in the 400, but the car kinda "Rocks and Rolls" so I wanna tame that down a bit too.
Posted 2010-11-06 4:37 PM (#248503 - in reply to #248501) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Beware of Hughes brand cams that "Take advantge" of the Chrysler .900 Lifter with more aggresive lobe ramps....A buddy went through this with them when one ate a Hughes cam within the first 6 months, dude said "Well, your gonna freshen the motor by that time anyway right?"....
You have been warned...Yeah, sure, they will make more power than say a "Purple Shaft", or Comp cam, but how long do you want to have between "Freshens"?
Also have personally had a Lunati "VooDoo" cam shipped to me advertised at .513 lift...When I checked it, it came in at .630 lift...Beware...
Posted 2010-11-06 4:40 PM (#248504 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
Thanks for your inputs on the tranny. Yes as far as I know it has the standard 19 spline input shaft. So we will have to address that too.
Some of you folks have met my engine builder (actually He's my "Total car Guy") as He does it all. He takes care of both of my "Machines".
He is Jon from JMC Performance.
I suggested he read this thread along with dukeboys, so hopefully we don't get any surprises.
One good thing is I can continue to drive and enjoy my vert, until the engine is finished and ready to install,
so I won't be without the car for long---which at my age , is important
Again, Thanks, with your guys help, I think we're getting there!!
Posted 2010-11-06 4:46 PM (#248507 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
Thanks Duke, about the cam, been there, done that with the 64. Had a "Competiton Cam (the name of the company that built it)
That succer went flat in less than 2000 miles, and it was not an "Extreme cam" either, just a lil lope at idle----sorry I don't have
the specs on it, but my engine builder (since gone) did make good on a replacement of a special grind cam, and that one has been
great for several years. Doesn't make your day when a cam goes flat, bent the pushrods, and tons of metal that havta be cleaned
out of the engine---plus several oil changes all within couple hundred miles---just to be sure all that metal floating around was gone!
Posted 2010-11-07 6:56 PM (#248634 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 36 Location: O.C. CALIFORNIA
Hey guys. I like all the comments here. As far as cam spec's and other details,we probably wont be posting them here. However, after we're done, I'm sure Gary will share them with you. That is...IF YOU CAN CATCH HIM!!!haha
Posted 2010-11-08 12:19 PM (#248716 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 23
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I would just go for the Standard old 440 magnum cam. Its all done by 5500rpm, but will work very well with 9.2:1 compression and a stock style head. They have old school slow lobes that will last 100,000 miles, and are gentle on springs. It has enough lope to let you know its there, and since its a stock cam, a stock converter is no issue. It has a very wide LSA so it has lots of vacumn for power accessories. Its hard to beat for simple reliability with decent performance - this cam makes great low end torque.
Another good cam would be the Comp Xtreme 268 - I believe the grind number is XE268. Its basically a modern interpretation of the old 440 magnum cam and is about 25hp better. It has a little less vacumn but still works fine with stock converter. This should be another good torquey cam.
Comp also makes a high lift series that takes advantage of the mopars large lifter with a much higher rate of lift, but you better have a good valvetrain. Unless you are swapping rocker arms to aftermarket, you are going to be limited to around .500 lift. The stamped ones start giving up around .520 lift. Stock and mildly ported mopar heads typically are all done by .550 lift, so there really is no need for a extremely aggressive cam unless you go for aftermarket heads (or seriously ported 906/915 heads done by someone who knows how to rework the short turn) that flow at high lifts. These fast rate of lift cams really slam the valve down on the seat and are hard of the valvetrain. Hughes, the Lunati Voodoo series are also high rate of lift cams and are hard on the valvetrain.
With a good set of mildly worked 906 heads, a good intake, and headers, i would assume around 440hp with the XE268 cam, and just over 400 with the stock magnum. I would not go larger than this cam due to your low stall converter, heavy car, and tall gears.
Posted 2010-11-08 3:41 PM (#248740 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
Thanks for the cam info Rick. We will be going with aluminum "Closed heads" possibly Edelbrock or a very similar head.
Since we are going with aluminum heads, Im told we can probably go slightly higher with the compression ratio, maybe about
9.5 to 1, instead of the 9.2 to 1, and shouldn't have any detonation problems. I am hoping to run 87 octane, but I would go
to 89 if absolutely necessary. The 413 in my 64 does very nicely on 89 octane with 34 degrees ignition advance and not the slightest
hint of pinging, and it has iron heads (I think) I better go get a magnet???
Anyway, knowing what you do know about the head and compression we are gonna use, would that affect your cam choices any?
As mentioned, bottom end torque is the main objective, and maybe "Just a little lope at idle" to "Keep those Chebbies Honest"
Thanks for your inputs, hopefully this engine will be "Designed by the Forward Look"!!!!!
Posted 2010-11-08 3:58 PM (#248745 - in reply to #248503) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 3782 Location: NorCal
dukeboy - 2010-11-06 1:37 PM
Beware of Hughes brand cams that "Take advantge" of the Chrysler .900 Lifter with more aggresive lobe ramps....A buddy went through this with them when one ate a Hughes cam within the first 6 months,
You'll hear similar anecdotal tales about every brand cam under the sun. Too many variables to blame the cam grinder, I've got two Hughes cams in service.
Posted 2010-11-09 12:18 AM (#248824 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 36 Location: O.C. CALIFORNIA
99% of all flat cams,are not to blame for going flat. usually valve train or oiling system problems are to blame...However, sometimes you just get a bad one. They all come from the same to two places anyways, no matter who's name is on it.
That being said...I got a bad Comp. cam once.
Posted 2010-11-09 12:00 PM (#248852 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 23
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
If you are going with aluminum heads, go up to about 10.5:1 compression. Modern chambers and the aluminum make them much less detonation prone. The best aftermarket street heads for HP are probably the smaller Indy's like the SR's, or 440-1's. The Brodix B1-BS are real nice also.
Edelbrocks really are not that great - a good set of ported stock heads flow quite a bit better than an out of the box Edelbrock. If you are going to get the eddies ported, you might as well spend the extra money up front to get a better head that flows where you want it, then you have the ability to port them in the future if you need more flow. Mopar Performance Stage heads like the Stage VI were designed from the get-go to be ported, so they have dissapointing flow out of the box, but someone who knows what they are doing can really get them to flow.
The 440Source heads are the only ones that look stock but I have heard that they have an odd chamber shape that allows the head gaskets fire ring to hang into the chamber, but I have not actually had a set in my hands to inspect. If this is true, head gaskets will be a problem.
I have never had a cam go flat, but I am anal about startup with a flat tappet cam. A friend of mine has had cams from every grinder go flat, even the same grinds. Keeping a flat tappet alive during breakin is more about taking care and prep work than anything else. Agressive cams really require everything to be perfect durng break in because of valvetrain velocities and spring pressures. I usually remove the inner springs on a dual valve spring a real nasty flat tappet cam break in, as well as using 1.5 rockers. Put the higher ratio rockers on after breakin.
If you are going with aftermarket aluminum heads, I would step up the cam also. They flow well at higher lifts and can take advange of the Comp HL lobes, as well as something like the Hughes cams much better than a stock head.
Posted 2010-11-09 12:24 PM (#248857 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 1506 Location: Colo Spgs
Hello There
I am kinda with Rick on getting a "ole school" MoPar Cam shaft. The OEM unit
sold by NAPA is # CS-327. It has the "tomato sauce" at where you drive at.
If you have a 400 now all of this can be used with the 400. Or you can use the
80 pound heavier 440 with the same items.
Why not keep the Heads and just match port the In-take to the Heads and the
Heads to the Exhaust Manifolds .
Posted 2010-11-09 1:54 PM (#248872 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
Thanks for the inputs, Rick & Rodger. I intend to run the eddys straight out of the box. My goal is about 1hp,cu/in.
with an .030 overboar of the 440 that should give us about 446 inches?, so anything around 450HP and torque in the 500 ft/lbs will be plenty for this ol guy. My 64 ,413 dynoed at 350 hp and 435 ft/lbs of torque and even with the 323 sure grip, it will smoke the tires and smoke em again when the TF shifts to 2nd. (kinda makes me wonder about the 350 hp number)?
I intend to leave the 272, road runner limited slip rear end in the 59, as I want it more as a "Highway Cruiser",
It does that well now, and I like the gearing in it better than the 64 on freeway trips. The only thing is, the 400 is
a "real dog" rite now, till I get a few rpm's up, then she will take off. So what I am trying to do is design a
"Nicely balanced machine", It will still leave a stop light with some authority, as the 64 does, yet remain a comfortable quiet cruiser on the freeway.
I went over to see Jon, the engine builder this AM.
Here is where we are so far:
77 440 block, it will be bored .030
we will use its cast crank it will be heat treated and the usual checks made.
We will use the rods from the 440 block, they will be shotpeened and hardened.
We will use the Edelbrock completely assembled heads (right out of the box)(60929)
we will go with the KB pistons (those lite weight ones) and end up with a CR of about 9.8 to 1.
We are looking at the lunatic (vodoo) cams, we were shooting for 112 center but unless I'm
willing to use a comp cam (recall I have seen the "remains" of one that went flat in my 64 Dodge)sooooo
may have to go to a 110 center if I decide to go with the Voodoo, we are going for a lift of
about 500, (I will have more cam details later as Jon is gonna email me some of the options.)
Thanks for your inputs on the Pistons, Duke. I had run TRW's forged (Non thermally slotted) pistons
in the original 426 engine in the 64 Dodge. It sounded like a diesel, even when warmed up, now it
could be the idiot undersized them???? never did have any problems with them thou, even thou that
engine was prone to detonation on 91 gas. As you know, I want really KWIK throttle response, so
that is why I'm going with the lighter pistons and I never will run the car down the dragstrip or run No2
etc etc, so I think (Hope) we made a good choice here.
Anyway , thanks again everybody, and we will have more details as they come in!
Posted 2010-11-10 10:59 AM (#249003 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 23
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
If you are only looking at 1hp/ci, then save your money on the edelbrock heads. Also, don't bother with the hypereutectic pistons - they are junk. This is one place you don't want to save money. Get a good forged piston - Wiseco, Probe, and Ross all make good ones that are reasonably priced.
Take the stock heads (for a 77' 440 they should be 452's) and template port them, add new valves and good single valve springs like the MP 249's. Valve sizes can remain stock. Run six pack forged pistons or similar to get compression around 10:1, and then run the MP484 hydralic cam or similar. This is an easy 1hp/ci combo. Just make sure you add the hemi oil pickup, high volume pump, and hardended oil pump driveshaft. Step up to the MP 509 cam and its the default 500hp combo.
Posted 2010-11-10 3:30 PM (#249026 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
Yep, Rick knows his stuff.
I'm going with the AL heads because they have a far less tendency to create detonation, (recall one of my goals is to run 87 octane), and still run enough advance so we don't kill the power or the mileage.
We are detuning the cam, a bit as we dont wanna be much over 450HP and 500 ft/lbs of torque.
We dont wanna start snapping drive shafts or blow the rear end out of that 272.
If I were a serious racer, I would have Rick build my engine for sure, Well maybe both him and
Duke (I hope they get along( LOL)
Here is a "Mopar Site" that shows where an engine was built, pretty much the way we are building this one, but we well step down a bit on the cam.
Posted 2010-11-10 4:34 PM (#249028 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 36 Location: O.C. CALIFORNIA
500 horse is o.k. I'm just finnishing my 440 non-strocked,pump gas, daily driver, for my 57... It dynoed at 800 horse...is that enough power for ya?
No Blower,no nitrus.
Posted 2010-11-10 6:23 PM (#249037 - in reply to #249028) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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JMCPERFORMANCE - 2010-11-10 4:34 PM
500 horse is o.k. I'm just finnishing my 440 non-strocked,pump gas, daily driver, for my 57... It dynoed at 800 horse...is that enough power for ya?
No Blower,no nitrus.
Hmmmmm would have to see that one...Been trying to do that for years and nobody's found a way to keep from running race gas and eating valvetrain parts like candy yet to make that kinda power...
Posted 2010-11-10 6:25 PM (#249038 - in reply to #249037) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 2679
dukeboy - 2010-11-10 6:23 PM
JMCPERFORMANCE - 2010-11-10 4:34 PM
500 horse is o.k. I'm just finnishing my 440 non-strocked,pump gas, daily driver, for my 57... It dynoed at 800 horse...is that enough power for ya?
No Blower,no nitrus.
Hmmmmm would have to see that one...Been trying to do that for years and nobody's found a way around that race gas yet to make that kinda power...
Posted 2010-11-10 6:29 PM (#249039 - in reply to #249038) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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59CRL - 2010-11-10 6:25 PM
dukeboy - 2010-11-10 6:23 PM
JMCPERFORMANCE - 2010-11-10 4:34 PM
500 horse is o.k. I'm just finnishing my 440 non-strocked,pump gas, daily driver, for my 57... It dynoed at 800 horse...is that enough power for ya?
No Blower,no nitrus.
Hmmmmm would have to see that one...Been trying to do that for years and nobody's found a way around that race gas yet to make that kinda power...
Cant run pump gas and make 800HP..... period.
Oh those "Pump gas" Engine Challenge Engines made right around 750 HP and ran on pump gas, but they had ALOT of exotic parts that wouldn't be "Daily Driven" material at best...
Wait a minute Greg, you forget so soon??? There was that one 413 that was good for over 1000 Ft. Lbs of torque..Remember???
Posted 2010-11-10 6:35 PM (#249041 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Gary, sure, you COULD rebuild your stock heads, but here's the thing....Spend $1000 In machine work and valves, springs, retainers and locks, OR spend $1400.00 and get all new heads that will take about a point higher in compression ratio with less chance of detonation
Posted 2010-11-10 6:52 PM (#249045 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 36 Location: O.C. CALIFORNIA
I will gladly post the dyno sheet for all you skeptics. This is the third and most powerful we've done over 750. And actually I was wrong on the horse. It was 796, not 800, sorry. Doing a little re-adjusting to the valvetrain and some carb changes then we will run it again. Maybe we can video it this time and post that. Give me a month or so, we have a couple customer engines to finish first. Oh... and this is not magic, and I am not the only one with some of these engines.
Also, I drive my 67 to work most every day, and it dynoed 700 w/ 750 torque. on 91 octane.
Posted 2010-11-10 7:06 PM (#249049 - in reply to #249047) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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A cost breakdown, as well as parts breakdown would be nice as well...I mean anybody with enough money thrown at an engine will make power, but That's not what this thread is about..It's about cheap power and relliablity for the street...
Posted 2010-11-10 7:39 PM (#249057 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
We think the same way about heads, Duke, that is why we went with the aluminum heads. We will have a much better chance of running 87 on that , than if we used iron heads. I wished I had known you guys and Jon when I built the 413 for the 64. I just bought the motor , had it shipped to the engine shop (Not Jon)
(didn't know him back then), had them install it in the car and paid and drove off
I did get lucky, (with the exception of the bad cam) it has proven pretty reliable , runs well
on 89@34 degees advance, and at least to me, has plenty of power.
So I got lucky.
This time, for the 59, We will all know what's in that motor and even with the 276 gears, it might make my 64 with the 323 gears nervous, Ya thinks??
Thanks again PPL
I cant want till the engine is together and we Dyno it, or better yet in the car and the "Pedal to the Metal"
(Ya know what I mean)? Should be the fastest 59 Dodge around,
Posted 2010-11-10 8:04 PM (#249063 - in reply to #249057) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Gary, all you can do is take all the opinions here and stir well and hope like hell your guy knows what the hell he's doing cause here for every one opinion trying to steer you down the correct path, there's one trying to contradict everything that has been said thus far. This is why asking about HP on an open forum or anything for that matter is a crap shoot at best because of the differences in opinions....Bout the only way you will know what works FOR SURE, is good 'ol trial and error....Kinda like asking a cop about the law and asking a different cop the same question you get two totally different replies...Know wadda mean? Good luck, and i can only hope I have steered you down the correct path and that 'ol 440 makes you "Nervous" when you hit the loud pedal...
Posted 2010-11-10 10:17 PM (#249078 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
yep John, it will be, In fact I suspect Jon will have it done before Christmas.
That's the one good thing about building a different engine for the car, I can
continue to drive and enjoy the car till She's ready for the "Transplant"
I sure hopes she "Pulls thru"
Look forward to seeing you there John, (Bring your Vert) and tell Mike to bring
that Desoto Convertible!!!! I hope some of our other folks here
can make the Spring Fling, None of us are getting any younger (right)?
Aivar will most likely bring a "Surprise" too
I did tell Jon not to make my 59 too fast,
Aivar is a good friend and I don't want my 59
"beatin up" on his "New Baby"
For our Freezin friends in Sweden, Norway, and other parts of Europe,
We will video the 440 when She "Springs to life" and then take you guys
with us for a test drive, (Courtesy UTube)
Posted 2010-11-10 10:53 PM (#249087 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Member
Posts: 23
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Remember - detonation is when cylinder pressure and heat cause the fuel to self ignite.
Higher compression + short duration cam - lots of cylinder pressure. Don't forget load on the motor from the heavy car with a super tall gear. A larger cam is more low octane friendly than a smaller one due to overlap which decreases cranking pressure.
Aluminum heads draw a lot of heat out due to their high thermal conductivity, which allows a little more cylinder pressure before the fuel auto ignites. I am currently running an 11.2:1 compression 450ci low deck mopar with mildly ported 452 heads, the old mopar 509 cam (its all the lift the pistons would allow without machining them) that runs fine on 91 octane at 34 degrees of timing. If I backed the timing off to around 30 or 32, I would probably be fine on 87 octane and still make right around 500hp.
If you really want to work on higher compression with a short cam on 87 octane, try ceramic coating the exhaust port, piston head and chambers. It reflects heat, making the surface cooler and less prone to start detonation. Run the engine between 165-180 degrees, and really isolate the fuel system from heat. A cold air intake helps also. Then its really working the timing curve and total timing. Mopars usually tend to detonation worst in the midrange - so a slow curve with alots of initial to make the car jump at low rpm is the trick. Start at around 32 degrees total with the vacumn advance disconnected. Headers and an efficent exhaust also really make a difference in octane tolerance.
And hypereutectic pistons are the biggest sham in the performance market - a cheaper material than straight cast pistons, that come out of the mold much closer to final dimentions so less machine work is needed, with next to zero ductility. Give them a fancy heat treat and tell everyone they are the greatest thing going. Their high silicon material holds more heat causing the rings to expand more - requiring better or thicker rings. There is a reason most aftermarket hyper pistons come with old school 5/64" rings - the greater surface area of the ring is needed to cool them! Their failure mode is to shatter like glass! I have seen more motors ruined by those crap pistons, where a cheap forged would have been fine, and a old style cast probably would have just pinched a ring or got a ding in it. There is a reason the OEM's like to put them in everything - they are cheap! In my opinion, they have to place in a performance motor.
But what do I know, I am just a guy on the internet.
Posted 2010-11-10 11:19 PM (#249091 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
Thanks for the input Rick. I have been doing a tremendous amount of studying on these.
Advantages I see that they are light, and some claim the engine therefore rev's faster.
I have seen where some have failed, usually it is claimed it was due to the ring gap on
the top ring, not being gapped correctly. As that ring is higher on the KB pistons
(supposedly to scavenge oil more efectively (you know the smog thing), the ring will
run hotter and hence needs more gap.
Many builders like this piston (ya know from that thread I posted the URL from).
Really is a tuff call
The pistons in my 64 are nice and quiet, no idea what they are but I doubt they Hypers.
I kinda had a bad taste for the forged, since the original 426 engine, I had put
TRW, non thermally slotted pistons in it and "John Deer" would have loved the noise
they made, even when hot, but course that could have been the builders fault -- too
much clearance or whatever? Like I said, whatever pistons are in the 64 now are
great.
I'm not buying the pistons to save money (or I would not have sprung for the AL Heads).
I thought they might have a performance advantage due to their lighter weight??
Again, thanks for the post. I go back and read some more, like I said, "Tuff Call"
Congradulations on the great build on your engine!!!!
Posted 2010-11-11 1:05 AM (#249104 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119 Location: STL, MO
This is a good thread. Welcome to Rick and Jon. Pencil me in as someone who would like to see the 796hp 440 build, if you'll be good enough to share with us, Jon.
Posted 2010-11-11 10:55 AM (#249136 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Member
Posts: 23
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TRW forged pistons are generally stock replacement pistons which make them extremely heavy compared to a modern forged piston. Most of the pistons for the less common engines are also 30+ year old designs. A modern forged piston can be made lighter because of the higher strength of the material. But honestly, the factory pistons are so heavy (about 860 grams with a 220 gram pin) that most any modern forged piston is several hundred grams lighter, and the pins weigh haf as much.
Ring gaps butting on a piston from being improperly gapped should not make a piston shatter into metallic gravel - which is what hypers do. If there is inadequet ring gap, the rings should butt and score the cylinder walls before the pistons shatter, since the rings do not suddenly grow, but expand more slowly, and there should be cylinder wall damage before the pistons failed. I have only seen one motor that had the cylinder wall marked up from the rings butting, and it actually pulled the top of the cast piston off (40 over rings on 30 over pistons). The motor was bored, new pistons installed and its probably still running.
I have a box of KB hypers from a 351w ford that are covered with a spiderweb of cracks - the owner detonated the engine bad when he got bad fuel - and the 7 pistons I have are all cracked. One is in about three pieces - thats how it came out of the motor as the only thing holding it together was the rings. The 8th one was in the oil pan. With no piston, the connecting rod knocked a hole in the block, manged to fold itself in half and completely destroy the shortblock. Luckily the heads survived.
Posted 2010-11-11 11:32 AM (#249143 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 36 Location: O.C. CALIFORNIA
I feel that this post is getting a little mean spirited and competitive. For that, I apologize. I should be talking about how excited Gary is to be involved in this build. Congrats Gary! I can't wait to see the smile on your face when you drive it down the road.
Posted 2010-11-11 1:54 PM (#249163 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 23
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I don't think its getting mean spirited. I would like to hear your combo - I think with the right heads, a stock stroke motor could go 800hp on pump gas. About 10-15 years ago, either Muscle Motors or Mcandless used to sell a 500ci bracket motor that did 800hp with just
I am thinking of building a junker 450 from the cast off parts I have laying around and seeing if it will go 450hp using as many factory mopar parts as possible. I think I might need to step up the cam a bit...
Posted 2010-11-11 2:49 PM (#249171 - in reply to #249163) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Anythying CAN be done with enough money....Again, this thread isn't about spending huge money on a stock stroke. 800 HP, 9500 RPM, .950 Lft, 300 @ .050 Cammed, $25K 440...Post the numbers AND the parts specs on the motor, as That's ALOT of power on a daily driven engine on pump gas with IRON heads as the Eddy's seem to be junk these days....I'm the biggest proprieter of the 440 there is, but even I know better than to spit out something like an 800 HP 440 with NO power adder....
Posted 2010-11-11 3:07 PM (#249172 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119 Location: STL, MO
I remember Bob Lambeck or Jim Hale having 500 ci 500hp motors w/iron heads but 800 hp inline valve B motors? Stock dim.?Without N20? Maybe Wayne County?
Posted 2010-11-11 4:02 PM (#249179 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
Duke's right. I started out , designing with Jon (I told what I wanted, "performance wise) and He told me what I needed.
That was "Plan A" and we could have done it (Installed for around 4 grand), and probably still done around 450HP & 500 FT/lbs or torque.
As this is probably the last engine I will need, I decided to "Kick it up a notch" not necessairly power wise.
As I drive the car every day, and owe to the fact of the 272 gears, factory AC and a lotta "street driving"
as well as driving in parades 3 to 5 mph and a lotta stops; We decided to go with "Plan B".
From everything that I have read, (and a lot), The aluminum heads have a much lesser tendency to detonate,
given a set CR, cam spec's etc etc.
I've read a ton of info on the BK pistons, You can set them up for a tigher fit than conventional pistons as the
thermal expansions is less than a conventional piston. They should be very quiet, and as long as we watch
the top ring gap , and we don't invite detonation by too agressive timing or bad curve, they should last a
long time. As the top of the piston stays hotter, this results in better combustion
(some of the charge is not wasted heating the piston top.) Many other advantages but there are many sites
(Including Mopar sites) where you can read about this.)
I decided to go "Upscale" with the ignition---again because of the amount of super low speed driving I do, soooo
we are going with MSD.
We decided since we were spending the money on the heads, etc, we might as well "Exaust the engine Right",
so we will be adding some "Non Intrusive" headers, I still want the engine to look "Reasonable stock", not like
I have a "Killer Motor" in there.
We also decided to replace the intake manifold, not positive the old one would fit without some "Kludeging" and
that manifold was made to run the dual 4 barrels simultaneously, had heat crossover (Which I did block) and
I do run the carbs sequentially now, but i'm sure the new intake manifold which is set up for dual 4's
should do a lot better, don't you?
We will send out the AC compressor to be resealed, as long as it is out of the car anyway.
So This is where we are at now, and needless to say, it will cost more than "Plan A" but
I think it will be worth it? How bout you?
Again thanks for all the posts here, and I hope what we are doing is something that fits your post
Duke----at least we can compare modified stock heads to the aluminum ones.
Posted 2010-11-11 5:02 PM (#249188 - in reply to #249087) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 3782 Location: NorCal
RacerRick - 2010-11-10 7:53 PM
And hypereutectic pistons are the biggest sham in the performance market - a cheaper material than straight cast pistons, that come out of the mold much closer to final dimentions so less machine work is needed, with next to zero ductility. Give them a fancy heat treat and tell everyone they are the greatest thing going. In my opinion, they have to place in a performance motor.
Nobody is claiming they're "the greatest thing going", everything has it's proper place.
Did you read the OP? He's not interested in building a world-beating motor, just a nice street loper. Calling anything "junk" without taking into consideration it's end use isn't serving any good purpose.
Posted 2010-11-12 7:34 AM (#249259 - in reply to #249188) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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IMO, the whole purpose of the Eddy performer heads is so there's an out of the box head that flows as good or better than the best iron head fully race ported and larger valves installed...
This is for ease of buying/building heads and making good power...Of course, there's always someone like myself and others that will always try to do the impossible and make that 750 HP with iron heads no matter how mnay say it can't be done...
For the $700.00 I spent on the iron heads that were already worked, I couldn't go wrong...However, I use to think things like Turbo's, Strokers, Aluminum heads, etc. was considered "race car" stuff...Today however, these things are becoming more and more cost effective to purchase by the typical street guy....
Please post the numbers if you have 'em Gary, As I'd be curious to know what your build makes power wise..I may just be in the market to build a replica of your motor for my own car....
Posted 2010-11-12 9:09 AM (#249264 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
The engine block should be back from the machine shop today (Friday), Duke
Here's a few detail of what we did to it.
(1) Bore .030 over an hone block with plate.
(2) Install cam bearings.
(3) Turn the crankshaft (The 77 cast iron one).
(4) Heat treat crankshaft.
(5) Hang and align pistons.
(6) Balance rotating assembly.
(7) Re-size Rod ends
(8) Deck block (Sorry I don't know how much).
(9) Line Hone Block.
(Course there will be more as the engine goes together.
Here's some of the parts:
(1) 77 440 Truck Block
(2) Edelbrock Performer RPM Aluminum Heads (Complete with Valves, springs, etc) 2.14 intake, 1.81 exaust (60929).
(3) Edelbrock Dual Quad Progressive Intake Manifold.
(4) Cloyes True Roller Timing Set.
(5) K.B. Hyper Piston Set.
(6) ARP Rod Bolt Set.
(7) Bearings, (Rod, Main, Cam etc).
(8) Special Grind Cam with 112 center , not sure about final duration or lift yet, but we went with 112 for "Good low end".
(9) High Volume Oil Pump.
(10) We will be running the Edelbrock 1405 & 1406 Carbs from the 400 I have now.
(11) MSD Ignition
(12) Hi Torque starter from the 400 (IDI)
(13) Headers (Not sure of final design yet) Jon check for clearances yesterday, for the headers.
(14) 7 blade Mopar fan with clutch.
(15) We will use the (almost new) 3 core radiator in the car now (Copper).
More Details as they become available.
Non Engine items.
I will remove the clock (I will keep it) but we will install a tach where the clock is now (I found a "Nifty" one that pretty well matches the other gauges).
I will replace the dash light bulbs with LED's probably white, cept for the turn signal indicators (Probably use green there). High beam indicator will be a red LED.
(I did this to my 64 many years ago, cept I used blue, with yellow led's for turn signals (Maybe 10 years ago and I have never had an led burn out).
Anyway, that's it for now. We will invite ya all to the Dyno shop (Courtesy my Hi-def video camera and Utube) when The motor is ready to run, the first time!!!!!!
Posted 2010-11-15 1:04 PM (#249618 - in reply to #249188) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 23
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
57chizler - 2010-11-11 5:02 PM
Nobody is claiming they're "the greatest thing going", everything has it's proper place.
Did you read the OP? He's not interested in building a world-beating motor, just a nice street loper. Calling anything "junk" without taking into consideration it's end use isn't serving any good purpose.
I did read the original poster. Did you even read my post? You seem to have missed where I explained why I believe hypereutectic pistons have no place in a performance motor. It seems with aluminum heads, high compression, MSD ignition, etc - the OP is building a performance motor. The proper place for these pistons are stock applications where detonation can be easily dispelled (computer controlled ignition via a knock sensor) - where they work fine. This is not one of those applications.
The failure mode for these pistons is they shatter because they have zero ductility. Now the original poster was saying to put them into a relatively high compression motor with short cam timing in a heavy car with highway gears. This is a recipe for detonation - which is exactly what hypereutectic pistons have no tolerance for. All it would take is one bad tank of gas, or one bad tuning day and he is replacing the motor. For an extra few hundred dollars for a decent set of forged pistons, he has much stronger shortblock that shrug off detonation, and if we wants to step it up in the future powerwise, the bottom end will not be a limiting factor.
I already made my arguments on why I feel these pistons are inferior to standard cast piston, and why they OEM's like them so much (cost). You don't even seem to have an argument...
Posted 2010-11-15 1:18 PM (#249620 - in reply to #249264) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
1959Dodge - 2010-11-12 9:09 AM
The engine block should be back from the machine shop today (Friday), Duke
Here's a few detail of what we did to it.
(4) Heat treat crankshaft.
(8) Deck block (Sorry I don't know how much).
(9) Line Hone Block.
You can skip the head treat on the crank (its probably meloniting) at this power level. Plus the heat treat can cost almost as much as just picking a factory forged crank that needs turning. Also be aware that a lot of heat treats warp the crankshaft and it should be at least checked for straightless after the head treat. If they have to straighten the crank, its always fun to watch them do it.
When you get the block decked - make sure they square deck the block which equalizes the deck height across the block, and set it to blueprint height. Mopar blocks are usually taller than blueprint by quite a bit and always need decking for a well designed quench motor.
You only need to line hone the block if you are studding the mains, or if there has been cap movement previously due to load (heavy detonation, or high RPM). The studs can locate the caps slightly differently and might need a touch up.
Are you getting a custom grind cam from one of the big cam grinders or a local guy. Be aware that most smaller shops use chevy lobes on their masters since they can be used in any engine.
Posted 2010-11-15 4:33 PM (#249637 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Thanks for the inputs, Rick. I myself, am not an engine builder, (that's what I got Jon for), but I do wanna be involved in this one, as I haven't the "Foggiest Notion" what cam, pistons (except I didn't want forged) are in my
64 Dodge's 413 that I had built. It does run great on 89 @34 degrees advance (not the slightest hint of pinging) and one time I "screwed up" and put 87 in it (as I'm used to filling the 59). It had maybe half a tank of 89 in it and still it did not ping. Soooo even thou I wasn't involved in the rebuild of that one, (and except for a cam going flat), it has been trouble free, uses no oil and is nice and quiet. I , as I mentioned, had TRW forged racing pistons in the 64's original 426, and I always hated the sound they made(even when warmed up). A friend of mine is building a
"Monster Engine" for street use, the builder put in forged pistons, a Mack truck sounded "quiet" by comparison, so my friend had to spend more money getting rid of the forged pistons, as again the car will be a "Nasty Street Machine" and seen at car shows, so "at least to us", part of "Our definition" of quality is not only an engine that performs well, but is relatively quiet too---(Just our preferences).
I spent days (literally) reading every article I could find on the Hyper pistons and most are very positive.
Yes the top ring has to be gapped right, and yes, you want to avoid detonation---I always had to do that with the
original 426 as even with 9.3 CR (or so the builder said), it didn't like 91 octane gas, but I know enough to back off
the pedal if I heard pinging---Apparently the guy in the Ferd, did not????
Anyway, Jon has built about 200 engines, and half of those have the Hyper pistons, and none have been a problem.
Jon knows a cam grinder, so Jon drew up the specs on the cam, and we will see how She runs.
Again thanks for the inputs, We just have different goals for our engines, Yours sounds like a great and econ build!
Posted 2010-11-15 6:42 PM (#249648 - in reply to #249618) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 3782 Location: NorCal
RacerRick - 2010-11-15 10:04 AM
I did read the original poster. Did you even read my post? You seem to have missed where I explained why I believe hypereutectic pistons have no place in a performance motor. It seems with aluminum heads, high compression, MSD ignition, etc - the OP is building a performance motor. The proper place for these pistons are stock applications where detonation can be easily dispelled (computer controlled ignition via a knock sensor) - where they work fine. This is not one of those applications.
Your opinion, not shared by all. The intended motor is pretty tame by comparison and you seem to think that the combo is doomed to suffer from detonation...not necessarily so. High mechanical compression ratios with aluminum heads aren't the same as high mechanical ratios with iron heads but, of course, you know that....it's all about quench and heat dissipation.
I already made my arguments on why I feel these pistons are inferior to standard cast piston, and why they OEM's like them so much (cost). You don't even seem to have an argument...
My argument is simple, you have set yourself as the all-knowing guru by calling a popular product "junk", your sole argument being a failure is possible "IF" a certain set of circumstances occur....kinda like saying a light bulb will break "IF" you drop it. Ever seen a high-buck custom forged piston with a hole burned in the top or sagged ring lands "WHEN" things go awry?
It's up to the engine builder to make sure the parts in the build are compatible with the intended use.
Posted 2010-11-15 9:50 PM (#249676 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 36 Location: O.C. CALIFORNIA
57chizler. I like your thought process. I used to build the bottom end on a funny car team a couple years ago. I know how to make a car run under 5 seconds in the quarter and not blow up. I also know how to make an engine tow trailers for 1 million miles...and I know the difference between the two. Never say never, and never say always.
Posted 2010-11-15 11:55 PM (#249690 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 23
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
ok, so you still have not made one valid argument based in facts about what I have said, and instead am attacking me personally. Your own argument can just as easily be used against you - detonation is pretty easy to get, especially when you are wanting to run 87 octane fuel as the OP said.
Just look of any one of a number of engineering papers, or look at a casting materials sheet where A390 (KB's preferred alloy) is common.
Want to have a bit of a chuckle? Do you know what the alloy 390 was developed for? The Vega's aluminum engine block.
Posted 2010-11-16 12:24 AM (#249691 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 36 Location: O.C. CALIFORNIA
Ok,valid argument... I choose to base my opinion on real life experience. In that, I've used this combo in many similar situations to this. several of wich, have already gone over 200,000mi. Don't forget, the hemi head was designed by a couple different european car companies for their three and four cylinders,for fuel economy. does that make the hemi head a bad design? chuckle,chuckle. Don't worry, we dont send cars out the door that ping...even on "bad"gas. I've seen oil pans full of forged pistons from pinging. That is like basing your bearing choice on how long they last with no oil in the engine, or will my pistons hold up with a gas tank full of sugar, or if gravity ceases to exist. Detonation is not all that easy to achieve,If you tune it right. I dont want any engine I build pinging, i know your with me on that.
Posted 2010-11-17 5:10 PM (#249930 - in reply to #249691) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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JMCPERFORMANCE - 2010-11-15 9:24 PM
Ok,valid argument... I choose to base my opinion on real life experience.
So do I but our opponent wants to argue Physics 101 theory. Like so many other products that are labled "junk" by naysayers, the simple fact that the highways aren't littered with hypereutectic pieces doesn't matter to them, they pick a couple of isolated instancesand run with it.
Posted 2010-11-17 6:28 PM (#249938 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
Things are "Moving along", parts coming in, etc. Next thing in line is the exaust system. I've been doing a lotta "Boning up" on factory manifolds, shortie headers and long headers.
Keeping in mind the goal of a "Street driver with attitude" (IE instant gratification when ya mash the pedal)
what has been your experiences with this "Exausting Situation".
Do you have a fav manufacturer, what headers would be easiest to install and still do the job?
(Obviously one can not look up "recommended headers for a 59 Dodge with a 440 in it".
Posted 2010-11-17 7:42 PM (#249946 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
Boy Do they WORK!!!! What rear end ratio you running in that?
Impressive to say the Least.
I read where shortie headers suppossedly not great for low RPM, but sooooo much for that "Theory"
Posted 2010-11-18 5:13 AM (#249987 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 3575 Location: Netherlands
Well, I must admit the 500cubic inches and a set of longram intakes under the hood might help a bit aswell here...
The longrams aren't really designed for high rpm operation so the shortie headers work ok for me I guess. Next to that the 2.5" dual exhaust system has conventional 'pushed in' bends, which means the pipes are only about 2" in the bends. There's still plenty of room for improvement on my complete setup and I'm sure the car will smoke the tires even better/longer through the gears if I were to address these 'bottlenecks'.
The gears in de the rear are stock 3.23:1 with a suregrip unit. With enough cubic inches you don't need more gear to get going.
Torque is what you want in a streetmotor, not HP.
Posted 2010-11-18 7:00 AM (#249991 - in reply to #249987) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Shortie headers on a basic 450-500 HP 440....Yeah, they seem to work pretty good..This was with a 3.23 Sure Grip and a 727 torquelfilte.
like I said before, you won't be disappointed with the 440...Now if we's messin' with a poly? well, you might have some regrets about spending money to gain HP, but with the 440, you could simply swap the cam,intake,heads and see 450 HP EASY...
Posted 2010-11-18 9:55 AM (#250016 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
That car runs great, Dukeboy, thanks for the "Inspiration"
I am leaning towards the TTI long ceramic coated headers.
They are Mopar guys and they are in the next city East of me
so If we run into problems, they are close by.
I doubt we will with Jon working on the car , so we will
take pictures of the assembled engine to make sure we
wont have starter clearance problems , or other nasty "Surprises"
The headers are expensive, but I guess no "cents" in "cuttin' corners" Here
Posted 2010-11-18 9:38 PM (#250087 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Gary, I think you'll find the long tube headers WILL NOT FIT your cars chassis....This is why we all are running the shorties...I made a set of long tube headers for Christine, but they weren't practical when it came time to install in the car. The T-Bars are in the way big time....There are currently NO MANUFACTURERS making long tube headers for these cars with a big Block Chrysler...
Posted 2010-11-18 10:13 PM (#250092 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
Thanks for that Dukeboy, We will either take a lotta pictures of the car as the engine and exaust sits in it now, or since the Company, TTI is only about 10 miles away from Yorba Linda, (Corona), I might drive the car over there, one suspects if they want the sale, they might find a way, if they do, I will certainly pass on the info to you.
I'm surprised they are able to get them in cars like my 64 as well as some of the "B Bodies" as those have tortion bars too.
Well if they don't fit, that will save me some money!!!!
Posted 2010-11-19 5:32 AM (#250120 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 3575 Location: Netherlands
On all the 'Junior'-Mopars (A-B-E bodies ) the exhaust exits 'inside' the torsion-bars. On fullsize and earlier Mopars, the exhaust needs to exit 'outside' the T-bars, between the frame-rails.
That's the biggest problem when it comes to headers.
I'm sure TTI would like to make/sell you a pair of headers, as long as you pay for it, preferably through the nose!
Posted 2010-11-19 9:13 PM (#250229 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
We will pass on that for $1500, that's for sure.
Any of you guys have opinions of hydraulic Roller rockers
using a non roller cam. I finds all kind of conflicting data,
seems like a little extra insurance to make sure a cam doesn't
go flat, but I have read some horror stories about them too,
where they lost their retainers and turned sideways and ate
up a cam.
Just Curious
Posted 2010-11-20 5:54 AM (#250251 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Posts: 3575 Location: Netherlands
There are adjustable, and non-adjustable rockers. The non-adjustables always go on 'hydraulic' cams. The adjustable rockers can go on both 'solid/mechanical' and hydraulic cams.
Then there's the lifters, which are either flattappet or with a roller-wheel.
Flattappet lifters come in the hydraulic and solid-variety. Roller lifters also come as hydraulic and solids.
You cannot put roller lifters on a 'normal' hydraulic or solid, flatttappet designed cam, as the lobes on these cams have a slight taper to aid in flattappet lifter rotation. This taper would load a roller-lifter wheel more on one side than the other which would shorten it's life considerably.
You need an actual 'roller' cam before you can use roller-lifters.
Posted 2010-11-20 8:00 AM (#250253 - in reply to #250251) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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Roller cams offer huge power gains over their flat tappet counterparts, but at the expense of the valve train, and your wallet...Solid Roller being the most agressive. Most are wearing out the "Axle" for the roller wheel under extreme pressure of the valve springs that are used on these type cams...Hydraulic roller cams are better, but limit the rpm of the engine due to the heavy nature of the lifter...Valve spring pressures when running a roller cam are Very high..
Posted 2010-11-20 8:54 AM (#250259 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert
Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
Sorry guys, I really messed that question up>
What I meant was "Roller Hydraulic Lifters"
You can run those with about any cam (Or some say).
Well you answered "that one" about using, "any cam"
Thanks, Big Block!!
The lifters do have to have guides to keep them from
turning sideways .
(I hope I did a better job with my question, this time)¿
Posted 2010-12-17 10:38 PM (#253663 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert
Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
She did great, Jon, exceeded your goal and on 89 gas, no less.
Goal was 500 Clb-ft Torque, we hit 526.4 @ 3600 RPM
and that was one of my goals, --low rpm torque ,
even at the lowest rpm,(the dyno test printed out) (3300 rpm) torque was 492.1
Horsepower goal was 450HP, Jon "overshot" that number too.
Max HP was hit at 5400 RPM,----476HP
We only ran the engine to 5600 RPM but it was still making 474 HP there.
Even at 3300 RPM (again low level of dyno test) we were doing 309HP
and she rose pretty kwik from there.
So the car should be a great "Street Machine" and a "Blast" to Drive.
Thanks!! Jon
Gary
PS
I shot some of it with my video camera and I will hafta edit it
but if someone is interested or would like to hear some
"Exotic" sounds, I can post the video on Utube.
It's always fun to see them "Come to Life"---Ya Thinks?
Posted 2010-12-18 1:23 AM (#253678 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119 Location: STL, MO
Gary I am sure you should be happy with that engine and it should push your car down the road in a rush, If the drop at 5500 is nosing over and not a dip it sounds like the cam is well suited to your cars wt., heads, intake and gearing. Good job to the both of you on sorting out the parts to build a nice pumpgas low rpm street motor.
Posted 2010-12-18 12:08 PM (#253710 - in reply to #253678) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert 5K+
Posts: 6203 Location: Big pimpin'
Told ya'll dem 440's make some good power even on 89 Pump gas...you can't beat those numbers...There's a reason those engines were king-o-the street back in the day, and why they are as "Common" as they are today....
Posted 2010-12-19 12:55 PM (#253824 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert
Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
OK , Here is the Dyno Run on the 440 Engine
Test was done on 89 Octane.
Ignor the Sony monitor display and look at the printouts
for the engine HP and Torque.
After the car is all back together we will take you guys for a
ride in it. AC has been rebuilt, Will have new exaust, New MSD
new torque converter New gauges (tach added where clock was)
No worries, all the original gauges are there and still hooked up!!
Enjoys the "Sweet Sounds"
Posted 2010-12-20 6:16 PM (#253970 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert
Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
OK today was header day. They fit right in EXCEPT, for the IDI starter, (which I suspected)--I had to have the old exaust modified and still had to remove a plate from the starter to get the IDI starter in. Fortunately on Headman's site is a suggestion ( A strong one in fact) to use "151 - Must use TCI-type mini starter" which turns out to be a
McLeod #810158 starter. Fortunately, McLeod is only a mile or two from Jon's (JMC Performance) shop. They brought the starter over and it fit perfectly. John says the headers will not have to be removed, should the starter ever require replacement alto the exaust pipe to the header might.
Things are moving along, I can't wait to drive it------Thanks for the inspiration Dukeboy!!!!!!
For all you purist out there that think the car may be worth less, now that it has a 440 in it????
Maybe????? But guess who gives a Rat's @ss-----nope not me!!!!
Posted 2010-12-20 6:57 PM (#253979 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert
Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
Should be soon, next week Jon is taking the car to an exaust shop where it will get all new exaust, maybe Jon will "Chime in" with the details as I can't even recalls the name of the freakin mufflers He gonna use--Thinks
"Turbo-----something or other.
Should have car back last week of December.
No worries, we will have our video camera ready!!!!
The new black top looks great on the car and I had the AC Compressor rebuilt and a new clutch for it so everything will be working on the car.
Posted 2010-12-24 10:03 AM (#254389 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert
Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
Here's a few of the "Progress" pictures. Jon redid the "Mickey Mouse Job" I did on the fuel lines.
He put in all new progressive linkage for the carbs as well as for the tranny kickdown
(Again doing away with my "Designed in Disneyland" linkage.
The AC compressor was totally rebuilt and a new clutch installed.
We Installed a Chrome Alternator and bracket.
A new Fan with thermotatically controlled clutch has been installed, (The Horrie Version).
The Tach was installed where the clock was, in the AC vents are a temp guage and a voltmeter.
Between them is a clock. All are prosport gauges and either white lighting or red lighting
can be selected as can the rest of the dash, including Speedo (White--well actually a lite green--stock)
or Red.
The steering wheel has been "rebuilt" then painted
That's it for now!
Gary
(440 Engine Rockers Detailed.jpg)
(440 Engine Right side.JPG)
(New 440 Engine in 59 Dodge.jpg)
(Refinished Steering Wheel for 59 Dodge modified.jpg)
Posted 2010-12-25 2:18 PM (#254521 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 449 Location: jersey
Do you have and under car shots of the headers? Or pics of where they are in relation to the steering/suspension?
My suburban is on a dodge chassis, so i'm thinking that these headers should fit the same on my car as they do yours.
Posted 2010-12-25 3:02 PM (#254523 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert
Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
I will take pictures this week, (Dec 27-31). The car will be at the exaust shop and soon as the new exaust is installed, I will take a lot
of detailed pictures of headers, etc. The headers cleared everything, power steering linkage, Torsions bars, etc etc, The only thing
that had to be changed was the starter (which Headman warns you about)---even thou I had a "Mini Starter" (IDI) in car, the headers
would not clear it, the new starter clears the headers by a lot, so heat soaking the starter should not be problem.
Have a Merry Christmas!
Posted 2010-12-25 3:06 PM (#254524 - in reply to #254523) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert 5K+
Posts: 6203 Location: Big pimpin'
I take it your running the LATER model ALUMINUM 727 trans "59Dodge"? I don't know and haven't tried the Mini starter on an old CAST IRON trans' bellhousing to see if it will fit or not...This Mini starter just might not fit the early Torqueflite..I'd hate to see someone buy one, only to find out it won't fit...
Posted 2010-12-25 3:25 PM (#254526 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert
Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
As usual, You are correct, Dukeboy. The Tranny is a 1962 727 aluminum Torqueflite. The seller had put it in ,so He could run the 400 engine.
1962 was the first year for the aluminum TQFlte, course it is not correct for the car (Please try to keep that info outta Bishop LOL).
The 1962 tranny was a one year only---it still had the parking brake drum at the rear, which at least for me was a real PITA. I had it rebuilt , etc etc etc, but still I never knew where the car would be after I parked it-----soooo------ since I already had a later rear end
in the car, 1969 Road Runner, 8 & 3/4, I bought the cables needed to hook up the rear drums, and car shop hooked it all up.
The 62 tranny has been rebuilt and a shift kit added and shifts very positively-----as I usually used the pushbuttons--cause the tranny shifted at far lower rpm's than what that old 400 liked!
When you push the 2 button, it goes into 2nd gear straightaway.
Jon has since built adjustable kickdown linkage----soooo--maybe the push buttons will get a "Break"
I can't wait for next week!!!!!
I have a question for You, Dukeboy, being as I'm running a 276 Rear Axle (Limited slip) would this put a tremendous strain on that rear end , or U-joints or????? If I "NAILED IT" from a standing start? Course I wont do that all the time, but I'm curious to know if that engine has the "Balls" to kick the tires loose---even running a 276 Rear End??? Thanks!!!!!!
Posted 2010-12-25 4:29 PM (#254541 - in reply to #254526) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
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1959Dodge - 2010-12-25 3:25 PM
I have a question for You, Dukeboy, being as I'm running a 276 Rear Axle (Limited slip) would this put a tremendous strain on that rear end , or U-joints or????? If I "NAILED IT" from a standing start? Course I wont do that all the time, but I'm curious to know if that engine has the "Balls" to kick the tires loose---even running a 276 Rear End??? Thanks!!!!!!
Merry Christmas Dukeboy!!!
Gary
Well, I wouldn't look for that thing to be knockin' down any super quick elasped times or anything, but I would think with over 550 Ft. Lbs. of torque, you should be able to get up and get moving..Whether or not it blows the tires off or not is another story..ESPECIALLY, if you are running a Sure Grip unit...VERY hard on a stock Torque converter, with 2.76 Rear gear....It might, then again, it might not...I didn't hear mention of a stall converter and 2.76 gear ain't the best for doing big 'ol smokey burnouts...BTW: You REALLY need to have a kickdown linkage on that tranny before you unleash that 440...You WILL burn it up if not...
Posted 2010-12-25 5:25 PM (#254552 - in reply to #253970) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert
Posts: 3575 Location: Netherlands
1959Dodge - 2010-12-20 6:16 PM
For all you purist out there that think the car may be worth less, now that it has a 440 in it????
Maybe????? But guess who gives a Rat's @ss-----nope not me!!!!
Gary
Sorry to hear your car is 'worthless' now Gary, but you can always push it on a boat and ship it to me if you like...!
Nice work on the engine.
Posted 2010-12-27 9:00 AM (#254697 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert
Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
Question for Sermey, or maybe Kent has this trim piece????
I had a new top put on the 59. If you look closely (See the little arrow), you will see
there is a little piece of metal trim that is missing for the SS Trim---It has been missing
since I bought the car 6 years ago.
I'm wondering if you could do one of your drawings on that trim piece, Sermey or do
any of you other guys know where I can get that piece or any suggestions on how to
have one made up?
I have thought about making a fabric trim strip that would snap on and cover that up too,
possibly even building in a "Stop Light" in the trim?????
The car should be in the exaust shop today (Monday, Dec 27). I will try to get over there
and takes pictures of exaust , headers, etc etc.
Posted 2010-12-27 1:31 PM (#254708 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119 Location: STL, MO
I wouldn't be too concerned with the 8 3/4 w/street tires and long wheelbase but as Chaney said the trans/conv could stand upgrading ie deep pan,extra cooler,upgraded converter.
Definitly run a snubber. Blowing the tires off should be just a matter of how long you stand on it, that big car will eat up alot of real estate fish tailing at 40+ mph.
Posted 2010-12-28 9:13 PM (#254856 - in reply to #254697) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119 Location: CA
1959Dodge - 2010-12-27 6:00 AM
Question for Sermey, or maybe Kent has this trim piece????
I had a new top put on the 59. If you look closely (See the little arrow), you will see
there is a little piece of metal trim that is missing for the SS Trim---It has been missing
since I bought the car 6 years ago.
I'm wondering if you could do one of your drawings on that trim piece, Sermey or do
any of you other guys know where I can get that piece or any suggestions on how to
have one made up?
I have thought about making a fabric trim strip that would snap on and cover that up too,
possibly even building in a "Stop Light" in the trim?????
The car should be in the exaust shop today (Monday, Dec 27). I will try to get over there
and takes pictures of exaust , headers, etc etc.
Thanks for your help Sermey, Kent, and others!
Later
Gary
Here is a photo of the piece you are missing. I haven't got a spare and mine isn't for sale but I'd bet it would be easier to have someone fab one up using a metal brake than trying to find one. You'll have to get a snap button for it too!
Posted 2010-12-28 10:12 PM (#254881 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert
Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
Thanks for the pic, Fins in the mirror. John said He will try to make somthing up.
I shudda thought to take a pic of that on Börje's car, He is only 3 miles from me
New exaust just got finished (6pm PST Tuesday Dec 28). I will try go get over to shop tomorrow
and gets pictures of headers and the whole exaust system (If it isn't pouring buckets here).
Posted 2010-12-30 6:14 PM (#255085 - in reply to #255048) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert 5K+
Posts: 6203 Location: Big pimpin'
Gary, all I can say is......................WOW!
Your exhaust looks awesome...I can't get over how well it is set up with the "X" pipe and all..You really outdid yourself on this build, and my hats off to your exhaust guy...I'm amazed to say the lesat and am looking forward (HA!) to a few sound bites on this beast...Very well executed, very well...
Yes, Pictures are Excellent! You really can't say they aren't detailed enough....This will make explaining the clearance issues alot easier...
Congrats Gary, I mighta been one of the first to retro in these type headers, but you are the first to do it to this level, and your car WILL BE the new reference in doing this...
Oh how jealous I am of your ride now...Geesh, that thing is gonna sound GOOD!
Posted 2010-12-30 6:32 PM (#255087 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert
Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
I will get the car tomorrow, Jon wants to put the finishing touches on it and detail the car for me.
He did (let me) drive it around the block.
It sounds great!!!!
It is a completely different feeling car now, feels like the car lost 2000 lbs.
Before, I usta hafta steps bout half way down on the pedal to get her moving
and let the old 400 wind out before I let her shift. Now the second you hit the
pedal she scoots. I didn't floor it or anything but the difference is amazing!!!
Posted 2010-12-30 6:35 PM (#255088 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert
Posts: 3575 Location: Netherlands
That system looks pretty well made! Good job.
Where's the video?
One point of concern though, I would put lock-rings under those nuts at the header-collectors. They might work themselves loose after a while and the gasket might blow out aswell.
Another point The gear-selector cable with the piece of hose clamped on, seems very near to the exhaust tube. Can't you reroute that above the torsionbar, to keep it from melting away perhaps?
Posted 2010-12-30 6:58 PM (#255091 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert
Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
Thanks for the "Headsup" on the lock rings, and also the tranny shifter cable.
I did mention to Jon to be sure to route that cable as far away as possible
from headers and the rest of the exaust system, I think when the picures were
took, the exaust had just been installed , and other items not addressed yet,
but I will double check it---Thanks.
I only go to drive the car around the block today, but I should get the car
back tomorrow (Friday). I will see if we can get a friend to run the camera
whilst I take it for a "Test Drive"!!!!!
Posted 2010-12-30 7:10 PM (#255093 - in reply to #255091) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert 5K+
Posts: 6203 Location: Big pimpin'
Yeah, them 'ol 440's weren't built for fuel mileage. They was built for one thing and one thing only, and you have now found out what that one thing is.....
Posted 2010-12-31 12:33 AM (#255137 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Member
Posts: 36 Location: O.C. CALIFORNIA
Hey guys, I wish I had a picture to post of Gary's grin as he drove his "new" car down the street for the first time today. As someone who HAS put the car past 1/4 throttle, his grin will only get bigger when the second carb kicks in. on the exhaust bolt issue, to solve leak problems we weld the flanges to the pipes and to the headers. we also weld the bolts into the headers(when they don't come that way) and we use locknuts on the bolts.Any one who is having gasket blowout problems should try this. we have hopes that the new found low end might help with fuel mileage around town, because the engine wont have to work as hard to make this heavyweight move. However, that notion might be far fetched. Does anyone out there with a similar set up know what kind of fuel mileage they get?
Posted 2010-12-31 12:42 AM (#255139 - in reply to #255088) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert 5K+
Posts: 5139 Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA
BigBlockMopar - 2010-12-30 5:35 PM
That system looks pretty well made! Good job.
Where's the video?
One point of concern though, I would put lock-rings under those nuts at the header-collectors. They might work themselves loose after a while and the gasket might blow out aswell.
Another point The gear-selector cable with the piece of hose clamped on, seems very near to the exhaust tube. Can't you reroute that above the torsionbar, to keep it from melting away perhaps?
I don't know if this is a valid concern, but I hesitate using lock washers on high temp applications like this. My thought is, the heat will take the temper out of the lock washers. I use longer brass nuts which will never rust, or there are locking nuts that do not use a nylon insert. They either have a "oval" shape at one end or may have dimples in the edge of the nut to make a tighter thread clearance.
Congrats on what looks and reads as a very nice set-up. You will have way to much fun driving that "arrest me red "vert!!...........................MO
Posted 2010-12-31 8:31 AM (#255162 - in reply to #248389) Subject: RE: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert
Posts: 3575 Location: Netherlands
I've got a '60 NewYorker with a dual 2.5" press-bent exhaust with shorty headers and the large Dynomax mufflers and a pair of 2.25" resonators at the rear.
Differences on my system are no X-pipe and a bit more cubicinches under the hood, about 500" orso The chassis is different aswell in 1960. The engine is also topped off with Chrysler's original longram intake system.
My engine is pretty much restricted on the intake and exhaustsystem because of it's 500ci. I want to upgrade it all to 2.5" mandrell bent, or even 3" perhaps, along with a putting a roller cam in the motor.
I've once got about 17mpg during a 2 hour trip, but haven't been able to get that milage again since I've connected the vacuum-advance on the distributor and played around with the ignitiontiming. Need to put some more time into one day.
Some pics of my exhaust which I've bend & build myself using some friends exhaust-bender. (took a couple of trips from and to our garages )
Posted 2010-12-31 8:53 PM (#255268 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert
Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
Well, we got the car back from Jon (I had to "Punch out his lites") to get it away from him
Don't tell Jon, but this succer is "Impressive" to say the least.
It idles like a baby buggy, very smooth, car doesn't "Rock and Roll" at stop lites
like the old 400 engine did. So ya thinks, "Big Deal"???
Then I steps bout half way down on it and I hears "Screetchin Sounds"------never heard that before unless I
slammed on the brakes. Pretty impressive with a car that heavy and a 276 rear end.
I figgured , I would some day havta "Byte the bullet" and buy one of those expensive
over drives and redo the rear axle ratio----Nope-----the 440 solved all those problems.
Now I have "One heck of a launch" I suspect I could burn these tires up pretty quick (but we won't)
and on the other "Side of the coin", We have a great "Highway Cruiser" with that "Nasty 440"
just loafing along at 70 mph or so.
Didn't have time to do videos today, but we will!!!
Thanks again Duke for the inspiration and Thanks Jon for being able to put that thing Together!!!
Posted 2011-02-23 9:16 PM (#262185 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca
Herman (and Gary, et al), you guys should have your distributors be bench tested, to confirm their intrinsic Mechanical
advancements, and, to confirm the vacuum advancement that is attached to them.
Herm, a working V.A. HELPS the miles-per-gallon (at cruising speeds), it should not hinder it.
Ideally, you want to achieve about 45-50 degrees of total advancement (bet that you guys are not even CLOSE to that
figure---but, I'll soon have a thread-post on this subject, I hope!), but, ideally, the dissie's built-in M.A. will be about 28-30
degrees, so that with the initial advancement (set on the engine) at 4-8 degrees, plus the 28-30 M.A., you'll get about 32-36
degrees of total M.A., so, you can install a Vacuum Advance unit which will give you your +/- 45-50 degrees of total advancement.
My own car will soon have 6 degrees of initial, 28 degrees of built-in M.A. (thanks to a 1955 Windsor dissie!) and a V.A. unit
having 16 degrees = 50 degrees total advance.
Not stealing your thread, Gary, but with your car's 2.76 rear end, you should have whatever-dissie-you've-got be bench tested;
there's probably a lot of hidden HP/torque being restrained by your distributor's built-in mechanical advancement.
BTW, the V.A.'s advancement can be determined by removing it from the dissie and DOUBLING the small stamped number
that you'll see, on its lever-arm.
Posted 2011-02-23 9:56 PM (#262187 - in reply to #262185) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert 5K+
Posts: 6203 Location: Big pimpin'
I'm of the opinion that high compression engines and 50 degrees of timing don't mix...even going down the highway..Most of Herman's engines are in the 500 C.I. range and are not very efficient at 50 plus degrees of timing "All in"...THIS is why when we run an aftermarket camshaft we usually don't run VA units...These engines tend to like 36 Total degrees timing all in around 3000 RPM....Yes, with an aneamic 300 C.I. engine, you might want to scrounge up every available HP, but when you have over 550 On tap, you are not all that concerned with MPG, as much as Detonation
Posted 2011-02-23 10:25 PM (#262190 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert
Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
I wanted the vacuum advance as I've always had them, and like Neil, I figgered better gas mileage, and better Low RPM performance. But---- when they were turning the engine as well as Dyno testing the engine they could just not get it to run right with the vacuum advance.
I do have one on the 413 on the 64
but we are not running anywhere near the compression ratio, torque or horsepower that the 440 is putting out.
I had my doubts about the low end performance, but the throttle response is "Instantaneous" regardless of engine RPM's, I can be going 20 or so, nail it and break the tires loose, and at a full stop it takes no effort to smoke the tires, ---yep even with the 276 rear and fairly large tires, so Maybe Duke's knows more than me, at least about those high power Hi- Torque engines???
I certainly have no complaints about it's performance, and cruising along slowly the throttle is just barely cracked. I havent measure the mpg yet, but I don't think it's much worse than the old 400, course I drive it a bit more vigorous now---Ya know, gotta brake in the engine!!!
I learned another thing too, Jon told me they actually dynoed the engine on 87 gas not 89 octane
so that 476 HP was on 87 gas. We probably could tune it for 500 HP but my goal was to run it on
87, and I have yet to hear a ping out of it, or the starter drag on a hot start, so what can ya say?
The Dizzy was "Dialed in" during the bench testing, pretty easy to do with the MSD Distributor.
I appreciate your inputs Neil, feel free to do so , any time.
Posted 2011-02-23 10:47 PM (#262194 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert
Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
Hmmmm, I just reread dukeboy;s response again. Pretty amazing, the engine did its best performance at 35 Degrees, I would say that's pretty close to 36? and I doubt Duke or his friends running 87 octane?
Posted 2011-02-23 11:20 PM (#262199 - in reply to #262194) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert 5K+
Posts: 6203 Location: Big pimpin'
Gary, this is why I do not respond when someone is asking about body numbers and such...
Yep, run my junk on 87 regular...I only have one car that likes 110 octane, but it gets 93/Cam2 mix..And that one does the most sitting..until I need to shut down some loud mouth..
Again, I really wish I could see your car in person as you executed the BB swap flawlessly. Everything I have done, you took the initial idea and did it one better. Twould be a pleasure to just ride in it..I can almost smell the fumes now. Enjoy, as you earned it...
Posted 2011-02-24 2:04 AM (#262210 - in reply to #248389) Subject: RE: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert 5K+
Posts: 5139 Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA
FWIW. An aquaintance who is a Mopar Guru and wrote a book on 44o budget engines , actually sets his distributor up with a limit on tha mechanical advance , and quick advance above starting and hi idle. This is on a drag racing engine. Also some electronic ignitions retard the timing from full advance when it hits the higher RPM...........................MO
Posted 2011-03-27 3:33 PM (#266138 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 449 Location: jersey
What starter did you end up using? Just got these headers, and it says to use mcleod 810159, but that number is invalid. And # 810158, doesn't seem to be available.
Posted 2011-04-09 10:24 AM (#267691 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert
Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
Summit Racing does not list that starter, but Mcleod Racing does, and their facility is only a mile or 2 from JMC Performance.
It is an EXPENSIVE Starter, and unless you are using Headman Headers, You "MAY NOT" need if, but if you do Need It, Here is the Link.l
They used to list both the 810158 and the 810159 (The 810158 for Small Block Mopars and the 810159 for the Big Block Mopars)---but it turned out the 810158 worked for both applications ---so they discontinued the
810159. The 810158 spins the 9.8 to one 440 over very enthusically, hot or cold, alto in most cases
the engine usually fires off on the first piston. Only when the engine is really hot will she go thru a few pistons
before starting, and this is due to some slight boiling of our lousy gas, and all the heat that the aluminum heads add to the under hood temp.
I did buy the Edelbrock carb insulators which does help---alto if it were a "Perfect world" She would start on first piston regardless of temp.
Anyway, very happy with engine, Headman Headers and the Mcleod Starter.
Posted 2011-04-09 10:30 AM (#267692 - in reply to #267691) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert 5K+
Posts: 6203 Location: Big pimpin'
Gary, again, congrats on you exhaust as it looks amazing. I wish I could see this one in person one day...Thanks for the info on the Starter. Lots of cruising this summer. only wish fuel was a little cheaper. Still building the kids car at the moment, but look to fire it up before too long.
Posted 2011-04-09 11:27 AM (#267701 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert
Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
We will be at the Spring Fling in Van Nuys Calif, next Saturday, (April 16th, 2011).
I will bring my Digital Video camera and get some pictures of the car "Flying Down The Road" (LOL).
Aivar will be taking his 59 D 500 CRL Black and Champagne so we will get some pics of that "Baby"
flying down the highway, too.
The motor mounts were not replaced and Jon used the ones from the old 400 Engine, and I have already
managed to "Loosen up" the right motor mount (excess play) so I may havta be a "bit careful" in
smoking the tires----less I grind up my new radiator shroud. Jon tells me the motor mounts are about
$150 each (ouch)---and tis tax time---so not sure we will have it replaced prior to Spring Fling.
Thanks again, Duke, for your comments, this thing is truly a JOY to drive, and the car "Feels" very "Light on it's feet" with 476 HP.
Posted 2011-04-09 12:31 PM (#267713 - in reply to #248503) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert 5K+
Posts: 6203 Location: Big pimpin'
Gary, 'twas a pleasure to help in any way I could. Glad you are happy and I saw the job you did on your exhaust, so now I'm thinking seriously about reworking the exhaust on a car I'm currently building and will be painting before long. He will be running the Low deck engine, but will have headers on it. I usually install a driver's side motor mount "Torque strap" (Basically, a chain running from engine down to frame) in order to keep the motor mounts in one piece. Would love to see the video when you get a chance.
Posted 2011-04-09 2:37 PM (#267721 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert
Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
Thanks for that Duke Boy "Motor mount preservation kit" (LOL).
I will see if Jon can do some kind of "temporairy fix" so we can
"Nail it" it the upcoming video.
There was a guy with a brand new Camaro at a car show I went to,
He came by and saw the engine and asked, "how many HP"?
I told him 476 He said He wasn't gonna challenge me to any races (LOL).
Posted 2011-04-10 5:00 AM (#267784 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert
Posts: 3575 Location: Netherlands
Can some Mod here do his job and delete all this offtopic cr@p from this good topic please?
Gary,
I've looked at those $150,- mounts aswell but no-way I will be spending that kinda money on something simple as an engine mount. The steel seems thicker on those mounts, but that was never their issue with these mounts. Just the rubber separating from the steel by heat and oil.
Personally I don't trust these Floating Power mount designs when they're are holding a (way) stronger then stock motor. Therefore I've modded the mounts in my '60NY by drilling them and pressing a steel 3/8" rod through them and welding the ends to the mounts at both sides. 3/8" is fairly thick and will transmit some (idling) engine-vibrations to the car, one could probably also use 5/16" rods.
Posted 2011-04-10 9:15 AM (#267796 - in reply to #248389) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert
Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca
Thanks for that Big Block. I will have Jon check out your post. I did some googling and have found engine mounts (supposedly for a 440) for considerably less than $150 and even found you can buy just the rubber part of the engine mount.
If any of you other "Mopar Gurus" have any suggestions as to motor mounts, please feel free to post about same!
Posted 2011-04-11 3:30 AM (#267948 - in reply to #267796) Subject: Re: Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
Expert 5K+
Posts: 5139 Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA
1959Dodge - 2011-04-10 8:15 AM
Thanks for that Big Block. I will have Jon check out your post. I did some googling and have found engine mounts (supposedly for a 440) for considerably less than $150 and even found you can buy just the rubber part of the engine mount.
If any of you other "Mopar Gurus" have any suggestions as to motor mounts, please feel free to post about same!
Thanks!
Gary
There is a company called Schumacker(sp?) that makes positive locking motor mounts. thay cannot be pulled apart. and are completely surrounded by rubber. The company advertises in the Mopar magazines. .....................................MO
Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
