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Location: Sept. 1958 | I wanted to start a thread with photos of any 1958 Mopars with EFI. Since I became aware of this system years ago it has always been very fascinating with me. There's not many photos seen of these cars and fewer with underhood shots, though there are many on the Internet of White's Desoto taken in the past several years. So I'll start out and post some I have gotten off the net. Never have seen a photo of a Dodge with this option. Your welcome to post anymore you may have.
 (1958 Plymouth Belvedere EFI.jpg)
 (1958 Fury EFI.jpg)
 (1958 Desoto Adventurer EFI.jpg)
 (1958 Desoto Adventurer EFI 2.jpg)
 (1958 Chrysler EFI.jpg)
 (1958 Chrysler EFI 2.jpg)
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 1958 Plymouth Belvedere EFI.jpg (117KB - 1405 downloads)
1958 Fury EFI.jpg (54KB - 543 downloads)
1958 Desoto Adventurer EFI.jpg (150KB - 1970 downloads)
1958 Desoto Adventurer EFI 2.jpg (57KB - 506 downloads)
1958 Chrysler EFI.jpg (193KB - 539 downloads)
1958 Chrysler EFI 2.jpg (75KB - 506 downloads)
1958 Chrysler EFI 3.jpg (89KB - 438 downloads)
1958 Chrysler EFI 4.jpg (113KB - 708 downloads)
1958 Chrysler EFI 5.jpg (91KB - 813 downloads)
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Location: Under the X in Texas | Assorted photos of LC4 1525, formerly Bob Dupin's 300D. Car was originally white. EFI motor and parts were not installed in the car when I took these photos. All photo credits Wayne Graefen, please. Current ownership and location are not public info. No, it is not in my barn.
Edited by StillOutThere 2012-06-09 11:25 AM
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scan0023.jpg (70KB - 464 downloads)
scan0025.jpg (62KB - 426 downloads)
scan0026.jpg (75KB - 605 downloads)
scan0027.jpg (67KB - 419 downloads)
scan0028.jpg (71KB - 481 downloads)
scan0032.jpg (68KB - 415 downloads)
scan0033.jpg (59KB - 470 downloads)
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Location: Under the X in Texas | If you are looking at the pics I posted and saying, "ummmm, there are two FI intake manifolds, 4 air cleaners...", YES, Bob owned two complete EFI units for 300Ds. One belonged to this car and the second was the Bendix auto show display unit which had the chromed perforated shielding pieces. |
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Expert
Posts: 2996
Location: Sept. 1958 | Thank you for posting these photos. I had seen some but not all. Now was Bob's 300D still a Fuelie when he found it? There's a couple photos of a Plymouth in an older Collectible Automobile that shows a Fuelie with the ignition shielding. |
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Expert
Posts: 3588
Location: Plymouth Spaceport | Were the chrome perforated wire shields standard on all fuel injected cars,or were they for the show display only? |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Have hard numbers ever been established for how many of these were built, broken down by make
or even body type ?
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Location: Sept. 1958 | Doctor DeSoto - 2012-06-09 1:52 PM
Have hard numbers ever been established for how many of these were built, broken down by make
or even body type ?
According to a Bendix manual Tom White had, may have sold it with the car, documented that 16 300Ds, 12 D500s, 5 Desotos, and 2 Plymouth Furys had the option. But that doesn't count the lone Belvedere built with this option. |
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Location: Under the X in Texas | When Bob Dupin found that 300D it had a 300C race engine in it that Vicki Woods had driven at Daytona Beach Speed Trials. That was in the car when I saw it. Also, he received with the car the original 300D "matching number" motor but with the dual quad dealer retrofit. I don't recall the full story but he immediately started hunting the EFI and tracked it down. Then some years after that he found the Bendix show assembly.
Only the Bendix show unit had the chrome shielding according to Bob.
Gloria Moon of the 300 Int'l club claims there were 21 EFI 300Ds. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | I would sure like to know how my Fireflite came to have a F/I emblem in the trunk ! 
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Location: Sept. 1958 | Doctor DeSoto - 2012-06-09 3:08 PM
I would sure like to know how my Fireflite came to have a F/I emblem in the trunk !
That is interesting, I know your car was rusty, I guess you don't remember seeing a removable cover for fuel pump removal in the trunk floor. |
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Location: Plymouth Spaceport | StillOutThere - 2012-06-09 11:33 AM
When Bob Dupin found that 300D it had a 300C race engine in it that Vicki Woods had driven at Daytona Beach Speed Trials. That was in the car when I saw it. Also, he received with the car the original 300D "matching number" motor but with the dual quad dealer retrofit. I don't recall the full story but he immediately started hunting the EFI and tracked it down. Then some years after that he found the Bendix show assembly.
Only the Bendix show unit had the chrome shielding according to Bob.
Gloria Moon of the 300 Int'l club claims there were 21 EFI 300Ds.
Thanks for the information.Why do you suppose they didnt offer the perforated chrome shielding with the actual installations? I really like the look it lends to the setup and its functional,was it a cost cutting decision? |
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Location: Parts Unknown | There are photos of both a white and a gold Adventure coupes that were used on
the car show circuit in 58. Tom White's convertible accounts for a 3rd of the five said
to have been built. Here is another shot of the gold car.
 (58 Desotos.jpg)
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58 Desotos.jpg (43KB - 458 downloads)
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Location: Parts Unknown | christine-lover - 2012-06-10 12:20 PM
That is interesting, I know your car was rusty, I guess you don't remember seeing a removable
cover for fuel pump removal in the trunk floor.
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I don't expect that my car was an F/I car. But somewhere, someone picked up an emblem !
There has to be a good story in there somewhere ! Just wish I knew ! |
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Location: Sept. 1958 | Doctor DeSoto - 2012-06-09 3:38 PM
christine-lover - 2012-06-10 12:20 PM
That is interesting, I know your car was rusty, I guess you don't remember seeing a removable
cover for fuel pump removal in the trunk floor.
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I don't expect that my car was an F/I car. But somewhere, someone picked up an emblem !
There has to be a good story in there somewhere ! Just wish I knew ! :bleh:
It just seems odd that a past owner ended up with one of these emblems, just the base, as there wasn't many made to begin with. Can you tell if it was ever used? It would not be completely impossible if your car did have EFI. |
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Posts: 3588
Location: Plymouth Spaceport | I still think thats one of the wildest looking emblems around!
 (fuel-injected-badge.jpg)
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fuel-injected-badge.jpg (35KB - 812 downloads)
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Location: Parts Unknown | christine-lover - 2012-06-10 12:43 PM
It just seems odd that a past owner ended up with one of these emblems, just the base, as there wasn't many made to begin with. Can you tell if it was ever used? It would not be completely impossible if your car did have EFI.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Until recently, I did not know that the gas tank access was part of the F/I deal. I have yet to pull the old pan,
and the trunk is currently stuffed with parts.
Since this car has been confirmed as being a "corporate use" car by it's coding, who knows, maybe it did get
the fancy pants injection ?
This would be a mixed blessing, as finding such a system for re-installation ranks as probably the most impossible
challenge there is with finned Mopars ! 
I'd be happy just to put the emblems on it. 
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Posts: 4036
Location: Connecticut | You're probably aware that Sherwood Kahlenberg has three EFI 300Ds.
Ron |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Hey kids ! .... collect the whole set ! 
Just like you "expect" an Imperial to have power seats and windows, the impact
of a 300 with performance goodies and fancy options is much less on me than it
would be on a similarly equipped Dodge. It is SO out of the ordinary !
F/I 300 = cool
F/I DeSoto, Dodge, or Plymouth = just plain awesome !
Not to knock an F/I 300, ANY F/I car is going to to be an outstanding rarity. A non-
300 would only be moreso in terms of original production and higher kill rate of the
lesser makes.
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Location: Sept. 1958 | ronbo97 - 2012-06-09 4:18 PM
You're probably aware that Sherwood Kahlenberg has three EFI 300Ds.
Ron
Yeah, didn't know the name but I had heard someone in CA had a couple. Doesn't he have a FI setup too.
There was a guy, can't remember his name, who was on the lookout for one of these 300s years ago, and in his search found the yard, Warhoops, where at least 4 GM showcars were sent to be destroyed.
There was a claim about a FI Dodge that was found in a gully, but nothing else has ever surfaced with that story. |
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Location: Sept. 1958 | Doctor DeSoto - 2012-06-09 3:54 PM
christine-lover - 2012-06-10 12:43 PM
It just seems odd that a past owner ended up with one of these emblems, just the base, as there wasn't many made to begin with. Can you tell if it was ever used? It would not be completely impossible if your car did have EFI.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Until recently, I did not know that the gas tank access was part of the F/I deal. I have yet to pull the old pan,
and the trunk is currently stuffed with parts.
Since this car has been confirmed as being a "corporate use" car by it's coding, who knows, maybe it did get
the fancy pants injection ?
This would be a mixed blessing, as finding such a system for re-installation ranks as probably the most impossible
challenge there is with finned Mopars !
I'd be happy just to put the emblems on it.
Yeah, it would probably be easier getting to the bottom of The Money Pit.
Yes, there was a gold X FI emblem on eBay recently. I was able to buy it and when I asked for more info on it to see what else the guy had, he said he found the emblem in a drawer at an estate sale in Michigan. The guy had worked for Chrysler, the seller didn't find any other FI parts. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Nobody has yet posted that the car in the first photo is a Fuelie Belvedere (right?).
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Posts: 2996
Location: Sept. 1958 | d500neil - 2012-06-09 10:04 PM
Nobody has yet posted that the car in the first photo is a Fuelie Belvedere (right?).
I didn't but mentioned one was built. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1048
Location: PL / EU | another FI
This car was on ebay two years ago
 (300D_front_right.jpg)
 (300D_medallion_left.jpg)
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300D_front_right.jpg (173KB - 597 downloads)
300D_medallion_left.jpg (152KB - 428 downloads)
300D_rear_left_1.jpg (180KB - 555 downloads)
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Location: Under the X in Texas | 1960DesotoAdventurer - 2012-06-09 2:25 PM StillOutThere - 2012-06-09 11:33 AM When Bob Dupin found that 300D it had a 300C race engine in it that Vicki Woods had driven at Daytona Beach Speed Trials. That was in the car when I saw it. Also, he received with the car the original 300D "matching number" motor but with the dual quad dealer retrofit. I don't recall the full story but he immediately started hunting the EFI and tracked it down. Then some years after that he found the Bendix show assembly. Only the Bendix show unit had the chrome shielding according to Bob. Gloria Moon of the 300 Int'l club claims there were 21 EFI 300Ds. Thanks for the information.Why do you suppose they didnt offer the perforated chrome shielding with the actual installations? I really like the look it lends to the setup and its functional,was it a cost cutting decision? I doubt Chrysler ever had any intention of any chrome pieces (shielding, air cleaners) on the production EFI system. It was strictly done by Bendix for auto show promotion and press release photography.
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Location: Under the X in Texas | Regarding the DeSoto fuel injection badge found in a trunk, or the fact there are numerous Chrysler 300 collectors who have NOS D-EFI badges on their shelves, Chrysler had full intention of the EFI systems in all their car lines being production available for the rest of the year. So when they tooled up for the plastic medallions or fender badges, there would have been hundreds of them made. Older 300 guys can tell you they recall when Chrysler Corp. still had medallions in their inventories at factory parts depots as well as a few miscellaneous parts for the systems. Also attaching a pic of the trunk access cover to the EFI fuel pump in a 300D.
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TrunkAccess.jpg (55KB - 441 downloads)
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 558
Location: Grenoble - France | An 1958 Adventurer.
 (DeSotoSalonChicago1958.jpg)
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DeSotoSalonChicago1958.jpg (77KB - 439 downloads)
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Location: Parts Unknown | Yeah, ... there's the white car.
Anyone have a side shot of this scene showing a side shot of the big body convertible behind the Sweep ?
Maybe even a background shot from the Lincoln area ? It is possible that this was my car.
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Posts: 2633
Location: Minor Hill, TN | My dad told me alot of those got recalled way back in the day due to a problem with the fuel injection |
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Location: Under the X in Texas | 1961plymouthfury - 2012-06-11 9:52 AM My dad told me alot of those got recalled way back in the day due to a problem with the fuel injection Yes, a whole lot of them. In fact ALL of them were recalled and fitted with stock carburetion appropriate to the make and model. All of the EFI equipment was supposed to go back to the factory. Some of it got left on dealer shelves. Some of it got stolen by dealer employees or through friends of theirs. Those are the units and pieces that have been found. Along with items that were still in the pipeline at Bendix. And I'd guess there is more out there. I did speak with a fellow once some 20 years ago who swore to me that he had found an EFI-equipped 300D in Hawaii, that the car was extremely rusty, and that he took it to his mother's home there and parted it out. Had a couple of follow-up conversations with him including meeting him in person to view a couple of FL cars he had for sale. Everything else he said was honest enough and I have no reason to doubt him but he moved and I lost track of him. He wasn't ready to sell the EFI motor when we had corresponded. Track those rumors guys; there is gold at the end of some rainbows.
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Location: Parts Unknown | StillOutThere - 2012-06-12 12:48 PM
Track those rumors guys; there is gold at the end of some rainbows.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Wayne,
I want to get hooked up with YOUR rumor mill. Mine only seems to produce guys who swear
they parted out a six cylinder 55 Plaza !
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7806
Location: Williams California | I still have the documented 300 D EFI coupe that I bought in 2005. Rough condition, but have been collecting parts for it the last seven years. It has the crooked oil fill neck, and the removable fuel pump access cover in the trunk, as well as a portion of one of the EFI badges. All other EFI equipment is missing, due to the recall.
---John |
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Veteran
Posts: 114
Location: South Australia | WOW!!
Even propper MOPAR's (Plymouth) had Fuel Injection!!...I can't believe it!!
So i take it there is documented evidence of 2 x '58 Furys AND a Belverdere running 318's or 350 GC's???
Do they have the same or different F/I badge work,do they still survive?
I'm blown away...i'd never heard this until this morning.
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Posts: 2996
Location: Sept. 1958 | muddy - 2012-06-11 8:31 PM
WOW!!
Even propper MOPAR's (Plymouth) had Fuel Injection!!...I can't believe it!!
So i take it there is documented evidence of 2 x '58 Furys AND a Belverdere running 318's or 350 GC's???
Do they have the same or different F/I badge work,do they still survive?
I'm blown away...i'd never heard this until this morning.
Same emblem. The FI Plymouths are not known to exist, there is a story that a FI Fury got wrecked very early on shortly after delivery. They used 350s, that setup was same as 361s for Dodge and Desoto. There is a story about the FI Belvedere in the archives. The guy drive it 100k miles with the injection set up still in the car but removed it later on. Guess it escaped the recall. |
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Expert
Posts: 2996
Location: Sept. 1958 | Here's the photos of a system in a 1958 Fury from an April 1986 issue of Collectible Automobile.
 (1958 Fury EFI.jpg)
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1958 Fury EFI.jpg (206KB - 2414 downloads)
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Veteran
Posts: 257
Location: Kansas City | An EFI Chrysler 300-D would be my ultimate barn find. Would love to own one and restore it to the level that Tom White did with his DeSoto Adventurer convertible. I would spend the time and money it would take to re-engineer the setup so it would work on the car. I think it is sad that no one has done that yet with a 300. I was so happy to see that Tom went that extra mile to get all the right pieces and make his work. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Agreed. Being as "legendary" as the EFI was, I would love to have the chance to drive White's car
to compare performance to a similar well built carburated car. Given how many of the D's survive, I
wonder why none are running with the EFI ? Especially since White's car blazed the trail on how to make
the system work.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | The EFI's were recalled, because of their intermittent operation.
Most-all owners were glad to hand-in their defectively operating EFI systems, for carbureted replacements.
Turns out, thanks to modern research (and trial-and-error) by White, that the capacitors(?) were paper-wrapped, then, and
susceptible to electronic interference....the modern ceramic enclosed Gizmochies eliminated the sporadic operation
(-this, from my general recollection of the situation)...
Edited by d500neil 2012-06-13 12:31 AM
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Location: Parts Unknown | That is what White explained to me. This was before he had even started the restoration
of that car. But he was speculating that the problem was with the shielding of the electronics
from external interference. I think he said this as well, but I heard from others old enough
to remember these, that the then-common large neon signs along roadways (amongst other
things) would simply shut the system down. Nothing sours a person on a "good idea" faster
than it leaving them stranded over and over.
White said he had some background in such electronics and thought he could fix the issues
and make it operate without problems. Apparently that worked out.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | ..I remember "traffic lights" as causing the cars to stumble/stall.
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Location: Under the X in Texas | Doctor DeSoto - 2012-06-12 10:48 PM SNIP Given how many of the D's survive, I wonder why none are running with the EFI ? Especially since White's car blazed the trail on how to make the system work. Really rather simple: they don't have the original EFI parts
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Location: The Mile High City | It sounds like, at the very least, Bob Lupin or whomever bought Lupin's car / parts has the capability to restore one or more EFI 300Ds - unless some of those parts made there way into the Adventurer convertible. The question is why that hasn't happened yet, since White so kindly wrote the book on how to accomplish the feat.
When talking about such an extreme rarity, I bet a lot of these stories are related. The person who "swore he had an EFI Plymouth" might just have sold his EFI setup to Lupin - and you see a picture of it in the trunk. Maybe.
Great thread Matt!
Edited by Lancer Mike 2012-06-13 11:22 AM
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Expert
Posts: 2996
Location: Sept. 1958 | Lancer Mike - 2012-06-13 11:13 AM
It sounds like, at the very least, Bob Lupin or whomever bought Lupin's car / parts has the capability to restore one or more EFI 300Ds - unless some of those parts made there way into the Adventurer convertible. The question is why that hasn't happened yet, since White so kindly wrote the book on how to accomplish the feat.
When talking about such an extreme rarity, I bet a lot of these stories are related. The person who "swore he had an EFI Plymouth" might just have sold his EFI setup to Lupin - and you see a picture of it in the trunk. Maybe.
Great thread Matt!
Story goes White found his setup through a guy who over heard him talking at Hershey. Also, remember they made two different FI setups, one for B blocks (19 built?), one for Chrysler Hemis (16 built?). |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1048
Location: PL / EU | .
 (news_b_EFI.jpg)
 (news_b_EFI_1.jpg)
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news_b_EFI.jpg (166KB - 562 downloads)
news_b_EFI_1.jpg (63KB - 427 downloads)
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Expert
Posts: 1316
Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels | Searching through my stuff, I found back the 1957 SAE paper explaining the Bendix Electrojector system.
I have uploaded it just for you ... Too big to attach it here.
http://soyeur.pagesperso-orange.fr/Mopar/SAE%20paper%20on%20Electro...
Edited by Chrome58 2012-06-13 2:12 PM
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Posts: 1728
Location: Fleetwood, Pa | If I remember correctly Tom White told me his unit came out of someone's attic not far from where his Desoto was originally sold. It was probably that Desoto's original system. I think his car was originally sold in central Pennsylvania....... |
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Expert
Posts: 1493
Location: Jamaica Plain, MA | Hi there, Tom Hoover, the godfather of the 426 Hemi and a founder of the Ramchargers, is a hero of mine. Partly because I own his old DeSoto, and partly because of his involvement with everything cool Chrysler. I often wonder if he parked his 1958 DeSoto with a prototype 392 fuel injected engine next to Virgil Exner's 1958 Belvedere convertible at Highland Park. In any case, he was one of the guys who tried to figure out how to adapt the Electrojector. Here is a quote of his, and a link to a fun article about the Electrojector and sudden acceleration. It also addresses the faraday shielding that folks have been commenting on. Based on how we now understand EM fields, the shielding wasn't sufficient.
“Bendix had been at the cutting edge of military aircraft fuel system design during the final phases of World War II. Ten years later, we were intending to release fuel injection for passenger cars. I was surprised that Bendix, the company that had engineered fuel injection for 18-cylinder B-29s, didn’t have more reliable electronic equipment ready for car applications.
“We soon bumped into what was called electromagnetic interference (EMI) while conducting calibration exercises to improve drivability. One day we were driving past the WJR radio transmitter— located in suburban Detroit and one of the most powerful broadcast towers in the country—when the engine suddenly flooded out and died. The radio waves so confused the Electrojector injection system that it began filling the engine’s oil sump with raw fuel.
“At that point we began madly shielding all the wiring associated with this system but that wasn’t enough. It really wasn’t what was needed to put the Electrojector system into ordinary passenger car service with regular customers driving around here, there, and everywhere.
“The second memorable experience I had with an experimental Electrojector system occurred in Highland Park at the entrance to Chrysler’s Engineering center. It was nearly quitting time and rush hour had begun on Oakland Avenue. A technician and I were hurrying back to the gate in a 1958 DeSoto sedan. When a break opened up in the traffic, I mashed the throttle wide open to take advantage of it. Unfortunately, the throttle linkage jammed. By the time I got the steering sorted and reached for the ignition key, we were on a collision course for a telephone pole next to the five-story engineering building’s entry door. I smashed the right-front fender there in front of God and everybody, which made me quite famous around engineering for several days."
Read more: http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/1003_sudden_acceleration...
Edited by JT Vincent 2012-06-13 4:31 PM
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Posts: 1493
Location: Jamaica Plain, MA | A picture of the space-age engine in Tom Hoover's '57 Plymouth convertible. It's a 392 with a hand fabricated intake. It's not injected-- a dual quad tunnel-ram system with each runner designed for peak horsepower at different RPMs. It was supposed to make it have a wide torque curve. This was his daily driver, but was also a demon on the track. A reminder that there may be other treasures out there, not accounted for by Chrysler Historical.
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tomscar.jpg (129KB - 439 downloads)
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Posts: 3967
Location: DFW, TX | I've tried for the past four years to locate a set (four pieces) of the Googie-inspired emblem used on the Plymouth / Dodge / DeSoto. I have only come up empty. I'm surprised that so many people have the parts and just want to sit on them, but if anyone has some they would like to sell or would be willing to let me reproduce, I am definitely interested! |
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Expert
Posts: 2996
Location: Sept. 1958 | Brent will look seriously into getting these reproduced when he gets back to the US. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | I spoke with the big dog at our local tech college before I left about their CNC specialty program
and how I might have these done. He was confident it was no big deal, but urged me to try and
locate a specimen of the chromed lettering piece to make shorter work of creating that piece. I
have the gold "star" piece in hand.
Having the actual part in hand for getting angles, crowns, and finished right would be much easier
than basing it off even good close up photos (which I have).
A deployment has largely stood in the way of following up on this, although I have continued to
casually follow leads on the needed part as they have come up.
Whatever happens, I will post updates to the project here as they develop.
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Veteran
Posts: 114
Location: South Australia | christine-lover - 2012-06-11 10:25 PM
Here's the photos of a system in a 1958 Fury from an April 1986 issue of Collectible Automobile.
WOW Again!!
That is just Awesom!!
I can't stop looking at that pic.Man that 350 probably would have had some punch too,with F/I on it?.
So i take it that the photo is a late 50's photo printed in the 1980's magazine?
A '58 F/I CG 350 Plymouth Fury...i just got me a new dream car!!.....:) |
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Expert
Posts: 1316
Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels | Here is an older topic with LOTSA pics : http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=19270
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Veteran
Posts: 206
Location: Chattanooga | Does anybody have a picture of the emblem on a 1958 Dodge? We know the emblem was on the front fender of the DeSoto and Plymouth, but I would love to see a picture of a Dodge with fuel injection. |
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Expert
Posts: 1493
Location: Jamaica Plain, MA | I know a fabricator who works from 3D computer models and a 3D printer. He can make almost anything from comic book characters to Hollywood costume pieces, props, etc. The final product would probably be in resin, although he does metal casting, too. Is that helpful? |
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Expert
Posts: 2996
Location: Sept. 1958 | RamPhoenix - 2012-06-19 1:19 PM
Does anybody have a picture of the emblem on a 1958 Dodge? We know the emblem was on the front fender of the DeSoto and Plymouth, but I would love to see a picture of a Dodge with fuel injection.
I would love to see a photo of one of these FI D500. Anybody? I surmise it was on the front fenders and not the rear quarters, listed in the parts catalog as a front fender nameplate. Maybe White does, I've heard he had some photos of a FI Fury back in the day on the beach, Daytona? |
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Location: The Mile High City | RamPhoenix - 2012-06-19 11:19 AM
Does anybody have a picture of the emblem on a 1958 Dodge? We know the emblem was on the front fender of the DeSoto and Plymouth, but I would love to see a picture of a Dodge with fuel injection.
I'd like to see one too. On the solid color or standard or deluxe two-tones, the front fender placement would be easy. On the saddle or spring special cars, I don't know what they would do! |
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Location: Oxnard/Ventura, California | d500neil - 2012-06-12 11:33 PM
..I remember "traffic lights" as causing the cars to stumble/stall.
That was the main reason I heard the electrojector was recalled. I didn't know they had paper-wrapped capacitors! Makes sense now...
KFD |
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Location: Finger Lakes NY | there was a guy who posted in the old forums saying he had found a d500 f/i car in a ravine
never heard anymore about it
so there may be a dodge out there
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Location: Sept. 1958 | fast59desoto - 2012-06-29 5:26 PM
there was a guy who posted in the old forums saying he had found a d500 f/i car in a ravine
never heard anymore about it
so there may be a dodge out there
That's the legend I heard. But I guess it's just that. |
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| On the reliability note... Chrysler paid Norm Thatcher to test drive a pre-production F.I. 300D across county for publicity. Upon arriving in Southern California he was interviewed and quoted as saying it was a flawless trip in the newspapers, however members of his shop many years later said he had non-stop problems and bugs. Added to this, that when he started his trip he was only getting a 4 to 6 miles per gallon. Keep in mind this was only a very short while before the cars actually went on sale.
Chrysler used Norm's shop to prep the West Coast media cars, which included some F.I. cars for the media & VIPs. They also used his shop to remove the F.I. from these specific cars. Norm received crates to return all setups back to Chrysler.
Almost all of them made it back ;0)
Edited by Hyfire 2012-06-29 6:42 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | The Dodge "in the ravine" was/is a 1957 D501 sedan, that was featured as the "Pile of Dodge" in MoPar Muscle magazine,
15-ish years ago.
That car was found lying on its top, so all of the mechanical goodies were still preserved (sorta).
It was going to be restored, but haven't heard anything about its condition, in many years.
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Posts: 1782
Location: calif | i have a few pixs of my partial 361" bendix setup,if someone wants to 'crop' them so they can be posted here,PM me with your email address |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Chuck; send 'em to me; I'll get them posted here, alright. |
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Expert
Posts: 2996
Location: Sept. 1958 | Desoto
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca |
Here's Charlie's pics; slightly smaller...
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | These photos were taken by a MT photog, in September 1957.
They were posted on page 116 of the "Photographs" thread, but they should be moved over here, to preserve their
presentation
Edited by d500neil 2012-12-22 7:29 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | And, just to recap, the PLY and Adventurer Fuelies found, to date:
Plymouth: a Belvedere and a Fury hardtop (immediately above; probably a prototype, but both are seen previously on this thread)
Adventurer: One white one (immediately above; probably a prototype, the gold hardtop, both are seen above) and Tom White's convertible).
300D: dunno how many of them (-their bodies) have survived.
Dodge: None documented to have survived.
Actually, does anyone know the story on that sorta-green Adventurer, on Page 1 of this thread?
Thought that the car's color might be from pigment shifting in its emulsion(a slide photo?), but, the surrounding grass, foliage and sky appear to be Kodachrome-correct, so that car might have been painted in that greenish color???
Edited by d500neil 2012-12-22 2:49 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | How about this for a rumor?
There HAD to have been one or more Corp Honchos, or maybe an influential owner, who had tried to get, or got, a Fuelie Imperial.
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Elite Veteran
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Location: NC | Man o Man. those pictured cars are some more beautiful!!!!
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Location: Montreal, Canada | d500neil - 2012-12-22 2:32 PM
These photos were taken by a MT photog, in September 1958.
They were posted on page 116 of the "Photographs" thread, but they should be moved over here, to preserve their
presentation
It's september 1957, not 1958. |
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Expert
Posts: 1728
Location: Fleetwood, Pa | Desoto headlite bezels are definitely silver in that picture. Just an observation, not related to this exact thread.....
It would be nice to start an "ARCHIVE" thread to post detail vintage photos of "original" cars so restorer's could visit that site to page through the photos to answer their questions about how to paint/restore items for their cars.......just a thought.....or is there already one and I'm missing it?
Edited by sidesho_bob1961 2012-12-23 7:01 AM
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Elite Veteran
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Location: NC | I just happened upon a few things that I had received in September from an engineer who was at Chrysler and who knew about the FI stuff. He sent me an article that was in Hemmings in 2004 and a copy of a 14 page "owners manual" for "The Bendix Electrojector" printed/copyright in 1956. He also mentioned a SAE technical paper that was presented Jan 15, 1957 on the FI system. I may be rehashing something but the Hemmings piece says that the cars were built with dual 4s and taken to the DeSoto plant on Warren Ave to be fitted with the FI system and a 40 amp generator. According to a Bendix manual, 2 Fury cars, 16 300 cars, 12 D500 cars & 5 DeSotos received the FI treatment. He also says that there is more on "www.allpar.com about the FI stuff. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Neil,
Another anecdote of a F/I Dodge.
A man selling parts at the Monroe Swap Meet 20 years ago told me he took the F/I emblems off
a car in a wrecking yard somewhere in SE Washington or NE Oregon a few years previous. When
pressed for details, he said he picked yards all over and could only nail it down that closely. He did
say they came off a Dodge.
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Location: Parts Unknown | sidesho_bob1961 - 2012-12-24 3:56 AM
Desoto headlite bezels are definitely silver in that picture.
It would be nice to start an "ARCHIVE" thread to post detail vintage photos of "original" cars so restorer's could
visit that site to answer their questions about how to paint/restore items for their cars .......
.....or is there already one and I'm missing it?
=======================================================
Argent was a new and widely used trim paint for 58 Mopars. All big DeSotos got Argent headlight "buckets"
for 58.
The postcard thread would certainly be a good place to start for period photos that might capture the kind of
car a restorer is looking for evidence of original finish on.
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Posts: 2524
Location: Houston | If he couldn't recall where he pulled the emblems, he probably also couldn't recall what type of car they came from. Plus, don't forget any Chrysler products can be correctly referred to as 'them Dodges'. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Thanks to tactical interrogation training, I felt his answers were pretty good. He knew his cars and knew
a 57 DeSoto from a 58, and a 57 Dodge from a 58. He also knew a Dodge from a DeSoto.
Perhaps you talked to him too and came away with a different impression ?
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Posts: 2996
Location: Sept. 1958 | Last Friday this manual showed up on eBay, it was listed for less than 15 minutes. The buy now price was $30. Filled with descriptions how each component works and many diagrams of each part, etc.
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Location: Victoria, BC, on Vancouver Island, Canada | You bought it then?!! |
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Posts: 2996
Location: Sept. 1958 | Yes, I was lucky to see it that early. When I can get my hands on anything FI related, I do.
The seller of this was in Michigan (go figure), as was the seller with the X part of the FI script I bought last year. They didn't have any other items relating to FI. |
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Regular
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Location: Home of the Gouverneur - Graz / Austria | And they never did test driving along streets with neon signs ? Just on factory test tracks ? |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: Victoria, BC, on Vancouver Island, Canada | You got yourself a prize there, for $30.00. I'm sure it's worth more! |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I may be wrong, but I thought that traffic lights also bothered the Fuelies' operation.
Nowadays, the "fix" to their paper-wrapped capacitors is relatively easy to accomplish.
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Location: Sept. 1958 | imopar380 - 2013-05-25 5:24 PM
You got yourself a prize there, for $30.00. I'm sure it's worth more!
I know, I probably would have paid much more. |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: Williams California | Great score, Matt!!!!!!!
---John |
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Location: Sept. 1958 | These air cleaner lids are for FI cars, the part number is not the same for dual quad cars. Although the lids were the same as carburetor ones, the bases were different, they were serviced together hence the different part number. These were found in GA but no bases.
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Location: Sept. 1958 | This passenger side exhaust manifold I believe is for 350/361 fuelie cars, as it has no heat riser valve. It does have a heat tube though for the cold start/ warm up sensor. Two of these, both NOS, were found in an old building in GA recently.
Edited by christine-lover 2013-12-09 7:27 PM
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Location: Seville, OH | Aside from the intake/engine mods, and the emblem, did the FI cars have any other mods, e.g.; gearing, suspension mods, brakes, etc? |
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Location: Sept. 1958 | Swept57 - 2013-12-10 10:21 PM
Aside from the intake/engine mods, and the emblem, did the FI cars have any other mods, e.g.; gearing, suspension mods, brakes, etc?
I don't believe so, they had the hi-po parts same as dual carb cars. |
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Posts: 3967
Location: DFW, TX | My understanding is they were built as standard performance models - 300 Ds, Adventurers, D500s, and Furys - and then modified afterwards (off the assembly line but still at the assembly plant) to use the fuel injection systems.
When the EFI systems were recalled, the dealers were instructed to replace the EFI setups with replacement dual four barrel carburetors and ignition systems that the cars had been built with originally.
Of course that doesn't explain the Belvedere! |
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Location: Fleetwood, Pa | No updates to this thread for a long time....
I just re-read the whole thread again. I remember when I talked to Tom White at Hershey one year (prior to him locating the Bendix Electrojector unit) that he could have painted his car two different ways when he restored it. Gold w/white spear or white w/gold spear, since technically is was shown at the various auto shows in both configurations (which auto companies did regularly). It was a lot cheaper to repaint a few cars then build multiple copies in different colors for the big auto shows throughout the year......
Therefore, we can probably assume that even though there are pictures of different color 58 Adverturer EFI convertibles in the above auto show photos, they're most likely the same car......maybe even Tom's old car... |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 398
Location: Watertown South Dakota | I just browsed this thread quick,,very interesting. I was at a guy's place a few years ago, he had a 58 Plymouth 4 door hardtop,,claimed it was a FI car. It was raining out, we never got close to the car and he wouldn't let me go and look at it. He was a huge Forward Look guy, knew his stuff. But, I sure would have liked to look under the hood. |
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| Nice Car. 
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Location: The Mile High City | A link to the 300D http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=68329&posts=32#M561158 |
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Veteran
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Location: South Australia | I have just re-read this thread, and it would have to be one of my favorites on here...what cool stories...
My two door hard-top Belvedere (57) still lurks in the shed, and probably will do for some time.
Originally it was going to be a red and white special, but i later changed my mind to doing a Fury tribute, but in black (it's not an original Fury, so i don't think it matters...but it is an original black car).
I am also keen to load it up with all the options i can, which brings me to this thread.I know i'll never get the chance to buy a genuine FI set up, but in the spirit,i see Holley do a two barrel throttle body set-up, which a pair would look very cool on my 318 poly...
The other part is ,did anyone ever have a go at re-producing the FI script?or would anyone be able to put-up or perhaps PM me some rough die mentions so i could look into re-producing a pair...i can only have a go...
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Watertown South Dakota | I haven't been on here much lately and just read part of this thread on the FI cars. I did find a fella with a bunch of FL cars and he had a 58 Plymouth 4 door hardtop that he claimed was a factory fuel injected car. It was raining hard and he didn't want to let me look at any of his cars up close, just did a drive by. Really didn't want to sell any either. I will have to look him up again, it has been a few years since I talked to him. |
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Location: Lubbock, TX | christine-lover - 2013-12-09 6:25 PM
This passenger side exhaust manifold I believe is for 350/361 fuelie cars, as it has no heat riser valve. It does have a heat tube though for the cold start/ warm up sensor. Two of these, both NOS, were found in an old building in GA recently.
My dad was lucky enough to purchase one of those NOS EFI Exhaust manifold sets. If anyone is in need of one for a Fuelie Forward Look car, send me a PM anytime. We can probably work out a deal.
~Peter |
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Member
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Location: New York, NY | So, other than that 300D that was up for sale a little while ago, has there been any major discoveries regarding these EFI cars? How about a definitive answer to the exact number of cars built?
Is Tom White's Adventurer still the only one with a working version of the system?
I'm interested in the difference in performance experienced by fuel injection vs. carburetors, because the EFI system was suppose to give these performance cars an extra 10 hp, but unless someone takes the Adventurer to the track, I don't think we'll ever really know the full potential of these fuel injected mopars.
Edited by Rock'nRoll 2018-08-12 3:53 PM
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Location: Parts Unknown | Quantifying what 10hp feels like at the throttle is hard to do.
A little cam adjustment, carb tuning, and installation of larger
valve heads gave my single 4bbl Fireflite a notably brisk level
of "perky" it did not have before I did the work.
I had hoped at one point to have my car done and in a place
where it could be run alongside the White-restored F/I Adventurer,
but it was not to be. My car had strong pull at any speed, but
was nothing like my 66 Coronet, with 440 Magnum, 4-speed,
and 3.23 posi gears. The DeSoto convertible is a heavy car !
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Location: So. Cal | Rock'nRoll - 2018-08-12 12:45 PM
So, other than that 300D that was up for sale a little while ago, has there been any major discoveries regarding these EFI cars? How about a definitive answer to the exact number of cars built?
Is Tom White's Adventurer still the only one with a working version of the system?......
My friend Per just got his 300D fuelie running with the original system in place. He used an aftermarket fuel pump because he didn't trust the original. I think the electronics have upgraded components too, but I don't know many details. He's still working on getting it to run reliably. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 594
Location: Melbourne, Australia | One vital piece of the Holy Grail ! https://www.ebay.com/itm/MOPAR-1832038-NAMEPLATE-FUEL-INJECTION-1958-PLYMOUTH-DODGE-DESOTO-300-EMBLEM/183374074575?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 Colin |
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Location: North Australia | That is sweet Nathan, you should ask him to post some pics/vid of his car on this thread. Steve. |
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Location: New York, NY | Very glad to hear that another FI car got converted back to fuel injection! So that's one Adventurer and one 300D, now all we need is for someone to find one of the mythical and elusive FI D-500's and for the FI Fury to resurface (I believe someone on this site said one of the two Fury's was still around).
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Location: The Mile High City | There were rumors of a EFI D-500 found upside down, resting on its roof. Never seen images, never seen a data plate - just vapors. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 496
| Per’s Fuel Injected 300D. He used the original intake manifold and throttle bodies/air cleaners. The injectors, computer, and fuel rail are new/custom built. It has a custom built crank trigger, air temp sensor, and a lot of other one off parts. It’s a great and effective melding of original parts and modern (reliable) technology. The timing, idle speed, and fuel/air mixture were all set with a laptop computer. It runs fast and smooth. Per has a couple of issues (dirt in the fuel), so he replaced a couple of the injectors, cleaned the tank and lines, and it seems to be running better all the time.
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Location: Parts Unknown | Lancer Mike - 2018-08-14 8:24 PM
There were rumors of a EFI D-500 found upside down, resting on its roof. Never seen images, never seen a data plate - just vapors.
=================================
It seems a F/I Dodge saw it's end in a wrecking yard somewhere in
NE Oregon or SE Washington. I heard of this car from a picker that
had the F/I emblems. When asked where the rest of the car was, he
was unable to say exactly where, but that he had taken them off a car
in that general area while he was on a picking trip. Before his passing,
Neil Vedder traingulated this information through others who had seen
the car. However, specifics of location or if the car survived have eluded
us.
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Location: North Australia | Shoot, I'm pretty slow off the mark..............
This is Per's car, associated with Jay L. Thanks for posting the pics C-300, (and laying the bait Nate!). I hope they do a segment on this car too. It's good to see and hear someone is resurrecting this Chrysler technology. It's so rare almost no-one knows about it except us FL mob.
The car looks good. Keen to see more of it.
Steve.
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Location: The Mile High City | I expected to see more of that perforated metal cover stuff all over that engine - great to see another running EFI car! |
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Location: Newark, Texas (Fort Worth) | Lancer Mike - 2018-08-14 8:48 PM
I expected to see more of that perforated metal cover stuff all over that engine - great to see another running EFI car!
Same here. If I duplicate the engine, I would make it look as 'original' as possible Maybe put the brain box someplace safe, but make it seem real. He has a nice start there. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 496
| The perforated metal was only used on one show car and were not intended for the production cars. Per has, however, shown interest in making a set of shields for his car. Collecting all of the pieces (which took him a decade) was the biggest challenge. Getting it running took months of work and a specialist flown in from Europe. The shields are the easy part... just not necessary.
Aaron |
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Location: Newark, Texas (Fort Worth) | https://www.ebay.com/itm/MOPAR-1832038-NAMEPLATE-FUEL-INJECTION-1958...
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Member
Posts: 10
| 1959 EFI manifold?
I'm new here, I just joined, this discussion was linked in a discussion on an EFI 300D on For C Bodies Only.
I realize this is a 4-year-old thread, and this is somewhat of a hijack - but I think you'll understand and forgive.
What I have:
I have an EFI manifold that is reportedly a 1959 version.
It's a cast-iron dual-plane EFI intake, fits the B-block engines, and is configured for a 4-throat throttle body.
The plenum pattern is completely different from a modern 4V carb. Perhaps it matches the WCFB, but I have no way to know.
If it did match the WCFB, that would permit easy retrofit back to a carb (perhaps the engineers were planning ahead???)
I am hoping to find a factory engineer that worked on that program, but with every passing year that becomes less likely to happen.
The backstory:
20-ish years ago a buddy sent me a link to an unusual intake manifold on ebay. (my buddy was fabulous for finding unique things on there)
We kinda knew what it was, but not exactly. I placed a Hail-Mary bid and via a miracle it became mine. That began a periodic search for info, like an adopted kid trying to find his birth parents.
The ebay seller said he got it in the trunk of a car he got from a guy known as Desoto-____. I don't remember the name though. Desoto-Bob, maybe, or Desoto-Joe?
IIRC it was intended for 59 for the lower-priced cars, but when EFI failed in 58 they abandoned future programs, of course.
I suppose it could've been a prototype for 58 Desoto instead of the twin 2-throat TBs, but no way to know at this point.
I've emailed with a few folks over the years, but haven't found someone who actually knows about this intake
10+ years ago I spoke with Tom White, former owner of the EFI Adventurer, but he did not have any info on this intake.
Anyone here have any knowledge, or know someone I could contact?
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Location: The Mile High City | Welcome to the forums, Fury Fan! Mysterious! Some images may help along with part numbers... |
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Member
Posts: 10
| Thanks for the welcome!
Photo posted.
Had to research how to post a picture here, not as intuitive as other sites I frequent.
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Posts: 1316
Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels | Hi Fury Fan,
Nice story, but I doubt it's really what you think it is.
First of all, a prototype intake would not have a casting number, nor would it be released to the public.
But more importantly, the FI system Mopar developed at the time was NOT a throttle body fuel injection, but a direct one.
The 1958 FI intake had 8 separate ports for each injector, which is not the case on this intake.
See here : https://www.allpar.com/threads/1958-chrysler-desoto-electrojector-wo...
Edited by Chrome58 2022-10-25 12:10 PM
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Posts: 3967
Location: DFW, TX | I took a look through all of the '58 through '65 parts books, and did not find a reference to an intake with a 1947 142 part number (please verify that's what it says).
https://mymopar.com/parts-manuals/
The carburetor (throttle body?) bolt pattern looks like the "square" 3 3/4" x 3 7/8" pattern used by the early WCFBs, up through about 1958. Some early Holleys used this pattern too. Later WCFBs and most AFB/AVS carburetors used the more common 4 1/4" x 5 5/8" pattern.
The only thing that looks weird about that intake are the holes above each intake runner. You didn't mention it, but I suspect those are open to the port, correct? So you're thinking it is something like a port EFI arrangement? The intake runners on the '58 EFI cars were arranged that way but had thick bosses that supported the injectors.
It makes sense they would have eventually gone to a single-four pattern if the pilot program was successful... but it was not, and they knew it wasn't very quickly. I can't tell you what that intake is exactly, but I would need to find some more evidence to say it had anything to do with the EFI program. It is interesting though, hopefully someone here can help! Thanks for sharing.
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Posts: 10
| Chrome58 - 2022-10-25 11:31 AM
Hi Fury Fan,
Nice story, but I doubt it's really what you think it is.
First of all, a prototype intake would not have a casting number, nor would it be released to the public.
But more importantly, the FI system Mopar developed at the time was NOT a throttle body fuel injection, but a direct one.
The 1958 FI intake had 8 separate ports for each injector, which is not the case on this intake.
See here : https://www.allpar.com/threads/1958-chrysler-desoto-electrojector-wo...
Although I am speculating on its purpose based on some 2nd-hand info, there's no doubt (to me, anyway) that it's an authentic Chrysler part.
This is a port-EFI manifold like the 58, although it is cast differently at the injector area (hard to discern in that photo, though).
And a single throttle body (vs 1958's dual) is certainly a logical 'next year' cost-reduction. (fewer parts, simpler linkage, labor savings on the assy line, etc)
I called it prototype, but perhaps pre-production is more correct.
I don't know Chrysler's traditions back then, but when I worked for an automotive OEM, we did put casting#s on prototype parts (it is simple for the foundry to do, and no engineering or testing can occur on something with no part#).
Prototype items did also escape out the back door sometimes - which is what I suspect happened with this one.
57burb - 2022-10-25 6:02 PM
I took a look through all of the '58 through '65 parts books, and did not find a reference to an intake with a 1947 142 part number (please verify that's what it says ).
https://mymopar.com/parts-manuals/
The carburetor (throttle body? ) bolt pattern looks like the "square" 3 3/4" x 3 7/8" pattern used by the early WCFBs, up through about 1958. Some early Holleys used this pattern too. Later WCFBs and most AFB/AVS carburetors used the more common 4 1/4" x 5 5/8" pattern.
The only thing that looks weird about that intake are the holes above each intake runner. You didn't mention it, but I suspect those are open to the port, correct? So you're thinking it is something like a port EFI arrangement? The intake runners on the '58 EFI cars were arranged that way but had thick bosses that supported the injectors.
It makes sense they would have eventually gone to a single-four pattern if the pilot program was successful... but it was not, and they knew it wasn't very quickly. I can't tell you what that intake is exactly, but I would need to find some more evidence to say it had anything to do with the EFI program. It is interesting though, hopefully someone here can help! Thanks for sharing.
Yes, you read the casting# correctly. I would not expect you to find it in the parts manuals either, as it didn't make it to production (I think that is a foregone conclusion).
Out of curiosity - what are the 2 closest part #s, (lower and higher), I wonder if there is a block of #s missing, which might suggest other EFI parts were engineered (like the throttle body, maybe an air cleaner base).
Also - what model year do other 1947xxx part number birth into? (I assume Chrysler used a simple odometer system for part#s).
When I get some spare time, I may check that early WCFB pattern and see if it matches.
You correct, the 8 holes are open to the intake runner, and are threaded at 1/2-20. The flat area, where the holes are, is raised and thick, so different than the cast-in bosses on the 1958. I do not know what the original injector fittings would have looked like, but I had a machinist friend make me 8 fittings that will hold modern 'Bosch-type' injectors. Interestingly, all the 1958 photos show that the injectors and fuel rails are threaded together, so there are no hold-downs that are required with O-ringed bosses/injectors.
So as I said to Chrome58 - if it's not what it seems to be, what is it?
It's not a photoshop, it's not been modified, it has all the look/feel of an authentic article that my 25+ years of non-expert Chrysler experience can assess.
The photo above is as I received it, it is fully machined and all holes are tapped, I have bolted it onto a 383 and it fits perfectly (or it seems to, I don't know if it seals, but it does not rock back and forth).
I haven't even painted it.
Hence why I'm hoping an engineer, or someone intimate to that dept, will see this.
Edited by fury fan 2022-10-26 4:24 PM
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Location: So. Cal | I suspect that those holes were used for early testing of EGR systems, not fuel injection. It would need to have a machined face to be used for fuel injection, and there's no reason for them to have made a second EFI manifold when they already had one to use for that purpose. |
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Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels | fury fan - 2022-10-26 10:22 PM
Yes, you read the casting# correctly. I would not expect you to find it in the parts manuals either, as it didn't make it to production (I think that is a foregone conclusion).
Out of curiosity - what are the 2 closest part #s, (lower and higher), I wonder if there is a block of #s missing, which might suggest other EFI parts were engineered (like the throttle body, maybe an air cleaner base).
Also - what model year do other 1947xxx part number birth into? (I assume Chrysler used a simple odometer system for part#s).
The casting numbers were never listed in the parts manuals, so the conclusion is not as clear as that.
The 19xx xxx parts numbers appeared with the 1958 models (some body mouldings for the 1958 Imperial, for example, started at 1900 308).
It's a common misconception to think that the 2nd digit refered to the model year, when in fact, it was a simple odometer system, like you stated.
The 1955-1958 parts manual (january 1961 issue) lists references up to 1981 815. Of course, some of them were parts renumbered, but a lot of them were there from the start.
As of proximity of references, the 1959 parts manual list around 1947 102 contains mainly the radiator fan area, crankshaft, chain case ... Nothing related to intake.
But, again, it's normal since casting numbers were different than part numbers, and not listed in parts manual.
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| Thanks for that info.
If I'm understanding that picture correctly, there are 4 notable gaps in published part#s with about 300 part# missing - meaning, not available for purchase.
Those could be sub-component assemblies used for assy line manufacture, that would not be sold to a customer in that assembled state (like wheel + valve stem + tire + air + balancing + lugnuts).
And it would also include parts that didn't make it to production, for a variety of reasons.
Out of curiousity - are any of the 300D's EFI parts in the parts catalog? I wonder if those were intentionally not published in order to keep that system under some sort of engineering/factory control. |
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| Powerflite - 2022-10-26 5:17 PM
I suspect that those holes were used for early testing of EGR systems, not fuel injection. It would need to have a machined face to be used for fuel injection, and there's no reason for them to have made a second EFI manifold when they already had one to use for that purpose.
As EGR was an emissions thing, and not introduced until '74 or so, would they really have been testing that 15 years earlier? PVC valves weren't even widespread yet, and that's much simpler, requires no engine response/tuning like EGR does.
I don't think it would've needed a machined face, the injectors on the twin-2 setups shown above are threaded in place, and those threads would merely need a sealer of some sort (or maybe they have a gasket to the cast-in boss, it's hard to tell). This manifold is the same principle, but with smaller holes. Regardless, I have adapter fittings that seal modern injectors on their O-rings, just needs thread sealer on them to seal against engine vacuum.
Yes, no reason to make a 2nd B-engine manifold - unless it was for cost reduction like I was told?
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Location: Sept. 1958 | Very interesting. It looks like the area to bolt the choke has been voided with a boss, is that correct? Companies did test and build things that they never wanted the public to see. Perhaps this was another experiment at fuel injection, this time a bit simpler with one throttle body. Not related to Chrysler Corp though, even in their final years, Packard made a prototype fuel injection for their V8 which exist in a private collection. Reason I mention this is because they never mentioned they were working on it to the public and it escaped and was not destroyed. It wouldn’t be surprising that companies work on things that they never had planned and announced to put out in the foreseeable future. |
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Location: Okielahoma | The size of the threaded ports does remind me of the Ford Thermactor system (1965) the right size for air/vacuum lines, but their location was in the head itself right under the valve cover, quite the mystery. |
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| christine-lover - 2022-10-28 5:46 PM
Very interesting. It looks like the area to bolt the choke has been voided with a boss, is that correct? Companies did test and build things that they never wanted the public to see. Perhaps this was another experiment at fuel injection, this time a bit simpler with one throttle body. Not related to Chrysler Corp though, even in their final years, Packard made a prototype fuel injection for their V8 which exist in a private collection. Reason I mention this is because they never mentioned they were working on it to the public and it escaped and was not destroyed. It wouldn’t be surprising that companies work on things that they never had planned and announced to put out in the foreseeable future.
Yes, there is something that resembles a divorced choke, and it has passages that are open to the heat crossover ports in the cylinder heads. (both sides of intake have crossover openings)
I find them curious, as modern port EFI typically does not use heat crossover, as it is not required. But with the less-sophisticated capability of the electronics, perhaps heat was still required for warmup.
As for experimental stuff escaping - at work I saw 2 LS-based GM V-10 engines around 2010 but they stayed in storage.
That program was aborted, so the engines were to be scrapped, but I heard strong rumor that one (or both) was 'rescued' out the back door.
5-ish years later there were some internet reports of GM V10 engines out in public hands.
It happens.
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Location: Sept. 1958 | If it has a heat crossover than I would doubt FI application. The production one had no heat crossover. I used to have an NOS right side exhaust manifold for a B block. You can see photos in the past posts on this thread. I sold it in 2018. This was same as a dual quad manifold except no provision for heat valve, but the 58 FI cars had the same port in the manifold that went to a tube for the cold/warm sensor (similar to choke tube).
I talked to a guy at Hershey a couple years ago who worked for GM but had recently retired, after mentioning to him that I was a GM tech, he told me 1 or 2 Suburbans had a larger engine installed for testing, big wigs at GM, I forgot if it was V10 or V12 though. |
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| Yeah, saw the non-crossover exh manifold pictures, that was new info to me. And would make sense, as that is just elimination of a machining operation and some parts.
The most-common reports of the system issues were the electronics capability and/or relating to EMI from street lighting.
But I don't think we can rule out that there may have been other drivability issues, and that maybe they thought heated air might help solve it in the next iteration?
I'm making guesses with my 2022 knowledge about 1957-1958, without being able to know what they did (or did not) know.
Maybe it was a special casting for a WCFB and the tapped holes are for nitrous oxide. Did they have NOS back then??? :-)
Anyhow, it's all just speculation. Still really hoping to find someone that actually has seen it before, and knows what this manifold is. |
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Location: DFW, TX | Maybe it's Mopar's attempt at something like this..?  
https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/hrdp-1009-what-ever-happened-to-sm... |
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| Ah, yes, the homogenizer from years ago.
Thanks for that link, gonna read that a few times. |
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Location: So. Cal | I hadn't heard of the homogenizer before, but it makes sense in principle. Much of the energy from combustion exits into the exhaust and water. If you can use that heat to expand the incoming gases, then you can effectively create extra pressure in the combustion chamber out of waste heat. The part about controlling the burn rate of hydrogen at super elevated temperatures makes it sound like the hydrogen is turning into a plasma before/as it burns. Interesting stuff. |
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Location: Ramona, CA | fury fan - 2022-10-24 6:18 PM
1959 EFI manifold?
Can you share a picture of the bottom of the manifold? Has anyone seen a regular manifold with those flattened runners where the holes are drilled? |
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| Here you go.
You can't tell it from the pics, but the runner does taper down to the cyl head as normal.
Meaning, there are more threads nearer the outer edge of the manifold.
1 runner has a Bosch injector in it, the other is open. The shiny circles seen vs the cast iron are the injector adapters I had made.
Edited by fury fan 2022-10-30 11:56 AM
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Location: Hilltown, PA | I'm surprised no one has commented about the 9th hole - the one in the drivers side of the exhaust crossover passage. It appears to be the same size as the ones in the intake, and I'm guessing that it is also threaded as the others are. While I agree that a port style fuel injection manifold would be unlikely to have the exhaust crossover intact, I find it curious that not only is the crossover present (even though the choke heater pad was abbreviated) but obviously there was some ultimate reason to leave it in place as the exhaust was clearly being directed somewhere outside of the intake itself.
Perhaps this was a test manifold, used to allow monitoring of temperatures at each intake port and in the crossover? Remember, our understanding of internal engine dynamics is exponentially greater than it was back then - the ability to read temps in the intake runners would have been cutting edge science at the time.
I also have to wonder if this might be a manifold designed for some type of propane system. Propane was very common on agricultural equipment at the time, and its relatively low cost and availability might have led Chrysler to consider a propane fuel option. Given that they already had some experience with port fuel injection, perhaps they were considering a similar set up for propane. The use of an off the shelf carburetor throttle body would be in keeping with the economy aim of such a project, and that single exhaust fitting might have been the connection to some kind of cold start enrichment/warm up regulator, as normal choke operation isn't effective with propane.
Your installation of the modern Bosch injectors is very cool, but I have to wonder about one thing - the pintle of those injectors seems very deep in the bores. I would be concerned that the relatively wide spray pattern of the Bosch injector would impinge on the side of the bore and lead to extreme puddling and basically uncontrollable fuel mixture . . .
Gregg
Edited by LostDeere59 2022-11-07 3:47 PM
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| Yes, I've wondered about that hole and the crossover passage also.
Although - exhaust-heated air would surely help in warmup in cold climate, rather than just dumping more fuel. I have wondered if that was a learning item from the prior-year's configuration.
Propane is an interesting thought also. I don't have much knowledge of that to consider it any deeper.
Keen eye on the injector depth. I have considered that, and there are various spray patterns available in Bosch-type injectors. If I ever get this thing onto an engine, I'll be looking for a set of pencil-spray injectors.
Aside from the adapter fittings, the shot to the intake valve (which most EFI literature says the injector sprays upon the 'hot' intake valve) is quite a distance and around a corner from the injector - so it's a compromise for sure.
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Location: Newark, Texas (Fort Worth) | Still looking for an intake manifold. Got these from Danny: (the one on the computer) Repros from Missouri.
Edited by mstrug 2023-11-04 11:57 AM
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