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Elite Veteran
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | sounds like my 241 hemi has come up with a rod knock.. does not make noise until rps are up there .
I noticed it today taking a road trip to a car show and heard it knocking at 55 mph . mostly between 50 and 60 mph .
would it be possible to drop the pan and install new bearings or......?
just what I need to start the summer off. 
Edited by dodge59 2013-06-02 7:50 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
   
Location: bishop, ca | John, you can look on the bright side [of life; M. Python] and go buy some nasty condition 50's distributor, or go sweet-
talk Big M, here, into selling/giving you a parts-dissie's light weight return spring.
That spring will allow your car's OEM dissie to increase its advance rate, quickly, for faster acceleration.
Then, because your IAZ 4003F dissie has dual points in it, you can buy Pertronix's "Ignitor 1383" hidden-under-cap
electronic ignition and install it, for overall better reliability and better MPG (hotter spark) than the IAZ guy provides.
With both the lighter weight spring and the 1383, you can dial in about 8/9 degrees of engine-advance (instead of the
wimpy 4-degrees of OEM-advance), to get you 8/9 + 24(built-in Mechanical Advancement)= 32/33 degrees of total
Mechanical advancement + 14 degrees of OEM Vacuum Advancement = 46/47 degrees of Total Advancement.
Hopefully, your OEM V.A. still works; suck on its orifice to hear/feel if its diaphram is moving, and check out the dissie's
shaft bearing condition, too.
Edited by d500neil 2013-06-02 8:32 PM
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Expert 5K+
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Location: Perth Australia | Neil
What has all that really great dizzy info have to do with the poor bloke suspecting he has a stuffed big end bearing?
Anyway, If it has developed a big end knock, from what I have seen, it most likely will have damaged the bearing surface a bit.
Obviously, cant tell till the pan is off and the cap removed, but I think you would be very lucky to get away with just a set of bearings
Sorry
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | What's it got to do is simply this: while his/your car is 'down' he/you can make other repairs and upgrades to it
without otherwise losing driving time, during its repair time.
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | d500neil - 2013-06-02 7:27 PM
John, you can look on the bright side [of life; M. Python] and go buy some nasty condition 50's distributor, or go sweet-
talk Big M, here, into selling/giving you a parts-dissie's light weight return spring.
That spring will allow your car's OEM dissie to increase its advance rate, quickly, for faster acceleration.
Then, because your IAZ 4003F dissie has dual points in it, you can buy Pertronix's "Ignitor 1383" hidden-under-cap
electronic ignition and install it, for overall better reliability and better MPG (hotter spark) than the IAZ guy provides.
With both the lighter weight spring and the 1383, you can dial in about 8/9 degrees of engine-advance (instead of the
wimpy 4-degrees of OEM-advance), to get you 8/9 + 24(built-in Mechanical Advancement)= 32/33 degrees of total
Mechanical advancement + 14 degrees of OEM Vacuum Advancement = 46/47 degrees of Total Advancement.
Hopefully, your OEM V.A. still works; suck on its orifice to hear/feel if its diaphram is moving, and check out the dissie's
shaft bearing condition, too.
neil
That is exactly what I am going to do with the other improvements I asked about previously in other posts .. Thanks again !
Edited by dodge59 2013-06-02 9:42 PM
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | d500neil - 2013-06-02 7:58 PM
What's it got to do is simply this: while his/your car is 'down' he/you can make other repairs and upgrades to it
without otherwise losing driving time, during its repair time.
right neil ! |
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Expert
Posts: 1740
Location: Alaska | dodge59, If what you are hearing is indeed a rod knock, it has been my experience that by the time you hear it the crank is probably already scored but you can try to drop the pan and change the bearings. |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | with a rod knock , you'd be lucky to not need a new or diff, crank but possibly it could be a wrist pin knock ----------------------------------------------------later |
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Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | All guess work until some pulls the pan and checks the lower end, then we can give some meaningful advice. |
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | Shep - 2013-06-03 6:39 PM
All guess work until some pulls the pan and checks the lower end, then we can give some meaningful advice.
well.... here we go...........
Got the pan down and #8 cyl rod bearing was sloppy
had the speed shop here help me out with what I need to do.. he says the correct way to do it would be to rebuild the whole engine.. well.........
appears a 30 thousandths under bearing will cure the knock.. no telling how long it would last but will to give it a shot. .. The crank was not scored anywhere. hopefully I caught it time with just a bearing replaement.
I miced up the crank journal and it was 1.9055 + or -
standard shaft diameter is 1.936-1-1.937 so.. 30 thousandths under should work fine.
john |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | anyone know where I can purchase the rod bearings for the 241 hemi ? seen one on ebay and hothemiheads so far.
Edited by dodge59 2013-06-03 11:54 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | http://hothemiheads.com/
Or:
http://www.egge.com/
Edited by d500neil 2013-06-04 2:23 AM
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Expert
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Location: N.W. Fla. | "Wayfarer" here on the Board is Quality Engeneereed Components, check with him. also maybe Rock Auto, NAPA. |
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Expert
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Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Better check that #8 rod carefully. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | Thanks guys !
napa $160 . hothemiheads $140 , ebay $100.00 .. and egge nothing for the 241 hemi
shep.
I will check the #8 rod
Edited by dodge59 2013-06-04 11:16 AM
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | ordered bearings and gaskets up from ebay user falconglobal..
Thanks everyone !
john |
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Location: N.W. Fla. | dodge59 - 2013-06-04 10:14 AM
Thanks guys !
napa $160 . hothemiheads $140 , ebay $100.00 .. and egge nothing for the 241 hemi
shep.
I will check the #8 rod Check directly(call) QEC, he has stuff that's not on the site. |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: Perth Australia | This sounds strange to me
How does a crank big end bearing jernal shrink by 30 thou and remain round and not pound the crap out of the bearing?
Do you think maybe, that bearings may have been mixed up somehow during recent a rebuild?
Most times (not all) they do not re size conrod sizes, they only change the crank size, so I would think that if the conrod big end is larger than std, that the hole (with the cap tightened to the rod) could be egg shaped and a new rod would be in order.
I spun a big end bearing in an old mark 1 ford escort once and tried just changing the rod and a bearing (I got a 10 thou one) and when I started it, it went for about 3 min and started knocking again (that was the end for that car, it was a cheapy anyway).
As much as a rebuild is not cheap (having just done my poly), a broken rod and a hole in the side of the block on a hemi (look in earlee Bobs thread on his desoto) would be almost catastrophic.
I know this is not what you would like to hear, but the costs of a crank re grind and a set of crank bearings ect is a lot cheaper than an entire engine and you most likely will get away with not having to do the top end (if that was ok before), but whatever way you go, triple check your oil galleries, as its really strange for 1 bearing to go if it did not loose oil.
Food for thought
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | dodge59 - 2013-06-04 11:41 AM
Shep - 2013-06-03 6:39 PM
All guess work until some pulls the pan and checks the lower end, then we can give some meaningful advice.
well.... here we go...........
Got the pan down and #8 cyl rod bearing was sloppy
had the speed shop here help me out with what I need to do.. he says the correct way to do it would be to rebuild the whole engine.. well.........
appears a 30 thousandths under bearing will cure the knock.. no telling how long it would last but will to give it a shot. .. The crank was not scored anywhere. hopefully I caught it time with just a bearing replaement.
I miced up the crank journal and it was 1.9055 + or -
standard shaft diameter is 1.936-1-1.937 so.. 30 thousandths under should work fine.
john
.....
Hope I'm not reading this wrong but ...........
You'd be VERY lucky if it was such a quick fix as just replacing a bearing and be on your way especially for many miles to come.
Are they talking, get a 30 thou under bearing and just fitting it to the existing crank as is ?? whack on the pan and drive away?
It'd be a fix maybe if you were in the middle of no-where and just had to get back on your way but for long term driving I'd be checking and doing a lot more than just that.
30 thou is a lot of wear when we are talking this sort of stuff.
Did the shop that checked your crank check it for ovality and taper ? . Usually when a bearing knocks to that point is has ( as ttotired said ) pounded and worn the upper TDC area and lower BDC area of the crank because of the piston reciprocation direction changes where the bearing and crank pin is subject to it's highest loadings ( especially TDC on firing ). This creates ovality on the crank pin.
All engines I have ever worked on presenting a bearing knock have had crank pin ovality that can only be rectified by machining, or pin welding and re-machine ( expensive ) or a replacement crank.
It even happens on engines showing no knocking symptoms.
As far as a re-build that the shop advises , yeah , maybe, but sometimes rebuild may not always be necessary, sometimes just a refresh will do. Won't know until a tear down and measure of parts.
Perhaps if in doubt it may pay to completely rebuild as labor cost would only be a bit cheaper for a refresh compared to a rebuild.
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Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Hard to believe any decent shop would recommend resizing only one journal especially on an old engine that surely has some clean up necessary on the rest, we hope!! |
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Location: N.W. Fla. | 241s aren't known for overly strong cranks in high performance situations. You should have all the journals turned the same amount & check the mains while it's out. Add a damper while you're @ it. |
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Location: NY & VT | In fact 241s and early hemis in general were farily notorious for broken crankshafts. |
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Veteran
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Location: Fort Providence Northwest Territories Canada | Is it just one journal that is 30 under or has the crank been turned to 30 under at some point and that is the size of all journals. If that is the case then it appears that the bearing took all of the wear and started knocking. I would put the new bearing in if all journals were at 30 under and there was no scoring. If it starts to knock again then your in for a rebuild. But you will know fairly quickly if the repair will work or not.
I have got away with a single bearing replacement on probably about 5 engines (one was a large diesel tractor) and they all kept going for years. But I have also had 2 that didn't work out. One was a 351, 73 Ford LTD and the other a 21 Model T.
Worth the try in my opinion if there is no scoring on the crank.
Dave |
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Walter passed away on Jul 29, 2014. We will miss you, Walt!
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Location: Heaven Above (Formerly Oklahoma City,OK) | I'd dayum sure pull the caps off the other 7 rods, and maybe even the front and rear main bearings to see what they looked like before I changed one (1) rod bearing..... But I didn't start building engines until about 1948, and I'm sure those kids in the local speed shop have more experience.
Edited by wbower3 2013-06-05 12:55 PM
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | ttotired - 2013-06-04 7:33 PM
This sounds strange to me
How does a crank big end bearing jernal shrink by 30 thou and remain round and not pound the crap out of the bearing?
Do you think maybe, that bearings may have been mixed up somehow during recent a rebuild?
Most times (not all) they do not re size conrod sizes, they only change the crank size, so I would think that if the conrod big end is larger than std, that the hole (with the cap tightened to the rod) could be egg shaped and a new rod would be in order.
I spun a big end bearing in an old mark 1 ford escort once and tried just changing the rod and a bearing (I got a 10 thou one) and when I started it, it went for about 3 min and started knocking again (that was the end for that car, it was a cheapy anyway).
As much as a rebuild is not cheap (having just done my poly), a broken rod and a hole in the side of the block on a hemi (look in earlee Bobs thread on his desoto) would be almost catastrophic.
I know this is not what you would like to hear, but the costs of a crank re grind and a set of crank bearings ect is a lot cheaper than an entire engine and you most likely will get away with not having to do the top end (if that was ok before), but whatever way you go, triple check your oil galleries, as its really strange for 1 bearing to go if it did not loose oil.
Food for thought
this hemi has 72k original miles on it.. pretty slugged up inside.. when I took the pan off there waere no shaving or pieces .. seen just a little silver in one area ,, but there was a half inch of sludge on the bottom of the pan in the deepest area. last owner told me this car sat in storage for 20 + years .. that is what usually happens to oil when it sits for 20 years .
The speedshop hasn't seen the engine except for the rodcap and bearings off #8 cyl.. they don't recommend doing a quick fix to any engine.. I'm the one trying fix the issue without going thru a complete rebuild .. I just don't have 5k to blow right now.
the speed shop told me that rod bearing spun .. I miced the rod journal and .030 would bring it back to spec. that's why so much material off the bearing .
Edited by dodge59 2013-06-05 1:49 PM
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Expert 5K+
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Location: Perth Australia | Just would hate to see you throw away good money and time on a fix that, if your lucky, will last a week or 2.
I am sure that a set of bearings and a crank re grind will not cost you 5000, but its your engine and to do the crank is a lot of work.
Do you think it might be a good idea to get an engine machine shop to measure your con rod?
If the bearing spun, theres a good chance the big end is not the right size (or shape) anymore
Best of luck
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | ttotired - 2013-06-05 5:46 PM
Just would hate to see you throw away good money and time on a fix that, if your lucky, will last a week or 2.
I am sure that a set of bearings and a crank re grind will not cost you 5000, but its your engine and to do the crank is a lot of work.
Do you think it might be a good idea to get an engine machine shop to measure your con rod?
If the bearing spun, theres a good chance the big end is not the right size (or shape) anymore
Best of luck
kind of hard to measure the rod ends when they are still in the engine and working on my back with the car up on jack stands with the oil pan off.
going to roll the dice on this one . 50 -50 chance it may hold together.
yes ....... as I mentioned it did spin that bearing... I'm going to remove all the
other caps and see what they look like and mic them all up.. maybe someone has done some work in there before .
Edited by dodge59 2013-06-05 8:28 PM
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Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | If the bearing spun in the rod, do not just reuse that rod, period! |
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Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | ..........
I completely understand your position with funding, I too weigh up the cost of this and that as opposed to a cheaper alternative nearly all the time, bills, mortgage and the cost of living causes this default option over the years.
Some repair situations can work out OK by sticking with a cheaper and less time consuming plan and others won't.
Based on what I'm reading, and if I'm reading it correctly, I just don't think the repair direction you may be looking at ( or your machine shop ) is going to work for very long if at all.
The apparent 30 thou wear on the crank is a hell of a lot or wear.
It may work, but I feel there is a slim chance of that.
At the very bare minimum if it were my engine, I'd pull it and remove and check all crank journals and rods and go from there.
Like others have said , I'd hate to see you flinging money and time around for a quick fix only to find it may not work and your money is wasted. Granted, there is a slim chance it may be OK, but if not, the money to date would go a fair way towards a fix that will ease your mind knowing that you should have more reliable engine from it.
If it works, great , and I'm happy to eat my words, humble pie don't taste too bad I'm told 
Good luck with what ever direction you take.
......
....
Edited by VAN HELSING 2013-06-06 7:31 PM
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Location: Perth Australia | I really do wish you the best of luck with it
I dont really think its 50/50, but I have seen others get away with stuff that I know, if I did it, would come back and bite me.
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | Thank you guys for all your feedback ........ sure do appreciate it.
I'm looking at it this way .. it cost me $100 for bearings and a gasket .. either it works or doesn't work . I can live with that.
another thought was , Say I go ahead and do the crank, rods and new bearings and it happens again because of oil starvation ..( maybe oil galleries plugged or what ever.) I'd be more ticked off after spendings That $$ vs just replacing that bad bearing.. .
another alturnative would be to purchase another redram 241 that is still running good and install it for now. imo.
anyway .... I'll see where this goes as soon as I see what the other bearing look like .
Edited by dodge59 2013-06-06 7:59 PM
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Location: Jamaica Plain, MA | I'm a little confused. You have the crank out now? Why not get it turned and replace the bearings to turned spec, and maybe change your compression and oil control rings while you're there? You could also run the oil pump with the crank out and see if #8 is getting fed. It's a little more work for a more comprehensive job. |
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | JT Vincent - 2013-06-07 12:23 PM
I'm a little confused. You have the crank out now? Why not get it turned and replace the bearings to turned spec, and maybe change your compression and oil control rings while you're there? You could also run the oil pump with the crank out and see if #8 is getting fed. It's a little more work for a more comprehensive job.
jt
the engine and crank all assembled still with the pan off and number 8 rod cap and bearing off. that's it.
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | update .
installed the .030 under bearing in #8 and could not move the crank .. it would not budge.
so............ guess the rod journal is egg shaped... engine is ready to come out .. may just do the crank, rods and bearing , can't afford a complete rebuild now. we'll see $$.
anyone out there have a nice running 241 - 270 hemi redram for sale ? othwise she is going to the repair shop.
thanks !
john
Edited by dodge59 2013-06-08 11:49 PM
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Expert
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Location: N.W. Fla. | Another thing to consider while saving up your $s is the C/R. At 241 you're looking at tiny displacement & low C/R. The nominal C/R is 7 or 7.1:1, patheticly low, & one 241 was measured at an actual 6.19:1 It would be worth the investment to get custom forged pistons in the 9 or 10:1 area. |
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | Mopar1 - 2013-06-09 7:56 AM
Another thing to consider while saving up your $s is the C/R. At 241 you're looking at tiny displacement & low C/R. The nominal C/R is 7 or 7.1:1, patheticly low, & one 241 was measured at an actual 6.19:1 It would be worth the investment to get custom forged pistons in the 9 or 10:1 area.
that would increase hp and tq for sure which it needs ,, but on the other hand I like to get descent gas mileage for this cruiser . I get 24 mpg now with the hemi , would that suffer then ?
off hand .......do you know who might carry higher compression pistons ? |
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Location: N.W. Fla. | dodge59 - 2013-06-09 10:31 AM
Mopar1 - 2013-06-09 7:56 AM
Another thing to consider while saving up your $s is the C/R. At 241 you're looking at tiny displacement & low C/R. The nominal C/R is 7 or 7.1:1, patheticly low, & one 241 was measured at an actual 6.19:1 It would be worth the investment to get custom forged pistons in the 9 or 10:1 area.
that would increase hp and tq for sure which it needs ,, but on the other hand I like to get descent gas mileage for this cruiser . I get 24 mpg now with the hemi , would that suffer then ?
off hand .......do you know who might carry higher compression pistons ? |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Higher compression ratios provide for better MPG, by getting a tighter squeeze on the air/fuel mixture.
With 9:1 slugs, you should be able to use 87 octane regular gas.
Regular gas has more hydrocarbons (what you actually BURN), by volume, than do the higher grade gasses, which have anti-knock,
etc., agents in them, so, regular gas has intrinsically more 'power' in it than does (anti-knock-additive) "High Test" gasoline.
Your distributor advancements will also control the performance and the MPG of the car.
A mild cam grind will also help in your performance and MPG.
Forged pistons are needed for supercharged engines; cast pistons will do you just fine---they're lighter, too.
Edited by d500neil 2013-06-09 5:14 PM
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Location: N.W. Fla. | d500neil - 2013-06-09 4:11 PM
Forged pistons are needed for supercharged engines; cast pistons will do you just fine---they're lighter, too I suspect that cast pistons above the OEM 7:1 aren't available, though I haven't actually looked. Unless Jahn's made them back in the day & a set was to turn up. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I got cast pistons in my 40-over 325; figure that that works out to something like 330 c.i.
That was 15(??) years ago.
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | update on the rod knocker
hemi is out of the car . not too bad of a job. I must say.
I'm thinking of doing like some of you guys said to do .... that is....... just do the lower end ... flip it over , pull the crank , pistons rods resize everything that is needed and install new main and rod bearings.
quick fix that will last i would think . good idea or not?
I kept asking my speed shop how much it would cost to do the lower end and can never get a straight answer from him .. says it all depends .. what do you guys think it should cost to do the lower end over ? that's for them to do all the machine work only .. turn the crank . resize the rods........ etc .......
I can reasemble the engine.
john
Edited by dodge59 2013-06-09 10:18 PM
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Location: N.W. Fla. | If you were happy with performance & it wasn't smoking, go for it. |
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | Mopar1 - 2013-06-09 9:26 PM
If you were happy with performance & it wasn't smoking, go for it.
I'm very happy with the improvements I made before the rod knock started.. had a bunch more power with adding the dual exh and 4bl intake & carb .. not looking for a race car ... I have a 11 sec race car already.
question for you guys ::
say I went with high compression pistons , wouldn't I need different length rods then. ?? .. also would I be able to do this install for the bottom end without takng the heads off ? It just can't be that easy could it?
Edited by dodge59 2013-06-09 10:58 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | What is your shop's hourly labor rate?
Around here, its +/- $100bux
Spend the money; do it once & do it right [-Kanter].
Edited by d500neil 2013-06-09 11:29 PM
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Location: N.W. Fla. | dodge59 - 2013-06-09 9:38 PM
I'm very happy with the improvements I made before the rod knock started.. had a bunch more power with adding the dual exh and 4bl intake & carb .. not looking for a race car ... I have a 11 sec race car already.
question for you guys ::
say I went with high compression pistons , wouldn't I need different length rods then. ?? .. also would I be able to do this install for the bottom end without takng the heads off ? It just can't be that easy could it? A 241 CID engine would hardly make it a race car. It'd bring the engine into the modern era, comp wise. The C/R is increased by adding a dome to the piston. If just changing the bearings you could probably just change out the crank w/o removing the heads. Where you're talking replacing or resizing a rod you'll have to take off the head on that bank to use a ring compressor to get the piston back in. |
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | Mopar1 - 2013-06-10 7:56 AM
dodge59 - 2013-06-09 9:38 PM
I'm very happy with the improvements I made before the rod knock started.. had a bunch more power with adding the dual exh and 4bl intake & carb .. not looking for a race car ... I have a 11 sec race car already.
question for you guys ::
say I went with high compression pistons , wouldn't I need different length rods then. ?? .. also would I be able to do this install for the bottom end without takng the heads off ? It just can't be that easy could it? A 241 CID engine would hardly make it a race car. It'd bring the engine into the modern era, comp wise. The C/R is increased by adding a dome to the piston. If just changing the bearings you could probably just change out the crank w/o removing the heads. Where you're talking replacing or resizing a rod you'll have to take off the head on that bank to use a ring compressor to get the piston back in.
mopar1
so..... IF I have to take take the rods and pistons out the heads have to come off? pistons have to come in from the top and can't come in from the bottom end?
Tha'ts what I thought.. well I an see This is going to snowball into a full blown rebuild when I get started . $$$$$$$$$
There is no easy simple cheap fix I guess.
Edited by dodge59 2013-06-10 11:33 AM
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | who else might carry these high compression pistons for the 241 hemi everyone is talking about ?
hot hemiheads wants $800+ ............ and QEC won't answer there phones.
Thanks ! |
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Location: N.W. Fla. | dodge59 - 2013-06-10 12:06 PM
who else might carry these high compression pistons for the 241 hemi everyone is talking about ?
hot hemiheads wants $800+ ............ and QEC won't answer there phones.
Thanks ! Yeah, nothing is cheap about these engines. QEC is "Wayfarer" here, PM him, and he's "73RR" on the HAMB, could try PMing him there. There's a place in Jacksonville, Fla that has a lot of new hemi stuff on EBay, could look them up & see what they think of there stuff. The cheap way of doing it is dropping in a 318LA/904 and a modern axle.  |
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Location: N.W. Fla. | dodge59 - 2013-06-10 10:30 AM
mopar1
so..... IF I have to take take the rods and pistons out the heads have to come off? pistons have to come in from the top and can't come in from the bottom end?
Tha'ts what I thought.. well I an see This is going to snowball into a full blown rebuild when I get started . $$$$$$$$$
There is no easy simple cheap fix I guess.
You can't use a ring compressor on the bottom. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | In 53-54, Hudsons were the car to beat, but in 53-56, Dodge's 'little' Hemi acquitted itself very nicely, in the typically
underdog-to-Chubbie drivers, in NASCAR competition.
Edited by d500neil 2013-06-10 6:01 PM
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Location: N.W. Fla. | In '53-4 there was no Mouse Motor! |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8445
Location: Perth Australia | For my 318 poly (cheaper than a hemi) it cost me just under $3000
Now before you faint here is the breakdown
Bore and hone cylinders (30 TH)
Re grind Cam
Rebuild both heads to suit ULP/LPG
Re grind crankshaft (10 TH)
Re face lifters
Re face rockers
Weld and machine intake manifold.
With your rods, you really need to check the roundness (is that a word?) of the big ends, to do this, you need an inside micrometer.
You have to put the cap on the rod and torque the nuts tight, then you can measure, your basically looking for out of round.
If the big end is out of round, I am afraid its going to be head (s no point just doing one) off.
This is still not that bad provided the heads were/are ok, just wrap them up and put them asside.
Unless you really are trying to make it go faster, just rebuild it as stock as you can (cam it a bit if you want), But if the
pistons and rings ect are good and your on a budget, then why mess with them (although if the pistons come out, I would fit new rings)
I would expect about maybe 300? for a crank grind, but not sure as I got a lot of stuff done
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Location: N.W. Fla. | ttotired - 2013-06-10 6:54 PM
For my 318 poly (cheaper than a hemi ) it cost me just under $3000
Now before you faint here is the breakdown
Bore and hone cylinders (30 TH )
Re grind Cam
Rebuild both heads to suit ULP/LPG
Re grind crankshaft (10 TH )
Re face lifters
Re face rockers
Weld and machine intake manifold.
With your rods, you really need to check the roundness (is that a word? ) of the big ends, to do this, you need an inside micrometer.
You have to put the cap on the rod and torque the nuts tight, then you can measure, your basically looking for out of round.
If the big end is out of round, I am afraid its going to be head (s no point just doing one ) off.
This is still not that bad provided the heads were/are ok, just wrap them up and put them asside.
Unless you really are trying to make it go faster, just rebuild it as stock as you can (cam it a bit if you want ), But if the
pistons and rings ect are good and your on a budget, then why mess with them (although if the pistons come out, I would fit new rings )
I would expect about maybe 300? for a crank grind, but not sure as I got a lot of stuff done
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | Mopar1 - 2013-06-10 2:02 PM
dodge59 - 2013-06-10 12:06 PM
who else might carry these high compression pistons for the 241 hemi everyone is talking about ?
hot hemiheads wants $800+ ............ and QEC won't answer there phones.
Thanks ! Yeah, nothing is cheap about these engines. QEC is "Wayfarer" here, PM him, and he's "73RR" on the HAMB, could try PMing him there. There's a place in Jacksonville, Fla that has a lot of new hemi stuff on EBay, could look them up & see what they think of there stuff. The cheap way of doing it is dropping in a 318LA/904 and a modern axle. : )
mopar1
I'll trying another way to get a hold of qec .
I would never put a newer 318 in my old dodge . I love originality and hemis of course . .
Edited by dodge59 2013-06-10 10:53 PM
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | update on the hemi
took 4 hours to tear the hemi down today.. cylinder walls look great with very tiny amount of wear ..very little ridge . .. sure doesn't look like 70k miles. put sure was slugged up though....
couple other rod bearings had a scrape line in them from something .. .main bearings look great.
C&S performance in butler wi. here is going to work with me on everything to lower the costs. They will do all the machine work it needs and the cleaning of the block ,heads and all the other items . I will reassemble it .
they are the best shop here in the milwauke area . they have a very good reputation.. They did another hemi 392 for me a few years ago with no issues .
Edited by dodge59 2013-06-10 11:11 PM
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | the 241 hemi is at the machine shop.
still debating upon those high compression pistons for the hemi.. do you guys know if they would bolt right in without different rods?
I heard they will. those would probally ad 50 HP . |
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Location: N.W. Fla. | dodge59 - 2013-06-11 9:16 PM
the 241 hemi is at the machine shop.
still debating upon those high compression pistons for the hemi.. do you guys know if they would bolt right in without different rods?
I heard they will. those would probally ad 50 HP . Rods should be strong enough. |
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | update from machine shop.......
most of the hemi parts are cleaned . few pics of the heads
appears that the crank mains are .030 under already.. someone has been in the old hemi before.
Edited by dodge59 2013-06-14 11:12 PM
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heads cleaned III 30%.JPG (42KB - 214 downloads)
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | machine shop miced up the crank and rods.......... it will need .040 under bearings on crank mains and rod bearings .
definetly somone has been in this hemi before. ... these 241 hemis were know for there bad bearings ..
I remember my pa buying these old dodge hemi cars and replacing the bearing in them and reselling them when I was a youngster.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | John, the 9.0:1 pistons would be high-er c.r. than your OEM's, but they wouldn't really be HIGH compression slugs,
except in 53-55.
Balance the crank, which your shop will do, I'm sure, port the gaskets, and install tubular adjustable pushrods (thru
Hot Heads), and get the cam re-ground, and put in 9.0 pistons and twin pipes and you're good to GO (headers if you
really get motivated)....and oh yeah, get the distributor re-curved so that it can control, and not restrict, the application
all of that new HP....
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | more info on the hemi
machinest miced the cyl bores today and it is .030 over .. also two piston skirts are worn and rings are sloppy .
so far crank mains and rods need .040 bearings and now the cyl bore .040..
now need new pistons and rings too. .040
I new this was going to happen when they opened it up and started micing things up.
the old hemi has been put thru the mill . she is worn out big time . but it ran like a swiss watch . go figure .
now wondering if this hemi really had 70K on it or someone shoved another used 241 hemi in it over the past 60 years .
guess anything is possible.
john
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | here are the 241 hemi Ross high compression piston that are available for $800 + rigs . almost a grand.. just can't afford them .
with milling the block and heads to clean the mating surfaces up, it may bump the CP up a tiny bit. That's fine.
Edited by dodge59 2013-06-20 11:34 AM
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241 hemi HP pistons.jpg (9KB - 204 downloads)
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Location: N.W. Fla. | Don't mill the heads/block unless you have to, & then as little as possible. Don't want to mess with valve train geometry. The pistons are how you adjust C/R. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | George is correct; let me do a little bit of piston/rod research, & we can PM about it...
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | I don't think the machine shop is going to make any drastic just on the heads or block ..
I don't want to be changing all that rocker gear geometry like you guys mentioned. buying different length pushrods and all.
going to stay with the stock compression pistons too ......... No high domes .........too much $$
Edited by dodge59 2013-06-20 10:13 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | here is a couple pics of my 241 hemi head gasket that I removed f .. it's .060 thick.
also as you can see they have some brass rings around water jackets .. That's good
also look at all the blow by between the cylinders (Black)
apparently this gasket was not sealing properly.
these gaskets are stamped VIC 2 with part number HR 632545
metal on both side with some type of gasket material in between .
do these head gaskets appear to be a stock gasket or later aftermarket?
john
Edited by dodge59 2013-06-27 5:29 PM
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my head gasket top side 40%.JPG (150KB - 157 downloads)
my head gasket bottom side 40%.JPG (153KB - 183 downloads)
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | update .
won't be decking the block because machine shop does not have a small enough tool that fits in the journals to secure the block in the machine.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | also going to use mopar 1966 and older lifters becuase they are half expensive. 1966 and older mopar engines used 1/4" pushrod tips like the hemis did back then.
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Expert
Posts: 3035
Location: N.W. Fla. | dodge59 - 2013-06-28 6:47 PM
also going to use mopar 1966 and older lifters becuase they are half expensive. 1966 and older mopar engines used 1/4" pushrod tips like the hemis did back then.
I've used the 361/413 lifters in my Chrs, the groove isn't an exact match, but they work. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | update .................
all my engine parts will be here next week so the machine shop is going to do the final hone on the cyl bores (.040 bore) when they arrive for one last fit ,, then line bore .
valves will be here so the valve job can be finished ... still debating if I should use a valve seal on the intake valves. this 241 never came with valve seals . this engine has double springs so maybe there just isn't enough room for it to have valve seals. what are your opinions on the oil seals ??? yes or no?
cam is being reground and will be finished next week also.. decided to step up the cam one size larger . these baby hemi engines had such small cams ..
when the machine shop is finished with everything , I get it all back and start assembling it.. |
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Location: N.W. Fla. | It's supposed to have intake seals, no ex seals |
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | Mopar1 - 2013-07-06 9:50 AM
It's supposed to have intake seals, no ex seals
were the 1954 hemis suppose to have intake valve seals from the factory ??
I thought I remember reading articles saying the 1954 redram did no valve seals . period . |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | let me run this by you guys .........
upon reassembling the 241 hemi ... there is a 12"vent tube that is in the oil pan and runs along the crankshaft for venting vapors and pressure in the crankcse area.. the foot long tube exits a hole on the rear of the engine block next to the rear main cap .. it makes a mess inside the bellhousing area with oil and condensation from inside the oil pan.. I think I am going to plug that hole with a screw in plug and eliminate the vent tube all together . your opinions please..
I really don't think it is really neccessary .
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Location: N.W. Fla. | dodge59 - 2013-07-06 9:19 PM
Mopar1 - 2013-07-06 9:50 AM
It's supposed to have intake seals, no ex seals
were the 1954 hemis suppose to have intake valve seals from the factory ??
I thought I remember reading articles saying the 1954 redram did no valve seals . period . |
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Location: N.W. Fla. | dodge59 - 2013-07-06 9:37 PM
let me run this by you guys .........
upon reassembling the 241 hemi ... there is a 12"vent tube that is in the oil pan and runs along the crankshaft for venting vapors and pressure in the crankcse area.. the foot long tube exits a hole on the rear of the engine block next to the rear main cap .. it makes a mess inside the bellhousing area with oil and condensation from inside the oil pan.. I think I am going to plug that hole with a screw in plug and eliminate the vent tube all together . your opinions please..
I really don't think it is really neccessary . NOOOOO!!!!! The engine has to breath! Air has to get in & out or you'll be blowing gaskets, or oil out the dipstick tube. The best way to solve the mess is to install a PCV valve in the hole where the tube bolts on(with the valve shielded) & figure out how to plumb it into your carb base if you can't put a modern carb on it that has a PCV port. |
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Posts: 3035
Location: N.W. Fla. | You could block off that one IF you move it somewhere else. The Chrs have them in the rear of the Valley cover. You might modify your's to there, or maybe a PCV fitting on a valve cover. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | mopar1
maybe second thought ......... I'll just leave the tube in the crankcase and pick up hotheads pcv conversion kit that fits in the rear of the valley pan where the old down draft tube is..
once there is suction there from the carbs pvc in the valley pan , it won't be pushing all the vapors and oil condensation junk into the bellhousing . |
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Location: N.W. Fla. | dodge59 - 2013-07-07 10:59 AM
mopar1
maybe second thought ......... I'll just leave the tube in the crankcase and pick up hotheads pcv conversion kit that fits in the rear of the valley pan where the old down draft tube is..
once there is suction there from the carbs pvc in the valley pan , it won't be pushing all the vapors and oil condensation junk into the bellhousing . I have no expierience with Dodge hemis, but if you have the draft tube @ the back of the valley cover & this other seperate one down in the pan area, you'd want to seal off the pan one so no unfiltered air is drawn in through it. You want air coming in through a filtered source, witch should be the oil fill cap. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | update
new stock oem pistons & rings came in .
one thing different >> the reliefs are larger on the new pistons.. probally made for an option to install larger valves.. but my compression is going to drop some more now. so much for original cast pistons !
Edited by dodge59 2013-07-09 5:06 PM
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | Mopar1 - 2013-07-07 11:17 AM
dodge59 - 2013-07-07 10:59 AM
mopar1
maybe second thought ......... I'll just leave the tube in the crankcase and pick up hotheads pcv conversion kit that fits in the rear of the valley pan where the old down draft tube is..
once there is suction there from the carbs pvc in the valley pan , it won't be pushing all the vapors and oil condensation junk into the bellhousing . I have no expierience with Dodge hemis, but if you have the draft tube @ the back of the valley cover & this other seperate one down in the pan area, you'd want to seal off the pan one so no unfiltered air is drawn in through it. You want air coming in through a filtered source, witch should be the oil fill cap.
ordered up hotheads pvc conversion kit for the 241redram ...
seemed to work great on my last hemi 392 .
I'll just plug the hole in the block crankcase where the vent tube was.
Edited by dodge59 2013-07-09 5:13 PM
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | update on241 hemi rebuild
machine shop just squared the block up .. had to deck the block .020 on both sides of the block . appears the block deck was off by .020 on each end.
that means the pistons will now stick out of the block .015-.020 . Well , I got my compression back now and then some. new head gasket is .050 thick. looks like we are safe still. now the block is true and even on both sides.
back in 1954 .......... they did some crazy machine work ..
went to install the new egge oil pump kit and the drive gear shaft is a 1/4" shorter than the old one. checking into that issue as we speek.
Edited by dodge59 2013-07-10 6:22 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca |
OK, John; here's some eye candy for your thread.
First pic shows the 315/325 engine with the crankcase breather tube mounting to the top-rear of the engine.
Next pic shows a factory illustration showing the 54 engine with the breather tube exiting like it does on the later
engines (right by the air-cooled trannie grille...and yeah; that breather tube's excrement will get all over the
undercarriage).
Next photo is an 8x10" factory print of your engine, without the breather tube being installed on it.
Next pics are from my 1954 file, showing the 5/54 Hot Rod article, which should be of interest to you.
I'll go dig out that issue and PM you with some readable PDF-scans of its pages.
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PICT1908.JPG (64KB - 150 downloads)
PICT1909.JPG (117KB - 149 downloads)
PICT1910.JPG (59KB - 159 downloads)
PICT1911.JPG (74KB - 160 downloads)
PICT1912.JPG (70KB - 135 downloads)
PICT1913.JPG (69KB - 155 downloads)
PICT1914.JPG (122KB - 182 downloads)
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Posts: 3035
Location: N.W. Fla. | dodge59 - 2013-07-10 5:18 PM
update on241 hemi rebuild
machine shop just squared the block up .. had to deck the block .020 on both sides of the block . appears the block deck was off by .020 on each end.
that means the pistons will now stick out of the block .015-.020 . Well , I got my compression back now and then some. new head gasket is .050 thick. looks like we are safe still. now the block is true and even on both sides.
back in 1954 .......... they did some crazy machine work ..
went to install the new egge oil pump kit and the drive gear shaft is a 1/4" shorter than the old one. checking into that issue as we speek. What is in the oil pump kit, & why are you replacing the shaft? |
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Posts: 3035
Location: N.W. Fla. | dodge59 - 2013-07-10 5:18 PM
update on241 hemi rebuild
machine shop just squared the block up .. had to deck the block .020 on both sides of the block . appears the block deck was off by .020 on each end.
that means the pistons will now stick out of the block .015-.020 . Well , I got my compression back now and then some. new head gasket is .050 thick. looks like we are safe still. now the block is true and even on both sides.
back in 1954 .......... they did some crazy machine work ..
went to install the new egge oil pump kit and the drive gear shaft is a 1/4" shorter than the old one. checking into that issue as we speek. Early Hemis have a rep for good machine work, but there's always some tolerances that can get off. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | Mopar1 - 2013-07-12 4:19 PM
dodge59 - 2013-07-10 5:18 PM
update on241 hemi rebuild
machine shop just squared the block up .. had to deck the block .020 on both sides of the block . appears the block deck was off by .020 on each end.
that means the pistons will now stick out of the block .015-.020 . Well , I got my compression back now and then some. new head gasket is .050 thick. looks like we are safe still. now the block is true and even on both sides.
back in 1954 .......... they did some crazy machine work ..
went to install the new egge oil pump kit and the drive gear shaft is a 1/4" shorter than the old one. checking into that issue as we speek. What is in the oil pump kit, & why are you replacing the shaft?
mopar1
talked to egge today .. they say they put the wrong kit in the package to me..
the oil pump kit comsists of 3- rubber O- rings 2 small and 1 large....... the shaft and the round dooo giggy it rotates in and a new spring. hope I get the correct shaft now. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | d500neil - 2013-07-12 4:10 PM
OK, John; here's some eye candy for your thread.
First pic shows the 315/325 engine with the crankcase breather tube mounting to the top-rear of the engine.
Next pic shows a factory illustration showing the 54 engine with the breather tube exiting like it does on the later
engines (right by the air-cooled trannie grille...and yeah; that breather tube's excrement will get all over the
undercarriage).
Next photo is an 8x10" factory print of your engine, without the breather tube being installed on it.
Next pics are from my 1954 file, showing the 5/54 Hot Rod article, which should be of interest to you.
I'll go dig out that issue and PM you with some readable PDF-scans of its pages.
thanks Neil
is the magazine article available to buy somewhere.. sureis some goodinfo thre.
also neil .. they talked about installing a length of tubing over the vac diaphram linkage .. what is that all about?
is that so it locks it out and will not have any vac advance then?
Edited by dodge59 2013-07-12 7:27 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | update on the hemi rebuild
maching shop says today ............. one of the rod journals has been welded up previously and feels I should find another crank..
to be safe and all.
anyone out there have a good crank that is not cracked , welded up and still has some meat to it?
I have two other people close by milwaukee wi that I am waiting to talk to. they might have one.. just covering all my bases on locating one for now.
geeee .. I just can't see how supposeablly a 70K engine could of had all the work done do it before .
now the crank .
Edited by dodge59 2013-07-12 7:34 PM
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Expert
Posts: 3402
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Due respect here but I would look at that crank first hand. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | shep
I did look at the crank today and you can see around the border edges in the journal that it has been welded. looks totaly different at the outside border of the journals ........... than the other journals . |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | d500neil - 2013-07-12 4:10 PM
OK, John; here's some eye candy for your thread.
First pic shows the 315/325 engine with the crankcase breather tube mounting to the top-rear of the engine.
Next pic shows a factory illustration showing the 54 engine with the breather tube exiting like it does on the later
engines (right by the air-cooled trannie grille...and yeah; that breather tube's excrement will get all over the
undercarriage).
Next photo is an 8x10" factory print of your engine, without the breather tube being installed on it.
Next pics are from my 1954 file, showing the 5/54 Hot Rod article, which should be of interest to you.
I'll go dig out that issue and PM you with some readable PDF-scans of its pages.
Neil
Thanks for the hotrod article /pics ............ I recieved the personal meassage with them .
sure do appreciated the info.
john
Edited by dodge59 2013-07-13 12:14 AM
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Expert
Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | dodge59 - 2013-07-12 4:32 PM update on the hemi rebuild maching shop says today ............. one of the rod journals has been welded up previously and feels I should find another crank.. to be safe and all. anyone out there have a good crank that is not cracked , welded up and still has some meat to it? I have two other people close by milwaukee wi that I am waiting to talk to. they might have one.. just covering all my bases on locating one for now. geeee .. I just can't see how supposeablly a 70K engine could of had all the work done do it before . now the crank . When I consider how many cars seem to go over 100K with zero problems, I mean even back in the "day", combined with the notorious amount of odometer rollbacks dealers used to do, I firmly believe that a vast number of cars people complained about not holding up were in fact cars they bought used with tons of miles rolled off the odometer. A real 80K car that's been cared for, and that was driven a lot in a relatively short time, will still look new and it's easy to detail it and roll it back to 40K and resell it, might even be able to do it a second time so that when it starts coughing when it reads 100K it's actually at 180K. My dad drove his 60 Matador to around 110K and never even changed the transmission fluid and it was still running, engine good, transmission about due for some work! |
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Expert
Posts: 3035
Location: N.W. Fla. | In racing applications the 241 were known for not having great crankshafts, usually agrivated by the lack of an OEM installed damper.
Edited by Mopar1 2013-07-13 10:05 AM
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Walter passed away on Jul 29, 2014. We will miss you, Walt!
Posts: 5358
Location: Heaven Above (Formerly Oklahoma City,OK) | Many a "stroker" engine was built back in the 50's - 60's with welded crankshafts. I have a Kawasaki 900 motorcycle engine that has one welded connecting rod journal.
Couldn't wait for a new crankshaft and had it welded, reground the one journal, had it straightened, nitrided, and put about 100 hours on the engine on the race track in a race car! |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 5139
Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | Something you may want to consider---When I did my 354 Hemi, the machine shop did not want to guarantee anything that they did not assemble themselves. So I let them assemble the short-block, and I did the rest. However, I checked their work and found that their cam timeing was WAY off. They did not know that Mopar Hemi is not timed the same as a Chebby!.........................Good Luck............................MO |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | ...See page 15 of the 5/54 Hot Rod, above.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | here is another wcfb carb I have been working on .. total rebuild 2443sa .. 1956 d500 factory carb that will go on the 241 hemi when I have a few hundred miles on her..... everything taken apart and restored.
here are the before and after pics.
I down sized the jetting in the carb to accomodate the 241 hemi difference.
you wouldn't believe the hours I have in this wcfb carb restoring it.
can't wait to try it on the old hemi .
Edited by dodge59 2013-07-14 7:38 PM
 (2443 oem 40%.JPG)
 (2443 all rebuilt 40%.JPG)
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2443 oem 40%.JPG (175KB - 227 downloads)
2443 all rebuilt 40%.JPG (143KB - 194 downloads)
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Expert
Posts: 3035
Location: N.W. Fla. | Looks like after & before! :-) |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | Mopar1 - 2013-07-14 12:29 PM
Looks like after & before! :-)[/QUOTe)
sorry about that mopar1 ! pics are in order now. . |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | That's good news, for sure; but you're gonna need a re-ground camshaft: http://www.qualityengineeredcomponents.com/
and, per my first post on page 1 of your thread, you're going to need to have your distributor be modified, in order to get
the full benefit of that D500 carb's CFM.
BTW, you can seal up both ends of it, and polish the carb to a shine like that of its spring-bracket.
Then, you can clear coat it with something like this, to preserve its shiny-ness..
A little chromed paper-filter air cleaner would look bitchin sitting on your D500 carb, too.
Edited by d500neil 2013-07-14 8:00 PM
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PICT1979.JPG (58KB - 162 downloads)
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | d500neil - 2013-07-14 6:46 PM
That's good news, for sure; but you're gonna need a re-ground camshaft: http://www.qualityengineeredcomponents.com/
and, per my first post on page 1 of your thread, you're going to need to have your distributor be modified, in order to get
the full benefit of that D500 carb's CFM.
hi neil
yeah.................. chris neilson cams is regrinding the camshaff one size up . will be done this week .
After I get the 241 up and running and broke in , I'll work over that distributor.... I just don't want to do too many changes here at once.. have to get her running first and then make the changes later.
This hemi engine is going to run SWEET ! |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | John, I'll PM you my cam's specs, which Chris can compare to what he intends to do to yours; it provides good low-middle
response, which is where you want your cam to come alive.
The dissie can be bench tested/adjusted away from your car, and it should be 'done' before the engine is fully ready for
installation in the car.
Does your vacuum advance have a 'removable' (adjustable) flat lock-nut on its 'nose'?
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | d500neil - 2013-07-14 7:06 PM
John, I'll PM you my cam's specs, which Chris can compare to what he intends to do to yours; it provides good low-middle
response, which is where you want your cam to come alive.
The dissie can be bench tested/adjusted away from your car, and it should be 'done' before the engine is fully ready for
installation in the car.
Does your vacuum advance have a 'removable' (adjustable) flat lock-nut on its 'nose ?
neil
yep.... dist 4003A does have the flat nut on nose . spring behind it .
I probally could work this distrib over now while I'm waiting for the hemi do be finished .. but won't run it during breaking in the cam period. don't need any issues then..
I could change the heavey spring to a light one in the dist for now.
what should I do for the vac adv can .. ? heavy /light spring ?----- more washers or less ?
or pipe tube sleeve over the linkage arm like that article said to do ?
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Expert
Posts: 3035
Location: N.W. Fla. | You do know a modern 318-340 LA points or electronic dizzy is a bolt in on the 241? |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I'd have to know the built in mechanical advance and the vacuum advance on those engines' dissies before I'd ever consider
installing one of them, even though they might 'drop in'.
Also, they would need to have a dual points breaker plate to accommodate a Pertronix E.I. system.
John, what your dissie doc does with the vacuum advance depends upon what he does to the cam-curve, in getting
it to around 28 degrees (he does that by cutting and/or welding the cam's slot so that his Sun Analyzer testing machine
records the proper M.A., so that, when the V.A. is adjusted by him, he records about 40-42 degrees to total advance.
With the 40-42 degrees thus obtained, AND with the two light weight springs now installed, you can dial-in 6-8 degrees
of engine Initial Advance, to realize 48-ish (safely under 50) degrees of Total Advance.
Along with the Pertronix system (since your dissie is a dualie-points, already), you'll have a killer distributor which will take
full advantage of your hot-rodded engine.
Edited by d500neil 2013-07-15 2:34 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | Mopar1 - 2013-07-14 10:41 PM
You do know a modern 318-340 LA points or electronic dizzy is a bolt in on the 241?
mopar1
yes ... that is what I have read before here . it will drop in .
but........... I have 6 volt system and don't plan on a upgrade to 12volt.
or............ will it work with 6 volt?
Edited by dodge59 2013-07-15 10:17 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | d500neil - 2013-07-15 1:33 AM
I'd have to know the built in mechanical advance and the vacuum advance on those engines' dissies before I'd ever consider
installing one of them, even though they might 'drop in'.
Also, they would need to have a dual points breaker plate to accommodate a Pertronix E.I. system.
John, what your dissie doc does with the vacuum advance depends upon what he does to the cam-curve, in getting
it to around 28 degrees (he does that by cutting and/or welding the cam's slot so that his Sun Analyzer testing machine
records the proper M.A., so that, when the V.A. is adjusted by him, he records about 40-42 degrees to total advance.
With the 40-42 degrees thus obtained, AND with the two light weight springs now installed, you can dial-in 6-8 degrees
of engine Initial Advance, to realize 48-ish (safely under 50) degrees of Total Advance.
Along with the Pertronix system (since your dissie is a dualie-points, already), you'll have a killer distributor which will take
full advantage of your hot-rodded engine.
neil
why can't I set my old oem dist up like a newer style late 60-70's small block dist with around 19* initial and 32* total all in by 2500 rpm.. that is how I set quite a few mopar dists up already in some of my previous hotrods before and they would scream ! of course they have more lift and duration than a 241 hemi ..
my latest upgrade was in my 65 dart/charger 273 4 speed. 17* inital and 32* total . loves it.
is it because these hemis don't need all that timing ?
Edited by dodge59 2013-07-15 10:34 AM
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Expert
Posts: 3402
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | 32 total is in the ball park for a hemi, wedge engines usually want about 36 total. I have raced both of these engines and the modern 426 ran the best at about 32-33, the 426 Max Wedge about 36-38. all in both at 3k. For a street engine all in at 2500 may be too quick unless you have a fairly agressive cam that tends to bleed off the effective compression or cylinder pressure, if it is a high compression engine say 10 or above using pump gas, 2500 could be on the edge, of course every engine is slightly different., My race engines were a blue printed 12.5. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Our Hemi/Poly engines will absolutely detonate with Initial advance above say 12 degrees.
Detonation can/will occur if the I.A. is too high (say above 12) and/or if the total M.A. is above
36 degrees.
Due to the poor built-in mechanical advance on the 57 318 Poly Fury, Hot Rod got 12 degrees of I.A. dialed
in, for drag racing purposes....( but they were running mega-Premium gas in it, too)....to get the total
mechanical advance to 31 degrees---meaning that its dissie had a lousy 19 degrees of built-in
mechanical advancement in it!!
Our Hemi/Poly engines can accept up to about 36 degrees of I.A + M.A. but, at or above that rate you will be running at least
91 octane gas, to avoid detonation (from the piston being too-far down in the cylinder when the spark goes off, so that you get
a secondary ignition of unburned gas when the piston rises to the top of the cylinder).
I'm at 4K' elevation, so my Hemi can tolerate Regular gas with no (detonation) problems, with my 6 I.A. + 27 M.A. (as
bench-tested by the dissie doc; it was supposed to have 28 degrees of M.A in it)= 33 degrees total mechanical advancement.
We want to use as low of octane gas as possible, as there are more hydrocarbons (what actually gets burned, in gasoline)
per volume in Regular grade than exist in the higher octane blends (with anti-knock, etc-etc additives).
The two light weight springs will allow our dissies to achieve full advance at lower RPM, like Shep says, at about 2500
RPM, instead of at the sometimes virtually-unobtainable rate of 4800 RPM, with the heavier spring installed.
Here's what H.R has to say, in their omnibus 57 Plymouth evaluation issue (5/57):
Edited by d500neil 2013-07-16 5:00 PM
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PICT1981.JPG (58KB - 145 downloads)
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | Thanks guys !
say......... just got another 241 hemi crank wih standard mesurements . machine shop did a quick inspection with out cleaning it yet ... says it mics out good , no apparent cracks or anything welded up. only issue was where the rear rope seal , seals to crank .. few rust pits there . have to see how it cleans up first .. but all in all , Good crank |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | As long as 'we' are discussing the ramifications of detonation (pinging), there are two more causes for pinging to occur.
As mentioned elsewhere, you can also get detonation when the Total Advance exceeds about 50 degrees.
T.A. is the (cruising speed) accumulation of (the engine's) Initial Advance setting, plus the dissie's built-in Mechanical
Advance, plus the Vacuum Advance's additional (steady-state cruising) contributed advancement.
At WOT, the V.A. is inoperable, so only the I.A + M.A. applies, so their total should be less than about 36 degrees.
So, ideally, at high speed cruise-mode, we would want 6-9 degrees of I.A + 24-28 degrees of M.A. + 12-16 degrees of V.A. =
46-49 degrees of T.A. (with a 4-bbl carb system; 2-bbl's are less efficient than the 4's, so they can live
with higher timing advances).
The 4th possibility for detonation to occur is when the engine coolant contains a too-high water content.
Your water temperature gauge can be misleading to you, because water is a relatively poor transfer agent of heat, and
is repelled (bubbles off) by a hot surface, like the surface of the combustion chamber in a cylinder head.
The water temperature reading can be fine, while the engine is imitating Chernobyl.
As water gets hotter, it can absorb less heat (and it can boil-off), which creates a compounded metal super-heating.
The increased temperature and pressure inside the cylinder can ignite the unburned gasses in the cylinder, as the piston
rises up after the power stroke/spark occurs.
Fortunately, glycol type anti-freeze is an excellent transfer agent and it causes the water-mix to adhere to a hot engine
surface, to allow for efficient heat release from it.
Edited by d500neil 2013-07-16 4:57 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | This is how I curved a bunch of mopar sb dizzies .
works great !
To limit the total advance you need to shorten the travel of the slots on
the T bar. Remember distributor advance is x2 to the total. So if I am
setting my initial at 18 and I want 34 total that leaves me 8 degrees
advance in the distributor, 8x2=16 +18=34.
You will need to weld or solder the outside of the slots to shorten the
travel to limit your total. The numbers I have are close and should get you
within 2-4 degrees. I have found I am about 2 degrees off but it might
vary from distributor to distributor. Use the numbers below for reference.
dist. degrees / slot size
6.............. .340
7............... .355
8............... .375
9............... .390
10.............. .405
11.5 ........... .420
12.............. .435
13.............. .445
14.............. .460
15.............. .475
16.............. .490
17.............. .505
18.............. .520
This photo shows the shortened slots.
Make sure all the sharp edges are removed and the slots are clean to the
weight pins can move freely in the slots.
The tricky part for the curve is getting the springs to come in when you
want. If you are happy with your current curve, put it all back together
and away you go. If you want a performance curve to bring in your total
around 2200-2500 rpm you will have to play with springs to get that set
right. Many have had luck with just removing the heavy spring. For me
that just brought my total in by 1500 rpm which is too low. I have two
of the lighter stock springs in and will fire that up tomorrow and let you
know how that works.
Attached Images
Edited by dodge59 2013-07-16 11:54 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | this is how I will curve the 4003A dist in my hemi.
12* dist degrees which is a .435 slot opening ,
x 2 is 24* ma + 8 IA = 32* total plus VA ( dont know what I will do with that yet. and the light spring..
should work great ! just a ball park figure .
what do you think ?? |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | You got it!
You want your total advance to be somewhat below 50 degrees.
At 32 degrees, you can dial-in 16 degrees to the Vacuum Advance (if it is adjustable...like yours is---has that flat nut guy on
its nose)....to get 48 total degrees, and with two light weight springs, you'll get to the 48 degrees at around 2500 rpm.
A Vacuum advance with a "8" stamped onto its lever arm will provide the 16 degrees that you need.
V.A.'s stamped with a "7" or an "8" are NOT really easy to find, on the 'web'.
The '8' I.A. will help your car to accelerate-away from a stop a tad better than would a '6', so the '8' I.A. will be really nice
for your 241.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | As you note, there are relatively many different "light-weight" dissie springs, out in the world, and the two (your dissie's existing light-weight one, and some other dissie's donor-spring)....which are best, for your hot-rodded dissie's overall performance, is a question that is open for a Sun Analyzer evaluation.
It is definitely possible to have two too-light-weight springs installed, or two springs which are, still, too-stiff-for-optimum distributor performance.
Edited by d500neil 2013-07-17 5:22 PM
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Expert
Posts: 3402
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | You can also use a set back timing lite and tach to set it up on the engine. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | thanks for the info guys !
sure do appreciated it.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | update on the new crank for the 241 hemi..
machine shop magnafluxed it today and it is GOOD To GO.
NO Cracks !
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | got a question for you guys
I'm having my 241 hemi stock cam reground .. chris neilson wants to bump it up on size larger to these specs approx. >> dur 246-256 and lift 330..
will this effect my gas miliage? >>> will it be better or worse?
compression will still be around 7:1 and a bore of .040 from .030 ........... after the rebuild .
This 241 hemi got 24 mpg in the" mobil gas run " back in 1954 .. that is incredible !
I don't want to hamper that .
Edited by dodge59 2013-07-18 1:39 PM
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Expert
Posts: 3402
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Is the 246-256 at .050 lift, if so that is way too much duration for normal usage. Any time to increase duration especially with a low compression engine you will lose low and mid range performance unless you have increased the gear ratio ( numerically). Either way all else being equal the mileage would suffer. |
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | shep
I would assume chris neilson cams means 246-256 advertised duration .
here is some cam spec info I found >>>>> I thought I remember him saying that the 241 hemi has aprox 330 lift .. these specs below show more lift .
I've been messing with these old Desoto hemis for over 40 years now and have had several stock cams reground for performance. I just got a new roller From Don Johanson. Does anyone out there know the specs on stock early hemi cams? I'd like to know what the duration of these old cams are. Is there any way to estimate duration if you know the lift? I have the specs on the Dodge, Chrysler, and Desoto cams as far as lift goes and here they are;
Dodge Intake Exhaust
53 241 .360" .364"
54 241 .365" .365"
55 270 .360" .360"
56 315 .360" .360"
56-D500 .400" .409"
57 325 .389" .389"
57-D500 .388" .388"
57-D5001 354 .444" .435"
Desoto
53 276 .361" .361"
54 276 .361" .361"
55 291 .360" .360"
56 330 .381" .357"
56 Adventurer .431" .413"
57 341 .389" .389"
57 Adventurer .430" .413"
Chrysler
53 331 .378" .361"
54 331 .378" .361"
55 331 .381" .357"
55 300 331 .444" .435"
56 354 .381" .357"
57 300 354 .444" .435"
58 392 .389" .389"
58 300 392 .435" .442"
58 300 Injected 392 .445" .445"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
Edited by dodge59 2013-07-18 3:42 PM
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Expert
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Location: N.W. Fla. | dodge59 - 2013-07-18 2:31 PM
shep
I would assume chris neilson cams means 246-256 advertised duration .
here is some cam spec info I found >>>>> I thought I remember him saying that the 241 hemi has aprox 330 lift .. these specs below show more lift .
I've been messing with these old Desoto hemis for over 40 years now and have had several stock cams reground for performance. I just got a new roller From Don Johanson. Does anyone out there know the specs on stock early hemi cams? I'd like to know what the duration of these old cams are. Is there any way to estimate duration if you know the lift? I have the specs on the Dodge, Chrysler, and Desoto cams as far as lift goes and here they are;
Dodge Intake Exhaust
53 241 .360" .364"
54 241 .365" .365"
55 270 .360" .360"
56 315 .360" .360"
56-D500 .400" .409"
57 325 .389" .389"
57-D500 .388" .388"
57-D5001 354 .444" .435"
Desoto
53 276 .361" .361"
54 276 .361" .361"
55 291 .360" .360"
56 330 .381" .357"
56 Adventurer .431" .413"
57 341 .389" .389"
57 Adventurer .430" .413"
Chrysler
53 331 .378" .361"
54 331 .378" .361"
55 331 .381" .357"
55 300 331 .444" .435"
56 354 .381" .357"
57 300 354 .444" .435"
58 392 .389" .389"
58 300 392 .435" .442"
58 300 Injected 392 .445" .445"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
. From the refs I use, all the 53-5 Dodges used the same cam. Allthe DeSotos 52-55 ex Adv used the same cam. And all of the 51-55 used the same cam ex for the 300. Talking car hemis. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | I went to look at my stock /original 4003A dist for my 241 hemi and it has a stamped # 11.5 vacumn advance arm in it. is there any way I can modfy mine with a lighter spring,thicker spring or more or less washers .. I need a # 8 arm for my application. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | OK ... update
I opened up the 4003a dissie and here is what I found .
t-slot measurement of .415 ,two stock springs (appear to be really light ) and a stamped 11.5 VA arm .. suppose to be all stock oem dissie 241 hemi .
why would one spring be painted red? primary spring ? both look the same and feel the same for tension.
.415 slot equals approx. 11* x2 = 22* built into the ma. not much ma !
I'll see what my other parts disssies have , maybe I'll find a # 12 or 13 t-bar slot .
my goal here is
12x4=24 ma + 8 IA 32 total w/o va
OR
13x2=26 ma + 8 IA 34 total w/o va
probally use the 12x2 slot for 24 ma then I can bump the ia up to 10* if needed.
here a cuple pics of the Iaz 4003A dissie insides
Edited by dodge59 2013-07-20 4:46 PM
 (inside 4003a dissie springs 40%.JPG)
 (4003a dissie t- slot.JPG)
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inside 4003a dissie springs 40%.JPG (205KB - 143 downloads)
4003a dissie t- slot.JPG (98KB - 142 downloads)
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | found a coupe more t-bars .. modified one for measurements .435 slot 12*
question on the springs .. appears my oem spring look weak .. is that what they are suppose to look like or should it have had springs somewhat like this one that came out of a newer 440 mopar with a cast iron dissie? see pic .
should mine of had a spring that has a loop in it .. what was that for again ? what did that do to the timing ? ... I forget.
thanks guys !
Edited by dodge59 2013-07-20 4:39 PM
 (modified t slot .435.JPG)
 (440 dizzie 40% springs.JPG)
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modified t slot .435.JPG (118KB - 142 downloads)
440 dizzie 40% springs.JPG (144KB - 145 downloads)
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Expert
Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | To me that one spring looks weak. Years ago I had my 69 400 Pontiac distributor redone by a speed shop. It was ok when I got it back but then it seemed like more and more I could not get good enough gas to keep it happy. I was dumping in octane booster and looking for the absolute highest octane premium fuel I could find. Thing still pinged like crazy with some knocking. Took the distributor apart and discovered that the springs were all stretched to hell and the wights were just sloppy loose as a result. So I cliped the end off the springs, bend the end loop down to make a new end anchor and put it back n place. Car ran better then it had in many years. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | found this article about the loop adv spring .
The springs adjust the advance rate. Where the distributor is bolted down determines the initial advance, the amount of travel in the mechanical advance determines the total advance, and the springs determine what RPM total advanced is reached. Lighter springs allow the mechanical advance to move more easily so you will reach total advance at a lower RPM. Stiffer spring will delay the total advance. Most distributors use two springs, a small one and big one. The big one will usually have a bit of lash so the small one does all the work at low speeds. This allows the advance to come up quickly off idle. Once the lash on the big spring is used up the weights will be trying to pull both springs so the advance rate will slow down. The chart below shows a typical stock advance "curve". It is the dual springs that give it the curve. If there were only one spring the chart would just be a straight line.
Edited by dodge59 2013-07-21 12:09 PM
 (440 dizzie 40% springs.JPG)
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440 dizzie 40% springs.JPG (144KB - 124 downloads)
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | ok back to my 241 hemi dist ........
Sooooooo ... there are no heavy adv springs in my dist both advance springs are appear identicle in ( coils size, diameter and tension) .. except for one being red . so I should just replace one of them with a lighter spring then? that would give me a quicker advance.
Thanks !
 (inside 4003a dissie springs 40%.JPG)
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inside 4003a dissie springs 40%.JPG (205KB - 155 downloads)
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Expert
Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | The red spring looks like it has smaller coils to me. Is there some reason you think the springs are wrong? Until you run it and see what the advance curve is you are just proposing changing things for no apparent reason. Or did I miss something earlier in this thread? |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | If you refer to my first post (so long ago), you'll see that your dissie is to have 24 degrees of built-in Mechanical
Advancement, and that it is supposed to have 14 degrees (stamped with a "7'" on its lever-arm) of Vacuum advance.
You may also recall that my car's 1955 Windsor V/8 dissie (the beloved IAZ 4001E) was officially to have 28 degrees of
built-in M.A. in it, but that the Dissie Doc recorded an actual 27 degrees in it.
You need to get your V.A. to whatever total advancement would not exceed 50 degrees (unless you like listening to
your engine playing The Anvil Chorus).
And, that 'red' spring is light weight; you need another one of them to make your dissie fast-reacting to increased engine RPM.
Edited by d500neil 2013-07-21 10:39 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | neil
from what I have found and posted in ealier posts is that my 241 hemi oem 4003a dizzie does not have 24* ma . it miced out to be .415 and that is approx 22* ma . has two identicle adv springs, not a light and heavy spring and the va arm is #11.5 .
The adv weight springs are identicle the pic is just deseiving ......... with same number of coils , thickness,diameter .. and length etc.
I have reason to believe that the dizzie was not altered in any way..
I got the correct amount of ma in the t-bar now 24*. now just wondering if it needs one lighter spring still since these oem ones are light weight already ..
then trying to find a #8 va arm .. or maybe alter the oem 11.5 one that is in there now.
that is going to hard to find that #8 va arm
Edited by dodge59 2013-07-21 11:59 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | jimntempe - 2013-07-21 9:12 PM
The red spring looks like it has smaller coils to me. Is there some reason you think the springs are wrong? Until you run it and see what the advance curve is you are just proposing changing things for no apparent reason. Or did I miss something earlier in this thread?
jimntempe
just recurving the dizzie for better overall performance.
this dizzy only had 22* ma built in it . just needs a better set up all around . |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | The heavy-er of the two springs slows down the dissie's rate of advance.
The A.M.A. specs call for 4 degrees of I.A. (not very good for low speed performance) + 24 M.A. = 28 degrees
of total Mechanical Advance (not great, either), so, with 23 V.A. (11.5x2) added to the sum, you'd get Total Advancement
of 51 degrees, but, that heavy spring might restrict/retard the arrival of those 51 degrees until maybe 4,800 RPM.
Installing 2 light-weight springs will speed up the advance rate, so you'd get those 51 degrees at maybe 2,800 RPM,
and you'd be stuck with those 4-degrees of I.A., and you'd probably have to use Premium gas to avoid pinging
at high speed cruise mode.
Installing (or, dialing-in) a lower V.A. of 14-16 will allow you to up the I.A. to 8-9 ish + 24 M.A. + 14/16 = 46/49
and with you possibly being able to run Regular of Mid Grade gas.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | neil
anyway to modify my va ? by slipping that tube over the va arm to restrict it? mine has 11.5 stamped on it .
pic is the inside ma springs ... going to replace one with a lighter one.
Edited by dodge59 2013-07-23 12:05 AM
 (inside 4003a dissie springs 40%.JPG)
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inside 4003a dissie springs 40%.JPG (205KB - 138 downloads)
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I got no specific info on adjusting a V.A., other than the general 'word' that the flat-nut on the nose allows the advance
to be changed.
A dissie doc would be able to record the actual degrees of change, on his Sun Analyzer (I believe).
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | d500neil - 2013-07-23 2:14 AM
I got no specific info on adjusting a V.A., other than the general 'word' that the flat-nut on the nose allows the advance
to be changed.
A dissie doc would be able to record the actual degrees of change, on his Sun Analyzer (I believe).
your correct neil
behind that flat nut is a springs a nd washer to adjust the amount desire I believe.. someone would have to varify that . but I know you can curve that va .
on a previous post neil on the 241 hemi build they had metioned to install a pipe tubing over the va linkage arm to limit or block out the travel..
here is a pic of my va stamped 11.5 on the arm and the red arrow showing where I think they would have plced the tubing over the linkage arm.
 (my va can arm 40% w arrow.JPG)
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my va can arm 40% w arrow.JPG (131KB - 143 downloads)
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | more info specs from Bubba's hotrod shop...Greatly appreciated info ..
here it is >
The numbers inside the unit " Z26R" show that the distributor has 26 degrees of advance and is a right hand unit.
A good clean and lube will more than likely restore the factory curve as needed, these get gummed up and restrict the advance action.
The springs are adjustable by bending the mounting tabs and very seldom require replacement. The spring tension changes the advance rate to a working curve of progressive advance..
To limit the vac advance just slip a piece of winshield wiper rubber hose inside the spring inside the diaphrahm.
These cast iron units are some of the best distributors ever made and work very well with a little care.......
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888-809-3835 TOLL FREE s on my dist curving
That stamped plate says what the slots size is , but mine were far from that .. they measured not even 22* @ .415
according to what the Z26R stamped shows that is 26 dist degrees . mine is less that 22*. wonder what happened there. who knows what mopar did back in the day. maybe someone intalled the wrong t-bar on assembly day.
Edited by dodge59 2013-07-24 11:37 AM
 (inside 4003a dissie springs 40%.JPG)
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inside 4003a dissie springs 40%.JPG (205KB - 136 downloads)
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | The number/thickness of the washers is how the V.A.'s advancement is adjusted.....IIRC.
Someone with an Analyzer would be needed to dial in the advancement, I think.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | distributor curve update ...........
worked on my hemi distributor today and finished the curve in it..
t-bar slots have 24* MA.... two light ma springs ,..... 8* IA and 16* VA . = > 48*
may need smoe minor adjustments after the engine is running.
this dist curve should really wake this hemi up !
Edited by dodge59 2013-07-25 7:12 PM
 (my hemi dist curved 40%.JPG)
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my hemi dist curved 40%.JPG (144KB - 142 downloads)
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | My hero.
"Get 'em up, Scout! That right Kemo Sabe!"
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | Thanks Neil
here is pic of my 241 hemi distributor 4003A , finished with the curve .
Update on hemi
all machine work on Block is done .
still waiting for chris neilson cams to regrind the cam , should be this week , ( he has had it now for 3 weeks ) .
heads are almost done too > new valves ,guides , intake seals and a port cleaned up and polish .
still have to regrind the crank .
won't be long now!
Edited by dodge59 2013-07-26 11:56 AM
 (my recured dist finish 40%.JPG)
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my recured dist finish 40%.JPG (164KB - 136 downloads)
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | All you need NOW is the Pertronix Ignitor 1383 electronic ignition system
(But you'd still have to be careful around Kryptonite).
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | d500neil - 2013-07-26 11:13 AM
All you need NOW is the Pertronix Ignitor 1383 electronic ignition system
(But you'd still have to be careful around Kryptonite).
Neil
will that pertronix work with a 6 volt system? |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I think that it will; call them and confirm, and let us know what they have to say.
How did you dial in (and record) the V.A. unit to provide its 16 degrees?
You say, above, that your "26" cam&plate didn't even produce 22 degrees; as I mentioned, my "28" C&P only produced 27 degrees
of advance.
"Your results may vary"....
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | d500neil - 2013-07-26 3:51 PM
I think that it will; call them and confirm, and let us know what they have to say.
How did you dial in (and record) the V.A. unit to provide its 16 degrees?
You say, above, that your "26" cam&plate didn't even produce 22 degrees; as I mentioned, my "28" C&P only produced 27 degrees
of advance.
"Your results may vary"....
neil
I'm going to try the old trick of inserting that rubber hose insde the VA coil spring to limit travel and it does work... they used this trick back in 1954 as the above article states. I'll give it a whirl and I may have to tweak that accordingly.
I will call pertronix about the kit for a 6 volt system monday.
Edited by dodge59 2013-07-26 6:13 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | update on the regrind of my hemi cam.
Here are the stock specs on a 241 hemi cam :
dur ...... .172 @ .050
lift......... 360
My new specs will be :
Dur ... .192@ .050
lift........ .392-.395.
"Chris Neilson cams " knows is stuff.
no other valve train alterations are needd with this new cam .
I should have the new reground cam next week .
Edited by dodge59 2013-07-26 6:15 PM
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Expert
Posts: 3035
Location: N.W. Fla. | what springs did they recommend? |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | There are quite a few different 'light-weight' and 'heavy' springs that could be installed in a dissie.
You could end up with one/two too-light/weak 'light' spring(s) or one/two too-heavy 'light' springs.
The Sun Analyzer would evaluate the rate of advancement provided by the two springs, so that the full advancement
would not occur until the 2800+ RPM sweet-spot is reached.
OOPS...if you mean valve-springs, they'd better have recommended the stock ratings, to preserve
the cam lobes.
Edited by d500neil 2013-07-26 8:49 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | Mopar1 - 2013-07-26 6:20 PM
what springs did they recommend?
chris neilson cams said that I would not have had to change the valve springs , That's ok with me, but my machine shop doing the hemi said the oem springs are so weak , that he would like to see a little stiffer spring also the valve seals would fit better and no rub on the inner spring..
all looks good ! |
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Expert
Posts: 3035
Location: N.W. Fla. | dodge59 - 2013-07-26 8:04 PM
Mopar1 - 2013-07-26 6:20 PM
what springs did they recommend?
chris neilson cams said that I would not have had to change the valve springs , That's ok with me, but my machine shop doing the hemi said the oem springs are so weak , that he would like to see a little stiffer spring also the valve seals would fit better and no rub on the inner spring..
all looks good ! |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | Mopar1 - 2013-07-26 9:50 PM
dodge59 - 2013-07-26 8:04 PM
Mopar1 - 2013-07-26 6:20 PM
what springs did they recommend?
chris neilson cams said that I would not have had to change the valve springs , That's ok with me, but my machine shop doing the hemi said the oem springs are so weak , that he would like to see a little stiffer spring also the valve seals would fit better and no rub on the inner spring..
all looks good ! Probably didn't mean keeping 60 yr old springs, I'd hope.
Right........ mopar 1 |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | I purchased my choke heat tube sock from mcmaster.com .. They are like a grainger company .. They have Everything.
Big thanks goes out to keith boonstra for the tip.
here is the sock installed.
 (my choke tube sock 40%.JPG)
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my choke tube sock 40%.JPG (110KB - 206 downloads)
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | And for those of you playing along, at home; was re-reading the 12/04 MoPar Action, and came across an article
therein that referenced the Malory 29014 distributor re-curve hop up kit, which contains a variety of return-
springs in it.
Researched the intraweb for the 29014 availability and came up with this page, showing various suppliers and pricing for it:
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AgBpBGop9bwysIog9JTjqtis0NUE;_y...
Hopefully, this page will show up.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | the page works neil . Good tip.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | I looked up pertronix site and found my ignitor kit for my 241 hemi 6 volt pos ground .
soon as I re-coop from the hemi build I will get one for the dual point .
part number 1383P6
Edited by dodge59 2013-07-27 9:24 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | update on the 241 hemi rebuild.
all machine work is done on the 241 hemi block ... decked to square up block , line bored , .010 cyl bored ,cam bearings , freeze plugs are in .
heads are finished and assembled.. just waiting for the crank to be turned .010 on all journals and a then I can assemble it.
crank should be done this week maybe .
getting really anxious now.
Edited by dodge59 2013-07-30 7:35 PM
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8445
Location: Perth Australia | Have you washed and painted all the brakets and stuff yet
Nothing worse than doing the good bit, but being held up waiting for paint to dry or having to clean/buff up bolts
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | ttotired - 2013-07-30 7:04 PM
Have you washed and painted all the brakets and stuff yet
Nothing worse than doing the good bit, but being held up waiting for paint to dry or having to clean/buff up bolts
I've been cleaning parts and painting everything .. and Geeeeeeeeeeeeee there are a lot of parts .
and this has been going on for almost 3 months .
even detailed the engine compartment .
Have all my ducks in order so when the engine comes back, I ready to go.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | update on hemi 241 rebuild .
got the heads back and reassembled them .
everything Brand new !
Edited by dodge59 2013-08-01 9:29 PM
 (heads assembled 40%.JPG)
 (heads assembled II 40%.JPG)
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heads assembled 40%.JPG (174KB - 265 downloads)
heads assembled II 40%.JPG (182KB - 153 downloads)
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | up date on the 241 reground cam
It's finished and I will have it wednesday next week.
chris Neilson cams . |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | on the oil pump shaft issue ..
I think we figured out why my oil pump shaft was longer than the new one that egge sent me for the hemi....... pk 107 ........ shaft was 4.5"
Turns out my pump that was in the hemi was changed to that earlier conversion with the sb LA 318-340 oil pump previously , that is a difference of 1/4" longer in length . We'll see when the new oil pump kit arrives from egge. PN 108 .
hope it's correct .
getting sooooo close to Block assembly time.
Edited by dodge59 2013-08-02 3:50 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Van Nuys!
The Ram What AM!
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | oil pump issue still
pictures >>
this is the oil pump I took out of the 241 hemi minus the main drive gear rotor.
the kit that egge me , the shaft is 4.75" and the oneI took out of the hemi is 5"
somone appearently changed something here ..
egge says that my 5" main gear is from a early 318-340...
that does not make any sense either beacuse the early style 340 pumps have a shaft that goes all the way down to the pump and plugs in there.. mine has the main shaft , then an intermediate shaft to meet it.
I think I'm going to order a complete new oil pump and be done with it.
All this mix matching things is not a good thing.
Edited by dodge59 2013-08-02 9:18 PM
 (oil pump 40%.JPG)
 (oil pump I 40%.JPG)
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oil pump 40%.JPG (123KB - 200 downloads)
oil pump I 40%.JPG (138KB - 189 downloads)
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Expert
Posts: 3035
Location: N.W. Fla. | That's not an LA pump, they have a pentastar plate, as does the 331-392 pumps. I'm not familiar with the Dodge hemi pump as to weather this is one or not. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | here are the cast numbers on my hemi 241 oil pump
body ------ 1618952-18
cover plate 1406255-27
date 4-11
Edited by dodge59 2013-08-03 3:59 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I think that your pump is OK... the Good Book only shows 1406 253 (1955 V/8), so that's probably 'fine' for your engine.
I also see P/N 1618 950, for the 'shaft'; its Note-1 refers to engines "P29-xxx" which is the 1956
Fury models.
Your 1618 952 is also not listed in the Good Book.
I've got the 1954 Dodge A.M.A. Spec Sheets, and they say nothing of any particular interest about
your application, except that your car's normal operating oil pressure is from 40-65 psi at 1,500 RPM.
Edited by d500neil 2013-08-03 7:42 PM
 (PICT2206.JPG)
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PICT2206.JPG (107KB - 160 downloads)
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | Thanks neil
ok ...... we assume it is a 241 hemi oil pump . that number is for 1955 >>> mine is a 1954 241 hemi
now ........I just need the correct main shaft rotor and the intermediate shaft with gear that extends to the distributor.
don't know why previous builder would have changed the lengths of both shafts.. that is strange !
go figure.
Edited by dodge59 2013-08-03 9:06 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | Re: HEMI Tech: Oil systems- filters, pumps, pans
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here we go .. tr waters has the answer we have been searching for
here it is. >>>>>>>>>>>
It was longer than the one from Egge because their listing is for the earliest Dodge pump that has the 2 inch thick housing. 1406253 housing takes the shorter shaft.
Your pump takes a longer shaft because the housing is thicker. Your housing is thicker because it is a later style pump. For whatever reason, some Dodge engines were built using the 1618952 pump housing.
__________________
TR Waters Early Hemi Parts
Early Hemi to SB Mopar Trans Adapters
www.trwaters.com
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Last edited by TR Waters; Today at 04:01 PM.
Edited by dodge59 2013-08-03 9:15 PM
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Expert
Posts: 3035
Location: N.W. Fla. | A few comments, you have a rebuild kit for the OEM pump, not a purchased rebuilt pump, right? Do you have the specs for max erosion of the pump body? Even when you could buy rebuilt pumps they were checked to be "in tolerance" for a rebuild, but they didn't repair the erosion & that could result, from what I've heard, in a reduction of flow volume of up to 25% & still be "in spec" vs the flow of a new pump. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | ..Whatever floats your 'boat'...or gives you at least 60 psi @ 1,500....
Since 1981, Horrie's gauge has registered 82 psi, day in; day out..
Just drove him, tonite, with probably too-high of a B.A. ; it was fun, and he enjoyed it.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | Mopar one .. I have another o/p kit coming from egge with a longer main shaft .
will check specs clearances on it when it arrives. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | Getting closer to assembly time.
my reground hyd cam arrived today from chris neilson cams .. here are the specs.
lift > .385"
dur > advertised 252* ---- 109"@.050"
L.S.A. >> 190*
Also machine shop finished turning the crank . .010 on all journals .
So all this is left is Balancing the whole assembly and then I get it all back to assemble the engine .
It's been just over two months since I came the machine shop the 241 hemi .
can't wait !
john
Edited by dodge59 2013-08-07 10:05 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | dodge59 - 2013-08-02 7:57 PM
oil pump issue still
pictures >>
this is the oil pump I took out of the 241 hemi minus the main drive gear rotor.
the kit that egge me , the shaft is 4.75" and the oneI took out of the hemi is 5"
somone appearently changed something here ..
egge says that my 5" main gear is from a early 318-340...
that does not make any sense either beacuse the early style 340 pumps have a shaft that goes all the way down to the pump and plugs in there.. mine has the main shaft , then an intermediate shaft to meet it.
I think I'm going to order a complete new oil pump and be done with it.
All this mix matching things is not a good thing.
Re: 241 hemi oil pump kit shaft length?
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update on the new oil pump kit from egge >
total length of the shaft is .006 shorter end to end.. this isn't an issue though .
this issue is though .
my machne shop notice is when the rotor and shaft are fit in the round hole . the clearance to the top flange is alittle less. meaning it sits down in the hole less than the stock one.. to the top cover . if it is not high enough to stock specs it will have less oil pressure.
so the plan is to shave off .004" from the main body so the rotor is closer to the top cover.. just too much clearance there .
appears no body make anything right these days..
john |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | ok .... made a type error on my above post on the new reground cam specs..
let me do this again .
lift is 385
dur is 252 advertised ..... 190 @ .050
lobe separation 109
Edited by dodge59 2013-08-09 9:20 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | dodge59 - 2013-08-08 8:54 PM
dodge59 - 2013-08-02 7:57 PM
oil pump issue still
pictures >>
this is the oil pump I took out of the 241 hemi minus the main drive gear rotor.
the kit that egge me , the shaft is 4.75" and the oneI took out of the hemi is 5"
somone appearently changed something here ..
egge says that my 5" main gear is from a early 318-340...
that does not make any sense either beacuse the early style 340 pumps have a shaft that goes all the way down to the pump and plugs in there.. mine has the main shaft , then an intermediate shaft to meet it.
I think I'm going to order a complete new oil pump and be done with it.
All this mix matching things is not a good thing.
Re: 241 hemi oil pump kit shaft length?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
update on the new oil pump kit from egge >
total length of the shaft is .006 shorter end to end.. this isn't an issue though .
this issue is though .
my machne shop notice is when the rotor and shaft are fit in the round hole . the clearance to the top flange is alittle less. meaning it sits down in the hole less than the stock one.. to the top cover . if it is not high enough to stock specs it will have less oil pressure.
so the plan is to shave off .004" from the main body so the rotor is closer to the top cover.. just too much clearance there .
appears no body make anything right these days..
john
So.........my machine shop called elgin oil pumps and got the tolerance specs for a stock 241 hemi oil pump .... appears that the rotor sits too far down in the hole . suppose to sit flush .
this is the junk parts that people make nowadays.. nothing is made correct.
so .. to bring it up to the tolerances required , my machine shop will shave approx .008 of the body of the pump > so the oil pressure will be where it should be. and not lower if it wasn't corrected.
just waiting for the crank to be balanced next week and she is good to go..
time to assemble.
john
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | See what a simple "rod knock" will do 'for' you?????
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | Neil
I agree
anyway ...........supposed to have the engine parts back later this week to assemble.
oooooh boy ... getting close !
john
Edited by dodge59 2013-08-13 11:52 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | The 241 hemi is going back together .. !!
got all the parts back home except for the pistons and rods. will have the rods and pistons monday.
crank and cam are installed. ...........went together like a dream .
more tomorrow with pics.
geeee.......... so relieved this hemi is going back together. been 3 months .
Edited by dodge59 2013-08-17 10:50 PM
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Expert
Posts: 3035
Location: N.W. Fla. | Did you/shop check the oil passage to the rocker alignment in the cam bearings with a piece of rod before putting the cam in? |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | machine shop installed the cam bearings and checked all that .. they have built thousands of engine before.. they are Top notch engine builders. the best in wisconsin. built quite a few hemi's recently . they built a 392 for me a few years back. ran awesome !
" C&S Performance "
Edited by dodge59 2013-08-18 11:50 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | couple pics of my hemi rebuild .. crank and cam are installed .
block is painted too.
 (my hemi crank installed 40%.JPG)
 (hemi painted red 40%.JPG)
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my hemi crank installed 40%.JPG (194KB - 188 downloads)
hemi painted red 40%.JPG (154KB - 176 downloads)
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | pistons and rods are installed. pic
 (pistons in the holes 40%.JPG)
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pistons in the holes 40%.JPG (234KB - 124 downloads)
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Expert
Posts: 3035
Location: N.W. Fla. | Where's the "like" button? |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | All that work and you're painting the engine red?
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Expert
Posts: 3035
Location: N.W. Fla. | Sounds right for a Red Ram, better than Silver at any rate. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | the engine colors will be :
the block and oil pan will be Red and all the rest Silver .. Best of both worlds.
should look awesome .
 (valve covers painted 40%.JPG)
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valve covers painted 40%.JPG (137KB - 223 downloads)
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Expert
Posts: 3035
Location: N.W. Fla. | I'd do the heads & intake in red also, it's not like anyone would think they're alloy! :-) |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | John, if you are not resto-modding your car (in which case, all bets are off...) you
ought---I didn't say "should"..... paint your car's engine block in Corporate Silver.
Some things are just not done, to non-hot rods, or non-Chubbies.
You've come a long way, from a "Rod Knock"; please reconsider your choice of engine
paint (again, if-and-only-if you do not care about having your car look like it's a stock-restored
car).
This guy could have painted his engine in Metal-flake Chubbie, back when nobody
cared about history or provenance...but it's silver.
Somethings are just not done by people who appreciate tradition.
And, again, restomoddists don't care about tradition; that's Kool; I just thought that your
interests were in Sleeper-fying your ride, and not making it look like a candidate for Barrett
Jackson.
Correct engine block color is a point of honor to the car, and an identity to the rest of the automotive
world.
Edited by d500neil 2013-08-20 4:55 PM
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PICT2419.JPG (61KB - 144 downloads)
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca |
We are Family [1979; S. Sledge]
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PICT2433.JPG (106KB - 173 downloads)
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | thanks for your opinions guys .
but i'm not restoring my dodge for concours shows .. just wanting to paint this engine with a llittle more red than stock .. I know this 54 redram hemi is suppose to be all silver with redram painted letters and black wire covers.. just needed a little more pop when I open the hood . haha. that's all.
I'm really likeing the way it's looking so far.
 (hemi heads and pan on . 40%.JPG)
 (eads and pan on rear pic 40%.JPG)
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hemi heads and pan on . 40%.JPG (150KB - 386 downloads)
eads and pan on rear pic 40%.JPG (184KB - 160 downloads)
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | How many Chubsters, of any age/size, are painted in Silver?
Answer; virtually none.
How many Hemi/Poly Chrysler engines are seen, painted in red (some 60+ B-blocks came in red) ?
Too many.
They'll love your car, John. They'll just think that you've got a Hemi head rat rod.
Of course, it could be worse; Chubbie engines get put into F-word hot rods, too often, too.
As the Navy fly boys ('Nam era) said: "Better a sister in a brothel than a brother in F15's."
Edited by d500neil 2013-08-21 2:23 AM
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Expert
Posts: 3035
Location: N.W. Fla. | F-15s in "Nam? Seriously? |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | I seen a rat rod at a car show that had hemi valve covers modified to fit over chebbie engine heads .. .. that was so funny. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Stand by my statement.
The US NAV certainly knew about the imminent production of the F15's, and had natural service rivalry.
I didn't say that the F15 was in service, only that the NAV fly-boys were disparaging the 15's.
Better dead than (Chubbie) red.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15_Eagle
Edited by d500neil 2013-08-21 3:34 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | Update on hemi build
buttoned her up today.. she has new OIL pumped thru her veins and ready to fire up. can't wait.
She is ready to be installed into Car.
Edited by dodge59 2013-08-21 9:35 PM
 (hemi ready to be installed in 54 40%.JPG)
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hemi ready to be installed in 54 40%.JPG (167KB - 432 downloads)
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Still not too late to de-Chubby-fy the engine.
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Expert
Posts: 3035
Location: N.W. Fla. | OCD? |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Guilty as charged.
Friends don't let friends paint their engines in Chubbie red.
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8445
Location: Perth Australia | Its good fun setting them up to run (colour does not change that fun)
Advice from my engine machinist " If you get excited and make it run" (as if I wouldnt) "Dont let the egine sit. Run the cam in and make sure it is started regularly after that"
He said that its not un common for new engines to be destroyed or end up locked up because once started, all the assembly lube gets washed away and things have not fully settled into place yet.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Color matters, if it look like a Chubster; yours doesn't, Mick.
You don't see Chubbie engines painted Silver.
Right-oh; upon initial start up, get the engine immediately to about 2,000+ RPM and keep it there....for about 10 minutes.
Edited by d500neil 2013-08-22 8:29 PM
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Expert
Posts: 3035
Location: N.W. Fla. | d500neil - 2013-08-22 7:27 PM
.
Right-oh; upon initial start up, get the engine immediately to about 2,000+ RPM and keep it there....for about 10 minutes I'd say 20 min. or so. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8445
Location: Perth Australia | I did mine for 20, but I did let it idle for a few minuits first, just listening for anything to worry about (knocks, squeeks, squeels ect) then let it run
That was until the stupid core plugs started comming out 
As for the colour, I agree, I aint seen a silver chev or ford engine for that matter either, and (most likely) I wouldnt paint an engine another manufacturers colour either, but chrysler engines also came red as well for a while (not sure about the hemi), but it still runs the same as for the choice on building a car.
If your paying for it, then its your right to choose whatever you like, if someone else dont like it, then its their problem.
If I was to buy a car done by someone else and there was something not to my taste, then I would change it (if possible), if I cant and couldnt live with it, then I wouldnt buy the car.
I am sure there will be those out there that dont like what or how my dodge is comming along, but not my concern until I sell it (if I sell it)
Its the old different strokes thing
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | Update :
the redam hemi is installed in the car ..
worked on it until 10:30 pm. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,fire in the hole tomorrow.
still have all the little stuff to install yet. bottomside is all hooked up .
I am beat .. I hope it never has to come out again . |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8445
Location: Perth Australia | Mopar didnt seem to want to make it easy for the engines to come out, even with the whole front off, it wasnt that easy to get out
Best of luck tomorrow
Get that ear to ear grin ready
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | ttotired - 2013-08-22 11:36 PM
Mopar didnt seem to want to make it easy for the engines to come out, even with the whole front off, it wasnt that easy to get out
Best of luck tomorrow
Get that ear to ear grin ready
[/QUOTE
Thanks ttotired
Yeah ......I left off the h20 pump housing, the saddle and the crank pulley to free up some front space .. that worked great .. just cam straight down and level , aligned the torque converter and crank bolt holes and she plopped right in.
Was no easy job like you said though.
john |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | update !!
Good news >> ............................... the hemi is alive and well.
No issues ..... no leaks ...
she was stuborn though at first .. that 6 volt battery just does not spin the engine fast enough especially when it is the first start .
but she fired off almost immediately . after spitting and sputtering some ..
She sounds awesome and has good throttle response .. just got enough time tonight to break in the cam. all that is left is to dial her in and do some cruising.
glad that is over.
 (garrets pic installing hemi 40.JPG)
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garrets pic installing hemi 40.JPG (169KB - 310 downloads)
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8948
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | any flat tappet build should be ran at least 30 minutes at 2000 rpm and another 15 - 30 minutes fluctuating between 1500 - 2000 rpm . and never ever let it idle at start up
more than a minute or two . idle at start up the oil pump maybe slow to pick up , with chances the cam could be destroyed , and don't forget the cam lube at assembly . --------------------later |
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Expert
Posts: 3035
Location: N.W. Fla. | 60 dart - 2013-08-24 2:41 AM
any flat tappet build should be ran at least 30 minutes at 2000 rpm and another 15 - 30 minutes fluctuating between 1500 - 2000 rpm . and never ever let it idle at start up
more than a minute or two . idle at start up the oil pump maybe slow to pick up , with chances the cam could be destroyed , and don't forget the cam lube at assembly . --------------------later Most of the oil that goes to the lobes is splash oil off the crank, never let a brand new cam idle at start up. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | the 241 hemi is up and running and put on 65 miles on the freeway today . runnning strong and no leaks .
pics and video are coming.. just been sooo busy this weekend.
she is alot stronger than the old hemi !! yeahaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
little bigger cam , bigger bore , little more compression, messaged heads and gasket matched manifolds .
everything is new except for the block and rocker gear .
Edited by dodge59 2013-08-26 12:47 AM
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8445
Location: Perth Australia | Excellent
Hows that grin
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | ttotired - 2013-08-26 6:02 AM
Excellent
Hows that grin
Biggggggggggggggggggggggggg Grin !
just wanted to say ........ when on the freeway 60mph , I couldn't believe the torque it has now .. Big improvement .
engine is real smooth, no vibration and the sound out back thru the duals with dynomax mufflers is just awesome. engine temp is where it shoul be ... no over heating at all.
the hemi is breaking in more amd more everytime i start it. I can here and feel the difference.
the machine shop says to leave the brad penn breakin oil in for about 100 + miles then dump it . I changed the filter after the cam break-in already.. inside the oil filter looked good .
overall everything is looking Great !
john |
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Expert
Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | Is this this the engine that originally was just going to get a new set of rod bearings??? Turned out pretty nice!!! |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | jimntempe - 2013-08-26 9:18 AM
Is this this the engine that originally was just going to get a new set of rod bearings??? Turned out pretty nice!!!
Yes ..... this is the hemi .
like I said before I got into this hemi ............it would snowball into a complete rebuild .... Well , it did.
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Veteran
Posts: 139
Location: Lima,Ohio | You now what hemi stands for HAS EXCESSIVE MONETARY INCOME
that's why mine took years to build. Run the wheels off of it |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | canyouheminow
I like that .
you are so right there ... everything is triple the price.
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| dodge59 - 2013-08-28 9:19 AM
canyouheminow
I like that .
you are so right there ... everything is triple the price.
Just "because" as a friend of mine one said! It is a shock sometimes when you do a rebuild when you realize just how worn out and tired the engine really was! Enjoy the rest of your summer driving weather!  |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | update ... still working on those finish pics and video of my 241 hemi rebuild..
last night I just installed a pertronix iginitor and flame thrower coil in the hemi last night .. soon as I hit the key it fired up instantly. have to take her for a ride yet.
got rid of the old dual points .
Edited by dodge59 2013-08-30 1:08 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | pics of 241 hemi redram finished in my 54 dodge royal.
now it's time to have some fun .. I have a 120 miles on here so far.
running great !!
Edited by dodge59 2013-09-01 1:26 AM
 (hemi finished in car drv 40% ..JPG)
 (hemi finished in 54 40% pass.JPG)
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hemi finished in car drv 40% ..JPG (163KB - 239 downloads)
hemi finished in 54 40% pass.JPG (154KB - 230 downloads)
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | 200 miles are on the hemi now.
Running strong !
I had picked up another distributor for the hemi and installed the pertronix igintor unit in that one a autolite iaz4003F
.. I could not get the pertronix to work in the orignal 4003A distributor that i had curved.. I think it was in the vacumn advance canister with 11.5 stamped. pulling to much timing.
So I'm sticking with the 4003F dist. Works great .. has 7* stamped VA arm. and A light and heavy spring... 24*MA. built in ............. 8* IA ....................
perfect for the redram hemi .
Edited by dodge59 2013-09-01 7:48 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | almost 300 miles on the new rebuilt hemi .
only problem so far is the fuel pump started leaking oil between the upper and lower halves. diaphram is cracked.
have a new one coming.
otherwise running Great ! |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | My new fuel pump will arrive today to install into the hemi..
also I updated the hemi to a pcv valve system into the valley pan to the carb. elimintated the road draft tube . that should take care of any internal pressure in the engine if any .
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | Got the 241 hemi fuel pump .. Pretty much Identicle to the old one..
went to installed a solid fuel line with fitting ends on it. had to cut it to length and when I went to put a flarred end on it I almost broke my flaring tool .. that metal was hard I could not flare it. I even heated up the pipe end with a torch and NOooooooo luck.. put a short 2" piece of rubber hose on it for now untill I can fine a pipe tube that is not sooo hard.
what a bear . it was fighting me all the way... |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | video as promised .
my hemi redram rebuild .. running on choke High idle.
http://www.youtube.com/edit?video_id=D7CoC6a7uig
Edited by dodge59 2013-09-12 3:53 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | start up after cam break in time 20 minutes
http://s446.photobucket.com/user/stroker402/media/MVI_3167_zps67d9d...
Edited by dodge59 2013-09-15 2:27 PM
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Expert
Posts: 4654
| Sounds nice, great job!!! |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | Thanks hemidave !
I offically have 500 miles on the 241 redam hemi now..
All is well.
.
Here are a couple pics of my 1954 dodge royal that the 241 redram hemi was from I rebuilt .
As you can see , she is a "Cream Puff" . ALL ORIGINAL except for the newly rebuilt 241hemi of course and the motor Rim wheels from a 54 dodge pacecar also the radial tires. .. That's it . insides are just as clean as the outside.
She is ready to tour the country now .
john
Edited by dodge59 2013-09-16 10:43 AM
 (54 finished in drv NIce drvside 40%.JPG)
 (54 finished rear nice 40%.JPG)
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54 finished in drv NIce drvside 40%.JPG (167KB - 292 downloads)
54 finished rear nice 40%.JPG (160KB - 217 downloads)
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | it;s been about two years now with my 241 hemi rebuild and I am think about installing a set of ross forged high compression 10.1 pistons in the 241 hemi. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | <p>it's been about two years since my 241 hemi rebuild and it now has approx 1500 miles on it, not even broke in yet. ,,, runs great and I am thinking about installing a set of Ross forged high compression 10.1 pistons in the 241 hemi. question is , will my old stock rod length work with these new domed piston ? I'm assuming they will because the dome is the only thing different protruding into the cylinder head chamber.</p><p> </p><p>I'm pulling the engine out anyway and would like to make a change on it does have a step up on a reground nielson cam in it already with ported and polished heads. what are your views ? I'm NOT looking to race the engine by any means but am looking to increase the fuel mileage on the dodge. Thanks guys !</p>
Edited by dodge59 2015-08-29 7:31 PM
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8445
Location: Perth Australia | I guess the question has to be asked, Why?
Forged pistons tend to be looser in the bores (but tighten up a bit once warm), so can sound a bit rattley when cold
I dont know what your compression ratio is now, but stepping up compression ratio, normally does increase engine performance, just have to watch your timing as it could start to ping
Cast ones might be better (if they are available)
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin | dodge59 - 2015-08-29 6:42 PM yeah ...... I just read that article about the piston slapping when cold but they said also that manufacturers applied some kid of teflon coating to those repopped pistons now a days .if I rad that correctly . my compression ratio is stock at 7.5 currently . haven't seen any company out there that make cast high compression pistons for a 241 hemi out ther yet. forged pistons are very expensive for a 241 hemi and most other engines now a days.. just looking for a little more pop out of the 241 hemi and fuel economy
Edited by dodge59 2015-08-29 8:52 PM
 (ross 10.1 241 pistons.jpg)
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ross 10.1 241 pistons.jpg (47KB - 178 downloads)
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