|
|
  
| I have been experiencing the hard starting issue with both of my 361 and 383's lately, as well as other Mopar big blocks, it seems the issue is heat rises up through the engine after you shut it off, and boils the fuel in the carb and causes vapour lock. Now, there seems to be multiple "fixes" for this, but so far nothing helps much, would like to start up a conversation about what others have does to help this issue. So in my case, the engines start well at other times (worst seems about 10-15 minutes after sitting) and I'm running new Edelbrock performer 383 intakes and Edelbrock 1406 carbs. So far I have added a 1" plastic spacer under the carb, and insulation between the intake and valley pan, and wrapped the fuel line with aluminum heat insulation, no appreciable difference so far.
Ideas, thoughts, brainstorming, experience?  |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | Have you gone thru more than one tank of fuel yet? I have a hard time imagining anyone in Alberta having vapor lock problems. I'm in phx and even with the AC going on a hot day my 361 (completely stock) doesn't have any vapor lock issues. Perhaps you are still burning off your winter gas? The only thing I can think of other then that is that if you still have the heat riser installed that it's stuck in closed position and cooking the carburetor, assuming the new intake even has the crossover. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2519
Location: central Illinois | Take the insulation out from under the intake so air can get under there and see if that helps. I've got a new fuel pump, no insulation under intake and a spacer between carb and intake. No more issues here. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2264
Location: McComb, Mississippi | you can set the float a little lower.
you can also put a thicker gasket between the carburetor and intake manifold. |
|
| |
|
Walter passed away on Jul 29, 2014. We will miss you, Walt!
Posts: 5358
Location: Heaven Above (Formerly Oklahoma City,OK) | And you can add an electric fuel pump. Also check to be sure you have a good coil and that the ignition timing is correct. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2244
Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Add a phenolic insulator under the carb. You problem is not vapor lock, the car is flooded because the gas has boiled out of the carb and into the intake manifold. That's why after a half hour or so, the car starts normally but that gas in the intake manifold has finally evaporated.
I have dual 4's (Edelbrock 1406's) on the 440 in my 59 Dodge Convertible and the phenolic insulators work great, They are made my Edelbrock get the tickest one you can that will still allow the hood to close with the air cleaner on.
On my 64 I got real clever. I have a thermal switch mounted to the Barry Grant Carb. If the carb gets over 175 F, and the key is in the off position, it turns on a fan that picks up air from around the vent by the windshield and blows it on the carb. Once the carb gets below 135 F the fan shuts off. Works Great!
Gary
|
|
| |
|
Regular
Posts: 68
Location: Hilton New York | Had the same problem with my 413. My fuel line was to close to the intake and heads. I raised the fuel line 3-4 inches, seems to have solved the problem. |
|
| |
|
| Hmm, intersting responses, thanks guys...I already have a 1" Phenolic spacer under the carb, it didn't help at all. And these engines had insulation under the intake from the factory, that made no difference if it's in or not. Will try some of the other ideas, and report back! |
|
| |
|
| As a way of troubleshooting, when it's hot and wont start, pull off the air cleaner. Is the choke opened or closed? Try manipulating it manually to the opposite position and try starting again. Engine will be hard to start if mixture is too rich or too lean, whether hot or cold. When cold it needs a richer mixture. When hot it needs to lean out. These old chokes are rather dumb, and often get the mixture wrong. |
|
| |
|
Regular
Posts: 92
Location: Hollister Ca | I have been having the same issue starting my car when it sits for 10 to 15 minutes after running. At times when I'm in stop and go traffic and the temp gets past the 180* she will stall out and won't start until it cools down. I can see the fuel bubble in the inline filter. I see some suggestion above that I'm going to try out with the hopes I can find a fix. I also want to ditch the Demon carb I have been running. Runs real rich and I can't seem to get it adjusted properly. Thinking about an Edlebrock 625 cfm. Any suggestions or thoughts? |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2264
Location: McComb, Mississippi | see if you can find a station that has non ethenol gasoline in your area. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2519
Location: central Illinois | plymouth - 2013-07-21 12:14 AM
see if you can find a station that has non ethenol gasoline in your area.
That's the first thing to try! On my daily driver Ram truck I switched to the only non-ethanol fuel in the area and since then, my mileage has increased 9%. The gasoline available today is so inferior to what our cars could get originally.
If you find that the fuel is boiling out of the carb after sitting for a few minutes, which is common, an electric pump is the best way to overcome the empty bowl syndrome. I just hate adding it in and looked for ways to solve the problem of the fuel heating up.
To find out where your car is at, after driving and letting it heat up, can you remove the top plate of the carburetor and check to see if there is any gas still in the carb or if it has all boiled out? |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2264
Location: McComb, Mississippi | you can also try to lower your float level just a little bit. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | I wish I could find non-ethanol gas but there doesn't seem to be any anywhere in AZ. What the US is doing, subsidizing ethanol and corn production, and making it mandatory to put it in gas is just stupid stupid stupid. With modern pollution controls it does ZERO to further reduce the emissions from modern cars and as you've found, kills your gas mileage. Testimony to the power of money in politics. |
|
| |
|
| As far as I can see, there's no point in considering types of fuel, the writing is on the wall and soon we won't be able to get anything but ethanol fuel, anywhere. All we can do is try other methods, I'm going to try the electric fuel pump next, it's a good idea anyway when a car sits for awhile.
I think 59Dodge's idea of a fan may be the best fix, but if that's what it takes, hate to say it but it makes me think the B engine is simply a poor design, with no coolant running through the intake. I can't see myself building another one! It may have been fine back in the day with better fuel, but not now.
That being said, it's possible edelbrock carbs are a bad choice for B engines, I have three of them and all have new 1406's, and all start hard hot! Maybe I'll try a Holley, anyone running one of those? |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2244
Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | I have 2 big blocks. The 1964 Dodge has a built 413 (420 inches) and has a Barry Grant Carb.
That is the one with the electric fan, It starts right up even when hot---A high torque starter really helps and they pull less "Juice" from the battery leaving a "Hotter Spark".
This car has the standard Mopar electronic ignition.
My 1959 has a 440 with 476 hp and 535 ft/lbs of torque. It has Edelbrock aluminum heads as well as Edelbrock aluminum intake manifold,(No heat crossover), that mounts 2 Edelbrock (1405 & 1406) carbs.
I installed the Edelbrock insulators under each carb, and the car starts right up, even when hot. Again the car has the high torque, (gear reduction) starter and has the MSD ignition.
I live in Southern California, and I use Arco 87 octane in the 59 and 89 octane in the 64. (Not sure about the ethanol content), Sorry!
I think the high torque starters help the most, because even if the engine is flooded, the starter spins the crap outta the engine, alto neither floods since I put the spacers in the 59.
Before I did that, on a hot day, one carb would even boil when the engine was running and flood the engine, this was the old 400 engine, which ran very cool,
but it had the heat cross over in the intake mainfold, (I blocked it off).
It actually had an aluminum spacer under the carb that boiled (sheeeshhh), anyway after addi9ng the correct Edeblock spacers and blocking off the heat crossover, the car ran and started great.
Later I replaced the 400 with a 440.
A quick way to tell if the car is either vapor locked or it is flooded is to temove the air cleaner, look down in the carb, pull on the carb linkage (so you activate the accelerator pump), see if you see gas squirting inside the carb as you advance the linkage. If you see no gas, then the car is vapor locked, as a "double check" pour a small amount of gas in the carb, (being careful not to spill it on the hot intake manifold, engine or exaust), Then see if the car starts, (stay away from the carb when you crank it). If it starts, again the problem is a vapor lock.
(The car may start but soon die, if the vapor lock is still present).
If you saw gas when you activated the carb linkage, then the car is flooded. (Many times you can smell it too).
Good luck with it!!!
Gary
Edited by 1959Dodge 2013-07-22 12:39 PM
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 467
Location: Sweden | I had the exact same problem with my 57 Fireflite. I changed almost everything in the fuel system and put insulation under the
intake.
But after I almost gave up, a guy told me to try another ignition coil. And after that the car started even when hot! |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | Excellent point. SOmetimes we get too focused on fuel and forget that "hot" can affect other things too. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2519
Location: central Illinois | 58dodgeregent - 2013-07-08 11:54 PM
I have been experiencing the hard starting issue with both of my 361 and 383's lately, as well as other Mopar big blocks, it seems the issue is heat rises up through the engine after you shut it off, and boils the fuel in the carb and causes vapour lock. Now, there seems to be multiple "fixes" for this, but so far nothing helps much, would like to start up a conversation about what others have does to help this issue. So in my case, the engines start well at other times (worst seems about 10-15 minutes after sitting) and I'm running new Edelbrock performer 383 intakes and Edelbrock 1406 carbs. So far I have added a 1" plastic spacer under the carb, and insulation between the intake and valley pan, and wrapped the fuel line with aluminum heat insulation, no appreciable difference so far.
Ideas, thoughts, brainstorming, experience? :)
You don't mention anything about a fuel pump on either car. IMO, get rid of the intake insulation, and the heat shield on the fuel line. The new coil is an excellent suggestion too, but don't go overboard, a stock replacement is good. Get a high torque starter (it's all I ever run) and try a new mechanical pump first. They're pretty cheap and easy to swap. Pay attention to which end of the pushrod is contacting the camshaft.
I've got no hot starting problems starting my '69 440 with stock cast iron intake, heat crossover open, original 44 year old coil, gigantic dual snorkel air cleaner, hood insulation pad, and a new mechanical pump. And I'm talking it fires right up on 100F days. I've considered using a small electric pump just for starting after storage when the line is empty.
If you do the electric pump I'd be curious about your choice of pump, installation point and noise level of the pump. Good luck.
Edited by b5rt 2013-07-22 7:41 PM
|
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 7417
Location: northern germany | b5rt - 2013-07-22 7:27 PM
get rid of the intake insulation, try a new mechanical pump first
I've got no hot starting problems
x2
driving big block cars with mechanical pumps and working heat riser, for 25+ years and never ever had starting problems. it definitely idles nicer without the insulation.
check your timing and make sure its not running lean.
Edited by 1960fury 2013-07-22 8:15 PM
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2524
Location: Houston | Well.....all these replies and no one mentioned the best 'trick' I have found for fuel boiling in the fuel lines. Keep in mind I am in Texas, where it gets hot, and these issues have existed for decades; not just with crappy gas they serve up today.
I always have to marvel at people who give advice on hot climate problems - any they live in cold areas! Nobody in Germany or Ohio or Minnesota really understands how cars behave in hot weather. What works great in New York means zero in Texas.
Electric pumps are dandy but they are their whole own pain the arse, especially on a FL type car.
Look at a '68 Charger, for instance, and you'll see the answer. The fuel filter has one inlet, and two outlets. One is large and is meant to feed the carb. The other is much smaller, and is connected to a small hard line that runs back to the tank. This allows the pressure in the line to bleed off when you stop the engine. That puts an end to all the troubles. Trust me...with this setup you can forget all the electric pumps, phenolic spacers, clothespins, coil changeouts, etc.
Edited by GregCon 2013-07-22 10:51 PM
|
|
| |
|
Location: North Australia | Greg, first time I heard that one. Can you show me a filter made like this? Can you put the bypass back to the pump inlet tube? I live in the tropics of Aussie, so all ideas are to be considered.
Steve.
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2524
Location: Houston |
I don't know who makes them anymore since I haven't bought one in years but here is an example of what one looks like. I know Fram used to make them, probably others do to.
I don't think a bypass would work well as the inlet line contains liquid fuel and that would act as a stopper. You would need to run a line back to the tank like the factory did.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000C3B9XW |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 7417
Location: northern germany | GregCon - 2013-07-22 10:49 PM
I always have to marvel at people who give advice on hot climate problems - any they live in cold areas! Nobody in Germany or Ohio or Minnesota really understands how cars behave in hot weather.
nonsense. i've driven/ hot started my bb cars in 102° F weather without any issues. wouldn't you call that hot? how much hotter does it get in texas? and since when do you have to live in texas to know what causes hard hot starting? and the op comes from someone living in a "cold area". so?
these cars were reliable daily drivers 50+ years ago and sold well around the globe without any return lines. these cars were thoroughly tested before they were put on the road and people weren't living on trees back then.
mopars were very popular dependable taxis in turkey and africa in the 50s were it gets at least as hot as in texas. drive in the crowded sweltering alleys in istanbul stop and go at 120° and heat becomes a new meaning to you. if a (stock) car does not start when hot in 110 F° weather there is a malfunction (unless inferior fuel is the cause) fix that and don't add any smart ass gimmicks.
Edited by 1960fury 2013-07-23 11:37 AM
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2519
Location: central Illinois | To be fair, my 69 440 does have the return line Greg is talking about. It originally had a vapor separator which I've left off because the repop's are $50 plus. I'm running a filter purchased from O'Reilly's that the application was for an early 70's Buick, IIRC.
But I believe Sid's right, these cars performed correctly for years in extreme conditions and if all components are current, they should still be able to. I don't believe modern fuels can withstand the heat when they're parked and they're more prone to boiling it off when parked. If a modern car didn't have the electric pumps generating huge pressure, they'd suffer too. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2524
Location: Houston | Regardless of what was the case 40 years ago, we have to use the gas that's available today.
I'd run the vapor line to keep the fuel happy in the lines and the phenolic spacer to keep the carb fuel from boiling and you should be OK.
|
|
| |
|
| Well I tried the electric fuel pump- no difference at all. However I think the pump is a great idea to have anyway, for when a car sits long periods, and in case your mechanical pump fails, which has happened to be before. Only thing left to try is the return line, I do know some 80's Dodge trucks even with 318's came with them, stock. |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 7207
Location: Victoria, BC, on Vancouver Island, Canada | We had the Saratoga in Wenatchee WA 2 weeks ago for the Nortwest WPC Meet and had 3 days of 105 degree temperatures, and 2 days 95-100, and I had no starting problems. Granted it took longer to start after sitting for 15 minutes but still started after a cranking over for several seconds. I have no insulation above the valley pan, beneath the intake manifold. The rebuilder didn't replace it. I have a standard mechanical fuel pump as well. |
|
| |
|
| Ian, do you have a stock starter, or a newer high-torque model in there? My car is definitely getting fuel to the carb at all times, I checked that...so it's not a fuel issue at all. I'm wondering now if the starter is robbing too much juice from the ignition, I've seen this sort of issue before in some cars. I replaced the relay-to-starter cable with a big fat new one, I doubt that will help but it can't hurt.
One thing I have not done is a compression test...It's entirely possible and even likely that the engine is just a bit tired and can't suck in the mixture quite as well when hot, seen that before too...combined with the crappy fuel we have now. I noticed the other day a chevy 350 even started a bit hard hot, and that's not typical of them at all in my experience.
Edited by Resurrector 2013-08-16 8:03 PM
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | I've generally found that hot cars start better if you push the throttle down to about 1/3 to 1/2 as you are cranking. WHen they sit in the heat all the gas that evaps from the carb has filled the whole air cleaner and intake and makes the initial mixture way too rich. Opening the throttle helps dilute that rich mixture faster than if you leave it closed. |
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 20
| I have a 78 dodge pickup and it was very hard to start when it had been sitting for 10 to 15 minutes after shutting down as well. I tried every one of the tips that I had ever heard for vapor lock and none of them worked for me. Turns out my timing was advance by about 2 or 3 degrees to much. It made the truck run much better on the road and even better with a load but the hot starts truly sucked. I dialed the timing back just a touch and that made all of the difference in the world. The truck has a 318 la motor in it |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1352
Location: Springville, CA | Does your car start well when stone cold? |
|
| |
|
| I've tried the timing in every possible position. The car starts well in every other time, either when cold, warm after half an hour or more sitting, and if you start it right away after shutting it off hot. I was thinking, the compression doesn't make sense either because my new 383 acts exactly the same. It has to be the fuel we are stuck with now. Maybe there's an additive that will help? |
|
| |
|
| Tried the fuel return line tonight - no difference at all. This site has some good ideas :http://www.moparchat.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-32192.html
Next thing I will try is a newer Chrysler high-torque starter, if it will fit the 1960 bellhousing?? It sounds like some have solved the issue with that, and it can't hurt. Another thing is to have a valley pan that blocks the exhaust crossover off, not sure if mine is or not.
The timing could be a factor still as well, it's a seperate issue but this Mopar Performance distributor is giving the engine WAY too much advance at 1500-2000 rpm. But yet, I've tried every possible timing position, doesn't seem to matter in this case.
Edited by Resurrector 2013-09-04 12:23 AM
|
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 8948
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | when its hot and won't start what does the heat gauge say and how hot is it when you shut it off-----------------------------------------------------later
Edited by 60 dart 2013-09-04 3:32 AM
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3891
Location: Northen Virginia | it is a mystery really, I just started my 413 after 6 moths.... filled the carb with the electric pump, 2 pumps with the accelerator and the car started right away, the optima battery (7 years old) still work great.
But same problem in here, when hot I have also a problem, I have a petronix conversion, a 40K accel coil and plugs. Edelbrook carburetor and stock intake with out any insulation.
Just for the records Summit is selling a carburetor who is a clone of the best of Holley and Carter I guess, the nice feature is a clear window which allow you to see the fuel level. my friend installed it on his 66 vette and he said is the best thing ever.
Edited by hemidenis 2013-09-04 8:16 PM
 (sum-m08750vs_w.jpg)
Attachments
----------------
 sum-m08750vs_w.jpg (32KB - 261 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3891
Location: Northen Virginia | Sid is right, theses cars used to lived in any climate... but we don't know for real if they have any problems back then a hard cranked car maybe mean nothing back then, however we have to consider that the fuels are not the same.
But again, why some FL cars have this problems and others not.
|
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 8948
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | after reading all this , my thoughts are the motor is heat soaking by way of not enough cooling during driving which in return "at shut off" would boil the carb , vapor lock , mess with the valves
along with all the other interior components causing a low battery like start . i say clean up the cooling system !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! --------------------------------------------------later |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 7417
Location: northern germany | hemidenis - 2013-09-04 8:14 PM
Summit is selling a carburetor who is a clone of the best of Holley I guess,
YES! its a rebadged (discontinued) HOLLEY 4010 the best carb ever build which is based on the famous autolite 4100 from the 50s. the boosters even interchange i was told. have been running these carbs for over 20 years without any problems. didn't even need a rebuild! but you can rebuild one in a few minutes if needed. 95% of regular holley parts interchange. the holley 4010 family had a very bad reputation (hence discontinued) because many people are too stupid to read instructions. the summit carb is said to be an improved version but i've heard its made in china now with new tooling 
Edited by 1960fury 2013-09-05 7:34 AM
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3891
Location: Northen Virginia | yes Summit=china |
|
| |
|
| Quote from Moparchat.com: "That AFB style Edelbrock will really soak up the heat when the engine is shut off when it is hot. A MUST is running a exhaust crossover block off valley pan gasket. If you went with a stock valley pan you need to yank it off and change it out! Second a phnolic spacer will make a difference. Mind you that when you add one, your throttle cable length and your kickdown linkage adjustment will change as well hood clearance so take note.
double check your timing and make sure it is right; too much advance will cause a DRAG when you start it hot."
The exhaust crossover makes perfect sense, I'm going to block it off next. This also may explain why some BB Mopars start better hot than others - the crossover is known for becoming plugged off with carbon, which would ironically, potentially "fix" the issue. And make it harder to run smooth cold in the winter, not like most of us care about that!
Will report back with findings. |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 8445
Location: Perth Australia | I have the exhaust crossover blocked off in my poly 2x4 (it was cracked), anyway (and I am not sure this is the
real cause), but when I start the engine, I get a lot of water comming out the exhaust.
Its not useing water from the radiator, but the other thing is that the car is not on the road yet, so it mostly gets idled (with a few rev ups in between) then shut down
May be that it just doesnt get hot enough to make the water turn to steam and dissapear?
Just an observation
|
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 7417
Location: northern germany | Resurrector - 2013-09-11 1:04 AM
The exhaust crossover makes perfect sense, I'm going to block it off next.
think twice before you do it. do some site search. they were put on every carburetor engine for a reason. you live in alberta and i wouldn't recommend running an engine without heat riser in florida. |
|
| |
|
| ttotired - 2013-09-12 1:30 AM
I have the exhaust crossover blocked off in my poly 2x4 (it was cracked), anyway (and I am not sure this is the
real cause), but when I start the engine, I get a lot of water comming out the exhaust.
Its not useing water from the radiator, but the other thing is that the car is not on the road yet, so it mostly gets idled (with a few rev ups in between) then shut down
May be that it just doesnt get hot enough to make the water turn to steam and dissapear?
Just an observation
I would say that is the issue, you aren't allowing your exhaust to get good and hot, just my guess.
Have you noticed or had opportunity to see if the car starts hard after 15-20 minutes? |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 8948
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | ttotired - 2013-09-11 3:30 AM
I have the exhaust crossover blocked off in my poly 2x4 (it was cracked), anyway (and I am not sure this is the
real cause), but when I start the engine, I get a lot of water comming out the exhaust.
Its not useing water from the radiator, but the other thing is that the car is not on the road yet, so it mostly gets idled (with a few rev ups in between) then shut down
May be that it just doesnt get hot enough to make the water turn to steam and dissapear?
Just an observation
there's a commercial on tv of a dark blue mudtang showing the back end of the car as the man and wife drive off . i told my wife that they must of just pulled
the car off the trailer . it was dripping from the tail pipe . just cold pipes , hot exhaust gases making water . it'll stop after it warms up ---------------------later |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 8445
Location: Perth Australia | I havnt had any dramas starting it hot or cold
2 compression strokes and its off, just so long as I have started it regularly, if I leave it for a couple of weeks, it takes a bit more
|
|
| |
|
| 1960fury - 2013-09-12 7:07 AM
Resurrector - 2013-09-11 1:04 AM
The exhaust crossover makes perfect sense, I'm going to block it off next.
think twice before you do it. do some site search. they were put on every carburetor engine for a reason. you live in alberta and i wouldn't recommend running an engine without heat riser in florida.
Well after the research I've done, I'm not seeing anything supporting your stance on it...unless the car is to be driven in cool climates, and has a cast iron intake. My convertible is definitely NOT for cold weather. I have other cars for those climates.
I actually called Mopar Performance, they recommended a Phenolic or wood-fiber spacer first, and then blocking the crossover off, that's all the convincing I need.
The feeling that comes from cranking your engine in a parking lot for 10 seconds or more...the embarrassment and fear that it will not start...it's a horrible feeling...and negates any cold weather rough running issues. My recent 6500 KM road trip with my Fury in some very hot areas in California and Nevada really made me wish I had a modern injected motor in there - it barely started EVERY SINGLE TIME I stopped for more than 5 minutes. That gets old really &*#@ing fast. And delivered a rather pathetic 14.8 mpg to boot, and threatened to overheat in traffic, often. Not exactly comforting to my family and I. At this point I hope that 361 blows up so I can update it, I've never build another old mill. Fact is, when you put as many miles on as I do, newer motors are superior in every way except maybe for visual appeal (which means squat when it won't start).
I've seen a lot of posts implying that our modern fuel has made this blocking off a necessity. So YES the crossover was there for a reason, but like it or not, times have changed.
Just wait 'til 15% ethanol is forced on us (apparently next year in North America), it's going to get worse.
But time will tell. I do know that aluminum intake gets rediculously hot. I'm now convinced aluminum intakes and Edelbrock AFB style carbs absolutely worsen the situation, I don't recommend either on BB Mopars.
I've come to the conclusion most classic car owners don't have these issues because they don't actually DRIVE their cars like I do, as daily drivers - only leisurely sunday drives or to a car show and back. My cars get many miles put on, and often year round; therefore I hold them to higher standards for their drivability and starting!
Edited by Resurrector 2013-09-13 1:09 AM
|
|
| |
|
| As a side note, I solved my timing issue - I didn't check the clearance of the Mopar Performance distributor's reluctor-to-pickup, mine was way more than the specified .008. When I set that properly, the vacuum advance worked correctly. Lesson learned, to anyone who gets a Mopar distributor kit, it's ESSENTIAL to check that clearance, as they recommend in the instructions!!
Edited by Resurrector 2013-09-13 12:59 AM
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2264
Location: McComb, Mississippi | Would changing ignition timing to compensate for modern fuels help?? I'm just curious. |
|
| |
|
Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 13055
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | I would say no to that - the issue has to do with heat. It might help with new gaskets and rubber parts in the fuel pump and carburetor.
Then again, some has this problem, some don't.
I'm using the butterfly manifold heat valve and the exhaust crossover channel is open and working. I have no particular problems with hot-starting, but if the weather is really hot as well as the engine, then the gasoline will evaporate in the carburetor and I also guess that the check valve function in the fuel pump allows the fuel to drain backwards.
Practically, that means that I will have to crank the engine some more in such occasions, but I wouldn't consider that a problem |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2244
Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | I have aluminum intakes on both my Big block Dodges, (413 and a 440).
The 413 has a Barry Grant Carb, and it starts right up , hot or cold.
The 440 has dual quads, Edelbrock 1405 & 1406, it starts right up hot or cold too
and I drive the heck outta both cars. It has been hot here in S Calif, for a week or 2
and I have been driving both cars with no starting problems.
I do have high torque starters on both cars.
Gary |
|
| |
|
| Thanks Gary, your posts have really helped steer me in the right direction. I finally have found a significant change: I blocked the exhaust crossover off.
I did my usual heat-up test after blocking the passages off, by letting the car run with the electric cooling fan unhooked so the engine got good and hot, (well over 200 degrees) then shut it down and waited 15 minutes. Then I cranked it, it turned over still for around 5 seconds, but it started, which was a VAST improvement over the previous (open crossover) 10 second crank. And driving it around town today, after coming out of a store after sitting 10 + minutes, it fired up within 2 seconds and ran perfectly every time. (Of course, the engine wasn't as hot as when I did the heat-up test, but you can see the improvement...the car used to start hard once engine was up to operating temp regardless of outside tempurature, within reason...I would imagine at -20 below it would have been better, but who cares about that temp on a classic?)
So in my final analysis, the single best solution IMO is to pull your intake and block those crossover ports off. IF YOU ARE RUNNING AN ALUMINUM INTAKE AND AN EDELBROCK 1406, IT'S ESSENTIAL. Secondly, as Gary says, a high torque starter would improve the situation even more, although I'm still unsure if you can put a high torque unit on the pre-62 bellhousing, the mounting area is different. For you '62-up owners, the high torque starter is a no-brainer, it's better all around.
I couldn't find a valley pan without the open crossover ports, so I actually tack-welded them shut with pieces of thin tin cut exactly to fit inside the hole and a MIG welder...finicky though, and I'm sure somebody makes a closed -crossover valley pan. Edelbrock does not, strangely.
As for cold starting? I fired the car up this morning at less than 10 degrees celsius, and it fired up within 2 seconds and sat there purring like a kitten. One side note to this, it's probably obvious but YOU NEED TO RUN AN ELECTRIC CHOKE WITH THE CROSSOVER BLOCKED, as the original heat controlled one mounted on the intake manifold likely would not work properly. |
|
| |
|
| And, if you STILL aren't satisfied with the hot starting, dig on this (from "Gordr", a smart Albertan on a Studebaker Forum
QUOTE - "Part of the answer is an electric fuel pump. The other part of the answer is to install a manual switch, and use it to cut off the fuel pump a few seconds before shutting the engine down. Then develop a new driving habit. When the car is warmed up, or downright hot, and you park somewhere, switch off the fuel pump as you are making your final parking maneuver, and let the engine idle until it stalls from lack of fuel, instead of promptly shutting off the ignition switch. A carburetor bowl that is empty cannot percolate fuel into the manifold and flood it.
For this to work, you will have to remove or bypass the mechanical fuel pump. You should also have a fuel pump relay controlled by oil oil pressure or ignition pulses as a safety measure to ensure that the fuel pump doesn't keep running in the event of a wreck."
Edited by Resurrector 2013-09-24 1:48 AM
|
|
| |
|
Location: North Australia | The FelPro intake valley pan gasket with the crossover blocked part No is 1215.
You get 4 paper gaskets too, but I did not use them with the cast iron manifold on my engine. The new metal gasket was a perfect match for the one I took out 'sept no crossover holes.
I used the old one as a template to match up the head and manifold ports. In the process I removed a significant amount of metal from both parts to match them up.
This is on my 1960 413 Imperial engine. I also removed the exhaust butterfly and matched up the exhaust ports.
The standard manifold has a NOS kitted Carter bolted onto it (the original owner gave me his spare he bought 50 years ago!). I did match the ports and cleaned up the manifold intake runners up as far as I could with a 6" long burr.
I have limit run time so far, but I checked the choke operation with the engine hot and it had opened right up. I did add a light spring to assist it opening up. The engine is running well, but I should say the temperature here rarely goes below 25C.
I have noticed the car takes 3 seconds or so to fireup hot. Cold it starts immediately.
Steve. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3891
Location: Northen Virginia | I had problems with hot start, I did the electric pump, which is controlled by a oil pressure sender working only when pressure is zero and the key is on, I noticed NO difference, it even got worst it was my opinion. It helps when the carb is empty after the car sat for a period of time. |
|
| |
|
Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 13055
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | That will support the earlier statement that the fuel "percolates" out of the carburator and floods the engine! An electric pump will not help, unless a shut-off switch will be mounted, just as Jeff wrote above. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3891
Location: Northen Virginia | I drove my car 61 New yorker last night after been in the garage for 8 months (with fuel stabilizer) started no problem (no Choke) about 65 degrees temperature, drove 5 minutes to the gas station to put some air in the tires, car was still basically cold but no problem and starts right back up, so I drove to my friend house about 45minutes trip around 65/75 miles an hour, perfect response good power car did great!!!
Arrived to my friend's and after about 15-20 minutes he asked me to put his car in the driveways for safety, because is a lot of traffic on his street.
Surprise!! the car just won't start, keep crank it and nothing, fortunately for me I installed a fuel pressure gauge and it was showing a good 5psi from the electric 10psi from the mechanic pump when I cranked the car. so it was not a fuel issue.
I checked the spark......NO Spark.. the Ignitor II I suspected, so before I disassemble the whole distributor I took the coil out (virtually new accel yellow brakeless used with resistor) and was very hot!! and I did a basic test just using the battery and a good spark plug, and almost no spark, I went to the trunk and got my spare coil (used Aceel beakless too) and installed it...... Crank crank crank...Mothf ^#%..... nothing.
How big are the chances for two perfect working coils to be bad???? Almost none I guess. Well I took the spare coil back and did a direct hook up to the battery and again almost no spark, was the battery then??? I Thought, I was kind of lost for a moment there, specially with my friend on my side asking me 1.238.992.135.884.411 questions.
Went to autozone and got 19.95 coil CHINESE and is did a battery direct connection test and i got a pretty good blue/orange spark, without using the resistor.
Installed.......1/2 turn and the car start right up, idling beautifully.....
Conclusion, guys.... check the coil, those suckers also get really hot, the Accel hypothetically are a very good product, but both are in the trash now.
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3035
Location: N.W. Fla. | hemidenis - 2013-09-29 10:37 AM
I drove my car 61 New yorker last night after been in the garage for 8 months (with fuel stabilizer) started no problem (no Choke) about 65 degrees temperature, drove 5 minutes to the gas station to put some air in the tires, car was still basically cold but no problem and starts right back up, so I drove to my friend house about 45minutes trip around 65/75 miles an hour, perfect response good power car did great!!!
Arrived to my friend's and after about 15-20 minutes he asked me to put his car in the driveways for safety, because is a lot of traffic on his street.
Surprise!! the car just won't start, keep crank it and nothing, fortunately for me I installed a fuel pressure gauge and it was showing a good 5psi from the electric 10psi from the mechanic pump when I cranked the car. so it was not a fuel issue.
I checked the spark......NO Spark.. the Ignitor II I suspected, so before I disassemble the whole distributor I took the coil out (virtually new accel yellow brakeless used with resistor) and was very hot!! and I did a basic test just using the battery and a good spark plug, and almost no spark, I went to the trunk and got my spare coil (used Aceel beakless too) and installed it...... Crank crank crank...Mothf ^#%..... nothing.
How big are the chances for two perfect working coils to be bad???? Almost none I guess. Well I took the spare coil back and did a direct hook up to the battery and again almost no spark, was the battery then??? I Thought, I was kind of lost for a moment there, specially with my friend on my side asking me 1.238.992.135.884.411 questions.
Went to autozone and got 19.95 coil CHINESE and is did a battery direct connection test and i got a pretty good blue/orange spark, without using the resistor.
Installed.......1/2 turn and the car start right up, idling beautifully.....
Conclusion, guys.... check the coil, those suckers also get really hot, the Accel hypothetically are a very good product, but both are in the trash now.
Years ago my Dad's '69 Plym crapped out on him. He decided the condenser was bad, replaced it, nothing. Went on replacing a part @ a time untill everything was replaced, still nothing. So he started over, after installing another new condenser it started right up. You never know! |
|
| |
|
| Hearing about coil problems makes me wonder if that's why Chrysler started mounting the coil on the fenderwell on the '80's 5th avenues with 318's? |
|
| |
|
| FOLLOW UP- solution found, and it is...edelbrock carbs are GARBAGE, their design is a complete fail for modern fuel if you run them in typical, above-zero Celsius temps and conditions. They work fine for snowplow trucks in cold weather, as in -20 degrees. I bolted on old late 1970's - early 80's Quadrajets off of Chevy trucks, on both my 361 and 383, both cars start and run absolutely fantastic now. Never took apart either one, just used a new base gasket.
I'm not exaggerating in any way here, it was that cut and dried. I'm going to pick up a few extra Quadrajets when I come across them just to have on hand, they are valuable to me more than ever with our crummy ethanol fuel. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1352
Location: Springville, CA | I love Rochester Quadrajet carburetors. They're almost infinitely tunable and CAN improve overall gas mileage due to their very small promaries. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3035
Location: N.W. Fla. | An insulator between the intake & the Edel carb solved hot start problems a couple Summers ago. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3891
Location: Northen Virginia | Mopars are always a mystery, some of them work others don't under the same conditions. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2519
Location: central Illinois | Resurrector - 2014-06-20 10:39 PM
FOLLOW UP- solution found, and it is...edelbrock carbs are GARBAGE, their design is a complete fail for modern fuel if you run them in typical, above-zero Celsius temps and conditions. They work fine for snowplow trucks in cold weather, as in -20 degrees. I bolted on old late 1970's - early 80's Quadrajets off of Chevy trucks, on both my 361 and 383, both cars start and run absolutely fantastic now. Never took apart either one, just used a new base gasket.
I'm not exaggerating in any way here, it was that cut and dried. I'm going to pick up a few extra Quadrajets when I come across them just to have on hand, they are valuable to me more than ever with our crummy ethanol fuel.
Edelbrock carbs are junk, LOL. Guess it depends on which you run. I don't run the Performer AFB, I run the Thunder AVS and have had absolutely no issues. 3 different Thunders on 3 different 440's with mechanical pumps on cast iron intakes. It does help to have a working knowledge on how these carbs work and how easy they are to tune. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | My 64 T-bird from a couple years back had an Edelbrock (1409???) on it when I got it and I think it had been on it for 10 years. It ran beautifully. The carbs I've had I'll call junk are the Holley's. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 409
Location: Tampa, Florida |
I had a similar problem with my 68 Roadrunner, 383. flooded when hot, would restart after it cooled.
The gasket at the needle and seat had worn down or dried out. When you shut the car off the residual pressure from the fuel pump was pushing gas past the gasket and flooding the carb.
When we finally figured this out, all it took was a quarter turn on the seat to tighten it up, problem solved.
|
|
| |