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Expert
Posts: 4043
Location: Connecticut | Somebody recently posted on the Forward Look facebook page that the torsion bars on his 60 Dart were worn out and that the car would not maintain proper height and would sink down no matter how far he adjusted them upward. I doubted that torsion bars 'wear out', but then another person posted a link to the Firm Feel website where they offer a torsion bar reconditioning service, including heat treating, etc. So what do y'all say ? Ron |
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Expert
Posts: 3778
Location: NorCal |
I think "fatigue" is a better descriptive term than "wear out". After so many years of torsional twisting the bar can no longer take it and the car will begin to settle. |
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: New Orleans-ish | What about swapping right and left sides? Wouldn't that cause this issue? |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | leaf springs can be recurved , so why not torsion bars buttttt springs do wear out when over stressed------------------------------------------------later |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I, like Ron, have been into FWDLK's since at least the 80's; and although it SOUNDS logical that our cars' T/bars could 'wear out',
I have not previously ever encountered a real occurrence or situation where a car's T/bars fatigued to an obvious extent .
I say "obvious", because a GNAT's weight can bend a steel bar.
Back when they were new, failed/broken T/bars were known to occur, either from bad metallurgy or (probably) the bars were installed
on the wrong side, or maybe, even mis-matched) on a car.
LOL; I'd be much more concerned about installing NOS T/bars on my car, with no performance history on them (as I did, with the 952/953
bars that have been on my car, now, for a decade)....than in installing a set of wrecking yard T/bars.
The 'proof' in the pudding is that Chrysler issued no known Technical Service Bulletins on any T/bar problems during 1957-58.
Edited by d500neil 2014-09-15 5:15 PM
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Expert
Posts: 4043
Location: Connecticut | I share DeMopar's opinion that at some point, the TBs were transposed. When I reinstalled the TBs on both my Plymouth and Dodge, I was able to get the car to proper height with at least an inch (or more) of thread to spare. Even if they began to fatigue or if the owner put a much heavier engine in place of its stock 318, he should be able to adjust the height by adding an extra turn or two on the adjusters. I would think that the TBs would have snapped rather than twisted to the point where the front end was sagging. The owner is going to get new TBs from Firm Feel. I'm curious to see if there's a difference. Ron |
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Expert
Posts: 2120
Location: atlanta | T bars don't lose their ability to bear the weight of the suspension, they either snap or they are good to go, who among us, other than the proverbial salmon and liars have ever seen a pair of worn out T bars? |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8443
Location: Perth Australia | On Sunday, I had 3 60 dodges here and took advantage of the opportunity to bounce the front on them all, and they are all soft (to me)
My cars suspension is basically new, but the shocks are a standard type, not sports, but the question is, how do you stiffen the suspention in these cars?
I dont like the wallowing feel with the suspension diving under braking and lots of body roll
I know a sway bar will help a bit, but what else?
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Expert
Posts: 2120
Location: atlanta | UH, maybe stiffer front ajustable shocks, or as a last resort, a 70 Ford maverick front clip with the A arms welded solid, that's all I got. |
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Location: Perth Australia | I was thinking F150 or something, but you think maverick will do?
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Expert
Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | ttotired - 2014-09-15 3:25 PM On Sunday, I had 3 60 dodges here and took advantage of the opportunity to bounce the front on them all, and they are all soft (to me) My cars suspension is basically new, but the shocks are a standard type, not sports, but the question is, how do you stiffen the suspention in these cars? I dont like the wallowing feel with the suspension diving under braking and lots of body roll I know a sway bar will help a bit, but what else? About the only way to stiffen the "bounce" is either stiffer shocks and/or stiffer springs. I added a factory sway bar to my 60 Matador and it made a significant improvement. Before I added it going around corners at any speed just felt tipy and sloppy like a typical old car is expected to feel, maybe better than the equivalet Ford of the day but still old car feeling. I had seriously thought of replaceing my brand new gabriel shocks with KGY's to tighten it up. But now that I've added the sway bar I'm happy with it overall. It's no sports car but now it goes around corners without feeling like it's going to scrub the outer front tire right off the rim or scrape the door handle on the pavement. |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: Perth Australia | I was sort of thinking that way
Its a project for after licensing, but sway bars for 60 dodges arnt that common here
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Expert
Posts: 2120
Location: atlanta | Had a 61 Phoenix with a 413, cornering, not slolom, was like aus pucker fator X8 |
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Posts: 3575
Location: Netherlands | ronbo97 - 2014-09-15 6:03 AM
Somebody recently posted on the Forward Look facebook page that the torsion bars on his 60 Dart were worn out and that the car would not maintain proper height and would sink down no matter how far he adjusted them upward. I doubted that torsion bars 'wear out', but then another person posted a link to the Firm Feel website where they offer a torsion bar reconditioning service, including heat treating, etc. So what do y'all say ? Ron
That's indeed pretty much BS for me. Like said, they either break or just function are designed with a minor height adjustment.
No torsion bar suddenly changes into an ever twistable and adjustable iron bar.
Most likely, if his car really can't hold the rideheight, part of the threads on the adjusters have failed.
Upgrading the ride and handling qualities of a (American) car usually starts by increasing springrates to a more modern level and installing shocks to match the new springrates and intended use of the car.
Increase of springrate prevents a car from bottoming out on bumps and dips while also, to an extend, prevent some bodyroll.
A front (and rear) swaybar are also torsion bars which also should be matched to the bodyweight and use of the car.
Shocks will just dampen and control the spring-actions.
Stronger springs also need better valved shocks otherwise the spring will overpower the shock.
I've been playing the suspension upgrade game on my daily '73 Dodge Dart for awhile now.
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Expert 5K+
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Location: Perth Australia | Thats what I mean
If I wanted to stiffen the suspension, I really would need stronger tortion bars, but I dont think it would be possible to just wander into a suspension shop and order new heavier bars like you can with coil springs
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | leaf springs get week and break . torsion bars they might get week but never in 50 yrs of driving and seeing these cars have i even seen one or even heard of one breaking and won't believe it till
i seen one that's been broke . wouldn't it be logical that if ride height couldn't be adjusted by torsion bar , there would be no ride height at all . if ya can't raise it how would it hold ride height of any
position . show me a broken one still in a car and i'll believe it and tell ya you're right , seems fair to me . sometimes i agree just to agree , sometimes i don't ! ------------------------------------later |
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Expert
Posts: 2120
Location: atlanta | I broke one, well it wasn't as funny to me this morning as it was last night so i deleted the rest.
Edited by fenix 2014-09-16 12:15 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1906
Location: Ontario, Canada | 60 dart - 2014-09-15 8:29 PM
leaf springs get week and break . torsion bars they might get week but never in 50 yrs of driving and seeing these cars have i even seen one or even heard of one breaking and won't believe it till
i seen one that's been broke . wouldn't it be logical that if ride height couldn't be adjusted by torsion bar , there would be no ride height at all . if ya can't raise it how would it hold ride height of any
position . show me a broken one still in a car and i'll believe it and tell ya you're right , seems fair to me . sometimes i agree just to agree , sometimes i don't ! ------------------------------------later
I dragged home two junkyard cars that had a broken bar in each. The bits went directly in my scrap bucket. Otherwise, I could have sent you one!! I don't remember if they were USA or CDN built. I've been told that CDN bars were prone to breakage.
I actually witnessed one breaking. My uncle had a new 57 Plodge and it was parked on the street (gravel) in front of our house. He, my Dad and I were on the front porch when there was what sounded like a rifle shot and amidst of a small cloud of dust the car left front dropped!! Our first thought was that someone had shot the tire!!
Greg |
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Expert
Posts: 1352
Location: Springville, CA | Torsion bars count on the modulus of elasticity of the steel they're made of. As long as the modulus of elasticity is not exceeded the bars should never wear out! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 444
Location: North of the 49th | Hi
Torsion bars will rarely break, the big problem with the'57-'58 bars is the rear anchor , since the rear anchor is not equipped with a seal it tends to accumulate debris which will eventually prevent the bar from "floating" once the bar seizes in the rear anchor its only a matter of time before it will break. This was more prevalent in cars driven in the Northern states and Canada. Chrysler cured this in '59 with an actual torsion bar anchor seal. I've had bars where after the anchor was cleaned out and soaked with penetrating fluid it took a considerable amount of pressure to push the bar out of the anchor with a hydraulic arbor press ! For long life ensure that both ends of the bar can move and are greased with a good quality chassis lube , the '57-'58 anchors can be sealed with a strip of 1/2" x 1/2" closed cell neoprene foam rubber . This has already been mentioned but again do not switch bars side for side a right side bar is just that same goes for left. During a restoration or service DO NOT use a grinder on a torsion bar, wire wheeling is ok to remove dirt or rust. It was also mentioned to me a number of years ago by a machinist that derusting solutions should also be avoided on the bars as well as on any high strength steel fastener such as the anchor bolt. |
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Expert
Posts: 4043
Location: Connecticut | From everything I read, 57 TBs had design issues, which led to occasional breakage. The problem was solved in 58 with, I presume, longer and thicker TBs. Also, greasing the rears of the torsion bars was recommended by Chrysler to curtail breakage. They sold a kit that contained two neoprene seals with a nylon tie to prevent the grease from being thrown out of the shackle. Ron |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | 57-58 T/bars bear the same part numbers and are identical, physically.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 444
Location: North of the 49th | ronbo97 - 2014-09-16 10:56 AM
From everything I read, 57 TBs had design issues, which led to occasional breakage. The problem was solved in 58 with, I presume, longer and thicker TBs. Also, greasing the rears of the torsion bars was recommended by Chrysler to curtail breakage. They sold a kit that contained two neoprene seals with a nylon tie to prevent the grease from being thrown out of the shackle. Ron
Hi
The changes you're alluding to actually took place in 1959 but the bars were made shorter (slightly) with new anchors equipped with molded rubber seals. The alignment procedure was made easier too since Chrysler got rid of the shims and went with cams on the control arms. D500Neil is correct in that the 57-58 bars are identical. |
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Expert
Posts: 3888
Location: Northen Virginia | On my 61 Newport with the original Engine, the anchor bolt is almost in the end of the adjuster and the height of the car still low. My fiend broke one torsion bar on His 1958 Imperial LeBaron back in the 80's, he said it sounded like gun shot too. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 310
Location: Newcastle Australia | Of course torsion bars can fail:
(DSC052071184560420.jpg)
(moon+930+torsion+bars+0051261197676.jpg)
(TorsionBarExplosion1117950767.jpg)
(torsion+bars1302137780.jpg)
Attachments ---------------- DSC052071184560420.jpg (61KB - 169 downloads) moon+930+torsion+bars+0051261197676.jpg (91KB - 388 downloads) TorsionBarExplosion1117950767.jpg (38KB - 171 downloads) torsion+bars1302137780.jpg (131KB - 202 downloads)
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 444
Location: North of the 49th | I've never seen a torsion bar with splines on the ends! |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 5006
| It didn't help their reputation that's for sure. The torsion bars just breaking with the car sitting in a driveway...
My mother had one break while driving... she does not equate the cars with quality |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 310
Location: Newcastle Australia | grunau - 2014-11-05 10:00 PM
I've never seen a torsion bar with splines on the ends!
Sorry I should have mentioned that these aren't Mopar, but Volkswagen and Porsche torsion bars. I do have some photos of a 59 Dodge bar that cracked, I just can't seem to locate it for now.
Torsion bars were also used on many of the japanese like trucks/pickups and these were renown for breaking bars. |
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Expert
Posts: 1622
Location: Seville, OH | My 67 Valiant and my 70 Dart both had torsion bar failures sitting in the driveway. I was standing next to the Dart when it snapped and I just about jumped on to the roof of the house.
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