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Posts: 92
Location: Eastern Iowa, USA | Hi all,
I am reconditioning a rear end for my 60 Desoto. Changing out the complete 3:31 rear end to a 2:93 unit. I found new repop wheel cylinders for it online (Autozone).
After they arrived, I continued with brake rebuild. When I tried to install the wheel cylinder assy into the backing plate to bolt it to the adjuster plate it would not fit.
Closer observation reveled a slight dimensional thickness difference where the mounting bolts screw into the wheel cylinder. I have attached a photo of the wheel cylinders, with the OEM
on the left and repop on the right. Fortunately my neighbor is a machinist and said he can mill the new repops down to have the correct mounting thickness.
The repop brand is Duralast #33063 W32555. After looking around alot of the parts stores sell these, even Amazon. Both repop cylinders had the flaw. Looks like our Chinese
brothers who manufactured these missed an important part of the machining process. Has anyone else experienced this issue?
Thanks!
Edited by moparmoondog 2015-03-29 8:57 PM
(wh cylinder.jpg)
Attachments ---------------- wh cylinder.jpg (240KB - 190 downloads)
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Regular
Posts: 92
Location: Eastern Iowa, USA | Here is a photo of the bag with part #.
Edited by moparmoondog 2015-03-29 8:41 PM
(part #.jpg)
Attachments ---------------- part #.jpg (239KB - 193 downloads)
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 13054
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | From what I hear, all the "yellow" stuff has this level of "quality"
Edited by wizard 2015-03-30 1:12 AM
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Posts: 2289
Location: Eastern Iowa | Good call, Moondog!!
Hey, where are you located? How about a PM??
Bring that ride to Dubuque this August, MoPars on The Mississippi, Dbq Co. Fairgrounds, Aug 23rd
Hmmm....
Maybe I should dig the OEM's I just tossed in the scrap bucket out and keep 'em for cores, Huh??
Edited by finsruskw 2015-03-30 8:10 AM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 444
Location: North of the 49th | Hi What you have is the "early" wheel cylinder casting that cannot be used on 1960 and up three platform brake cars. I haven't seen the early casting rear wheel cylinder for years...this is amazing!, that they would reproduce the 1956 to '59 rear wheel cylinder casting ...Original Chrysler part number 1409973. The platform thickness for the Total contact brake changed in 1960 (became wider with the "improved" Total contact brake) so a new wheel cylinder was released , Chrysler Part number 1857051. This cylinder can be used back to '56 but the early cylinder cannot be used on cars from '60 to '61. In fact this cylinder (1857051) became the norm for use on the rear and generally supplanted all listings for the rear wheel cylinder, your cylinder does not have a machining error! The front cylinders in '60-'61 also have a wider opening to fit the wider platform sooo the '57 to early '59 wheel cylinders can't be used on a '60 to '61 car either despite the fact that they sure look the same until you measure or try to install them. I mentioned early '59 as the narrow gap cylinders were still used into the first few months of 1959,until the "new" three platform brake came on stream ...some listings show wheel cylinders fitting from '59 to '61 or '62 for Chrysler . I use 1959 as a cutoff and start in '60. Further to the rear wheel cylinder...the last time 1409973 showed up in a Chrysler change-up catalogue was 1975! The '60 to '61 cylinders are still available. In case you think I'm talking through my hat I have owned and serviced My 1960 Desoto Adventurer for over 40 years and I also own 1957 to '59 cars been there done that....
Edited by grunau 2015-03-30 9:35 AM
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Expert
Posts: 4043
Location: Connecticut | The introduction of 3-platform brakes in Jan '59 for all models also brought about the new wheel cylinders that grunau mentioned. Many complaints about poorly functioning '59 brakes come about from mixing early and late '59 brake parts. Ron
Edited by ronbo97 2015-03-30 10:52 AM
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Posts: 2289
Location: Eastern Iowa | Brand name....Duralast???
Got that right! They'll last forever sitting on someone's shelf!! |
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Posts: 92
Location: Eastern Iowa, USA | Hi grunau,
thanks for the info. So I went to Autozone online and looked for a rear wheel cylinder for a 58 Desoto and it gave me the same part # for the 58 Desoto as the 60. So it appears that at least one of the parts houses has a screwed up data base.
Can you tell me where I can get the 60 or newer type wheel cylinders?
Many thanks,
Edited by moparmoondog 2015-03-30 1:38 PM
(58 Desoto.JPG)
Attachments ---------------- 58 Desoto.JPG (43KB - 171 downloads)
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Posts: 92
Location: Eastern Iowa, USA | the Autozone part # for the 61 Desoto
(61 Desoto.JPG)
Attachments ---------------- 61 Desoto.JPG (37KB - 190 downloads)
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Location: Eastern Iowa, USA | All,
Just checked Advanced auto parts and they have the same part #'s for the 58's & 61's too like Autozone. I'm not too concerned as my machinist is gonna modify mine so they fit (and he is very good too). So there is an option if the older style is the only repop avaliable.
Best regards............ |
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Posts: 4043
Location: Connecticut | Andy Bernbaum has them: $48 each http://www.oldmoparts.com/parts-service-brakes.aspx Ron |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 444
Location: North of the 49th | Ditto on Berbaum's , but if you're going to machine them to fit you're good to go... Napa lists them too as part of their premium parts line as a 32555, hopefully they haven't made the same error as the others!
Edited by grunau 2015-03-30 8:35 PM
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Location: Connecticut | grunau - 2015-03-30 8:33 PM Ditto on Berbaum's , but if you're going to machine them to fit you're good to go... Napa lists them too as part of their premium parts line as a 32555, hopefully they haven't made the same error as the others! I check the NAPA site and yes, they made the same error as the others. If you look at the enlarged photos on the NAPA site, you'll see what I mean. Ron |
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Posts: 480
Location: The Great Northwest | When ordering from Kantner's they ask you to specify whether the brakes are three platform or not. |
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Location: Arizona | <p>I looked up the NAPA rear wheel cyl for my 60 dodge and it looks like the right part to me and looks like the photo of your 60 desoto part. Autozone ought to be able to cross reference the part number ,no need to machine new ones.</p>
Edited by jimntempe 2015-03-31 9:07 PM
(rear wheel napa for 60 dodge.jpg)
Attachments ---------------- rear wheel napa for 60 dodge.jpg (102KB - 178 downloads)
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Location: Eastern Iowa, USA | Sorry jimntempe,
you need to look closer at the Napa photo & part # it is the same as the autozone & advance auto part #s. Also look really close at my first post photo in this thread you will see the difference.
Regards,
Mopar moondog
Edited by moparmoondog 2015-04-01 4:01 PM
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8444
Location: Perth Australia |
I didnt pick up on what you were saying the difference is either
I think your saying the bolt basses are thicker?
It looks like the mounting face is further off centre line than the new one, yes?
I think I got mine from Burnbaum and they went straight on my dodge
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Location: Arizona | You're right moonddog, looking at them again and it's not a match. |
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Location: Ontario, Canada | Yeah, I always trusted Andy and never had a problem. I don't know anything about the new guys!
Greg |
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Location: Arizona | <p>Well, this is weird. I was googling around and found a DIY video someone had posted on youtube of them replacing the rear wheel cylinder on a 60 dodge. I managed to freeze frame it and read the part number off the box for the new wheel cylinder. It was the 32555 part number!! The video is short and doesn't show much in the way of bolt tightening but he didn't indicate any problem putting the 32555 back in to replace his old one. So perhaps the 32555 actually will fit??? Or maybe fits but is not quite right, seems like it would move the thing off axis a tiny bit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5uO3dQXmj8</p>
Edited by jimntempe 2015-04-02 6:13 PM
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Location: Jamaica Plain, MA | Rear brakes don't matter, anyway. Just kidding. An old school thing is that you can do is rebuild those cylinders on the axle or on your bench. I'm not sure why there is so little rebuilding of brake parts. At least if you hit a tree, you can say it's your fault. |
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Location: Eastern Iowa, USA | Cool video jimntempe,
I saw the part # on the box too. In order to get the repop wheel cylinder into the backing plate I had to loosen the brake adjuster plate bolts as done in the video. But with the original OEM wheel cylinders they would drop right in (even with the bleeder on) without unbolting the adjuster plate. Also, of note when I originally tried to install the repop wheel cylinders and tried tighten down the adjuster plate, it was getting distorted on the backing plate and axle flange so that is when I stopped and started investigating. So, I don't have an answer for why the fellow in the video was able to make everything workout. (Unless someone had swapped an earlier rear end in his car, which is possible). Glad it did work for him, so he get back to cruising!!
Thanks
Edited by moparmoondog 2015-04-03 7:34 AM
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Posts: 92
Location: Eastern Iowa, USA | JT Vincent, I would have rebuilt the original wheel cylinders, but man they were so ate out in the bore I didn't think the seals would hold!
Edited by moparmoondog 2015-04-03 7:34 AM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 444
Location: North of the 49th | Hi
If you run out of options for replacements you can always get the cylinders sleeved which is a very simple way of saving a cylinder, they can be done in brass or stainless. White post restorations used to advertise in Hemmings for years! I had to do that with my '41. To clear this cylinder thing up as per my previous explanation; Originally the 60-61 rear wheel cylinder will replace the '56 to early '59 cylinder but not vice- versa . The parts industry picked up on this and obsoleted the early cylinder as I stated that was over fourty years ago! ... the standard part number for the rear cylinders for all years concerned became 32555 and that was it...So ...whats happened it seems is some genius picked up on the early specs and recreated that cylinder for the aftermarket!
This is Ok for the '56 to early'59 bunch but it screws up the '60-61 group. I have 32555 cylinders that I bought quite a while ago (brand names are EIS and Guaranteed ) and they match the 60 to '61 specs. So it seems that Now because of this error in the aftermarket the '60 to '61 cylinders will need to be sleeved, machined to spec or NOS!
Edited by grunau 2015-04-03 8:13 AM
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Location: Arizona | Grunau, thanks for that detail. I had noticed that the cross reference for the 32555 went way back to 56 and all the way up to 62 and thought that seemed a little bit strange given all the changes over that time period in the brake and car designs. |
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Location: Eastern Iowa, USA | Hi Everyone,
well earlier this week my machinist said it was gonna be a month till he could get to my wheel cylinders machined down. I wanted to have the other rear end (which is out of a 60 Fireflite just to clarify things) in my 60 Fireflite by late April. Wanted some drive time on it before my run up to Mopars in the Park at Farmington, MN (250 miles for me) at the end of May. So I went ahead and called Any Bernbaum and ordered the "correct" 59-62 wheel cylinders for it. They arrived today and, LOW & BEHOLD they are just like my repops from Autozone which fit 56-early 59's.
As you can see below left to right OEM cylinder from the rear end, in the center cylinder from Andy Bernbaum & on the right the Autozone cylinder. So I guess I can call Andy Bernbaums, but they told me these would fit my 60 Desoto Fireflite. So I have 4 to have machined unless anyone reading this needs a pair for their 56-59 Chrysler vehicle.
Wanted to Share............
(wheel cylinders.jpg)
Attachments ---------------- wheel cylinders.jpg (237KB - 181 downloads)
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Regular
Posts: 92
Location: Eastern Iowa, USA | FYI here is my reciept & the catalog (that I received with the order) from Andy Bernbaum
with the G-203 part # & the note #12 stating for 59-62 rear right & left.........................for the correct wheel cylinders..................
Edited by moparmoondog 2015-04-04 9:57 PM
(Bernbaun G-203.jpg)
Attachments ---------------- Bernbaun G-203.jpg (236KB - 192 downloads)
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: North of the 49th | Hi
Wow its like a plague! I figured for sure Andy's would be Ok since he made a distinction in his listing with G-198 shown for '57-'58 and G-203 shown for '59 to '62...
Well, get them all machined and keep them for spares, if you're so inclined or educate Andy with the differences and return them, as I'm sure he'd like to know! or
Trade Andy for some front cylinders... Just some ideas.... |
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Posts: 4043
Location: Connecticut | Call Bernbaum's and let them know that they sent the wrong parts. Tell them that you can send them a photo to show the differences. They will either send the correct parts or refund your $$$. Just FYI...in case it hasn't been mentioned, Bernbaum's is no longer owned by Andy. He sold the business about a year ago. Ron |
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Location: North of the 49th | Hi
Hate to be a party pooper but if everybody(all suppliers) are sourcing their stuff from the same source as Autozone etc. the whole smash will be corrupt for '60-'61 and nobody in the Vintage aftermarket will be able to supply the correct cylinder! However, I did check Valley Vintage and they do show 1857051 as part of their inventory but they identify it as the same as 1409973 (their search is Chrysler part number based) now the question is what do they actually have an NOS 1857051 or have they gone with the repro...
It appears the solution will be to get the early style cylinder machined or go looking for Authentic NOS at swap meets etc. or get the original sleeved.
Thanks for the news on Andy...man, I bought stuff from him when he was just starting out....
Edited by grunau 2015-04-05 10:20 AM
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Posts: 1231
Location: York County, PA | Moparmoondog, PM me at ruchaven@gmail. I have some on my shelf that are in good shape but need rebuilt.
Catch ya later |
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Posts: 92
Location: Eastern Iowa, USA | Hi all,
Just talked with support at Andy Bernbaum and they requested a photo to see the difference in the mounting ear thickness. Just sent it off to them.
I am anxious to see what their reply is.
Have a great day all! |
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| Hi guys . I am totally confused . I am also very interested in a future clarification as I own a late 59 Dodge . I have checked all my part number books from Chrysler , Wagner , EIS , and Bendix . All these books list one rear cylinder number for cars 56 on up to about 61 or 62 . These books do show a different set of front cylinders for 56-early 59 and late 59 up to about 61,62 . The 32555 should be the correct part number but why is the ear on the specimen cylinder different from the ear on the 32555 ?The same part number info I suggest is in contradiction with another reply . Looking forward to future replies to clarify what is going on . All the best |
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Location: North of the 49th | To repeat & hopefully clear this up for you ... what came out of Autozone etc. was the "early" wheel cylinder casting that cannot be used on 1960 and up three platform brake cars. Previously, this early casting rear wheel cylinder had not been around for years! What was recently reproduced is the 1956 to early '59 rear wheel cylinder casting ...Original Chrysler part number 1409973. As I explained before the platform thickness for the Total contact brake changed in 1960 (became wider with the "improved" Total contact brake) so a new wheel cylinder was released , Chrysler Part number 1857051. This cylinder can be used back to '56 but the early cylinder cannot be used on cars from late '59 & '60 to '61. In fact this cylinder (1857051) became the norm for use on the rear and generally supplanted all listings for the rear wheel cylinder! So as per my previous explanation; Originally the 60-61 rear wheel cylinder will replace the '56 to early '59 cylinder but not vice- versa . The aftermarket parts industry picked up on this as well and obsoleted the early cylinder as I stated that was over fourty years ago! ... the standard part number for the rear cylinders for all years concerned became 32555 and that was it...So ...whats happened it seems, is the early cylinder has been recreated for the aftermarket, what should have happened is that the late cylinder should have been reproduced and I wouldn't be writing this! The front cylinders should remain specific as late '59 & '60-'61 also have a wider opening to fit the wider platform sooo the '57 to early '59 wheel cylinders can't be used on a '60 to '61 car either despite the fact that they sure look the same until you measure or try to install them. I mentioned early '59 as the narrow gap cylinders were still used into the first few months of 1959,until the "new" three platform brake came on stream ...some listings show wheel cylinders fitting from '59 to '61 or '62 for Chrysler . I personally use 1959 as a cutoff and start in '60. I have 32555 cylinders that I bought quite a while ago (brand names are EIS and Guaranteed ) and they match the late '59 & 60 to '61 specs. So it seems that Now because of this error in the aftermarket the '56 to early '59 cars are directly servicable but not so for late '59 & '60-'61 and I'm now pretty sure nobody in the Vintage aftermarket will be able to supply the correct cylinder for those model years. It appears the solution will be to get the early style cylinder machined or go looking for Authentic NOS at swap meets etc. or get the original sleeved.
I also own a 1959 Dodge ...
Edited by grunau 2015-04-08 9:01 AM
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 13054
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | Thanks' for confirming what I suspected! Never throw away any of those old rusty cylinders, they can be resleeved and used again. |
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Regular
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Location: Eastern Iowa, USA | FYI all,
Got an e-mail from Bernbaums. They are confused why the wheel cylinders will not fit. I tried to explain what I learned from the good folks on this thread to the best of my ability to them, and also gave them a link to this thread. I told them that if they could not provide me with the correct wheel cylinders with the thinner mounting ears, that I would like to return them. I will have my machinist friend make the corrections to the pair I got from Autozone.
Thanks all for the tech support on this!! |
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Location: Eastern Iowa, USA | Bernbaums replied back on Friday the 10th saying they figured out the the issue and ordered the correct wheel cylinders for the 60-62 cars. They are going to send me two of them when they come in early next week. I am anxious to see if they will be correct.
Edited by moparmoondog 2015-04-11 9:11 PM
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Location: ZH, Switzerland | grunau - 2015-03-29 2:52 PM Hi What you have is the "early" wheel cylinder casting that cannot be used on 1960 and up three platform brake cars. I haven't seen the early casting rear wheel cylinder for years...this is amazing!, that they would reproduce the 1956 to '59 rear wheel cylinder casting ...Original Chrysler part number 1409973. The platform thickness for the Total contact brake changed in 1960 (became wider with the "improved" Total contact brake) so a new wheel cylinder was released , Chrysler Part number 1857051. This cylinder can be used back to '56 but the early cylinder cannot be used on cars from '60 to '61. In fact this cylinder (1857051) became the norm for use on the rear and generally supplanted all listings for the rear wheel cylinder, your cylinder does not have a machining error! The front cylinders in '60-'61 also have a wider opening to fit the wider platform sooo the '57 to early '59 wheel cylinders can't be used on a '60 to '61 car either despite the fact that they sure look the same until you measure or try to install them. I mentioned early '59 as the narrow gap cylinders were still used into the first few months of 1959,until the "new" three platform brake came on stream ...some listings show wheel cylinders fitting from '59 to '61 or '62 for Chrysler . I use 1959 as a cutoff and start in '60. Further to the rear wheel cylinder...the last time 1409973 showed up in a Chrysler change-up catalogue was 1975! The '60 to '61 cylinders are still available. In case you think I'm talking through my hat I have owned and serviced My 1960 Desoto Adventurer for over 40 years and I also own 1957 to '59 cars been there done that.... What puzzles me very much is that back in the time of the FLK era there were two different brake cylinders for the pre 1959 FLK cars and the past 1959 cars (1409 973 for 1956 and up cars and 1857 051 for cars with 3 platform brakes). When I'm searching at google for each of these numbers I get pages (most of all - even Rockauto) who proposes the W or WC32555 as the proper replacement. Rockauto for example shows in the table that the brake cylinder WC32555 (Raybestos) will fit 1956 to 1962 Chrysler cars - except 300 (only until 1959). No brake cylinders available at Rockauto for a 1960 300 by the way. Another page addresses the W32555 for the replacemet of both old (original) parts numbers. In my opinion there is a big fault in the cross reference table when I look at the pictures of the issuer of this thread. Happy Motoring! Dieter |
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Posts: 1530
Location: ZH, Switzerland | I was thinking about the rear wheel brake cylinders again. I came to the conclusion why on earth didn't the manufacturers of the rear brake cylinders for the 1956 to 1961 era not machine down the bosses to mount the brake cylinders to the 3 platform measurement and provide an interface plate to meet the 1956 to 1959 (pre 3 platform) specification? I assume the price would rise less than one dollar for each brake cylinder with this configuration. Happy Motoring! Dieter BTW: when I look at the picture of the first thread, the original brake cylinder of his 1960 De Soto looks like a machined down version of the older brake cylinder...
Edited by di_ch_NY56 2015-04-18 3:00 PM
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 13054
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | Greed doesn't spend a dollar Dieter - far as I understand, the bolt pattern does not fit good either. Way I see it, old NOS and Aftermarket stuff is the good ones and we must save our old cores. |
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Location: Eastern Iowa, USA | Well all,
I received the supposed correct rear wheel cylinders from Andy Bernbaums today and they fit like they should. The mounting ears are machined down. They aren't quite as thin as the OEM's off of the rear end. But most importantly they fit, the adjuster plates bolt down squarely to the backing plates & the wheel cylinder piston pins line up correctly with the brake shoes when all is assembled. I am attaching 2 photos, one of the newly mounted cylinder and on the next reply the three cylinders lined up.
(Desoto correct wheel cylinder.jpg)
Attachments ---------------- Desoto correct wheel cylinder.jpg (231KB - 186 downloads)
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Regular
Posts: 92
Location: Eastern Iowa, USA | here is a photo of all 3 types of wheel cylinders
left: early style. Center: Bernbaums version of new style. Right: OEM cylinder off of 60 Desoto rear end.
As one can see the center one which I received from Bernbaums today the ears have been machined thinner then the early style (on left) but......they
are still a little thicker then the OEM's. But once again they fit and all components tighten down correctly and line up properly when assembled.
So, if anyone needs the rear wheel cylinders for their 59 1/2 to 62 car, Bernbaums can get them for you.
Great service from them. They sent me a prepaid shipping label to send the incorrect early style cylinders back to them too. Great to deal with, they will be getting more of my Forward Look business from here on out!
Best regards.
Moparmoondog
Edited by moparmoondog 2015-04-22 10:21 PM
(Desoto wheel cylinders all 3.jpg)
Attachments ---------------- Desoto wheel cylinders all 3.jpg (217KB - 197 downloads)
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