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Expert
Posts: 1316
Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels | Hi everyone,
I'm one week away from a vehicle inspection which will finally grant me a license plate for my '58 Plymouth. At last.
Everything is almost ready, except for a locking rear brake (the right one) which really bothers me.
After braking, that drums locks (partially or totally) and I can only free it by reversing the car on a few feet.
During trial runs, I came back with the drum being boiling hot, to the point I burned the tip of my finger just touching it !
I did the cam adjustement to loosen the shoes, but no change.
I took out the wheel, the drum and inspected the brake, but found nothing : the springs are in place, no oil or grease anywhere, no leaking cylinder.
As it is the drum farthest from the master cylinder, I suspect the brake fluid has some difficulties going back.
What can I do ?
What do you suggest ?
Thanks. |
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Expert
Posts: 2289
Location: Eastern Iowa | Leading edge of the shoes not chamfered enough, or not at all??
Pinched brake line?
Internal collapse of brake hose at the "Y"
Shoe arc not ground to drum diameter causing "shoe wrap up when applied?
Seems I recall that same issue w/my rt frt shoe on the F years ago
sanded the show to fit the drum fixed the issue IIRC
Try powdering the inside of the drum with the brakes released, then spin the wheel while someone applies the brakes
This should indicate any high spots on the shoes.
Good luck
Edited by finsruskw 2017-05-01 2:35 PM
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 9673
Location: So. Cal | Show us a picture of your backing plate with shoes installed. It is often a case of seemingly minor changes from what it should be. |
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Expert
Posts: 1316
Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels | finsruskw - 2017-05-01 8:34 PM
Leading edge of the shoes not chamfered enough, or not at all??
Not at all. But as the other brakes are working fine, I never thought about that.
What is the advantage of chamfering the shoe edges ?
Pinched brake line?
Nope. Checked that.
Internal collapse of brake hose at the "Y"
The brake hose looks just fine.
And if it was the case, I would probably have both rear brakes dragging or locking.
Shoe arc not ground to drum diameter causing "shoe wrap up when applied?
I would have to check that, but as drums were not ground, I doubt there's a perfect fit.
Try powdering the inside of the drum with the brakes released, then spin the wheel while someone applies the brakes
This should indicate any high spots on the shoes.
I will try to do that.
Good luck
Thank you
Powerflite - 2017-05-01 8:42 PM
Show us a picture of your backing plate with shoes installed. It is often a case of seemingly minor changes from what it should be.
I will try to make a picture of the backing plate today. |
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Expert
Posts: 1740
Location: Alaska | You did not mention the wheel cylinder. If it is not in good shape, it will cause the brake to not release. |
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Expert
Posts: 1316
Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels | 58coupe - 2017-05-02 4:02 PM
You did not mention the wheel cylinder. If it is not in good shape, it will cause the brake to not release.
They're new ones from Andy Bernbaum.
Although they have waited a few years before being assembled on the car, they were in good shape.
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Expert
Posts: 4042
Location: Connecticut | Pull the drum of the brake that's locking up. Verify that the return springs are correct and that they are hooked into the correct location. Consult the shop manual and don't 'assume'. Also, don't rule out the brake hose. It may look fine, but may be collapsed inside. When was it replaced ? Ron |
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Expert
Posts: 1316
Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels | ronbo97 - 2017-05-02 7:14 PM
Pull the drum of the brake that's locking up. Verify that the return springs are correct and that they are hooked into the correct location. Consult the shop manual and don't 'assume'. :)
Ron, if you read my first message, you'll see I did just that. First thing.
Everything was in place and OK. No leakage, no broken or misplaced return spring.
Also, don't rule out the brake hose. It may look fine, but may be collapsed inside. When was it replaced ?
It was a new one from Andy Bernbaum also.
Assembled on the car a few years ago, but saw brake fluid for the first time last year. |
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Expert
Posts: 4042
Location: Connecticut | Are your springs brand new, or did you reuse them ? Even though it may be new, maybe the wheel cyl isn't functioning properly. I would replace that. Or if you feel like it, swap the shoes, springs and wheel cyl to the other side. That will help you narrow it down. Ron |
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Expert
Posts: 1316
Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels | OK, here are some pictures I've taken today.
The brake shoes are indeed not chamfered, but everything else looks OK.
Before you ask, the gray thing is an assembly paste (a solid lubricant) put there by my former mechanic.
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Attachments ---------------- P1050020b.JPG (168KB - 195 downloads) P1050021b.JPG (146KB - 184 downloads) P1050022b.JPG (209KB - 175 downloads) P1050023b.JPG (185KB - 170 downloads) P1050024b.JPG (205KB - 183 downloads) P1050025b.JPG (168KB - 208 downloads) P1050026b.JPG (159KB - 185 downloads)
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 9673
Location: So. Cal | Something that is obviously wrong is that your springs need to be connected to the loops, not the holes in the brake shoes. Putting 5 or 6 loop springs there won't work well at all. This may be the whole problem causing what you are experiencing. Notice how the loops of your springs are contacting your shoes? This isn't giving you the proper return force and geometry when they extend. The front drum brake springs go into the holes for a different reason, but they use much shorter, stiffer springs to make it *mostly* work well.
Edited by Powerflite 2017-05-03 2:38 PM
(59springs3plf.jpg)
Attachments ---------------- 59springs3plf.jpg (95KB - 194 downloads)
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Expert
Posts: 2196
Location: Muskego, WI | Ding Ding Ding Ding! Excellent catch of such a minor detail, easily overlooked.
Edited by jboymechanic 2017-05-03 2:49 PM
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 13050
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | Far as I remember, that spring position was for to avoid squeeling brakes mostly.
The leading edge of the shoes not chamfered at all, try to chamfer the leading edge with a coarse file or rasp.
Mind that the brake shoes might contain asbest, so work slowly and use a breating mask. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 9673
Location: So. Cal | Yes, wizard, but only if you have the proper springs for that position. You need 3 loop springs if you want to put them there. Those bigger springs must be used on the loops. And putting them on the loops is the proper place for the rear shoes. |
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Expert
Posts: 1316
Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels | Thank you Nathan !
I was doubtful, but I just checked in the FSM, and you are absolutely right !
I'm going to check the other brake assemblies for conformity.
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Attachments ---------------- RearB.png (75KB - 191 downloads) FrontB.png (75KB - 186 downloads)
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1159
Location: D-70199 Heslach | Vincent, I have had the same "squeze" problem on rear shoes, here are pictures of front and rear
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Attachments ---------------- 1505098219.jpg (84KB - 175 downloads) 1701278471.jpg (71KB - 171 downloads)
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Expert
Posts: 1316
Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels | Done.
I chamfered the brakes shoes, and put the spring hooks in the correct loops, on both sides.
The pistons did indeed go deeper in the cylinder than with the previous assembly.
Did not have the time for a road test, that will be for tomorrow evening or saturday morning.
Edited by Chrome58 2017-05-04 3:07 PM
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Attachments ---------------- P1050030b.JPG (190KB - 177 downloads)
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Expert
Posts: 2633
Location: Minor Hill, TN | Do not feel bad the front brakes on my '61 locked on me when I was moving the car out of the garage to get it washed. My dad said the brake design on these cars are not very good. I plan to solve the problem by converting to front disc brakes . My other '61 has front disc brakes and another rear end with bigger brakes for better stopping. I got to save money for the conversion kit. |
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Expert
Posts: 2519
Location: central Illinois | That looks like a lot of Anti-Seize on those brake parts. Whenever I handle the stuff I end up wearing as much as I get on the parts. |
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Expert
Posts: 1316
Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels | b5rt - 2017-06-05 1:45 AM
That looks like a lot of Anti-Seize on those brake parts. Whenever I handle the stuff I end up wearing as much as I get on the parts.
Yes indeed !
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 769
Location: Oley, PA | What is a good source for new return springs? I recently had one of my front return springs on my '59 Windsor pop off it's mounting and become loose inside the drum. Not sure why this happened. Either the spring has lost its springiness or perhaps it was not installed correctly. In any case, I'd like to replace all of my return springs with new ones if I could find some at a reasonable price. |
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Expert
Posts: 1316
Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels | Andy Bernbaum. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 769
Location: Oley, PA | Chrome58 - 2017-06-09 10:32 AM
Andy Bernbaum.
I tried calling Andy Bernbaum. They say they don't have springs for a 1959 Chrysler. Any other ideas? |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 9673
Location: So. Cal | I believe James (The Adventurer) was selling some a little while ago. You might try contacting him. Otherwise, I think ebay is your only hope if you insist on new ones. Actually, you could have a batch of custom springs made too. That is an option. |
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