Original Dodge D501
Jdm214
Posted 2017-11-01 1:30 PM (#551452)
Subject: Original Dodge D501


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Is anyone interested in making an offer on a 57 Dodge D 501

It has been in several magazines.

Please email me posting for a friend
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-11-01 2:29 PM (#551456 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501



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Jdm214 - 2017-11-01 1:30 PM
Is anyone interested in making an offer on a 57 Dodge D 501
It has been in several magazines.


Photos? Links to the magazines? We need something.

There too many D501 "clones" out there to know a real one from a fake without some evidence/providence.

Just sayin'



Edited by 56D500boy 2017-11-01 5:42 PM
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mstrug
Posted 2017-11-01 5:07 PM (#551463 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Ha, One Poster wants to sell a car! HA! Nice Try...
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LostDeere59
Posted 2017-11-01 5:59 PM (#551464 - in reply to #551463)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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^^^^
Lol . . .
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Swept57
Posted 2017-11-02 10:42 AM (#551490 - in reply to #551456)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501



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56D500boy - 2017-11-01 2:29 PM

Jdm214 - 2017-11-01 1:30 PM
Is anyone interested in making an offer on a 57 Dodge D 501
It has been in several magazines.


Photos? Links to the magazines? We need something.

There too many D501 "clones" out there to know a real one from a fake without some evidence/providence.

Just sayin'

:)


There are plenty of Coronets that have 354's slapped in them, but they don't even come close to qualifying as a clone. The only one that I know of that is a pretty good clone is the sedan Louie Poole built. He got a lot of it right and actually used a real D-501 block (out of a convertible), but left it an automatic.

BTW, it is Lee Smith's D501 that he is referring too. It has been featured in a number of magazines.



Edited by Swept57 2017-11-02 10:53 AM
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-11-02 11:21 AM (#551492 - in reply to #551490)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501



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Swept57 - 2017-11-02 10:42 AM
BTW, it is Lee Smith's D501 that he is referring too. It has been featured in a number of magazines.


That being the case, the original poster ("John" at feb141977@yahoo.com) with one whole post to his name is VERY unlikely to be selling this car on behalf of the owner. Seems more likely to be a Nigerian scam. The real car would go to Mecum or Barett-Jackson.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/atomic_blondes/sets/72157621284804548/

http://racersreunion.com/john-h-strickland/gallery/73048/lee-smiths...

"Lee Smith's 1957 Dodge D501



Lee has owned this since 1959 and this is the most original of the only 4 known left in existence.100 of the factory built race cars were to be used for NASCAR or Drag Race use. Dual quad 354 Hemi w/ close ratio 3 speed and gear options 2.3 through 6.17:1 were available. "

From HAMB: https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/d501-dodge-354-hemi.8045...

"Arnie Beswick ran a 57 Dodge D501 in 57. He sold the car to Lee Smith and Lee sold the car, and eventually bought it back. Lee still owns the car, as far as I know, and it is on loan to the Don Garlits museum in Ocala, FL. The car is red and white and 3 speed on the column. Lee Smith was a successful racer and won the Winter Nationals once and raced Hemi's, one of Lee's cars was a Belvidere wagon. Lee owned the Car Shop in Moline, IL "

Lots of previous D501 talk here:

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=36883&...



Edited by 56D500boy 2017-11-02 12:43 PM
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Swept57
Posted 2017-11-02 11:47 AM (#551494 - in reply to #551492)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501



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I know all about Lee's car. I have been to his shop several times. He related the full history of it to me. He also offered to sell it to me a couple of years ago. Lee is not an auction type guy, although it will likely end up making the auction circuit after it sells.

Lee's car IS one of the most original. I have been studying 501s for years and I am aware of 8 still in existence, 5 sedans and 3 convertibles. The picture of the emblem you posted is one I took of the one from my sedan.

Edited by Swept57 2017-11-02 11:52 AM
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-11-02 12:10 PM (#551498 - in reply to #551494)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501



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Swept57 - 2017-11-02 11:47 AM
I know all about Lee's car. I have been to his shop several times. He related the full history of it to me. He also offered to sell it to me a couple of years ago. Lee is not an auction type guy, although it will likely end up making the auction circuit after it sells.


So this John is legit and he is acting as Lee's selling agent?

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Swept57
Posted 2017-11-02 12:19 PM (#551499 - in reply to #551498)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501



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I think John is a friend of Lee's making inquiries on Lee's behalf. I probably wouldn't characterize him as his selling agent. Lee doesn't care too much about computers!
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ABloch
Posted 2017-11-02 2:25 PM (#551510 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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So what kind of money are we talking about David? Gotta be pushing six figures I assume?
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Swept57
Posted 2017-11-02 3:04 PM (#551513 - in reply to #551510)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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ABloch - 2017-11-02 2:25 PM

So what kind of money are we talking about David? Gotta be pushing six figures I assume?


I am guessing so. At the time Lee offered it to me, he had been recently offered $75K. He wasn't quite ready to sell then, and I had already committed to mine so we didn't pursue further negotiations. Difficult to say with such a unique piece!
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-11-02 5:16 PM (#551519 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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When you start calling a car a "piece" you know it is no longer a car you can enjoy. Just sell it to a museum. Us little guys would ruin it by driving it.
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-11-02 5:25 PM (#551521 - in reply to #551519)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Powerflite - 2017-11-02 5:16 PM
When you start calling a car a "piece" you know it is no longer a car you can enjoy. Just sell it to a museum. Us little guys would ruin it by driving it.


LOL
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Swept57
Posted 2017-11-02 5:39 PM (#551522 - in reply to #551519)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Powerflite - 2017-11-02 5:16 PM

When you start calling a car a "piece" you know it is no longer a car you can enjoy. Just sell it to a museum. Us little guys would ruin it by driving it.


I agree. It will likely end up a trailer queen or maybe in a museum. I learned about the D-501 when Lee had his on loan to Don Garlit's museum of drag racing.
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2017-11-03 1:32 PM (#551545 - in reply to #551522)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Swept57 - 2017-11-03 2:39 PM

Powerflite - 2017-11-02 5:16 PM

When you start calling a car a "piece" you know it is no longer a car you can enjoy. Just sell it to a museum. Us little guys would ruin it by driving it.


I agree. It will likely end up a trailer queen or maybe in a museum. I learned about the D-501 when Lee had his on loan to Don Garlit's museum of drag racing.


==================================

When I lived in Seattle, I had a number of friends who built drag cars
that they used as drivers. They had a singular mindset that if it is a car,
it had to be built balls-out to go fast. They were constantly trying to get
me to build my cars the same way. Can you imagine trying to make a
58 Fireflite convertible competitively fast ? What a joke.

I had the chance to drive some of their cars, and oh yeah ... they would
scoot right along. But they were about as comfortable to drive as a phone
booth, crossed with some gym equipment. Any fun of going fast was quickly
lost in the drudge of running errands, parking lots, and around town traffic.

I suspect a car like this D501 would be a similar amount of work and
drudge to drive as a regular car. Going fast loses its excitement quickly,
and then all you are left with is a strenuous driving experience in a car
you are worried about breaking or wearing out. A wonderful and unique
piece of period history, but probably not the most practical or fun car from
the period to drive.
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tberd62
Posted 2017-11-03 7:58 PM (#551564 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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I agree Doc. I restored a 1957 Mercury M355, the equivalent of a Dodge D501. It was not fun to drive and soon sold it off even though it was a rare as hens teeth. I'll keep my 57 Fireflight 4Dr Ht and cruise in that all day long.
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2018-10-24 9:09 PM (#572311 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Just took deliver of this today
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-10-24 9:13 PM (#572312 - in reply to #572311)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Mike McCandless - 2018-10-24 9:09 PM

Just took deliver of this today


Should have known. Congratulations.

Naturally, we need lots and lots of cool photos to drool over.

Please

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Powerflite
Posted 2018-10-24 9:21 PM (#572313 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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I agree. I would like some motor shots & suspension shots. Should probably start a new thread though. Congratulations! That's a great addition.
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2018-10-24 9:48 PM (#572314 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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I won't have it out to the house for awhile, but when I do, plenty of shots will follow
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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-10-24 10:46 PM (#572316 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Mike, Tuck the D501 in Bed for the night! If it were me I would sleep in it tonight so I could wake up in it and say 'It wasn't a Dream!" Great Score!! It is in good hands for sure!

John
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Swept57
Posted 2018-10-25 7:31 AM (#572338 - in reply to #572311)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Mike McCandless - 2018-10-24 9:09 PM

Just took deliver of this today :)


Mike, I was hoping you would pick Lee's 501 up for your museum. People will get a chance to see it again! Glad it all worked out.
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Hyfire
Posted 2018-10-25 6:35 PM (#572359 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Great car and it sounds like it's got a great home.

Should be some neat things in the IBM card. I know this car had some touch-ups in the engine compartment, but was mostly original. If I could be so brazen to make a suggestion... I'd be very careful with cleaning and detailing. Many collectors want perfect, and "authentic" isn't perfect. You don't want to do anything you can't undo. I hope that doesn't come across as arrogant.

Awesome to see the change in focus Mike. Perfectly restored cars are wonderful, but they're glorified versions of what they rarely were. Car's like this are truly special in an entirely different way. I think original (or mostly original) cars carry so much more weight. A collection of both styles of cars really is ideal.

Congrats! Good to see!

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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-22 4:27 PM (#573993 - in reply to #551490)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501


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Swept57 - 2017-11-02 9:42 AM
56D500boy - 2017-11-01 2:29 PM
Jdm214 - 2017-11-01 1:30 PM Is anyone interested in making an offer on a 57 Dodge D 501 It has been in several magazines.
Photos? Links to the magazines? We need something. There too many D501 "clones" out there to know a real one from a fake without some evidence/Provenance. Just sayin' :)
There are plenty of Coronets that have 354's slapped in them, but they don't even come close to qualifying as a clone. The only one that I know of that is a pretty good clone is the sedan Louie Poole built. He got a lot of it right and actually used a real D-501 block (out of a convertible), but left it an automatic. BTW, it is Lee Smith's D501 that he is referring too. It has been featured in a number of magazines.

I was re-reading the thread on the D501 that Mike M. bought. And was wondering about the 3 convertibles that were made with the D501 package. If a tribute (clone) car was made with a D501 engine taken from a legit car, what happened to this donor convertible? Was it crushed? Did it survive with another motor? And the other two D501 convertibles of the 3 that were produced are they known to survive also?  Just wondering if others knew about the whereabouts of them. Swept57 stated that he knew of 8 surviving D501's and three of them were the converts. Albeit one of the converts does not have its original engine anymore. who has these converts and is there any pictures of them? With the X frame underneath them, they would be a bit stouter than the ladder frame sedans and HTs. Surprised that all of the D501's were not built with the convertible frames. 

I sure would like to see one of the convertibles versions if it is in a public museum or in private hands at some point. Naturally, I would love to own one of the D501 convertibles but might have to do a Tribute version on my CRL convert to get the same effect.

 

John



Edited by 1959 Belvedere Conv 2018-11-22 5:11 PM
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2018-11-22 7:34 PM (#573998 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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There was a 501 vert that sold about a year ago, went for 70k
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2018-11-22 7:36 PM (#573999 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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https://bid.aumannauctions.com/m/lot-details/index/catalog/15600/lot...
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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-22 8:52 PM (#574000 - in reply to #573998)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Mike McCandless - 2018-11-22 6:34 PM There was a 501 vert that sold about a year ago, went for 70k

Thanks, Mike! I happen to have this same picture in my Library of 57 Dodges (with fender skirts) I keep on my computer and never knew it was a D501. The 2017 Price is reasonable for one of 3 car D501 convertible made. Probably near if not over $100K now if that car would go up for sale again. Good investment I would say. The provenance of your D501 car speaks for itself! Can't wait to visit our museum someday to see it in person and your other cars too!

I have to be ready when another one pops up for sale, better warn the wife!! But until then I will build a tribute car that I can drive since I already have a 56 300B 354 Hemi Block and heads I will build up this winter. Now I have to find a 57 Imperial parts car for the axle, Suspension, and wheel (5  on 5" lug pattern) uniqueness for a D501 to be at least close to what your original one is. But I will keep mine an Automatic transmission version as my shifting days are behind me I think...  

John

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56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-22 9:16 PM (#574002 - in reply to #573999)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Not wanting to open up another round of discussion *BUT* the engine in that 57 Dodge convertible *IS* sporting the 1733 477 2 x 4bbl intake manifold associated with the 57-58 Chrysler letter cars, i.e. 354 or 392, further implying D501, as discussed in this thread:

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=67664&...







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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-11-22 10:38 PM (#574004 - in reply to #574000)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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1959 Belvedere Conv - 2018-11-22 8:52 PM

Mike McCandless - 2018-11-22 6:34 PM There was a 501 vert that sold about a year ago, went for 70k

Thanks, Mike! I happen to have this same picture in my Library of 57 Dodges (with fender skirts) I keep on my computer and never knew it was a D501. The 2017 Price is reasonable for one of 3 car D501 convertible made. Probably near if not over $100K now if that car would go up for sale again. Good investment I would say. The provenance of your D501 car speaks for itself! Can't wait to visit our museum someday to see it in person and your other cars too!

I have to be ready when another one pops up for sale, better warn the wife!! But until then I will build a tribute car that I can drive since I already have a 56 300B 354 Hemi Block and heads I will build up this winter. Now I have to find a 57 Imperial parts car for the axle, Suspension, and wheel (5  on 5" lug pattern) uniqueness for a D501 to be at least close to what your original one is. But I will keep mine an Automatic transmission version as my shifting days are behind me I think...  

John



An Imperial will yield a bunch of parts but the axle won't fit a Dodge. You better talk to Wayne.

Greg
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2018-11-23 7:02 AM (#574013 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1957-DODGE-CORO...

This one comes up in January. It was offered to me months ago at an outrageous price. I was shocked to see it in a no reserve auction, given the previous asking price. When I see things like that, I tend to believe there will be a shill bidder in the crowd. I think I have a good idea of what this is worth and it's not anywhere near the price they were asking, but you never know. These cars are really unique, but I'm not sure they're desirable unless they have specific racing history.
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Swept57
Posted 2018-11-23 8:03 AM (#574015 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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As I recall, that convertible had an amateur restoration done. The auction description is wrong as there were 23 convertibles built with three know to remain, and possibly a 4th.
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-23 12:59 PM (#574022 - in reply to #574013)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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I am just going to drop these two pages from the 1957 AMA Dodge D500 questionnaire (which included the D-501 as a separate entity) and then run away and hide



Edited by 56D500boy 2018-11-23 1:01 PM




(AMA57D500QuestionnairePart1_Page1.jpg)



(AMA57D500QuestionnairePart1_Page2.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments AMA57D500QuestionnairePart1_Page1.jpg (166KB - 215 downloads)
Attachments AMA57D500QuestionnairePart1_Page2.jpg (133KB - 200 downloads)
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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-23 1:38 PM (#574024 - in reply to #574015)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Swept57 - 2018-11-23 7:03 AM As I recall, that convertible had an amateur restoration done. The auction description is wrong as there were 23 convertibles built with three know to remain, and possibly a 4th.

Excellent! Thanks, David! 23 made but only 3 known at this date that has survived. Much better than only 3 were made. Good information!

 

John

 

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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-23 3:30 PM (#574029 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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<p>The service manual for the 57 Imperial lists the rear tread width of their axle to be 60.35" and the above AMA questionnaire says the D501 rear tread width to be 61.7'...Pretty darn close to just use a 57 imperial 8 3/4" axle set up width especially for a tribute car. Probably would have to move the spring perches inward or use a relocation perch set up. But do-able... I will check with Wayne regardless of the use of the Imperial parts on the 57 Dodge and what he would suggest to do.</p><p>All good information! Chrysler may have used special axle width tubes with the Imperial thickness of the half shafts with 5 x 5" Lug spacing drums for the D501 builds John.</p>

Edited by 1959 Belvedere Conv 2018-11-23 5:59 PM
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Swept57
Posted 2018-11-23 3:42 PM (#574030 - in reply to #574022)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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56D500boy - 2018-11-23 12:59 PM


I am just going to drop these two pages from the 1957 AMA Dodge D500 questionnaire (which included the D-501 as a separate entity) and then run away and hide



Hide? Those pages have been posted several times. Nothing controversial.
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-11-23 10:46 PM (#574043 - in reply to #574029)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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1959 Belvedere Conv - 2018-11-23 3:30 PM

The service manual for the 57 Imperial lists the rear tread width of their axle to be 60.35" and the above AMA questionnaire says the D501 rear tread width to be 61.7'...Pretty darn close to just use a 57 imperial 8 3/4" axle set up width especially for a tribute car. Probably would have to move the spring perches inward or use a relocation perch set up. But do-able... I will check with Wayne regardless of the use of the Imperial parts on the 57 Dodge and what he would suggest to do.

All good information! Chrysler may have used special axle width tubes with the Imperial thickness of the half shafts with 5 x 5" Lug spacing drums for the D501 builds John.



John,
Years ago, Neil and I were trying to find an available/possible existing rear axle parts source for Dodge to reach into the parts bins to build these few, 100 or so 501s. I mentioned this to Wayne at that time.

As I recall:

He had done research to determine the same thing for the Road America 300Cs and I believe it led him to 56 Chrysler Town and Country wagons. Anyway, check with him.
Greg
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-11-23 11:41 PM (#574046 - in reply to #574043)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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It may be a good spot to outline the differences/similarities between the 57 Imperial versus generic Chrysler and D501 rear axle assemblies. As I remember:

All use the 5 X 9/16" studs on a 5" bolt circle hubs and wheels but that is where the interchange ends.
The Imp axle shafts are a larger diameter than Chry so they and drums and brake backing plates don't interchange. The Imp brake backing plates also have a larger mounting bolt pattern so there is another difference.

Greg
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-11-23 11:52 PM (#574047 - in reply to #574046)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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I should have said ------ versus Road America Chrysler ----- not generic Chrysler.
Greg
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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-23 11:59 PM (#574049 - in reply to #574043)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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LD3 Greg - 2018-11-23 9:46 PM
1959 Belvedere Conv - 2018-11-23 3:30 PM

The service manual for the 57 Imperial lists the rear tread width of their axle to be 60.35" and the above AMA questionnaire says the D501 rear tread width to be 61.7'...Pretty darn close to just use a 57 imperial 8 3/4" axle set up width especially for a tribute car. Probably would have to move the spring perches inward or use a relocation perch set up. But do-able... I will check with Wayne regardless of the use of the Imperial parts on the 57 Dodge and what he would suggest to do.

All good information! Chrysler may have used special axle width tubes with the Imperial thickness of the half shafts with 5 x 5" Lug spacing drums for the D501 builds John.

John, Years ago, Neil and I were trying to find an available/possible existing rear axle parts source for Dodge to reach into the parts bins to build these few, 100 or so 501s. I mentioned this to Wayne at that time. As I recall: He had done research to determine the same thing for the Road America 300Cs and I believe it led him to 56 Chrysler Town and Country wagons. Anyway, check with him. Greg

Will do Greg! I did not even think about other years of axles to use. I don't think I have a 56 Chrysler Manual but I will just inquire with Wayne on what he found out. No need for me to do what has already been done before me in answering questions.

John

 

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Powerflite
Posted 2018-11-24 9:43 AM (#574060 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Greg, are you saying that the '56 Chrysler T&C wagons use the Imperial bolt pattern?
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-11-24 10:49 AM (#574062 - in reply to #574060)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Powerflite - 2018-11-24 9:43 AM

Greg, are you saying that the '56 Chrysler T&C wagons use the Imperial bolt pattern?


Nathan, I remember discussion about it. That's all.

Greg
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-24 11:27 AM (#574066 - in reply to #574060)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Powerflite - 2018-11-24 9:43 AM
Greg, are you saying that the '56 Chrysler T&C wagons use the Imperial bolt pattern?


A 1955 Imperial was a C69. A 1955 Crown Imperial was a C70.

A 1956 Imperial was a C73. A 1956 Crown Imperial was a C70 (same as 55).

Based on info at this website:

http://www.carnut.com/specs/gen/chry50.html

Only the C70 (Crown Imperial) had the 5 x 5.5 bolt pattern

I don't see any crosses to exactly C70 Crown Imperials and Chrysler Estate Wagons, either in the wheels or rear brake drum and hubs.





(55-58WheelsAndTireSizes.jpg)



(55-58RearHubAndDrumPNs.jpg)



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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-11-24 12:29 PM (#574069 - in reply to #574066)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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As I read it, 15X6.50 wheels, 1533 281 fit C70 as well as Est Wgns. Of course the rear brake drums won't interchange.

Greg
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-24 2:11 PM (#574071 - in reply to #574069)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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LD3 Greg - 2018-11-24 12:29 PM

As I read it, 15X6.50 wheels, 1533 281 fit C70 as well as Est Wgns. Of course the rear brake drums won't interchange.

Greg


Agree that regarding the 15 x 6.50 wire wheels, it seems to say that. However, *IF* we agree that:

A 1955 Imperial was a C69, a 1955 Crown Imperial was a C70 and a 1956 Imperial was a C73 and A 1956 Crown Imperial was a C70 (same as 55) and *ONLY* the C70 Crown Imperials had the 5 x 5.5 wheels and hubs

*THEN* we need to look at the front and rear hubs that hold the studs. On that basis, this rear hub info seems to say that the 56 Estate wagons did NOT (normally) have the 5 x 5.5. hubs because they are not included in the C70 hub 1633 058 PN listing but are included in a non-C70 1633 049 listing. That is what I see. I might be blind.

That info doesn't make it right. Just what was printed in a part manual at some point and somebody *ELSE* will have to come up with better, more compelling, evidence if it is wrong.



What the normal 56 Imperial Crown Wheels looked like (more info under the photo):





Edited by 56D500boy 2018-11-24 3:26 PM




(55-58RearHubPNs.jpg)



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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-24 3:34 PM (#574075 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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<p>Having worked for Chrysler in the 70's and 80's, I think they would have sent a truck down from Dodge Main (Hamtramck) cross town to the Jefferson Ave. Assembly where the Imperials were built and grabbed the needed axles for the D501. As these were late in the 57 model year builds there would have not been any 56 axles laying around to grab up for this build unless they were the same width as current needs for a particular model at that plant.</p><p>I worked in my College years 1975-78 in the Stamping, Mound Road Engine and Assembly (Lynch Road, Plymouth assembly) there was always inter-plant deliveries made to keep production moving forward. I made stamping deliveries my self to different plants as a "Must Have" needs. After graduation, I became a District Sales Mgr. For Chrysler out here in Colorado.  Possibly this might have happened. Just my two cents worth.</p>

Edited by 1959 Belvedere Conv 2018-11-24 3:43 PM
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-11-24 4:05 PM (#574076 - in reply to #574075)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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1959 Belvedere Conv - 2018-11-24 3:34 PM

Having worked for Chrysler in the 70's and 80's, I think they would have sent a truck down from Dodge Main (Hamtramck) cross town to the Jefferson Ave. Assembly where the Imperials were built and grabbed the needed axles for the D501. As these were late in the 57 model year builds there would have not been any 56 axles laying around to grab up for this build unless they were the same width as current needs for a particular model at that plant.

I worked in my College years 1975-78 in the Stamping, Mound Road Engine and Assembly (Lynch Road, Plymouth assembly) there was always inter-plant deliveries made to keep production moving forward. I made stamping deliveries my self to different plants as a "Must Have" needs. After graduation, I became a District Sales Mgr. For Chrysler out here in Colorado.  Possibly this might have happened. Just my two cents worth.



I don't doubt what you are saying but it is really easy to tell the difference between Chrysler and Imperial rear brake drums. The size of the axle taper is visible. Swept57, David, and other owners could tell us.

Greg
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-24 7:55 PM (#574080 - in reply to #574071)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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And it continues:

"Original 1950 to 1956 Imperial wheel rim. This is a 15 inch wheel. This has the larger 5 1/2 inch bolt circle which was used on the Imperial and the Chrysler station wagons. Measure yours before bidding. If you have a regular Chrysler car and need a wheel with a 4 1/2 inch bolt circle, I can make a listing for you. This rim is in good condition with light surface rust that will clean up well. This is dirty from sitting in storage, but is a good straight wheel free of any defects. I am pretty picky about which wheels are listed and which don't make the cut. "

https://picclick.com/1950-51-52-53-54-1955-1956-Chrysler-27250162892...

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56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-26 12:07 AM (#574122 - in reply to #574080)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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I see that either the forum isn't wanting to consistently link out to other photo sources or those sources have died. In any event, here are the photos of the C70 Crown Imperial 5 x 5.5" wheel that I was trying to reference yesterday:



Edited by 56D500boy 2018-11-26 12:11 AM




(1956-ChryslerImperialCrownShowingThe5x5point5wheels.jpg)



(1950-51-52-53-54-1955-1956-ChryslerImperial5x5point5Wheel.jpg)



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Attachments 1956-ChryslerImperialCrownShowingThe5x5point5wheels.jpg (188KB - 202 downloads)
Attachments 1950-51-52-53-54-1955-1956-ChryslerImperial5x5point5Wheel.jpg (224KB - 205 downloads)
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-11-26 12:14 AM (#574123 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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All links will eventually die; some sooner than later. It's always best to upload the pictures so they will be kept with the forum.
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-26 12:21 AM (#574125 - in reply to #574122)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Apologies to those who have been following this thread and specifically to those trying unsuccessfully to convince me that the 56 Chrysler Estate wagons had the 5 x 5.5" wheels that were used on the C70 55 and 56 Crown Imperials. I was basing my reluctance to believe that on the fact that the C70 rear hubs with the 5 x 5.5" studs were unique and not shared with any other Chryslers, e.g. the estate wagons.

VERRRYY SLOWWWLLY I have come to realize that the reason for that is the C70 Rear Axels were different, e.g. longer, than anything else. I have now read the the taper at the end of the C70 Crown Imperial axle shaft was also different than the other Chryslers. I see the unique part number for the C70 rear axels and, therefore, I understand why the C70 rear hub would unique as well. That does NOT mean that the wheels were unique to the C70 Crown Imperials.

Sorry that it took me so long to get there.








(RearAxleAssemblyDiagram_2.jpg)



(RearAxlePNs_2.jpg)



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StillOutThere
Posted 2018-11-26 10:22 AM (#574142 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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I'm not about to go reading back through this whole thread but it appears there is a question about how the '57 cars with the "Imperial suspension" option would have been able to run 5 on 5.5" big Imperial brakes. This would apply to Kiekhaefer's "Road America competition model" 300Cs (I have the only survivor) and also the '57 Dodge D501 race car chassis. In the front, not difficult. Install Imperial spindles which give you heavier larger diameter spindles tanking the larger Imperial wheel bearings for the Imperial hubs of the Imperial drums. For the rear, the Imperial axle housing could not be used because of the trailing arms and links employed in the Imperial. Kiekhaefer's chief engineer, Charlie Strang was asked to create adapters at the Mopar (Chrysler or Dodge) axle ends which would allow the larger Imperial wheel (axle) out bearings to be used. The bolt pattern of the backing plates are the same across the lines. Since even the '57 Imperial had gone to 14" wheels, the Road America cars came off the assembly line wearing 14" Imperial rims and tires and 300C wheelcovers (have photo of my car's arrival at ECK's Plant 6 ("the race car plant") having been driven to Oshkosh by a Mercury Outboards employee (ECK considered this "break in" mileage plus he did not want the wheel bearings statically pounded by train or truck transport). The next existing picture of my car shows it with 15" wheels and '55-56 wheelcovers. Considering the bolt pattern, there had to be '55-56 Imperial wheels underneath the covers.
I currently own the restored Road America race car which never had the opportunity to take to the track as NASCAR canelled its '56-57 road race series prior to the Elkhart Lake, WI scheduled event. The car was put back into street trim and driven by Charlie Strang for his "executive" use as ECK's right hand man and confidant for the next couple of years and then traded in. Strang later became Commissioner of NASCAR. A lesser engineering employee of Mercury saw the car on the day of trade in, knew it well, immediately purchased it and very shortly moved to a new position with Clayton Dynamometers in California where I decades later purchased the car and found that engineer's widow to get the story and a few photos.
Also I have a '56 Crown Imperial with custom work by Derham. Yes, both '55 and '56 Crown models are C70s with minor trim changes and the 354 Hemi added to create the '56s. There is the familiar photo of Kiekhaefer with a '56 300B race car and his personal Crown production limo and the numerous trophies his race team had won in front of his home.



(May6_17.jpg)



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56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-26 10:42 AM (#574148 - in reply to #574142)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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StillOutThere: Is this your car?

"Carl Kiekhaefer's Chrysler for the 1956 Nascar Road America race



Carl Kiekhaefer having some Chrysler and Dodge race cars at Road America, Elkhart Lake, WI, during 1956 with plans for 1957? Finishing restoration, I own his '57 Chrysler 300C "Road America competition model" as he names it in correspondence. Multiple special order features to the car include 390HP motor, built on convertible X-braced frame, etc. Attached shows it the day it arrived at Mercury Outboards Plant 6, "the race car plant" in Oshkosh, driven from Detroit by a CK employee.



Mercury archives photo showing the black Rd Am comp car in early development with his own header design. The front frame cross member was boxed at the factory.

Kiekhaefer did a fair amount of testing of his NASCAR road race cars at Rd. America judging by numerous photos. Going into '57 and always fighting with Bill France, he may have originally intended to "stay at home" from the ovals and just do the Elkhart Lake road race scheduled for June.

He bought an early 300C for testing, then two more special orders including this one. The factory 390HP pkg included manual trans but the two RA Comp models were Torqueflites.

"Imperial suspension" was part of the package incorporating larger hubs, bearings, 5 on 5.5 Imperial wheels, special camshaft, high output exhaust manifolds, blocked heat chamber dual quad intake on the 392 cube Hemi.

The Road America race was cancelled with the cancellation of the NASCAR Road Racing series. "


REFERENCE: http://justacarguy.blogspot.com/2014_12_28_archive.html
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StillOutThere
Posted 2018-11-26 11:11 AM (#574149 - in reply to #574148)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Yes, in the arrival photo.  Engine close up is of the companion car Rd Am, the next consecutive VIN.   Mine special order Charcoal Gray,  other Black.

 

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56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-26 11:46 AM (#574154 - in reply to #574149)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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StillOutThere - 2018-11-26 11:11 AM

Yes, in the arrival photo.  Engine close up is of the companion car Rd Am, the next consecutive VIN.   Mine special order Charcoal Gray,  other Black.

 



Thanks. As discussed here:

"Celebrating the 40th anniversary of the program will be one focus of this year’s McPherson College C.A.R.S. Club’s 18th annual car and motorcycle show, organized by the restoration program students. And one of the cars slated to appear at the show will be the 1957 Chrysler 300C that a number of MacPherson graduates have chipped in to restore.

One of four that Kiekhaefer bought to race that year, the 300C hardtop is one of two he had modified with stiffer convertible frames, Imperial suspensions, boxed front crossmembers, and high-output exhaust manifolds and special camshafts for the 390-hp, 392-cu.in. Hemi V-8s. Kiekhaefer reportedly intended to take the two to Elkhart Lake to compete in the fledgling NASCAR road racing series, started the year before, but Bill France – with whom Kiekhaefer frequently butted heads at the time – canceled not just the race but the entire series.

The two cars then reportedly became personal street cars for Kiekhaefer and his chief engineer, Charles Strang. The charcoal example that Strang drove eventually got traded in on a Cadillac, but another Kiekhaefer employee, Frank Hartman, spotted it on the Cadillac dealer’s lot and took it with him to California in 1960. Wayne Graefen spotted it in Anaheim in 1991, complete with the documented Kiekhaefer alterations, and has since trusted its restoration to Tim Bowers, owner of Stellar Automotive Restoration in Windom, Kansas, and a former instructor at McPherson."


REF: https://chromjuwelen.com/de/network/228-blog-hemmings/204908-mcphers...



Edited by 56D500boy 2018-11-26 11:54 AM
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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-26 11:41 PM (#574188 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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<p>Thank you, Wayne! You answered a lot of my questions and created some more too! The upside down 4 bolt exhaust manifolds on the 392 Hemi look on the above 300C like the ones I have on a 57 Truck 354 I have in my Garage ( just the Manifold part not the upside-down part). This truck Hemi of mine also has the special D501 valve covers seen on the 501 builds with the larger space nearer the intake manifold mentioned earlier. I think I better check the engine number on it tomorrow. (the truck was an airport fuel refilling truck in Georgia till 7 years ago.) But are the manifolds they the std. truck ones or special build competition ones just using the same 4 bolt system? Also looks like they flipped sides on them besides mounting them upside down. I will take a picture of them (Truck 4 bolt manifolds) on the Hemi Tuesday to post here. I am learning a lot guys, Thanks! Wayne beyond neat car of yours! John</p>

Edited by 1959 Belvedere Conv 2018-11-27 12:04 AM
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-11-26 11:52 PM (#574189 - in reply to #574149)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Hi Wayne,
I'm the one who dragged you into this topic. Sorry about that!! I didn't know whether to post this or email you privately, anyway here is the question.

It has to be close to 25 years ago but you and I exchanged info as to how Chrysler/Dodge in 57 used Imp 5X5.5 bolt X 9/16" stud pattern wheels and rear drums to fit the lesser diameter axle shafts of Chrysler/Dodge. Either rightly or wrongly, as I recall, you suggested that 56 Chrysler Estate Wagons were fitted with the required rear drums. So, for the limited 57 production 501s, the parts had already been machined previously.

Do I recall correctly?
Greg
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Swept57
Posted 2018-11-27 6:12 AM (#574196 - in reply to #574188)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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1959 Belvedere Conv - 2018-11-26 11:41 PM

Thank you, Wayne! You answered a lot of my questions and created some more too! The upside down 4 bolt exhaust manifolds on the 392 Hemi look on the above 300C like the ones I have on a 57 Truck 354 I have in my Garage ( just the Manifold part not the upside-down part). This truck Hemi of mine also has the special D501 valve covers seen on the 501 builds with the larger space nearer the intake manifold mentioned earlier. I think I better check the engine number on it tomorrow. (the truck was an airport fuel refilling truck in Georgia till 7 years ago.) But are the manifolds they the std. truck ones or special build competition ones just using the same 4 bolt system? Also looks like they flipped sides on them besides mounting them upside down. I will take a picture of them (Truck 4 bolt manifolds) on the Hemi Tuesday to post here. I am learning a lot guys, Thanks! Wayne beyond neat car of yours! John



The D-501 used the Dodge truck D900 valve covers with the coil bracket and bumps for mechanical rockers.
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Swept57
Posted 2018-11-27 6:16 AM (#574197 - in reply to #574076)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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LD3 Greg - 2018-11-24 4:05 PM

I don't doubt what you are saying but it is really easy to tell the difference between Chrysler and Imperial rear brake drums. The size of the axle taper is visible. Swept57, David, and other owners could tell us.

Greg


I'll try to get measurements off my rear axle/housing. It will be a week or so though that I will have time.

Also, the D-501 wheels are wider than the standard 56 Imperial wheels.
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StillOutThere
Posted 2018-11-27 8:20 AM (#574202 - in reply to #574189)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Location: Under the X in Texas

Howdy Greg,  Yes, I recall our exchanges on this and many other topics those many years ago.  The only answer I had at that time was "estate" brakes.   It was within the last ten years, I think, that researcher Karl Pippart III came across the explanation of the "Strang Conversion" if I may label it with that moniker, to make this happen.  With that the light bulb came on brilliantly and the question was answered.  

 

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StillOutThere
Posted 2018-11-27 8:30 AM (#574203 - in reply to #574188)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Location: Under the X in Texas

John,  the exhaust manifold shown in the photo of the open front end are unique, and as far as has been determined, were one-off castings.  Meaning one pair and experimental at that point.   They are shown on the black, companion car to mine.  Obviously they required cutting up the inner wheel wells and rerouting everything on the left side well.   In later years Fred Kiekhaefer, ECK's son, stated he thought he had seen the pair stored in his personal Quonset hut at Mercury Performance division, however when the building was emptied, they were not discovered.

These are not the truck 4-bolt manifolds of '55 and '56 which were used on the race cars.  I presume that is what you have.  Neither are they the limited production high performance 4-bolts which were a new casting to clear the new torsion suspension of the '57 cars.   What they are, as stated, is one-offs and internally they have half inch larger passages!

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56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-27 10:04 AM (#574206 - in reply to #574196)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Swept57 - 2018-11-27 6:12 AM

The D-501 used the Dodge truck D900 valve covers with the coil bracket and bumps for mechanical rockers.


Far be it for me to even remotely contradict you, *BUT*, that does no jive with images of D501 engines that I have seen:





REFERENCE: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=70160&...
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StillOutThere
Posted 2018-11-27 10:12 AM (#574209 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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<p>What doesn't "jive"?</p><p> </p>

Edited by StillOutThere 2018-11-27 10:16 AM
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-27 11:28 AM (#574212 - in reply to #574209)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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StillOutThere - 2018-11-27 10:12 AM

What doesn't "jive"?


Mechanical (solid) lifter adjustment bumps or lack or therein.

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Swept57
Posted 2018-11-27 11:47 AM (#574213 - in reply to #574212)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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56D500boy - 2018-11-27 11:28 AM

StillOutThere - 2018-11-27 10:12 AM

What doesn't "jive"?


Mechanical (solid) lifter adjustment bumps or lack or therein.

:)


The Chrysler (and Chrysler-based Dodge truck engine) bumps are completely hidden under wire loom covers.

Edited by Swept57 2018-11-27 11:48 AM
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-27 1:25 PM (#574216 - in reply to #574213)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Swept57 - 2018-11-27 11:47 AM

The Chrysler (and Chrysler-based Dodge truck engine) bumps are completely hidden under wire loom covers.


Ah so! I did NOT know that. Live and learn. Too soon old. Too late smart.

Any photos of said covers?

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Swept57
Posted 2018-11-27 1:40 PM (#574217 - in reply to #574216)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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56D500boy - 2018-11-27 1:25 PM

Swept57 - 2018-11-27 11:47 AM

The Chrysler (and Chrysler-based Dodge truck engine) bumps are completely hidden under wire loom covers.


Ah so! I did NOT know that. Live and learn. Too soon old. Too late smart.

Any photos of said covers?

:)


Here is Chrysler version...



(Valve_Cover.jpg)



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Powerflite
Posted 2018-11-27 2:50 PM (#574221 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501



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Wayne, I'm not sure why you limited the truck manifolds to '55 & '56. I'm pretty sure they continued to use those 4-bolt truck manifolds through at least 1959 or even later.

Also, I have never seen any truck motor that came with solid lifters. Why would they just use them on the D900?? Doesn't make sense, but maybe they did for some reason? Also, the D900 valve covers didn't come with the coil bracket on them. So I would say that the bumped covers with the coil bracket are D501 only. Below is a picture of a D900 truck motor with dual carbs, a D700 truck motor, and the D501 valve covers.



(57 D900.jpg)



(58 D700 354.jpg)



(D501 Covers.jpg)



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Attachments 58 D700 354.jpg (137KB - 183 downloads)
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Swept57
Posted 2018-11-27 3:04 PM (#574223 - in reply to #574221)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501



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Powerflite - 2018-11-27 2:50 PM

Wayne, I'm not sure why you limited the truck manifolds to '55 & '56. I'm pretty sure they continued to use those 4-bolt truck manifolds through at least 1959 or even later.

Also, I have never seen any truck motor that came with solid lifters. Why would they just use them on the D900?? Doesn't make sense, but maybe they did for some reason? Also, the D900 valve covers didn't come with the coil bracket on them. So I would say that the bumped covers with the coil bracket are D501 only. Below is a picture of a D900 truck motor with dual carbs, a D700 truck motor, and the D501 valve covers.


The truck manifolds were used at least through 1958, some believe early 60's. I have a set of NOS 4-bolt truck manifolds with a casting date of 1963.

The middle picture is not a D900, not sure of the top one. I think the bottom picture is actually one of my D501 valve cover sets. They came off engine D501-1021. Louie Poole bought the rest of that engine and created a pretty nice D501 sedan clone, though he retained the powerflite.
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-11-27 4:08 PM (#574224 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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The top picture is the D900 as it is labeled. The point of posting it is to show that there is no coil bracket on it. Also note that even a D700 doesn't have bumps on it, though that was probably already understood.

Edited by Powerflite 2018-11-27 4:11 PM
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Swept57
Posted 2018-11-27 4:29 PM (#574225 - in reply to #574224)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Powerflite - 2018-11-27 4:08 PM

The top picture is the D900 as it is labeled. The point of posting it is to show that there is no coil bracket on it. Also note that even a D700 doesn't have bumps on it, though that was probably already understood.


Maybe you are right on that. I thought I had a picture of a Dodge truck engine with the coil bracket, but can't seem to find it.
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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-27 6:52 PM (#574233 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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<p>Here are the pictures of my 57 D600 354 Hemi I had picked up a few months ago. It still has the air compressor on it (and it works!) I have not had the time to disassemble it yet, but I did have some Marvel Mystery oil equivalent squirted down the spark plug holes to loosed it up a bit before I turn it with a breaker bar on the crank bolt. When we did this we also took the cover off the head and it was not a dimpled valve cover and not the adjustable rocker style. Since I am new to the first Gen Hemi's, where do you look for the engine stamping on this block?</p><p>I will go back out in the garage and take pictures of the 4 bolt exhaust manifold. This engine came out of an 57 Dodge D600 Airport fuel truck in Georgia.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

Edited by 1959 Belvedere Conv 2018-11-27 6:57 PM




(IMG_0141.jpg)



(IMG_0140.jpg)



(IMG_0139.jpg)



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Powerflite
Posted 2018-11-27 7:05 PM (#574235 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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The stamping should be in the same place as they are for the car motors - on the top center, in front of the valley cover.
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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-27 7:07 PM (#574236 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Here is the frontal picture of the truck 354 Hemi with the unique timing cover on it putting the fuel pump on the driver's side of the motor instead of the passenger side and the oil supply tubing off the passenger side of the cover that feeds the air compressor on top. 2nd picture is of the driver's side 4 bolt exhaust manifold side. This was a manual transmission truck also.



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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-27 7:15 PM (#574238 - in reply to #574235)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Powerflite - 2018-11-27 6:05 PM The stamping should be in the same place as they are for the car motors - on the top center, in front of the valley cover.

 

Thanks! I will look in the morning for the number and alpha's  stamped on this Truck Block.

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Swept57
Posted 2018-11-27 7:44 PM (#574239 - in reply to #574225)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Powerflite - 2018-11-27 4:08 PM

The top picture is the D900 as it is labeled. The point of posting it is to show that there is no coil bracket on it. Also note that even a D700 doesn't have bumps on it, though that was probably already understood.


Here are my D501 valve cover sets, the left set is off engine 1080, the right off of 1021. Interestingly, the 1080 engine block and heads are painted red and the valve covers are black. I have a fairly complete history of the engine and it seems to be original colors, but who knows after 60 years.

Edited by Swept57 2018-11-27 7:50 PM




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StillOutThere
Posted 2018-11-27 8:34 PM (#574245 - in reply to #574221)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501



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I wasn't "limiting" the truck 4-bolt exhausts to '55-56.   Just that Kiekhaefer dipped into the parts books those two years for "stock" parts for his race cars.   In '57 the truck manifs wouldn't fit with torsion suspension.   For '54 and earlier Carrera PanAmericana he had used totally production line parts.

 

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Swept57
Posted 2018-11-27 8:39 PM (#574246 - in reply to #574245)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501



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StillOutThere - 2018-11-27 8:34 PM

I wasn't "limiting" the truck 4-bolt exhausts to '55-56.   Just that Kiekhaefer dipped into the parts books those two years for "stock" parts for his race cars.   In '57 the truck manifs wouldn't fit with torsion suspension.   For '54 and earlier Carrera PanAmericana he had used totally production line parts.

 



I have always been confused about that as the D501 used the truck manifolds with T-bar suspension. Was it that there was just enough difference in geometry between the 501 and 300C that that 501 had enough clearance?
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StillOutThere
Posted 2018-11-27 8:45 PM (#574248 - in reply to #574246)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501



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I've never owned, nor been up close personal with a 501.  The difference in wheelbase could have allowed some room perhaps?   The tight points are the power steering box (if equipped) and the rear upper leg of the right front control arm.

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Swept57
Posted 2018-11-27 8:58 PM (#574249 - in reply to #574248)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501



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StillOutThere - 2018-11-27 8:45 PM

I've never owned, nor been up close personal with a 501.  The difference in wheelbase could have allowed some room perhaps?   The tight points are the power steering box (if equipped) and the rear upper leg of the right front control arm.



To my knowledge, no D501's came with power steering, so maybe the wheelbase difference explains it. I have a Chrysler memo indicating that some of the D-501 front suspension components were pulled from existing parts bins (Imperial) and modified. Someday I really have to organize all my info.
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-11-27 9:46 PM (#574251 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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The 354 motor is .75" shorter and more narrow than the 392. This would move the exhaust away from the hitting points to some degree too.
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Swept57
Posted 2018-11-27 10:00 PM (#574253 - in reply to #574251)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Powerflite - 2018-11-27 9:46 PM

The 354 motor is .75" shorter and more narrow than the 392. This would move the exhaust away from the hitting points to some degree too.


Hadn't thought of that, but makes sense.
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-11-27 10:58 PM (#574256 - in reply to #574253)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Also there is a huge difference in the configuration of the upper control arm, Dodge versus Chrysler. Just a thought!

Greg
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Swept57
Posted 2018-11-28 8:54 AM (#574268 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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I guess that all adds up to plenty-o-clearance.

John, check your truck manifolds carefully, they were prone to cracking which is probably why they were still casting service parts in 1963!
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StillOutThere
Posted 2018-11-28 9:09 AM (#574269 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Yes, the 392 is the new "raised block" and wider, taller. Its why the 331 and 354 intakes do not bolt up to a 392 without spacers.
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57burb
Posted 2018-11-28 10:09 AM (#574271 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501



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For a Chrysler, you only need intake spacers when putting the desirable earlier "555" or "triple nickel" '55-56 low-deck dry manifold 331/354 heads onto a tall-deck 392, since those earlier heads don't have the extra casting material (built in "spacers") of a stock 392 head. For some reason, Chrysler determined to keep intakes and water crossover manifolds common to the earlier engines and made significant changes to the 392 cylinder head design to do so. It doesn't make a lot of sense, as they had to cast new flat intakes anyway for the '57-58 cars.

But that does make identifying 392 heads easy. If the thumb fits, you must acquit!



(20181128_093509.jpg)



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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-28 6:47 PM (#574298 - in reply to #574268)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Swept57 - 2018-11-28 7:54 AM I guess that all adds up to plenty-o-clearance. John, check your truck manifolds carefully, they were prone to cracking which is probably why they were still casting service parts in 1963!

 

David, Will do! I am learning a lot in this discussion..

 

John

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StillOutThere
Posted 2018-11-28 7:34 PM (#574305 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Yes, the 4-bolt truck manifolds continued to be cast into the '60s because there was call for them into the parts departments of the Dodge truck dealers. Every time Chrysler runs a mold for more castings, whatever that casting, it gets a new date inserted into the mold. Trucks are VERY hard on exhaust manifolds so they warped and cracked during their use. They needed replaced. Chrysler cast some more. Perhaps the latest were the '63s. I think that is also the latest date I've ever seen.
Very often you see a casting number on a part with a " -1 " or a " -2 ". This indicates there were two MOLDs in use at the same time for more castings to up the volume. There has to be a way to track quality control. If a whole bunch of " -1 " parts came into service departments with problems, the first question would be which mold they were made in.
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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-29 9:15 PM (#574373 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Guys, One more bit of info I am curious about, What rear end axle ratio was in a D501 Model/Package? Was it just one ratio available for this 354 Hemi powerplant like a 3.73 or was it taller?
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-29 9:49 PM (#574376 - in reply to #574373)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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1959 Belvedere Conv - 2018-11-29 9:15 PM

Guys, One more bit of info I am curious about, What rear end axle ratio was in a D501 Model/Package? Was it just one ratio available for this 354 Hemi powerplant like a 3.73 or was it taller?


I don't have the answer but it looks like it would be a function of which transmission was in play and maybe whether the housing was Dodge or Chrysler/Imperial.





(56-58DriveGearAndPinionSetRatios.jpg)



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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-29 10:46 PM (#574380 - in reply to #574376)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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56D500boy - 2018-11-29 8:49 PM
1959 Belvedere Conv - 2018-11-29 9:15 pm guys, One more bit of info I am curious about, What rear end axle ratio was in a D501 Model/Package? Was it just one ratio available for this 354 Hemi powerplant like a 3.73 or was it taller?
I don't have the answer but it looks like it would be a function of which transmission was in play and maybe whether the housing was Dodge or Chrysler/Imperial.
Dave, I think everything is out the window in the manual on the suspension, wheels, and hubs for a D501 with the 354 HEMI, One would think it would be clear-cut due to the engine and Manual transmission that was part of the 501 package but what else is in that performance model/package..? Only the guys who have the D501's can tell us: Mike Mc. and David D. "what ratio is in your individual D501 cars?"



Edited by 1959 Belvedere Conv 2018-11-29 11:41 PM
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57burb
Posted 2018-11-30 1:39 AM (#574390 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501



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All 92 "known" D501 builds were factory built with the 3spd manual transmission. With that transmission, the available rear axle ratios for the D501s were 3.73 (standard),or optional 2.92, 3.18, 3.36, 3.54, 3.91, 4.10, 4.30, 4.56, 4.89, 5.12, 5.38, 5.83, and 6.17. That's 14 ratios!

There are up to 10 "unknown" D501s whose build cards have not been located. The AMA book does say the Torqueflite auto was available for the D501 though, with 3.18 (standard) or optional 3.36 or 3.54 gear ratio. I'm not aware of evidence that an auto D501 was built, but its possible- and we know what ratios it could have had!
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Swept57
Posted 2018-11-30 7:37 AM (#574398 - in reply to #574380)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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1959 Belvedere Conv - 2018-11-29 10:46 PM

56D500boy - 2018-11-29 8:49 PM
1959 Belvedere Conv - 2018-11-29 9:15 pm guys, One more bit of info I am curious about, What rear end axle ratio was in a D501 Model/Package? Was it just one ratio available for this 354 Hemi powerplant like a 3.73 or was it taller?
I don't have the answer but it looks like it would be a function of which transmission was in play and maybe whether the housing was Dodge or Chrysler/Imperial.
Dave, I think everything is out the window in the manual on the suspension, wheels, and hubs for a D501 with the 354 HEMI, One would think it would be clear-cut due to the engine and Manual transmission that was part of the 501 package but what else is in that performance model/package..? Only the guys who have the D501's can tell us: Mike Mc. and David D. "what ratio is in your individual D501 cars?"



I have yet to determine my axle ratio, but I will when I get back to working on it. Given that the Lee Smith 501 was originally drag raced by Arnie Beswick, it probably originally had short gears, but there is a good chance they could have been changed over the years. Lee put an overdrive transmission in his to make it more street-able.

The Sonny Bensen convertible featured in an old MCG magazine was reported to be a TF trans, but that article was provided by a third party (not the owner) so the info could easily have been wrong. Unfortunately, there were no pictures of the interior. Neil tried to track that car down, but made no headway. The serial number isn't known, so it isn't clear if it is one of the known IBM cards. The owner was reported to be a ex-Chrysler exec so being auto-equipped is a little more plausible. It is surprising that that car has not surfaced since that article came out in the late 90's.
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57burb
Posted 2018-11-30 9:29 AM (#574403 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501



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David aka 'Swept57', do you know the part number for the cylinder heads on the D501 engines? John aka '1959 Belvedere Conv' was asking me about that, and I wasn't able to find the info in any old threads.

Tex Smith's book The Complete Chrysler Hemi lists part numbers for Chrysler-based Hemi engines; here are all of the published PNs for low deck Hemi heads in that 1956-57 period:

1956 all passenger car 354 - 1619 823
'54-6 truck and industrial 331 - 1634 864
'57-8 truck and industrial 354 - 1733 463
'57-9 truck and industrial 354 - 1730 438

Does your engine use one of those casting numbers? Or is there a mystery PN for the D501s?

It appears that "all" '56-8 354 blocks are 1619 829, does this jive with your blocks? thanks-
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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-30 12:22 PM (#574412 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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<p>Thanks, Danny and David, Just trying to drill down deeper. Makes sense Arnie B. would probably be running 4.56 rear end or another ratio if he was drag racing. Just trying to find out what came from the Dodge main factory before an owner switches out them to what he needs to compete. The intake head question is that if Chrysler Marine Hemi heads were already using Sodium-filled exhaust valves did Chrysler just use those Marine heads on the D501? A look at the heads when the valve covers are off some day on the 501's would answer that question. Also, did the D501's have the same small sticker on them that the Chrysler Marine Hemi heads had put on notice that the exhaust valves were sodium filled... If they warned a Marine mechanic of that fact would they not do the same for a land-based mechanic? I know I am a pest on this D501 questions... i would presume that there was no factory warranty on the car or a limited one being such a race oriented build. any info on that front?</p><p>Looking at the Getty Images there wasn't any caution sticker about the special valves, So</p>

Edited by 1959 Belvedere Conv 2018-11-30 12:45 PM




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57burb
Posted 2018-11-30 12:38 PM (#574414 - in reply to #574412)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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The 3.73 gear was standard equipment for manual-trans D501s.

The D501 of Arnie Beswick was delivered with a 4.89 gear, but was later changed to a 2.93 so it would be more drivable.

per Neil:
Took a road trip with Lee to a Detroit WPC National Meet, in the early 90's, in this car--full manual former race
car, which was delivered with the 4.89 gear set in it.

Lee had installed the 2.93 'pig' in the car, so it didn't burn any rubber on the trip, but got over 17MPG on the
highway!


That information is from this D501 thread: http://forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=28504&star...


Edited by 57burb 2018-11-30 12:40 PM
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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-30 12:49 PM (#574416 - in reply to #574414)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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57burb - 2018-11-30 11:38 AM The 3.73 gear was standard equipment for manual-trans D501s. The D501 of Arnie Beswick was delivered with a 4.89 gear, but was later changed to a 2.93 so it would be more drivable. per Neil:
Took a road trip with Lee to a Detroit WPC National Meet, in the early 90's, in this car--full manual former race car, which was delivered with the 4.89 gear set in it. Lee had installed the 2.93 'pig' in the car, so it didn't burn any rubber on the trip, but got over 17MPG on the highway!
That information is from this D501 thread: http://forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=28504&...

3.73 would sound reasonable that this model/package of the Coronet would be delivered with that gear set with a Manual Transmission.

 

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Powerflite
Posted 2018-11-30 1:49 PM (#574418 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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I can tell you that the truck, industrial & marine heads would not have been used. They couldn't have because they use a wet intake, and the D501 uses a dry intake. So the only real possibility is the standard 354 hemi head since it wouldn't make sense to use the '55 331 head; even though it flowed better and gave higher compression.

Also, that valve cover sticker was used on the trucks & industrial motors that used sodium valves too so I would assume that they put it on the D501 as well.
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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-30 2:33 PM (#574424 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Probably right but would love to get the Heads part numbers to nail it down a bit more. I would think that they (Chrysler) would assign a special part number for this non-Industrial/Marine head that would have the Sodium filled valves to differentiate it from a standard 354 Hemi Head. just would like too know what it is in case some are floating around to snag up. I am finding that a lot of people have a lot of info on the D501 that we would need to put down. I wish Neil V. was still with us...He would consolidate all of this info.
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57burb
Posted 2018-11-30 3:02 PM (#574425 - in reply to #574424)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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1959 Belvedere Conv - 2018-11-30 1:33 PM

I wish Neil V. was still with us...He would consolidate all of this info.


He had a LOT of information about the D501s. The press releases, AMA paperwork, some from Dodge, several IBM cards, his conversations with Darrell Davis and Greg Legatt, etc.

He shared this photo of his "D501 file" years ago. I wonder what happened to that?!



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56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-30 5:20 PM (#574436 - in reply to #574425)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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57burb - 2018-11-30 3:02 PM

1959 Belvedere Conv - 2018-11-30 1:33 PM

I wish Neil V. was still with us...He would consolidate all of this info.


He had a LOT of information about the D501s. The press releases, AMA paperwork, some from Dodge, several IBM cards, his conversations with Darrell Davis and Greg Legatt, etc.
He shared this photo of his "D501 file" years ago. I wonder what happened to that?!


As an "outsider" (only been here 2 years), I find it very disappointing that Neil V. did not share more of his D500 and D501 info, either with the forum as a whole, e.g. uploaded copies of D501 IBM cards, or with individuals that would do that now that Neil is gone.

Personally, if it had been me, I would have shared it all. I would not be worried about people cloning D500s or D501s because there would be enough info to debunk claims.

Moreover, seeing what I am seeing, it would appear that there is quite a bit of info hiding in threads on this forum that could still be consolidated. Corroboration could come from Wayne G. (StillOutThere), 57Burb and/or others.

I smell a D500 and/or D501 book or at the very least an article in a Mopar magazine (or something suitable).

Just sayin'



Edited by 56D500boy 2018-11-30 5:25 PM
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-11-30 5:48 PM (#574438 - in reply to #574424)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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1959 Belvedere Conv - 2018-11-30 11:33 AM

... I would think that they (Chrysler) would assign a special part number for this non-Industrial/Marine head that would have the Sodium filled valves to differentiate it from a standard 354 Hemi Head.... .


Keep in mind that we are really talking about casting numbers here, not part numbers. The numbers quoted in Tex Smith's book are casting numbers. The part number would have certainly been different, but you wouldn't find that number anywhere on the part. The casting number refers to which casting was used, and that was likely the same as the standard '56 354 hemi head.
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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-30 8:02 PM (#574445 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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<p>If a true 501 owner back in the day had a cracked head and needed it replaced...How would he do that? Parts dept order up parts based on Part Number not casting number, he would want the specific head that he had before with the sodium valves installed. How would he do that? Not by casting number I believe. That 501 owner wants the correct head, not a standard 354 Hemi head. just sayin' what I would do in a situation like that. I would like to build a 501 Tribute car (or clone) but in no way would say it was real. The data tag would prove it out that my car is a 325 poly head automatic that has a 354 dual quad Hemi in it "Like" a D501, No fraud intended. I would love to buy a true D501 Convertible (and I will) once one pops up but until then I will come as close as possible to the real McCoy.</p><p>If I can build my 354 Hemi with the correct heads (if they are out there) and Cam profile (doable) and correct compression with a low clearance, part number correct, dual quad as close as I can to the real thing till I buy one. Just in case anyone wants too know why I am asking so many questions on this subject. The best thing about a Tribute car is that you can drive it all the time, which is what I do with my 59 Belvedere Convert with the 59 Chrysler 300E 413RB dual quad in it. No false pretense but just has the biggest Engine I could put in it of that year. it was a 318 4bbl car that was missing its engine so I could do it up the way I wanted it to be. I just thought all of this info was etched in stone but it isn't.</p><p>But collectively I think we can move forward with a few more questions answered by real D501 owners for all to share the uniqueness of this car. Thanks all for listening to me on this.. My intentions are honorable on this subject.</p>

Edited by 1959 Belvedere Conv 2018-11-30 8:03 PM
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Swept57
Posted 2018-12-01 6:22 AM (#574469 - in reply to #574445)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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1959 Belvedere Conv - 2018-11-30 8:02 PM

I would love to buy a true D501 Convertible (and I will) once one pops up but until then I will come as close as possible to the real McCoy.


A D-501 Convertible is for sale at BJ Scottsdale in January. It is the real deal, but has an amateurish restoration done to it. I think it previously sold for $70K. The other two remaining convertibles are not likely to come up for sale anytime soon. So here is your chance!

Edit: As Mike pointed out below, that is not the the same convert I thought it was. So there are potentially two that will bounce around the auction houses.

Edited by Swept57 2018-12-01 1:49 PM
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Swept57
Posted 2018-12-01 10:38 AM (#574481 - in reply to #574403)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501



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57burb - 2018-11-30 9:29 AM

David aka 'Swept57', do you know the part number for the cylinder heads on the D501 engines? John aka '1959 Belvedere Conv' was asking me about that, and I wasn't able to find the info in any old threads.

Tex Smith's book The Complete Chrysler Hemi lists part numbers for Chrysler-based Hemi engines; here are all of the published PNs for low deck Hemi heads in that 1956-57 period:

1956 all passenger car 354 - 1619 823
'54-6 truck and industrial 331 - 1634 864
'57-8 truck and industrial 354 - 1733 463
'57-9 truck and industrial 354 - 1730 438

Does your engine use one of those casting numbers? Or is there a mystery PN for the D501s?

It appears that "all" '56-8 354 blocks are 1619 829, does this jive with your blocks? thanks-


Danny, I will be at my garage this weekend, and I'll get the head info. I will say this, all of the major castings are 57 parts with consistent 57 casting dates. There were no "leftover" parts used or 56 or earlier only castings with 57 casting dates.

Edited by Swept57 2018-12-01 11:44 AM
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2018-12-01 1:36 PM (#574483 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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That’s a different 501 vert. This has had a full restoration. They were wanting 300k privately.
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Swept57
Posted 2018-12-01 1:46 PM (#574486 - in reply to #574483)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Mike McCandless - 2018-12-01 1:36 PM

That’s a different 501 vert. This has had a full restoration. They were wanting 300k privately.


Ah, you are right Mike. That is a different serial number, so that is 4 known remaining converts. Do you happen to know the engine serial number Mike?

Edited by Swept57 2018-12-01 1:52 PM
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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-12-04 7:54 PM (#574670 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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<p>Well, I got a kitchen pass to go down to Scottsdale from my Wife but I am NOT to buy the 501 convertible till I restore my own 57 CRL convert first that I bought a few months ago. Makes sense, but how often do these come up for sale. So I will be taking a lot of pictures of this 501 Convertible to document it while I am down there. I will share any pictures I take to anyone who would like to see more of this. I am also trying to compile a build list from everyone's input on what goes into a 501 build. I will need everyone's help in compiling this list and from those lucky guys who actually own a D-501 whose input will be invaluable in getting this documented correctly.</p>

Edited by 1959 Belvedere Conv 2018-12-04 8:33 PM
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-12-04 8:41 PM (#574674 - in reply to #574670)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Take pictures of suspension parts, front and rear, sway bars and wheels. Then close up motor parts like carb linkage, brackets etc. would be good. Finally, a large picture of the 501 emblem. Have fun!
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-12-05 5:21 PM (#574721 - in reply to #574674)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Nathan. Can you see with your cars if a Chrysler steering knuckle (spindle) will interchange with a Dodge?
Thanks,
Greg
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-12-05 5:26 PM (#574722 - in reply to #574721)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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As I recall even the ball joints are larger at both ends.
Greg
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-12-05 5:29 PM (#574723 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Do you mean Chrysler or Imperial?

Sure, I'll take a look at it for the Chrysler. I don't own any Imperials. I do know that the 4 bolts that mount the steering linkage & backing plate are the same. Otherwise the brakes wouldn't interchange & the disc kit would only work on one of them. But the disc conversion will work on all '57-'61 Dodge, Plymouth, DeSoto & Chrysler. Probably not Imperial.

I just found out today that the idler arm & pitman arm are different between Dodge & Chrysler. But the centerlink & tie rods look the same. However, the part numbers for the center links are different so I'm not sure what is different about them.

Edited by Powerflite 2018-12-05 5:49 PM
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StillOutThere
Posted 2018-12-05 5:58 PM (#574724 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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There is one center link that fits Dodge and Plymouth length chassis. A second part number fits DeSoto and Chrysler length chassis (and I think Impl also).
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-12-05 6:01 PM (#574725 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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I agree in terms of part numbers, but when I put them side-by-side, I can't find any difference. Maybe it is in the size of the holes? I didn't measure them so that is a possibility.
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StillOutThere
Posted 2018-12-05 6:04 PM (#574726 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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All mounting points are different between the part numbers, not the hole sizes. Of course the crossover comes in the DeSoto Firesweeps and Chrysler models built on the Dodge chassis.
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-12-05 7:50 PM (#574735 - in reply to #574726)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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We have heard that the 501 uses Imperial front end parts. I know Chrysler brakes will simply bolt up to a Dodge and I'm pretty sure Imperial front drums will fit Chrysler and Dodge front spindles by using larger bearings but I can't think of any other Imp front end parts that would fit a Dodge. The same larger bearings will allow Imp front drums fit a Chrysler.

Greg
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StillOutThere
Posted 2018-12-05 8:22 PM (#574737 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Out with the Dodge spindles ball joint to joint. In with the Imperial spindles and all brake parts. Add the HD torsion cars that are Dodge length (the DeS /Chrys /Impl bars are too long). That is front "Imperial suspension" in the 300C Road America cars and on the '57 501s.
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-12-05 10:23 PM (#574741 - in reply to #574737)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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StillOutThere - 2018-12-05 8:22 PM

Out with the Dodge spindles ball joint to joint. In with the Imperial spindles and all brake parts. Add the HD torsion cars that are Dodge length (the DeS /Chrys /Impl bars are too long). That is front "Imperial suspension" in the 300C Road America cars and on the '57 501s.


Thanks, Wayne. But, I think Dodge ball joint ends are a smaller diameter, upper and lower, than Chrysler and won't couple to that steering knuckle.

Anyway, Nathan maybe could compare them and shed some light on this.
Greg
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Stroller
Posted 2018-12-06 11:32 AM (#574773 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Hm interesting. Well my dad had a 501 long time ago. He stuck a 383 in it and went circle burning. Seems to me them factory built race cars are all over the place in prices I don't think you register them to drive without doing some changes. They were not stree legal for the most part. My '60 fury was kinda like that. The origianl owner ordered it in 1959 and when he took delivery he only had it 6 months then traded it back to dealer. My dad bought the car and my mom wanted to kill him, I was not born yet. I do remember the car from when I was a little kid and it was super fast and never lost a race. To me that era for Mopar was the precursor to what became the muscle cars. I bought the car from my dads estate back in '79 and it has been a chore to hold on to it this long.

As the wheels of the chryslers and imperials. I am not sure if they are different but since my '56 Imperial Crown Royal has the large studs it may make a difference. The lugs nuts are 7/8ths. Did the other chryslers have reverse lug threads on the other side?
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Swept57
Posted 2018-12-06 5:22 PM (#574801 - in reply to #574737)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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StillOutThere - 2018-12-05 8:22 PM

Out with the Dodge spindles ball joint to joint. In with the Imperial spindles and all brake parts. Add the HD torsion cars that are Dodge length (the DeS /Chrys /Impl bars are too long). That is front "Imperial suspension" in the 300C Road America cars and on the '57 501s.


That seems to be what was done, but I have a Chrysler memo that indicates that the spindle was modified, at least for the 501. I don't have an Imperial one to compare.
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-12-06 7:51 PM (#574807 - in reply to #574801)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Swept57 - 2018-12-06 5:22 PM

StillOutThere - 2018-12-05 8:22 PM

Out with the Dodge spindles ball joint to joint. In with the Imperial spindles and all brake parts. Add the HD torsion cars that are Dodge length (the DeS /Chrys /Impl bars are too long). That is front "Imperial suspension" in the 300C Road America cars and on the '57 501s.


That seems to be what was done, but I have a Chrysler memo that indicates that the spindle was modified, at least for the 501. I don't have an Imperial one to compare.


But you do have a regular Dodge one to compare it with! That would certainly help to identify the modifications.

Greg
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Swept57
Posted 2018-12-06 8:14 PM (#574809 - in reply to #574807)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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LD3 Greg - 2018-12-06 7:51 PM

Swept57 - 2018-12-06 5:22 PM

StillOutThere - 2018-12-05 8:22 PM

Out with the Dodge spindles ball joint to joint. In with the Imperial spindles and all brake parts. Add the HD torsion cars that are Dodge length (the DeS /Chrys /Impl bars are too long). That is front "Imperial suspension" in the 300C Road America cars and on the '57 501s.


That seems to be what was done, but I have a Chrysler memo that indicates that the spindle was modified, at least for the 501. I don't have an Imperial one to compare.


But you do have a regular Dodge one to compare it with! That would certainly help to identify the modifications.

Greg


Yes, but the memo says that a modified Imperial spindle was used on the 501. I would like to see a stock Imperial spindle to compare with to see exactly how it was modified for the 501 application.
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-12-06 8:34 PM (#574814 - in reply to #574809)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Swept57 - 2018-12-06 8:14 PM

LD3 Greg - 2018-12-06 7:51 PM

Swept57 - 2018-12-06 5:22 PM

StillOutThere - 2018-12-05 8:22 PM

Out with the Dodge spindles ball joint to joint. In with the Imperial spindles and all brake parts. Add the HD torsion cars that are Dodge length (the DeS /Chrys /Impl bars are too long). That is front "Imperial suspension" in the 300C Road America cars and on the '57 501s.


That seems to be what was done, but I have a Chrysler memo that indicates that the spindle was modified, at least for the 501. I don't have an Imperial one to compare.


But you do have a regular Dodge one to compare it with! That would certainly help to identify the modifications.

Greg


Yes, but the memo says that a modified Imperial spindle was used on the 501. I would like to see a stock Imperial spindle to compare with to see exactly how it was modified for the 501 application.


So would I! Easy for you to start determining the mods. Just compare the wrench size of the upper and lower ball joint castle nuts(the ones that secure the joints to the steering knuckle) for regular Dodge and 501.
Greg
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-12-07 10:43 AM (#574837 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Greg, I measured the Chrysler and Dodge spindles. The Chrysler uses larger ball joints. The threaded part of the studs on the Chrysler upper control arm are 9/16", and the studs on the Dodge are 1/2". The size of the socket needed to remove them are also different. 1.906" for the Dodge and 2.125" for the Chrysler.

Edited by Powerflite 2018-12-07 10:56 AM
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2018-12-07 11:22 AM (#574841 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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You guys just want to show up and go through lee's car lol
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-12-07 12:02 PM (#574844 - in reply to #574837)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Powerflite - 2018-12-07 10:43 AM

Greg, I measured the Chrysler and Dodge spindles. The Chrysler uses larger ball joints. The threaded part of the studs on the Chrysler upper control arm are 9/16", and the studs on the Dodge are 1/2". The size of the socket needed to remove them are also different. 1.906" for the Dodge and 2.125" for the Chrysler.


Thanks Nathan. Certainly no interchange between Dodge and Chrysler ball joints and steering knuckles and Imp. ball joints will likely be the same size as Chrysler. Interesting to hear from David.

Greg
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-12-07 12:07 PM (#574846 - in reply to #574841)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Mike McCandless - 2018-12-07 11:22 AM

You guys just want to show up and go through lee's car lol


Thanks for the invitation Mike! We could stay for a few days and check out all your cars?! Fantastic collection, well done!

Greg
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2018-12-07 12:18 PM (#574847 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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You guys think I'm joking, but if you guys ever got organized and wanted to spend time poking around a car, I'm sure we could make it happen.
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Swept57
Posted 2018-12-07 12:38 PM (#574852 - in reply to #574847)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Mike McCandless - 2018-12-07 12:18 PM

You guys think I'm joking, but if you guys ever got organized and wanted to spend time poking around a car, I'm sure we could make it happen.


Yes! I spent a lot of time poking around Lee's car in his shop, but at the time there were questions I didn't even know to ask. I'd love to come down, but first I need to compile all my info into something coherent so I don't overlook anything. Thanks for the offer!
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-12-07 11:30 PM (#574881 - in reply to #574852)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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David,
With respect to the current front suspension topic, you don't need to compile anything. Just tell us the wrench size of the ball joint castle nuts of your 501! The results will be obvious and go a long way to tell the truth about these so-called mods to Imp steering knuckles.

I, too, have many, many photos of Lee's car taken both by myself and Neil all about 30years ago. You are correct. It is time to tabulate all available info.

Greg
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