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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | lookin for some thoughts here ,,,, please --------------------------------------------------------later
https://www.ebay.com/itm/112124430669?ul_noapp=true |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7393
Location: northern germany | For me? Way too wild. Depends on what YOU're looking for. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1102
Location: Hayward, Calif | Hey Chuck, Haven't heard from you in awhile. Hope all is well. I don't know anything about Howard Cams, good or bad. I used an Edlebrock cam from summit when I built up LA360 for wife's 59 dodge. It's just a cruiser, no high speed racing involved. So it works good in this application. They do have an assortment of different 'lift and overlap' cams available. Jerry |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 888
Location: Peoples Republic of Oregon | What is the plan? |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | nothing big , just a good sounding street ripper . when i opened my 383 magnum clone top end ( not all the way yet ) i found 1 collapsed lifter and stopped til i get all top end and cam parts and pieces . it has
@ 5000 miles on a rebuild by previous owner , so said to be . my thinking is that a cam with 500 or less lift will work well for my wants , along with the cam matching parts , which is why i'm looking at the cam
above . if i remember correctly a 69 383 magnum has a lift of @ 450 , 268-283 duration
jerry , i'm doing ok not perfect but ok . a while back i had to have some new heart plumbing since my open heart , 6 way bypass was almost exactly 10 yrs old .
now i have a pacemaker-defib and a new stent |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 888
Location: Peoples Republic of Oregon | That cam in a 383 should be plenty. Hopefully this a 4-spd car. |
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Expert
Posts: 3774
Location: NorCal | 60 dart - 2018-06-08 2:45 PM
if i remember correctly a 69 383 magnum has a lift of @ 450 , 268-283 duration
The original Magnum cam has 115° lobe centers, the Howards has 112° lobe centers which will produce a choppier idle and less off-idle drivability than the Magnum. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | wayfarer - 2018-06-09 9:40 AM
That cam in a 383 should be plenty. Hopefully this a 4-spd car.
yes , 833 |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 406
Location: Hilltown, PA |
Have you looked at/talked to Hughes Engines?
Mopar only guys with a pretty impressive website and reputation.
http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/index.php
Gregg |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | thanks , but no hilltown i haven't . as of now i'm gone forward with the howards . the biggest reason is cost and matching parts . so its a win , lose or draw situation from here . from what i know and things
forgotten but i've read up on , it should be ok for my wants ,,, thanks everyone ---------------------------------------------------------------later |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 888
Location: Peoples Republic of Oregon | Keep us posted on the first drive. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | opened up the left bank today . 6 of 8 lifters i could compress by hand and push rod 1/8 to 1/4 of an inch very easily . never seen that one before . kind of odd swirl on tops of pistons , like a Loch ness monster
look , maybe ying/yang . cylinders still have swirls from honing . real clean inside . valve seals need replaced with an upgrade--------------------------------------------------later |
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Veteran
Posts: 154
Location: Locked in my Canadian garage.... | That cam in a 440 would be verrrrry streetable. 112 LSA with 225/235 at 050 is fine. It will be a choppier cam in a 383 though. Howards Cams are good quality cams, we have used many
Make sure you have decent static compression IMO!! Measure how far down in the hole it is!!!
Edited by CrAzYMoPaRGuY 2018-06-23 12:37 PM
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | thanks crazy . now , would anyone use used push rods/from same motor . i always have with no problems but not with a setup like this . i have a set of lightweight hardened speed pro --------------------------------- later |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | i don't know how but i'm coming up with piston to deck clearance of @ .080 . thats crazy deep for a motor that is supposed to be 10:1 compression------------------------------------------------------------later |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 9648
Location: So. Cal | What is the head cc? I can calculate the compression if you can tell me. I would assume you are using a head gasket .04" thick once compressed. As far as using used pushrods, as long as the ends are all still tight, with no mushrooming at the connection, you should be OK. |
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Expert
Posts: 3774
Location: NorCal | If you don't have a way to measure the chamber volumes, the head casting number will give a clue to the volume. Of course, the original volume will be reduced if there has been any surfacing of the heads; to check for any surfacing, measure the outer deck, it was exactly one inch thick when new. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | thanks , the heads are 516's with 1.74 upgraded exhaust valve . the head gasket will be a steel .020 before install . the heads have been cleaned up on the mating surface but don't look much
different "by eye" than stock oem heads right next to them , again thanks guys . i need all the help i can get!-----------------------------------------later |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 9648
Location: So. Cal | Assuming a stock bore & stroke on a 383, 88cc combustion chamber volume, .02" gasket thickness, and .08" deep deck height; I calculate a compression of 8.0:1 compression ratio. That's a smog motor for sure. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | so what should i expect with motor performance as a street motor , given aspects that have been gone over --------------------------------------------------later |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 9648
Location: So. Cal | High compression makes a wild cam feel less wild. Low compression with a wild cam will have very low vacuum at idle, you will have to increase the idle speed to keep it running, and it won't make much power until you get the rpm's higher, i.e. little low end torque. This is speaking generally, not in reference to the specific cam you have chosen. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 888
Location: Peoples Republic of Oregon | Agree with Powerflite, big cams and low compression are real lazy at low rpm. In a moderalely heavy car it will not be a fun drive. |
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Expert
Posts: 3774
Location: NorCal | 60 dart - 2018-06-24 3:56 PM
thanks , the heads are 516's with 1.74 upgraded exhaust valve .
The 516's have an advertised chamber volume of 73.5 CC's but will usually measure around 78 CC's so that brings your estimated CR closer to 9.5-1. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 9648
Location: So. Cal | 73.5 cc gives 9.11:1
78.0 cc gives 8.75:1 |
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Expert
Posts: 3774
Location: NorCal | Yeah, my bad, I was using the RB stroke in my calculations. DOH!!
Edited by 57chizler 2018-06-26 11:44 AM
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 9648
Location: So. Cal | That's a convenient calculator. I figured out the formula: CompRatio= 1 + Swept volume/(combustion chamber volume + deck volume + gasket volume - piston dome volume)
I came up with a spreadsheet to calculate it when i had to figure out the compression on my weird 392 project.
Looks like summit and I get the same number so that's reassuring that someone at summit knows what they are doing. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | single or dual plane oem intake? ------------------------------------------------------------later |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | and whats the best economical way to get the compression ratio up . i got all these remedies runnin through my head , none of which i really like --------------------------later |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | and again the actual piston depth is .095 . checked again the piston stop @ tdc . heads off , feeler gauge stacked -------------------------------------------later |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | yes , it keeps gettin worse ------------------------------------------later |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 9648
Location: So. Cal | If it were me, I would tear it apart and replace the pistons & bearings. You wouldn't have to do the main bearings, but I would while you are there. Not hard to do yourself. If you keep the rings in order, you can reuse them if you wish. That way you don't have to re-surface the bores. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | thanks socal , thats what i just came up with myself . the numbers off the top of the pistons are 366NP motorhome pistons (silvolite), compression height of 1.848 i
m needin @ 1.935 . i'm shootin for new pistons , rings and bearings . takin out the motor will be a chore for me . you guys are the best , thanks ---------------------------------------------later
Edited by 60 dart 2018-06-28 12:22 AM
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | the best i'm goin to do is probably 1.920 piston comp. height . that should be 23 below deck correct ? which should bring the compression ratio to @ 9.5 or higher
depending on which head gasket i use , .040 or .020 . not real easy trying to find a reasonable machine shop here . all the napa ones have closed but i found one
up river ( bout 20mi. ) , to press the pistons onto rods @ 10$ a hit , which i think is more than fair . he's one of the ex-napa machinists that now has his own
motor performance shop including a dyno , which is extremely rare in this part of the tri state area . -----------------------------------------------later |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 9648
Location: So. Cal | If your .095" measurement is correct, then yes, this one should give you .023" in the hole. That equates to a 9.9:1 compression with a .02" gasket & 78cc combustion chamber. Goes down to 9.5:1 with a .04" gasket. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | thanks socal ----------------------------------------------------later |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | is 10.0:1 CPR too much for pump gas and should i stick with 0.020 head gasket or the 0.040 @ 9.5:1 cpr ------------------------------------------------------later |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 888
Location: Peoples Republic of Oregon | You might be in questionable territory at 10:1 unless the cam has alot of valve overlap.
The older I get the more conservative I become so the 9.5 looks good to me in a wedge headed engine unless you start adding a bunch of electronics.
Swapping heads or head gaskets are easier than changing pistons. JMHO |
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Expert
Posts: 3774
Location: NorCal | 60 dart - 2018-07-01 12:47 PM
is 10.0:1 CPR too much for pump gas and should i stick with 0.020 head gasket or the 0.040 @ 9.5:1 cpr
The possibility of detonation at higher compression ratios invokes the subject of quench. With the closed chamber heads it's easier to get good quench but the desired quench is in the .020" neighborhood so a deck of .023" and a gasket of .020" (total .043" quench) isn't optimal but might be better than the .063" quench that the thicker gasket provides. IOW, you might be better off, detonation wise, with the higher compression.
Scroll down a little over half way to the "Squish and Quench" chapter on this page:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/cylinder-heads/
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | i'm thinkin with the 516 heads , which i have , it'll be ok with .020 head gaskets .................... 64 came with these heads which i also have, weren't they also oem steel head gaskets around .020 ---------------------------------------------later |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | thinkin something like this ,,,,,,,,
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ideal-quench-height/ |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | i'm wonderin before i get everything to a somewhat local engine builder , if i'm goin to have valve to piston issue with the lift i have picked and flat top pistons --------------------------------------------------------later
i'll be gettin it all better matched also(pistons are)" and interior rebalanced . my harmonic balancer and flywheel are
now 0 balance -------------------------------------------
Edited by 60 dart 2018-07-22 7:16 PM
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Regular
Posts: 50
Location: Apple Valley, CA | For what it is worth, I have been running howards cams stuff in a bunch of motors lately with excellent results. I am running their 225/233 .525/.531 110lsa hydraulic roller in a 350 Chevy and it runs amazingly well. Power brakes, idle all day long, great power everywhere, and will lug down to 1800 rpm in over drive on the freeway to get 20 mpg.
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | what cfm carb you got with that howards cam . my motor guy seems to think nothing less than 750 with vac. secondaries "not mech. sec's" ---------------------------------------------------------later
Edited by 60 dart 2018-07-29 6:14 PM
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Regular
Posts: 50
Location: Apple Valley, CA | On my Camaro? A 600 double pumper.
Its a vortec 350 with a little porting
Rpm air gap intake
600dp
1 3/4 headers
10.25:1 compression
.040 quench
With the 200 4r trans 3.23s and a 3200 stall and a weight of 3310 lbs with out my 160lbs has run 12.40 at 108 mph. |
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Regular
Posts: 50
Location: Apple Valley, CA | Fwiw my wifes 1965 Mustang we built a 347 with aluminum heads 10.2:1 compression .039 quench. Rpm air gap. 650dp (a 600 would be better). A Howards hydraulic roller 219/225 .544/.533 lift 112lsa 108 icl.
C4 stock converter and 3.00 rear gears it ran a 13.1 at 102mph.
Unfortunately on that pass 3rd gear let go on the 2-3shift. So that was coasting at like 900ish feet. That was also with a 600 vs carb and a Weiand version of the regular performer intake.
Edited by Cataldo 2018-08-02 5:04 PM
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7393
Location: northern germany | 60 dart - 2018-07-29 6:12 PM
what cfm carb you got with that howards cam . my motor guy seems to think nothing less than 750 with vac. secondaries "not mech. sec's" ---------------------------------------------------------later
For a 383 NEVER go under 750cfm. Regardless what the theory says. Dyno tests have shown again and again the 383 needs at least 750 cfm. That is also my personal experience. |
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Regular
Posts: 50
Location: Apple Valley, CA | Its an easy test with a vacuum gauge. Run it WOT and make sure your at 0 vacuum. 1 or 2" is not bad but you should read 0. If its reading any vacuum at WOT (assuming secondaries are open) then the carb is too small.
Edit: not saying a 750 isnt necessary, I would agree on a healthy 383 a 750 is very appropriate. With Holley vacuum secondary carbs with stiff springs they wont open all the way and will flow much less cfm, its amazing how many people dont ever take the time to change them and potentially give up a lot of power.
Edited by Cataldo 2018-08-02 7:09 PM
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | the old carb was a holley 750 DP. wasn't the factory 4 bbl afb's way less than 750 cfm-----------------------------------------------------------------later |
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Regular
Posts: 50
Location: Apple Valley, CA | Yeah they are 500 to 625cfm mostly. There are bigger ones, but few. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | finally goin after my machined parts , late afternoon . just talked to the builder machinist builder a little while ago , says he aint movin on till my parts are done! it's been
since 8/3 he's had em ----------------------------------------------------later |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | ok , here's where i'm stuck at . the valves are hittin the pistons . what's the short/less cash fix form all the info above . please don't tell me relieved pistons ----------------------------------------------later |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 360
| more gasket. How bad are they hitting? More gasket is your easiest solution if it is one at all. Is your cam dialed in correct? Is it just the exhaust side or both? Get a degree wheel and degree your cam if you haven't just to be sure. |
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Expert
Posts: 1740
Location: Alaska | There is always the backyard hotrodder approach. Take a couple of valves and weld/braze cutting edges on them and "carefully" relieve the pistons yourself. I believe they even make tools to do this. Of course this may change the balance of your engine so only remove what is needed. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | thanks guys . haven't got to cam "specs/card" just yet as i got to re-educate myself to the proper method long forgotten----------------------------------------------------------------later
Edited by 60 dart 2018-10-17 2:01 AM
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Veteran
Posts: 154
Location: Locked in my Canadian garage.... | OK this now surprises me. .023" down the hole, a flat top piston and the Howards cam listed??? Is your timing chain installed correctly?? Degree the cam? That isn't a huge cam IMO.. Strange |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | thanks , yes listed cam , https://www.ebay.com/itm/112124430669?ul_noapp=true . the timing chain and the valve center line checked . intake CL came out at @ 109.25 . for a dummy lifter i took 2 hydraulic ones . cleaned it out ,
added JB weld put the guts back in , including the lock spring and let it setup . could the throw be too much now?? over using a mechanical one . to use a dial on the lobe centerline check . i gutted a hydraulic lifter cleaned
it up filled it @ 1/2 and inserted a 5" piece of old pushrod let setup . right now i can't pull my hair out cause i got little left . i wanted to get this back in before snow and cold but hell no . here's a real cutesy for ya . i have a new
crank ratchet adaptor/timing wheel holder from jegs . after a little while it seemed like it was slipping and it was . when i first got it it didn't really look right with a roll pins on each side sticking out @ 3/16" . i figured it was alright ,
NOT . both pins missed the inside holes and was only biting in the sides of the center piece . had to pull em out , line things up and drive em home . the adaptor from jegs is a 2 piece . i'm really needin some serious help here -----------------------------------later
psssss . does the 516 heads have more shallow valves than the 906's or the same???
Edited by 60 dart 2018-10-18 2:28 AM
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Expert
Posts: 3031
Location: N.W. Fla. | thought I had valves hitting flat top pistons recently, but it turned out I had left 2 crankflange bolts in & they were hitting the engine stand. :-( |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 360
| Are your pistons coming up past the deck of the block at top dead center? You can get a rough idea of clearance needed with a valve opened to .735 intake and .732 on exhaust from the seat. This should be the max lift each valve will ever see. See if they are going past the deck of the heads at the max lift, then compare that to the piston top dead center height and the gasket height. You will likely need to remove a spring on an intake and exhaust to do this or figure out a way to operate a valve on a bench.
Just throwing ideas out there. Clearance issues are the bane of building an engine. If your pistons are going past the block deck height and the valves are close to the head deck then you will know for sure. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | at the top dead center or the cam at centerline . the pistons are in the hole @ .023 . the pistons never go above deck . with a .040 gasket there is no clearance , add another .020 and
i get clearance/free moving piston . is there a way to get around fly cutting the pistons ---------------------------------------------------later |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 9648
Location: So. Cal | Different heads? |
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Expert
Posts: 1740
Location: Alaska | I believe the 516 & the 906 heads have the same valves and valve angles even if the combustion chamber is shaped differently. That probably won't help with your problem. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 360
| Valve relief pistons are the way to go that way you aren't losing so much compression. Yeah more money is the sad part but piece of mind in the end is worth it. Someone mentioned using a valve in the guide as cutter for the relief, this can work if your pistons have enough thickness on the dome. Potentially playing with fire in my opinion but a cheap alternative to buying a set of pistons or pulling them and having them machined. Either way you have a headache to address if you want to maintain as much compression as possible. If you are near a 9 : 1 compression ratio with the extra gasket then it may not be worth screwing with. Keep in mind the slight expansion of metal parts with heat. A thin layer of clay on the piston dome while rotating the crank with head installed can give you an idea of how much clearance you have. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | piston are @ .480 at inside center with being a little convex at that point . at this point i'm guessing i'll need somewhere @ .160 to .180 to get enough play room with .170 being optimum . the old silverlite
i replaced were .350 at center . so at the new forged piston fly cut it would be @ .410 , @ 9.5:1 cpr . . i'm thinkin 410 thickness should be enough meat to control 9.5 cpr???? -------------------------------------------later
just looked this up after my post , # 9 i think answers thickness questions
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2017/03/10-things-might-not-know-pi...
Edited by 60 dart 2018-10-19 5:31 PM
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | haven't done much to the motor but i found the mistake -------------------------------------------------later |
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