Posted 2019-06-03 3:22 AM (#582860 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Jay is a great guy. It's really cool that he showcased Per's car like that. Jay recently purchased another Imperial that Per is working on so he's getting into the '50's Mopars a little more. Anyone ever hear of that dealer option master cylinder remote reservoir? I'll have to ask Per about it the next time I talk to him.
Posted 2019-06-03 2:26 PM (#582875 - in reply to #582860) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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A few inaccuracies throughout the whole thing, but I enjoyed Per and Jay cruising around in the car and chatting like old friends. Beautiful and interesting car, and a great video.
Posted 2019-06-04 10:56 AM (#582921 - in reply to #582859) Subject: RE: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Very cool video. Thumbs up, for sure. I would have been interested in seeing some more details of the upgraded fuel injection that Per has installed in the car. He said it was not exactly the same as the original Bendix equipment (which didn't work very good anyway) but improved. I half expected for Jay and he to go put it on a dyno too to see what numbers he would get for output. I'd still like to know that.
Posted 2019-06-04 3:46 PM (#582930 - in reply to #582926) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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mikes2nd - 2019-06-04 9:15 AM
yeah you can tell they are good friends, Jay didn't believe the mileage or the horsepower claim. I honestly don't doubt the HP claim.
Except that Per misspoke the factory power claim as being 280 and 290 instead of 380 and 390. If Jay believed the original numbers, then he would have a harder time believing the 400-425HP.
Posted 2019-06-05 8:30 AM (#582951 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Cool car and it's great that Jay & Co. have so many good projects.
But...as we've discussed before, the fuel injection part becomes not-so-special once you make it a modern EFI system as they did. The dreaded 'C' word - computer, in this case - was used. That sorta negates the uniqueness of the fact that the 300D used the first electronic injection since it's been replaced by something that's as common as butter on toast.
Posted 2019-06-05 4:39 PM (#582972 - in reply to #582951) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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GregCon - 2019-06-05 6:30 AM
Cool car and it's great that Jay & Co. have so many good projects.
But...as we've discussed before, the fuel injection part becomes not-so-special once you make it a modern EFI system as they did. The dreaded 'C' word - computer, in this case - was used. That sorta negates the uniqueness of the fact that the 300D used the first electronic injection since it's been replaced by something that's as common as butter on toast.
I wonder if the original controller could be reverse engineered and a new one using all modern components be constructed. Like all things electronics from that era, the designers were limited to the THEN state of the art in component quality. Modern parts are often more robust and temperature resistant.
Posted 2019-06-05 5:03 PM (#582974 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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But then it still wouldn't be original! Face it, the original was crap and was recalled. It wasn't even worthy to leave on the original cars. There are likely some fundamental issues with it. To make it work today, you would have to reverse engineer it, and then re-design it so it works. It still wouldn't be original. The original system is great for a museum; but if it were my car, I would have done it exactly like Per did so I could drive and enjoy it. Save the museum parts to put into a museum.
Posted 2019-06-05 5:21 PM (#582975 - in reply to #582974) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Powerflite - 2019-06-05 3:03 PM
But then it still wouldn't be original! Face it, the original was crap and was recalled. It wasn't even worthy to leave on the original cars. There are likely some fundamental issues with it. To make it work today, you would have to reverse engineer it, and then re-design it so it works. It still wouldn't be original. The original system is great for a museum; but if it were my car, I would have done it exactly like Per did so I could drive and enjoy it. Save the museum parts to put into a museum.
One advantage to "analog" fuel injection: no computer.... just easily sourced electronic parts.. but you're right, modern EFI is better for reliability..
Posted 2019-06-05 6:27 PM (#582983 - in reply to #582974) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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It's impossible to have a functional, original Bendix Electrojector - because they were non-functional when they were new! There is no way to get around the fact to make one work, you will have to eliminate all the junk that made the program an embarrassing debacle.
And that's what Per has done here. It is an original EFI car (rare!) using an original EFI intake (rare!) and original EFI throttle bodies (rare!). The fuel system, injectors, and controlling mechanism are "new" but they are hidden and they make the system functional. I don't see any other way to make a Bendix car work.
Sure would have been great if the Chryslers had used the "good" EFI logo though
Posted 2019-06-05 7:50 PM (#582987 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Well, there's no doubt the modern EFI is way better in terms of functionality. But, by converting the D to modern EFI, you lose the 'bragging rights' of it being an original EFI car. He used the original intake and TB's? Well....big deal. Those parts (especially the intake) are possibly the easiest parts to use.
It's an awesome car, as any nice 300D would be. It also cool that it was an original FI car. It's just not nearly as cool as if it had a working original system, even if the original system were modernized here and there with better components.
Posted 2019-06-05 10:45 PM (#582992 - in reply to #582859) Subject: RE: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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I thought that was the way the fellow who had the only functional fuel injected 1958 De Soto got the Bendix system to work - by replacing all of the vintage electronic components in the controller box with modern more robust items?
I like what Per has done to the car. Putting an original fuel injected 300D back on the road in its original configuration is noteworthy, even if he had to use a modern style computer controller to make it work properly. Cars were meant to be enjoyed, and that one looks like it would be a lot of fun.I thought it was interesting to hear the vintage starter cranking over that old Hemi when Jay took it out for a test drive. It didn't seem to catch right away though which puzzled me as FI cars are usully good starters. Maybe a tweak on the old laptop is needed?
Posted 2019-06-06 1:33 AM (#582995 - in reply to #582992) Subject: RE: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
Location: Parts Unknown
Nothing about this car is original. The paint is modern, the tires are radials, those emblems
are made of modern plastic. The air in the tires certainly isn't OEM. Why, it's nothing but a
modernized mess !
Posted 2019-06-06 8:47 AM (#583008 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Yuk Yuk.
Actually if the emblems are plastic that's not so hot either.
On the DeSoto...I'm not sure what was done but from what I remember reading it was a far more faithful rendering of the original system. He used some more modern parts where needed but maintained the basic structure of the original system. I seem to recall some coils being wrapped in wax paper to get them to work more reliably or something like that. That's definitely 'old school' not modern.
But I agree with Doc. If we're gonna allow non-original air in the tires we might as well allow an LS1 with air bag suspension and a 'vette rear end. Indeed!
Posted 2019-06-06 9:07 AM (#583011 - in reply to #582859) Subject: RE: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
Location: North Australia
Tough crowd!
I recon Per done a good job, a really good job. Hell, it's just an old Chrysler right? How good do you want it? Definitely better now, 50 odd years after it was chucked away.
Maybe Per put a 5 second start delay into the program to mimic the original system?? (Just joking). The Guy is obviously a perfectionist (Per for short), and good on him for recreating this car.
As for the plastic emblems, sounds like Australian George Laurie made them. And Greg, LS1?? Nope, not cool.
Posted 2019-06-06 9:09 AM (#583012 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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So if the system was replaced with a new system, it is no longer interesting to me. If it's new, they could have used a carbureted car,
its makes no difference. In this case they killed a piece of engineering history. I'm all for upgrades and improvements,
if the basic system remains unchanged.
I do not doubt that the OE system was troublesome BUT after all, they ok'ed it after rigorous testing (Chrysler was known for that).
So at least one or two systems must have been working troublefree. This proves a functional OE EFI IS possible and that makes me think
the basic system could be improved once the bugs are pinpointed.
There are lots of mechanical car-myths out there (because some people are not so bright and blame their incompetence on the manufacturer),
like the one that the Chrysler independent parking brake never worked, which is BS. So a more complicated thing,
like the EFI, is more easily screwed up.
Posted 2019-06-06 9:21 AM (#583017 - in reply to #582859) Subject: RE: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
Location: North Australia
Hey Sid, with all respect, I don't think that 'they killed a piece of engineering history'. On the contrary, it was brought back from the dead. And rightly so.
This vid and the car also does another thing. It makes a whole lot of other people (other than us!) aware that Chrysler made a FI car back in the 50's.
That's pretty important too, if only to brag/boast to the Ferd/Chivvy crowd. Even if it was a dud at the time, it was still another Chrysler Corporation technological first.
Posted 2019-06-06 9:46 AM (#583019 - in reply to #583017) Subject: RE: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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60 Imp - 2019-06-06 9:21 AM
Hey Sid, with all respect, I don't think that 'they killed a piece of engineering history'. On the contrary, it was brought back from the dead.
Steve.
Okay, yes. It was brought back, but not the system. As I said they could have used a regular D with EFI badges glued to it. So it is nice they brought it back, like any FL car but not so nice they killed the OE EFI.
Posted 2019-06-06 10:49 AM (#583023 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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He didn't kill it in any sense of the term. First of all, he didn't have the original system to begin with. He had to gather up parts as he could find them. Remember that EFI system for the DeSoto that came up for sale here in LA for $5500? I mentioned that to him and showed him where the ad was. He went and bought it so he could get the original throttle bodies that he needed. He never had the original electronics so he didn't kill them either. Everything he has done to the system can be converted back to the original *IF* you can find the rest of it and make it work.
Posted 2019-06-06 4:30 PM (#583032 - in reply to #583023) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Powerflite - 2019-06-06 10:49 AM
He didn't kill it in any sense of the term. First of all, he didn't have the original system to begin with. He had to gather up parts as he could find them. Remember that EFI system for the DeSoto that came up for sale here in LA for $5500? I mentioned that to him and showed him where the ad was. He went and bought it so he could get the original throttle bodies that he needed. He never had the original electronics so he didn't kill them either. Everything he has done to the system can be converted back to the original *IF* you can find the rest of it and make it work.
How do you know? New injectors in the OE intake, etc? I just hate faking things. Want to convert to FI, ok, just take an intake
that breathes better than the OE unit and do not PRETEND to be original.
The generator falls into that categorie too. What is the point to fake such things? One of the benefits of an alternator is that it weighs
less, so why take a heavy generator housing? It is not original anyway, period. So why? Aesthetics? Certainly not. It makes no sense.
Of course, to each his own and it is a nice car, I just don't get it.
Posted 2019-06-06 5:36 PM (#583035 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Often it is about the aesthetics, hence wide whitewall radial tires. Better components, better brakes, better paint, etc. Many of Jay Leno's cars get Willwood brakes. Cars are made to drive! Drive and enjoy! My only personal issue is using same make engines in cars. Chevy in a Chevy, Ford in a Ford, Mopar in a Mopar... but thats just me..;)
Posted 2019-06-07 1:21 AM (#583047 - in reply to #583032) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Constant temperature fluctuations, sustained high heat, and moisture make the engine compartment of a car THE most inappropriate environment for the wax paper insulated electronic parts of the 1950s. The Bendix EFI was a great design (the basic architecture is still in use today), but the electronic components of the time were hopelessly unsuitable for the job. Chrysler was embarrassed by the project, and the cars were quickly and quietly converted and forgotten. IMO it's crazy to expect anyone to spend six figures restoring a car using "correct" parts that would render it an undriveable, useless museum artifact.
Per did this car really right! I love that he maintained the manifold and throttle bodies and took care to make the injectors and fuel rail look like the old ones. I agree that I would probably have tried to keep the original generator, but the smooth and consistent alternator output is probably more suitable for the computer. The only thing that "I" would do if it were mine is to recreate all the crazy shielding! I'm not sure if the production cars had it, but all the promo photos show it and it's a pretty distinctive look for the Bendix cars. I think the car is just superb and getting a real Bendix car on the road with (most of) its original EFI is quite an accomplishment.
Posted 2019-06-07 3:11 AM (#583053 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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I m pretty amazed over all the crying ,,, done this ,and done that ,wrong here and there ,he saved and restored a car ,as ``he`` wanted it,, and if he wants the carbs on,, its an easy task ,they done that 61 years ago, ,can be done again, so those who screem the highest , send some pictures of what you acomplished, ,just my few cents , (( if im gonna be pissed on for this , dont care ,Im to old to care..))
Posted 2019-06-07 3:14 AM (#583054 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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i have the Desoto leftovers ,whats left of it ,from Per,,gonna do the same and make it look as autentic as possible, its challence just to get all the old s**t working and still look org
Posted 2019-06-07 7:42 AM (#583057 - in reply to #583053) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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58wedge - 2019-06-07 3:11 AM I m pretty amazed over all the crying ,,, done this ,and done that ,wrong here and there ,he saved and restored a car ,as ``he`` wanted it,, and if he wants the carbs on,, its an easy task ,they done that 61 years ago, ,can be done again, so those who screem the highest , send some pictures of what you acomplished, ,just my few cents , (( if im gonna be pissed on for this , dont care ,Im to old to care..))
Per did a great job with that car... just the same two old complainers :) Amazing restore, we all know it, Jay and Per know it also.
Posted 2019-06-07 8:35 AM (#583061 - in reply to #583057) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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mikes2nd - 2019-06-07 7:42 AM
58wedge - 2019-06-07 3:11 AM I m pretty amazed over all the crying ,,, done this ,and done that ,wrong here and there ,he saved and restored a car ,as ``he`` wanted it,, and if he wants the carbs on,, its an easy task ,they done that 61 years ago, ,can be done again, so those who screem the highest , send some pictures of what you acomplished, ,just my few cents , (( if im gonna be pissed on for this , dont care ,Im to old to care..))
Per did a great job with that car... just the same two old complainers :) Amazing restore, we all know it, Jay and Per know it also.
Same old non-understander. Obviously, some people here have a problem to read. I posted clearly I'm all for upgrades (I'm runnig Wilwood discs on
all four corners for longer than most people here own their cars, all reversible) It is just the faking of components and possible damage to
unique OE parts that I do not like. Why put an alternator into a generator? Again, I hate faking and pretending.
This is just for the car-show type of old car owners.
I love driving, the performance and looks of these cars and I'm not the car-show type of person who pretends to run OE components. Got it?
Posted 2019-06-07 10:34 AM (#583064 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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So your for upgrades! great then stop bitching
what don't you understand about "the parts don't exist"? So he either fills in the blanks or the car doesn't run with FI parts.
He wanted to restore the FI car with as much original parts as he could... Its not fake or pretending, the original parts DIDNT WORK and DONT EXIST.
If Chrysler recalled the car that quickly and stopped production that fast obviously they didn't test the darn thing. Go talk to Bert Bowencamp, Chrysler was run ragged in 1957, since the 57s were the 58 models... they bumped up production one full year with everything new, they were screwed, they shut down the line for a month it was that bad. So no I doubt the system ever truly worked.
Harming an intake manifold? Really? Instead it should sit on a shelf for decades collecting dust because you don't want it working on a car?
Of course you complainers will always complain but that car is certainly not fake or pretending, its the real deal, restored as much as could be to be a true FI car.
Posted 2019-06-07 1:30 PM (#583068 - in reply to #583067) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Imperial, Chrysler, and Desotos engage the starter by pushing the N button. You still have to turn the key to the Run position of the switch. The Plymouths and Dodges engage the starter by turning the key. Subtle difference.
There was some editing taking place in the video at that point, and they may have filmed Jay turning the key but not pushing the shifter.
Posted 2019-06-07 4:00 PM (#583076 - in reply to #583068) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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How funny, my youtube feed had this recommended video, so I let it play. And wouldn't ya know, they discuss the Chrysler starting procedure. And this vid was just published yesterday!
Posted 2019-06-07 5:53 PM (#583079 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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I want to build an electrojector system too. Those intakes are $5000 or so. I am looking for a 2X2 intake for a 392, 350/361, or Desoto hemi. The 2 barrel throttle bodies are out there, just have to find a matching set. I like the chromed fancy trim/covers made for the brochures. I hear Bosch bought the designs in the '60's. I believe a mega squirt harness/box/program can be adapted to two 2 barrel throttle bodies. Those emblems would be fantastic to reproduce; The script part was on ebay for a while for over a grand. I wonder how long, wide and thick the script and gold 'X' emblem parts are.
Posted 2019-06-07 6:44 PM (#583082 - in reply to #583064) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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mikes2nd - 2019-06-07 10:34 AM
So your for upgrades! great then stop bitching
what don't you understand about "the parts don't exist"? So he either fills in the blanks or the car doesn't run with FI parts.
He wanted to restore the FI car with as much original parts as he could... Its not fake or pretending, the original parts DIDNT WORK and DONT EXIST.
Of course you complainers will always complain but that car is certainly not fake or pretending, its the real deal, restored as much as could be to be a true FI car.
Nobody is "bitching", "wining", or "complainig". I just stated my opinion. Again, it just makes no sense, if the actual system is new,
not to use a new better breathing intake manifold as well, except he wants to PRETEND the OE system is there and working.
It is called logical thinking. Using only the OE intake and throttle body is NOT "restoring" the system. Is that hard to understand?
I know you are a progressive liberal, so you don't allow any opinions except yours and you pretend things that are not there.
And as all liberals, you have a problem with cognitive functions and a hidden alternator in a generator housing is not faking or
pretending for you and that is also the reason that you believe Chrysler sold cars that "never worked" to customers
Posted 2019-06-07 7:20 PM (#583083 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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"I do not doubt that the OE system was troublesome BUT after all, they ok'ed it after rigorous testing (Chrysler was known for that).
So at least one or two systems must have been working troublefree. This proves a functional OE EFI IS possible and that makes me think
the basic system could be improved once the bugs are pinpointed. "
Precisely. At least one other person gets it! There's no way Chrysler woulda released those cars if the system didn't start and run well. My guess is the system simply wasn't reliable and had issues related to temperature extremes, etc. Those issues could be addressed given today's advances without tossing it all out and using a modern EFI system.
I'll say it again...is the car awesome? Sure. Would it be a quantum jump in awesomeness if it ran the original fuel injection system? Of course. As it sits, the car is only nominally more interesting than ANY 300D that you converted to EFI.
Posted 2019-06-07 7:32 PM (#583084 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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yes your whining, bitching and attacking the guy... oh he's fake!!, he pretending!! also you ignore the fact that the parts DON'T EXIST...
OH my god he's pretending its a generator... he never said it was the OE system(he said it was like the original system if you upgraded it with a modern system), so when you call him a liar/fake/pretend, that's an attack. who gives a sh*t about a generator? really a generator? hah
yes the oe system didn't work and never really did... its why the 21 cars were quickly recalled and ill bet they were at the dealer broke anyways... and replaced the non functional FI system with carbs
Posted 2019-06-07 7:40 PM (#583085 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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hah you guys think these cars got rigorous testing, you have no clue. Chrysler was flying by the seat of their pants in 57... the cars leaked like a sieve... zero rust proofing..
Ill guarantee that Bosch and Chrysler were like roll the dice with the FI and failed...
go do your own research.
They said get the line rolling, f testing the 57's, well fix em after the sale at the dealer and along the line. they would shut the line down to fix things, the dealers were losing their minds due to the issues.
Posted 2019-06-07 9:21 PM (#583088 - in reply to #583085) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Here are some anecdotes that show the EFI cars ran terribly the day they were built.
Burton Bouwkamp on the 300D's fuel injection
We built about 20 Chrysler 300s with the Bendix Fuel Injection System and sold one to Carl Kiekhaefer, who picked it up at the Jefferson Plant and drove it back to Fon du Lac, Wisconsin. It was a cold winter day when he picked it up.
The next day, Carl called and said he didn’t want the car because he only got about 10 MPG, so I had to send Gene Carr to Wisconsin to retrieve the car. No money changed hands because Carl hadn’t paid for it yet. (We had a similar experience with him on a Ghia Imperial Limousine. Carl did not know that the front seat in the Limo was not adjustable, and after he got to Wisconsin he told us to pick it up because it did not have enough driver legroom).
I got to know Carl very well because Bob Rodger had designated me as his technical contact at the Chrysler Division. After retiring, I bought and read the book Too Much Kiekhaefer; unfortunately, there is only one chapter about car racing but the book does catch the flavor of his personality. He was a talented and capable tyrant! I remember trading CK stories with NASCAR stars Buck Baker, Tim Flock, and Fonty Flock. They drove for CK and saw him in the same light. He was “my most unforgettable person.”
We sold another Chrysler 300 with fuel injection to Larry Elgart (Les Elgart’s brother). They both were bandleaders, but Les was the better known (contemporaries with Les Brown, Benny Goodman et al). Larry was so dissatisfied with the way that the engine ran that he told us that he was going to drive the car right through the showroom window of the Chrysler Manhattan Company in New York — that is, if he could get it running well enough and get enough speed to do it.
At owner request, we converted these fuel injected cars to carburetors, and refunded the premium they paid for fuel injection.
Posted 2019-06-07 9:25 PM (#583090 - in reply to #583084) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Another anecdote indicating the EFI cars were among the first 1958 cars produced by each marque. Just thought it was interesting.
A prominent Chrysler historian wrote, “I was surprised to find something like 15 Plymouths in the first 2,000 built with fuel injection. Not only that, they were built and shipped without a lot of delay, so they were running. All were Furys except one Belvedere two-door hardtop. Two of the first ten or so Dodges were fuel injected also, along with the first two or three DeSotos [and later Chrysler 300Ds]."
Posted 2019-06-07 10:08 PM (#583094 - in reply to #583091) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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That's the problem with the world now...everyone gets their feelings hurt...and everyone else enables it.
No one is attacking the car or it's human companion. Note how I'm not using the term 'owner' as that word has clearly racial implications. We're just making note of the fact that the car is not 'really' 1958 fuel injected.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you're gonna assign status to it for being an original fuel injected car, then it should be an original fuel injected car. Not a car that used to have fuel injection but now has the same injection system as a 2005 Volkswagen.
Let's look at a 1958 fuelie Corvette. If you showed up at Bloomington with one that was all original except you had converted it to a 2005 Volkswagen EFI system, every judge and every Corvette dude in the room would barf all over it.
Carl K owned the car one day and returned it? Sounds to me like 'executive privilege'. The average person, a car guy no less, would have simply taken the car to a dealer and asked them to fix it. Who really returns a car after one day? Someone who didn't really want it in the first place.
It's non-sensical to state that Chrysler did minimal R&D before releasing the cars to the public. The time and effort it took to develop those parts would have been significant. No one half-asses that sort of thing. More likely, they realized there was a limited market and the technical challenges were too great for the time to justify continued work. They also dropped the turbine car program - and it was hardly half-assed either. Plus, let's not forget Chrysler was in a slump by mid 1958 and I'm sure the climate within the company didn't support money being tossed at a complex issue that would result in 40 cars a year being sold. It was easier to walk away from it all.
Posted 2019-06-08 12:25 AM (#583099 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Carl K was executive privileged... its why he got one and it didn't work so he promptly got rid of it because he could and he probably had many with the carbs
Yes your saying Per is a fake, a fraudster(60 fury has "edited" all his posts hmm?)... That car did roll off the line(I think this was a special line) but a line none the less as a FI car... SO ITS A FI car!
No its not non-sensical... Are you saying Burt is a liar now? THE GUY WAS THERE for f sake... In 57-58 things were not vetted, they didnt have time, they wanted a FI car, they failed utterly.
Your own sentence agrees with me(technical challenges were too great for the time to justify continued work)… EXACTLY it wasn't vetted and wasn't worth it trying to get it working, they rolled the dice and let her rip and failed. If the system was vetted like you claim you just kicked your own arse? so which is it? Not vetted or they didn't spend the time/energy to get it working? ok
Yes Chrysler 1958 FI cars were a failure, Per made his a success and one that could actually run and drive with upgraded parts that were the problem/forever missing. He isn't claiming its 100% OE(regardless if you accuse him of saying it was), never did, whos cars on the road are "real" then, exactly what it was rolling off the line? Ill guarantee there isn't one "real" FWL car on the road then...
the 58 Fuelie corvette worked and people know they exist because GM didnt squash them... Chrysler squashed the FI program because it didn't work, with modern technology! it can be upgraded to work and is an interesting piece of history back on the road.
The Turbine car was probably vetted, because the system actually worked... I like argueing as much as the next guy, but you guys are being twits claiming "OHHHHH ITS NOT A REAL FI CAR!"... stop it, its insulting all our intelligence and just making yourselfs look stupid. Hate on upgrades/mods whatever, but this was imho a great upgrade in restoring a true FI car as much as it could be to get it back on the road with many of the original FI parts.
Posted 2019-06-08 6:59 AM (#583110 - in reply to #583084) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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mikes2nd - 2019-06-07 7:32 PM
yes your whining, bitching and attacking the guy... oh he's fake!!, he pretending!! also you ignore the fact that the parts DON'T EXIST...
OH my god he's pretending its a generator... he never said it was the OE system(he said it was like the original system if you upgraded it with a modern system), so when you call him a liar/fake/pretend, that's an attack.
Are you aware that everything that has been posted can be read again and again? So it makes no sense to post lies. I never called the owner a liar or the other things,
but I call you a liar, because you are lying, obvious for everyone
The only person who is whining is you. Like all liberals you can't cope with other peoples opinions and want to shut them down. You are a drama queen and cry baby. You are not god, learn to live with it.
Again, I just posted my opinions and explained clearly why. This is a discussion board.
Please stop attacking other people for posting their opinions. Thank you.
Posted 2019-06-08 8:49 AM (#583112 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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There have been 1-2 of these former fuel injecting cars for sale for awhile. They weren't overly expensive. If you want one restored that way, buy it and do it. They haven't been hard to acquire, but nobody did anything with them. At least this allows people to know that a FI car existed within Chrysler in 1958. The car just got exposed to a ton of people. I get wishing it was original, but that seems impossible these days to accomplish.
Posted 2019-06-08 11:27 AM (#583120 - in reply to #583110) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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1960fury - 2019-06-08 6:59 AM Thank you.
Keep editing your posts... I guess i have to quote everything you post if were in a interenet fight.
You did call him a fake and saying pretend blah, blah. nice try though. We all know he wasnt lying or pretending anything that wasnt 100% true about his vehicle.
You claim he's trying to pass is it off as 100% Original, he never did. I never attacked you, i simply stated you calling him a liar/fake isnt cool. Im glad you edited your posts. Im done
Posted 2019-06-08 10:05 PM (#583133 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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The simple fact stands - it has a hollow ring to it when you fluff up the car because it was a FI car when it no longer runs the very system that made the car special.
The system didn't work in 1958? So what if it did or didn't? This is 2019 and it's reasonable an original system could be made to work with some effort and understanding.
Like the turbine car, the system wasn't a failure. You can be sure Chrysler learned a bunch from the experience. Just like the learned the turbine had limitations that proved it to be unfeasible, same for the injection. If they hadn't done it...they never woulda learned.
Posted 2019-06-09 9:12 AM (#583140 - in reply to #583120) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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mikes2nd - 2019-06-08 11:27 AM
1960fury - 2019-06-08 6:59 AM Thank you.
Keep editing your posts... I guess i have to quote everything you post if were in a interenet fight.
You did call him a fake and saying pretend blah, blah. nice try though. We all know he wasnt lying or pretending anything that wasnt 100% true about his vehicle.
You claim he's trying to pass is it off as 100% Original, he never did. I never attacked you, i simply stated you calling him a liar/fake isnt cool. Im glad you edited your posts. Im done
You are a liar. I did edit my post simply to rearange the layout (and maybe a few typos) as you needed to scroll from left to right to read my messages.
It is something you see after you posted and it is clearly visible WHEN I edited my messages, shortly after I posted them and long before you posted that I call the D owner a liar.
My last post (edit) before you claimed I was calling the guy a liar was made 6:55 PM. Your post stating I was calling the guy a liar was made 7:32 PM.
Proof that you are lying.
How does it feel to be exposed as a liar in public?
I never called the owner of the D a fake and a liar, cry baby. Is that all you can resort to? After running out of arguments
posting lies? You are pitiful being. I simply posted my opinion and I stand to what I said, as I just stated facts.
It was you drama queen who started the whining and crying, as usual.
Posted 2019-06-09 9:20 AM (#583141 - in reply to #583133) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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GregCon - 2019-06-08 10:05 PM
The simple fact stands - it has a hollow ring to it when you fluff up the car because it was a FI car when it no longer runs the very system that made the car special.
The system didn't work in 1958? So what if it did or didn't? This is 2019 and it's reasonable an original system could be made to work with some effort and understanding.
Exactly, but you need to be technically minded to understand. Obvously that is the problem. It is amazing how many automobile "engineers" and "experts" we have here. They all repeat only hearsay, yet claim to be more knowing and capable than the Chrysler engineers.
Posted 2019-06-09 12:46 PM (#583153 - in reply to #583152) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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I'm not sure why this has devolved, but I got no beef with any of ya. I love the car and that it has an EFI system that uses original hardware with functional electronics on it.
Posted 2019-06-09 3:22 PM (#583162 - in reply to #583161) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
Location: Parts Unknown
Henry Ford "painted" his 1915-25 cars with Gilsonite. Model T restorations
today are faked with modern paint. Disgusting fraud. What has the world
come to ?
Posted 2019-06-09 3:25 PM (#583163 - in reply to #583162) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
Location: Parts Unknown
Anyone putting radial tires on a finned car should be skinned with a belt sander
and placed under a vinegar drip. Why this isn't considered a crime against humanity,
I do not know. Let's get serious here, people !
Anyone putting radial tires on a finned car should be skinned with a belt sander
and placed under a vinegar drip. Why this isn't considered a crime against humanity,
I do not know. Let's get serious here, people !
That's actually what I'd do to anyone trying to shame me into dropping meaningful dollars into bias plys.
I can't remember just what I dropped for 'em in 1991, but I gave 'em a shot on my '57 Lincoln Premiere 2-door hardtop. $#!t was like trying to teach a pig to walk a tightrope - was near impossible to drive on the freeway. Got rid of 'em a few weeks later.
And, with the fools who are on the streets these days, there's a few realities of present day life that need to be acknowledged in everyday driving of these cars: Pavement isn't like it was in 1958 - stopping power needs to be more precise and dependable, same with ignition and acceleration. Not to mention, being in Arizona, air conditioning is an absolute necessity - whether the car was originally built with it or not.
Also, living in Arizona, I've got to laugh at people who are purist enough to look for original, period factory stamped radiator hoses when, where I live, though the cars may stay rust free, rubber/weatherstripping etc. are the first things to go. Hell - you're lucky if you get 2 good years out of your battery.....
Posted 2019-06-10 2:05 PM (#583217 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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If your Lincoln handled that poorly the front suspension and steering linkage was probably worn and it needed an alignment. Granted, radial tires do improve and mask a worn out front end, but when everything in the front end is tight the cars handled and rode surprisingly well with bias ply's. I should know, I own a 1958 Coronet with new Super Cushions, and a mint original 28,000 mile 1963 Impala that runs, handles and rides like a dream with bias plys.
Posted 2019-06-10 2:25 PM (#583218 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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It's not the front suspension that is at fault. I've experienced the issue as well. There are 2 problems with running modern bias plys. First is the new tires aren't nearly as good as the old ones were. Secondly, a lot of these cars are running with zero caster or even negative caster. Bias plys are much harder to control without a decent amount of caster. Add 1.5 to 2 degrees of caster, and they become much more tolerable.....but still not as stable as radials.
Posted 2019-06-10 2:55 PM (#583219 - in reply to #583152) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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mikes2nd - 2019-06-09 12:40 PM
Your words NOT MINE... You should go back and finish your editing...
Pretend
VERB
speak and act so as to make it appear that something is the case when in fact it is not.
"I closed my eyes and pretended I was asleep"
Faking
VERB
faking (present participle)
forge or counterfeit (something).
"the woman faked her spouse's signature"
Interesting, I never received an english lesson from someone who does not know the difference between "your" and "you're". My words? No, just yours.
Pretending is not lying. By putting the alternator in a generator housing, for instance, the owner of the D is pretending he runs
a generator but he is not lying about it. Nothing wrong with that. Someone who drives a "sleeper" isn't "lying" either.
Pretending is an entirely different thing, just like faking. Lying is saying or writing knowingly the untruth, and that is what you did.
Again:
1960fury - 2019-06-09 9:12 AM
My last post (edit) before you claimed I was calling the guy a liar was made 6:55 PM. Your post stating I was calling the guy a liar was made 7:32 PM.
Proof that you are lying.
How does it feel to be exposed as a liar in public?
Posted 2019-06-10 3:19 PM (#583226 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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OK, THIS IS NOT FUN ANY MORE!!! REALLY?? SOME PEOPLE NEED TO GROW UP! I had to change my settings so my phone wouldn't get blown up with this juvenile BS...
Posted 2019-06-10 8:00 PM (#583249 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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I doubt anyone on this site realizes that at least two of these fuel injected 58 Mopars are being restored currently, one being a 300D in California and will run with the original injection components. The owners are not public with these projects due to the rarity and value of the cars.
I certainly hope these owners/restorers do not frequent this site and read the embarassing juvenile banter on this thread. I doubt they would ever disclose anything on here in the future due to the content of this thread.
Posted 2019-06-10 10:39 PM (#583262 - in reply to #583219) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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1960fury - 2019-06-10 2:55 PM Interesting, I never received an english lesson from someone who does not know the difference between "your" and "you're". My words? No, just yours.
Posted 2019-06-11 5:33 PM (#583295 - in reply to #583163) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Doctor DeSoto - 2019-06-09 3:25 PM
Anyone putting radial tires on a finned car should be skinned with a belt sander
and placed under a vinegar drip. Why this isn't considered a crime against humanity,
I do not know. Let's get serious here, people !
I agree
Despite that I can't understand the childish discussion going on.
The 300D got restored with some mods that I wouldn't have done personally either.
But it is owned by Per Blixt and he is the only one who has to like it.
No man with nice car needs to be justified.
Being small minded or self-opinionated isn't helpful for people who enjoy similar cars.
If your Lincoln handled that poorly the front suspension and steering linkage was probably worn and it needed an alignment. Granted, radial tires do improve and mask a worn out front end, but when everything in the front end is tight the cars handled and rode surprisingly well with bias ply's. I should know, I own a 1958 Coronet with new Super Cushions, and a mint original 28,000 mile 1963 Impala that runs, handles and rides like a dream with bias plys.
I had the front end rebuilt prior to making it a daily driver - about 9 months before trying bias plys - aligned with a rebuilt steering box and straight (no) canter. Radials first (worn - the ones that were on the car when I bought it), then bias plys, then back to radials - all on the original-to-the-car steelies. If I know the car is mechanically sound (save for the under-exercised engine, it was), steering (including front suspension) and brakes are always first to get shaped up if they need it (far as brakes, I kept the drums and had a dual master installed - I wasn't about to drive a near 5,000 pound car with a single master that looked, roughly, the size of a thimble).
The result of the bias plys? Sloppy handling with no real sure foot and it seemed like they picked up every stray groove in the pavement and wanted to follow it. I put the radials (new) back on and that '57 Lincoln drove and handled so smooth, I was popped (pulled over) early one morning in the fall of 1991 doing 116 mph thinking I was doing 80 (one problem with the original engine swap - for another, stock 368 V-8 and Cruise-O-Matic - back in May, 1991 was that the dang speedo cable kept slipping out of the trans).
They were 235/75R15 slim whites and looked a bit barren, but I'll be darned if they didn't make that '57 into a sure-footed two-fingered steerer that didn't sway and lurch all over hell.....
Posted 2019-06-11 10:24 PM (#583317 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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I doubt Chrysler had really completed ALL necessary testing on these units, there are often unforeseen issues. Sometimes there are known issues and they are covered up or ignored instead of addressed, I wouldn't put much stock in car companies (or any large corporation) doing the right thing. How often are cars recalled today? How often are there issues with cars that even get people killed? GM ignition switches. Ford fuel tanks. Toyota floor mats/accelerator pedals. VW and Fiat Chrysler have both had diesel emission scandals. Trusting that the company did the right thing is definitely the wrong approach. Chrysler messed up and they pulled the plug before the problem got any bigger.
Posted 2019-06-12 9:13 AM (#583326 - in reply to #582859) Subject: RE: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
Location: North Australia
This has become my favorite thread!
The highlights are......
Mike and Sid's sparring is teaching me some important Chinglish. Very important for Australians!
Doc's technical detail the modern reproduction plastic emblems, crappy modern paint and the importance of OEM tire air is a surprise!
Arizona Mike, thanks for kicking the thread off and the info on the Lincoln handling like a pig with Bias plys,
All valuable info!
Seriously though, it is a very neat car to see in a video, Per did a good job bringing this car back from the dead, irrespective of opinions otherwise.
Everyone needs to calm the F#(k down, and we need to get the moderators to post up a hurt feelings form somewhere. Some good ones here......
Posted 2019-06-12 9:51 AM (#583330 - in reply to #583308) Subject: RE: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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moparsteve - 2019-06-11 7:21 PM
ALLRIGHT MAN STOP IT JUST EVERYONE STOP THIS BITCHING AND INSULTING EVERYONE OKAY?
IS MODERATEOR WATCHING THIS?
It is always interesting to see all the "good people" speak up suddenly, after this thing is long settled to show everyone how reasonable they are and trying to spark it up again. Again, this is settled, therefore your messages are pointless and your intentions^ are obvious.
Those who are not the victims of denunciation should stfu.
In my opinion calling a man a liar is a big offence. If someone accuses me of things I didn't do, I act allergic to it and I will defend myself. This has something to do with the history of this forum.
Posted 2019-06-13 8:25 AM (#583372 - in reply to #583370) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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After mulling this over a bit...it occurs to me that the reason some don't think it's a big deal that the car does not run the OEM FI system is....they don't understand anything about FI systems.
It's kinda like when you ask a girl what kind of engine her Mustang has and she says "I don't know. I just put gas in it!"
It's like meeting a good looking girl in the rainbow part of town and not caring what she's packing under her beltline. What's does it matter if she's hot?
For those who understand about things that go on under the hood, it's easy to see why using a Volkswagen EFI in lieu of a 1958 Chrysler system would make a big difference in the authenticity of the car. It's not air in the tires or a WalMart battery, boys. It's a major difference.
Posted 2019-06-13 11:39 PM (#583406 - in reply to #582859) Subject: RE: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Chrysler Engineering evaluation report on the Bendix Electrojector system. Sources indicate the report--dated 1960--was submitted in response to the feasibility of using the system on the ram induction manifolds. Might clear up some conceptions voiced on another post.
Posted 2019-06-14 1:41 AM (#583411 - in reply to #583406) Subject: RE: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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skyhawk - 2019-06-13 8:39 PM
Chrysler Engineering evaluation report on the Bendix Electrojector system. Sources indicate the report--dated 1960--was submitted in response to the feasibility of using the system on the ram induction manifolds. Might clear up some conceptions voiced on another post.
12 pages so I didn't attach it.
Posted 2019-06-14 12:15 PM (#583428 - in reply to #583372) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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GregCon - 2019-06-13 7:25 AM
After mulling this over a bit...it occurs to me that the reason some don't think it's a big deal that the car does not run the OEM FI system is....they don't understand anything about FI systems.
I'm not taking that comment personally, but repeating the argument that this car is running "2005 Volkswagen" fuel injection is terribly flawed. Here's my take on it.
The modern VW EFI does not use a return style fuel system; it utilizes direct injection, not port injection; it uses distributorless ignition; the ignition and injector pulses are timed by hall effect sensors on the crank and cam(s); and most importantly, it uses exhaust gas sensors for real time system feedback on the operation of the engine, injection, and catalyst.
For the sake of accuracy, the Bendix EFI architecture encompasses nearly all the required mechanical hardware and electronic sensors that make up a 1990s-era EFI system. It uses individual port injectors; it has a return style fuel system; sensors measure manifold vacuum, throttle position, and air intake temperature; the necessary fuel curve is inferred by a calibrated system of sensors and preprogrammed electronics that control injector pulse width. The key differences are that the "modern" EFI systems utilize exhaust gas sensors, and the computers control ignition timing -- and I don't see evidence that Per implemented a computer controlled ignition here. It appears to be a standard Hemi distributor with vacuum advance (ie - not computer controlled). I assume Per is using a wideband O2 and some kind of modern crank triggering for the EFI in lieu of a "second distributor" (which does the same basic job of determining crankshaft position) to control injector timing. But that is still a far cry from inferring he cobbled together a bunch of junkyard EFI parts to get the car on the road. The 1958 Electrojector design was fundamentally sound, but Per was right to use the 1958 parts that do work, and skip the 1958 technology that doomed the project (faulty sensors, decaying electronics, leaky and mismatched injectors).
From reading the 1960 report, it's clear the one thing the Electrojector did not have - that directly led to its failure - was the lack of a feedback system to allow the computer to monitor the A/F ratio and compensate as necessary. Instead, Chrysler tuned the system for high engine speed enrichment only, which means the car ran like crap in every other use case and fuel economy was abysmal. It's right there in the report - the program was cancelled because the cars never performed satisfactorily. "It is recommended that no future development of the "Electrojector" system be undertaken" is not vague and does not indicate the engineers reviewing the project had any confidence that they could make it work within the technological constraints of the time.
Bosch designed the first oxygen sensor in the 1960s and transformed all of the Electrojector concepts into a successful reality.
Posted 2019-06-14 4:01 PM (#583444 - in reply to #583428) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
Location: Parts Unknown
This whole argument is invalid. The car is restored using new thread material in the upholstery,
the paints made of materials not used in the original formulas, as mentioned before, it rides on
still-not-invented radial tires, filled with air 60+ years newer than the car. No mention is made,
but I am betting the seals and rubber are all made of non-EOM spec materials. This car is a total
fraud and someone needs a spanking.
Posted 2019-06-18 10:26 AM (#583633 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Jeez. It's REASONABLE to use modern air in the tires, and paint as well. But then, no one is bragging that the car has original paint, are they? They're bragging that it's a fuel injection car.
Let's see a show of hands....who would rally around a guy who showed up at a car show with an original 1968 Hemi Roadrunner that - because the 426 Hemi is expensive and hard to find parts for and often ran poorly if not in tune - he had installed an LS1 Chevy engine? He'd walk around and brag about it being an original Hemi car, and you'd go nuts and say what a great job he did and how much it didn't matter that he'd used a non-original, non-Mopar engine? I don't think so.
Posted 2019-06-18 10:36 AM (#583635 - in reply to #583633) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Greg: Your sarcasm detection meter is broken Greg. Doc's "modern air" was made tongue in cheek, to smarten us up and make us realize that we were being stupid about the fuel injection issue.
What Per did with the OE intake manifold and throttle bodies is commendable and in no way is anything like your LS1 in a Hemi Roadrunner analogy.
Posted 2019-06-18 11:07 AM (#583636 - in reply to #583633) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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That would be a perfectly valid comparison if:
- they only installed 35 total Hemi engines into cars because the Hemi engine design was such an engineering debacle that they all failed, they were all recalled, the factory deemed them unworthy of further development, and the embarrassing project was buried forever
and,
- the restorer had spent years gathering scraps and remnants of almost-nonexistent recalled Hemi engine parts, addressed the fatal flaws with modern parts that solve the original engineering shortcomings, and then installed this now-functional Hemi engine into his 1-of-21 built, recalled, and fortunate-to-still-exist-at-all factory Hemi engined RR
Which is pretty much exactly the same thing as slapping a junkyard Silverado engine into a factory Hemi car. LOL. I think we're off in the weeds now. Tell you what, I'll buy the first round of beers.
Posted 2019-06-18 1:17 PM (#583644 - in reply to #583641) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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No, no, no. The point being that the FI system on the car now is BARELY the same as they sent it out the door with. The simple - unavoidable - fact that it has a computer buries it. It runs original throttle bodies and intake - so what? Those are very basic and 'dumb' pieces. It's no challenge to use them. A COMPUTER for God's sake. The anithesis of what a 1950's car is all about.
You don't get to brag about a feature of a car when it's not there. At best, it becomes a 'point of interest'. Kinda like 'Oh, this car was bought by Elvis Presley's road manager and it's almost certain Elvis road in it at some point because, you know, they were very close friends."
"That's an awesome 300! And I see it has fuel injection emblems?"
"Why thank you. Well....to be honest, it WAS an original FI car but there was no way for me to make all that stuff work - even if I could still find it - so I just adapted a modern engine's system to this car. You know, the same thing a million other hot rodders have done since the 1990's when computer controller EFI systems were introduced to the world. Nothing remarkable. You see it on every single episode of Overhaulin'. Now, if I were running the original fuel injection system - that would be something to write home about. Someday, someone will make an original system work and he'll be Cat Daddy of FL cars. But not me."
"Yes, that is interesting, common, and I'm sure it makes the car run well. (Yaaaawwn) Oh, do you think Elvis ever rode in this car?"
Posted 2019-06-18 1:53 PM (#583647 - in reply to #583636) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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57burb - 2019-06-18 9:07 AM
That would be a perfectly valid comparison if:
- they only installed 35 total Hemi engines into cars because the Hemi engine design was such an engineering debacle that they all failed, they were all recalled, the factory deemed them unworthy of further development, and the embarrassing project was buried forever
and,
- the restorer had spent years gathering scraps and remnants of almost-nonexistent recalled Hemi engine parts, addressed the fatal flaws with modern parts that solve the original engineering shortcomings, and then installed this now-functional Hemi engine into his 1-of-21 built, recalled, and fortunate-to-still-exist-at-all factory Hemi engined RR
Which is pretty much exactly the same thing as slapping a junkyard Silverado engine into a factory Hemi car. LOL. I think we're off in the weeds now. Tell you what, I'll buy the first round of beers.
Couldn't have said it better myself. My shipping address for the beer is.....
Posted 2019-06-18 2:42 PM (#583649 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Greg, it is clear you are not happy with the new computer. For others of us, the new computer is how we would have rebuilt it because even if you were able to find the original controller (which really isn't likely), and you were able to replace all the caps & resistors with new versions that work better, and you were able to get everything tuned just as it ideally would have been, it still wouldn't live up to my expectations of a good running fuel injection system. Without an oxygen sensor, you are doomed to have it run like crap. So I would have built it just like he did. If I had all the original stuff available, I would save it until I was ready to sell the car off to a museum and install it all onto it. Then it would be good enough to drive around the museum property here and there and all the purists would wet their pants over it. But I wouldn't like it. I get it that you would have liked it better that way. That's fine. Let's move on.
Posted 2019-06-18 3:41 PM (#583653 - in reply to #583644) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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GregCon - 2019-06-18 12:17 PM
No, no, no. The point being that the FI system on the car now is BARELY the same as they sent it out the door with. The simple - unavoidable - fact that it has a computer buries it. It runs original throttle bodies and intake - so what? Those are very basic and 'dumb' pieces. It's no challenge to use them. A COMPUTER for God's sake. The anithesis of what a 1950's car is all about.
Uh...
Surely you are aware that the "Electro" part of "Electrojector" means that this was an electronic fuel injection system, right?
That means it always used a (gasp) electronic computer to output injector pulses by performing calculations against data input from sensors.
And that means it is fundamentally a different type of fuel delivery system than the more common 1950s-era mechanical fuel injection systems that do not need a computer to run, such as GM's Rochester Ramjet or a Hilborn Injector.
Posted 2019-06-18 4:45 PM (#583656 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Yes, I'm aware of that...but much like an abacus is a computer, there is a world of difference between the very, very rudimentary control used in 1958 and the digital computer of today. I use the term 'computer' thusly to describe the modern, digital, mega-memory device we all know. The device that has had millions of dollars of R&D and many decades of advancement behind it....all done by others.
The lack of an O2 sensor? Sure, that makes a difference but don't overlook that many, many cars were sold in the 90's without closed loop capability. Many aftermarket systems sold to the hot rodding world, which were based on OEM systems, similarly lacked closed loop feedback ability. But they ran quite well.
I'd cut the car a lot of slack if the computer EFI system it uses were innovative...but it's not. It's simply the same system millions of cars use nowadays. It represents the EASIEST way out. It's like bragging that you are able to travel from New York to LA in only 3 hours on horseback as long as the horse is in a cargo plane.
As I've said, it's a lovely car and I'd be proud to won it and drive it. I just wouldn't stick my chest out too far over the fuel and spark delivery setup.
Posted 2019-06-18 5:05 PM (#583661 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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yeah he needs to spend another 15k on the efi system... that would make it a true EFI car and not a pretend fake one?... yeeesh do you guys read what you write?
"Well that efi system is 10$ and im he got the original intake and all those other parts for a can of soup"... yeah im sure it was all a couple fivers...
Mike and Sid's sparring is teaching me some important Chinglish. Very important for Australians!
Doc's technical detail the modern reproduction plastic emblems, crappy modern paint and the importance of OEM tire air is a surprise!
Arizona Mike, thanks for kicking the thread off and the info on the Lincoln handling like a pig with Bias plys,
All valuable info!
Seriously though, it is a very neat car to see in a video, Per did a good job bringing this car back from the dead, irrespective of opinions otherwise.
Everyone needs to calm the F#(k down, and we need to get the moderators to post up a hurt feelings form somewhere. Some good ones here......
You're very welcome on both counts - it was yours truly who actually started the thread and spoke of 5,000 pounds of faded white, drunken swine trying in vain to keep themselves on the straight and narrow.
The Lincoln handled poorly because of the non-original air in the tires ... Duh !
I would've, but it's a bit of a drive to Cincinnati - couldn't get dealer-approved compressed air and stem caps.
Lost the doggone warranty, too. Turned the interior upside down trying to find it - all I came up with was an oil change receipt from May, 1960 from under the back seat. Current mileage: 1,962. Recommended service: 4,962.
Almost as good as finding the build sheet, though.....
Posted 2019-06-19 1:08 AM (#583687 - in reply to #583679) Subject: RE: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
Location: Parts Unknown
Ray's Auto Wrecking had the most dramatic crusher I ever saw in an old school
wrecking yard. Ray welded up a 40 foot H-frame boom arm and poured several
tons of concrete into a 2-3 foot thick pad that made up the head end. It cranked
skyward on a pivot, much like the boom arm on an old school tow truck, and when
released, slammed down into a mating "pocket", comprised of an equally massive
concrete pad, with 1" thick steel walls projecting up about 6' from the pad.
When Ray got to crushing, he'd raise the boom, poke a car into this "pocket", and
let the boom drop. The car was now about 12" tall. If it took a second whack, he'd
just raise up the boom and drop it again.
Clearly, Jay Leno needs to get one of these set up and crush out all these bogus
cars he's got hanging around. Make room for only pure cars, with OEM air in the
tires.
Posted 2019-06-19 1:33 AM (#583690 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Does anyone realize that there exists a 1958 Desoto Fireflite convertible, running the original restored fuel injection system? It was completed in 2004 by Tom White and made the rounds at Chrysler events before being sold several years ago. Tom is an electrical engineer and spent quite a bit of time researching how the system operated before the rebuild.
Posted 2019-06-19 2:52 AM (#583693 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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well yeah I could see someone who has a complete system trying to get it working.
IF you had the original complete system that would be awesome. It will run like crap but hey its original. Per spent years and ill bet thousands just finding the bits he could.
Posted 2019-06-19 8:28 AM (#583700 - in reply to #583690) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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58coronet - 2019-06-19 1:33 AM
Does anyone realize that there exists a 1958 Desoto Fireflite convertible, running the original restored fuel injection system? It was completed in 2004 by Tom White and made the rounds at Chrysler events before being sold several years ago. Tom is an electrical engineer and spent quite a bit of time researching how the system operated before the rebuild.
No, no, no all the "experts" here told us it is not possible. They sold these cars actually non running. They pushed them off the showroom floor and it is NOT possible to restore and improve the OE system. Hey, all these "experts" can't be wrong!
Posted 2019-06-19 9:19 AM (#583705 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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I'm not one of them, but I work with guys who could make an original system work. The sad truth is those guys are all 65+ years old and when they're gone, so will be their knowledge.
The real issue here is one of interest and money. It would take a lot of effort to assemble all the old drawings and information needed to understand what was produced, then more time and money and effort to reproduce it with better operation. To date, the Tom White Desoto is still the king by far.
Posted 2019-06-19 10:34 AM (#583709 - in reply to #583705) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
Location: Parts Unknown
In conversation with Tom during the time he was gatehring parts for the rebuild,
that Adventurer had long before parted ways with its F/I gear, and that he was
hunting up parts and updating the internal components from wax-and-paper wound
original stuff that was "unshielded", and thusly prone to external interference, to
modern, trouible-free parts. As I recall, Tom said neon signs, quite popular in the
50's, played real havoc on the electronics when the car would pass them.
Now, I have no knowledge of how this car was ultimately built, but Tom did reveal
his knowledge and intent, and a few years later the car was a reality in some form.
Wait till I reveal that I installed 906 heads and modern push rods on my Fireflite. I
can see the headlines now !
Posted 2019-06-19 10:57 AM (#583713 - in reply to #583709) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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That beautiful Adventurer is a museum piece. It gets started and idled across manicured grass on sunny days at car shows twice a year and back into its trailer. Even the Electrojector can pull that off.
Posted 2019-06-19 5:41 PM (#583733 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Exactly. Great running for a museum piece and everyone declares it the "King". Great, but you can't stand to drive the thing in reality. Whereas, Per's wife drives his car anywhere and under any weather condition. Electrical engineering is alive and well in America, Greg. I work with many people that could easily reverse engineer an original board and re-design it to work better if desired, and reproduce it. I could probably give it a good shot doing it myself. But what's the point in doing it beyond creating something for a museum trailer queen that will still have upgraded electronics? It would still be upgraded, not be original and still won't run well. The only thing original about it would be it's crappy performance. Why?? My ideal world would put a modern self-learning system inside the original style box with original looking connectors and have it working in closed-loop control. Yes the electronics are upgraded & non-original regardless of how you do it. I certainly wouldn't care as long as it works better.
Posted 2019-06-19 10:23 PM (#583747 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Really....does it matter if someone's wife can drive an FL car in the snow and rain? I'll go so far as to say anyone driving a 300D in pristine condition in those conditions...or even leaving it parked at a movie theater in nice weather - is showing questionable judgement.
Imagine the first car produced with a generator. The first car with the ability to create its own electricity! So you restore the car, and sitting under the hood is THE generator...the grandaddy of them all. You naturally brag about it, and lots of people at car shows marvel at it, and you proudly show them how it can power not only the car's ignition and single headlight, but also a Rockford Fosgate 400 watt amp and a massive bank of fog lamps. Well...that's no surprise, you tell the crowd, because you hollowed out the guts and replaced them all with a modern GM 230 amps alternator. Suddenly, not so impressive.
Again, the car is cool and I'm sure it runs great. But sorry, you don't get the bragging rights that go with running an early FI system. The point is not the have 'fuel injection'. Millions of cars have that. The point is to have THE fuel injection system of legend and lore.
Posted 2019-06-20 12:52 AM (#583753 - in reply to #583747) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
Location: Parts Unknown
Hollowed out the guts ? Maybe I missed something, but as Tom White explained
the system, and after watching the video of Per's car, "the guts" of what Tom called
"the brain box" were a series of wax-and-paper windings of some electrical nature
that controlled functions. By using modern versions of same-functioning parts, the
system gained the missing shielding that caused the original system problems, and
thusly, he was able to make the system work.
Now, if Per hit the wrecking year and adapted a VW F/I system to fit his 392, I'd
understand the issue with it being nothing like the original. But it seems to me, both
Tom and Per arrived at some balance of original parts and more reliable, newer tech
components, to get past the inadequacies of wax and paper tech level materials and
make their systems reliable.
At least, as I read it, neither system is that far from original. Did I miss something ?
Posted 2019-06-20 2:00 AM (#583756 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Tom's system is as you understand it. Per's is less original because he is using a new computer as the controller, with an oxygen sensor. I don't think that Per even has an original controller to play with.
Posted 2019-06-20 5:45 AM (#583757 - in reply to #583747) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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GregCon - 2019-06-19 10:23 PM
Really....does it matter if someone's wife can drive an FL car in the snow and rain? I'll go so far as to say anyone driving a 300D in pristine condition in those conditions...or even leaving it parked at a movie theater in nice weather - is showing questionable judgement.
you are just living in the wrong country.
Visit sweden during the summer and you can see letter cars parked outside no matter if it is a movie theater, restaurant or different parking lot for shopping.
Driving and using them is an important part of the hobby. At least in europe.
Posted 2019-06-20 7:57 AM (#583761 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Well....I don't think we want to wade into a discussion of Europe's many problems....but let me just say I have the utmost respect for the Swede's first rate work on FL cars. Here in the USA, if I lived in a sleepy farm town in Iowa or Kansas or Texas, I'd have no problem driving an FL year round. But in a big city, or even a medium sized city? No place for a 60 year old car that you can't buy parts for, is very easy to steal, and attracts fleas from the moment you leave your house. You're just begging for trouble. Even with modern fuel injection, an otherwise stock FL car has to be driven with a great deal of caution and really can't be left unattended for long.
Posted 2019-06-20 10:45 AM (#583767 - in reply to #583756) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
Location: Parts Unknown
Powerflite - 2019-06-20 11:00 PM
Tom's system is as you understand it. Per's is less original because he is using a new computer
as the controller, with an oxygen sensor. I don't think that Per even has an original controller to
play with.
=================================
So, all this argument, comparing Per's injection system to a 2012 VW is based on the thing
Tom called a "brain box" having modern electrical components (as does Tom's old car), but the
key difference being that Per's car's stuff is held in a non-original housing ???
.... the rest of the visual presentation is pretty much as one would have seen it in 1958 ???
What exactly are the differences between a 1958 Electrojector system and Per's reconstruction
BESIDES the hidden electronic components ???
Posted 2019-06-21 5:00 AM (#583829 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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dont know were all got the vw system from,??, its is BOSCH injektors , and they supply to a bunch of brands , even some Americans , Like bendix suplied to Chyrsler, ((its not owend by them or was) ,``but it did not work,``, why use Bosch , probebly because`` it works`` and can be hidden-inside org-look injektors ... Now i need more ``popcorn`` like a fellow on the tread say
Posted 2019-06-22 2:07 PM (#583868 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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I used the 2005 VW reference as a simple way to denote 'garden variety' system. I have no idea if he actually used VW parts. But...Bosch is one clue that leans that way.
The whole point being exactly what you are saying - it's a system that coulda been shipped out the door on any one of dozen cars makes. It's amazing that so many guys on this thread are blessing it 'because it works' when otherwise they would barf all over an interior of Southwest blankets or a chevy engine or mag wheels - they work, too. Who applauds when they see a 300D that is all original but has had the Carters replaced by Holley 600 vacuum sec carbs and round chrome air cleaners? No one.
My 58 has/had original AutoPilot that I carefully rebuilt and had functioning- would it have had the same standing if I had replaced it all with cruise control pieces off a 2005 VW? Or a 2005 Sebring? Of course not.
Posted 2019-06-22 7:28 PM (#583879 - in reply to #583868) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
Location: Parts Unknown
I hardly consider same-function electronic components, upgraded, from original parts that
were not very successful, closed up inside a metal box, to be so "offensive" to the original
presentation of this car, as any of the examples you have given. The fact that the car can
now run and drive as the Bendix people intended their system to, but were hampered by
parts then not quite brought up to reliable performance.
Ondian blanket interiors and blatantly visual changes are just that. This is a hidden use
of same-function parts, except these have 60 years of technology and testing working the
bugs out that the Bendix people did not have in 1958.
Personally, I'd be thrilled to drive this car. I'd make it look as stock as I possibly could and
let the magic of evolved technology for those parts that did not work in 1958 form do their
thing. Let the purist keep his wax and paper 1958 parts for that museum display, along with
that OEM air, paint, and every other modern thing that the purist hypocritically uses in restoration,
while denouncing the select pieces and parts they deem "not OK".
Posted 2019-06-22 10:58 PM (#583894 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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I could argue visual changes are far less of an offense. Actually, I'm a person who find the original interior fabrics to be 'OK' but I certainly don't mind when they are changed to something else (no blankets though). The idea that hiding a change makes it OK is more of an offense. I mean....we all know the average person -even a 'car' person would never know the difference if you used a Chevy engine and hid it under those fake Hemi valve covers. You could also use a Chevy transmission and it would be largely invisible. Give me real mechanicals and leather seats any day....
I have no problem with the car using modern injection .... just don't hold it forth as something it ain't.
Posted 2019-06-23 1:52 AM (#583902 - in reply to #583894) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
Location: Parts Unknown
Hmmm .... I guess we come from very different places when it comes to what is
important to us, as it relates to period stuff. I would sooner junk a 50's car than run
it on radials. It's ALL about the presentation. A non-OEM interior .... forget it ! But
doo-dads that make the spark and fuel work, hidden away in a box ? Could not care
less if it is OEM or made last week. If that were the case, I'd insist on NOS pistons
for the rebuild and period motor oil.
Posted 2019-06-23 4:03 AM (#583904 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Posts: 133
restore a cruise control , to original ,ìm all in to that ,(and i do), it worked ok from beguinning , org motor and trans etc etc ,(its a must),im all in to that also,,,and i do so, ,,that also worked good from start ,,, but the fuelie ``NEWER ``did , work good at all, ( read the Service-bullentin) ,thats why it all was recalled , so there is a Huge difference ,what to do or not what to do , cant understand why there is so much angry stuff here,?,, applaud the people who saves cars,, instead for they are sitting in a shead,not comming out,im gonna put the leftovers from per in my Desoto and im gonna fabricate everything as org as possible(the missing pieses) ,because i wont find all the org parts ,and they did not ,work ,,,,and im not gonna put any pic here , i dont need all piss on me for all work and effort i put in/on ``MY`` car , and its not for sale as a fuelie ,and its not for sale at all ,,so i wont fool anybody,,my few cents ....
Posted 2019-06-23 7:57 AM (#583919 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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No one is knocking Per or his car...only the fuss being made over it being an original FI car and the resulting use of a modern FI system. I think too many people on this thread are allowing their personal feelings or relationship with Per to influence their views. If this car were assembled and owned by Lucius Melnick of Trenton, NJ would we feel the same?
Make the car driveable? It woulda been far cheaper (and more correct) to use 2 Carters.
The engine is the 'heart' of the car. That's why you have to careful in what you do under the hood.
Posted 2019-06-23 11:23 AM (#583931 - in reply to #583919) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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That all makes sense if you ignore that the system was intolerably unsatisfactory even by 1958 standards. A restoration using only original parts and assembled and tuned as well as a dedicated team of Chrysler and Bendix engineers were capable would result in a car that performs exactly as it did in 1958 - poorly. That is according to the owners that drove them and the engineers and techs that were unable to keep them roadworthy. In other words, a successful restoration in your eyes would result in a car that is unreliable and runs terribly. I guess we see the purpose of restoration in a different light.
This isn't like a cruise control or auto dimming system. If they perform poorly, or not at all, an owner can be aggravated but the car is still basically functional. Not so with the engine's fuel delivery system. When it acts up, you're calling a tow truck.
Posted 2019-06-23 12:09 PM (#583933 - in reply to #583931) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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I agree - I wouldn't endeavor to run a Bendix system either. But....I also wouldn't 'take credit' for having an original FI car that wasn't running those parts. It'd be more of sidebar..."Actually this car was an original FI car but ...." That's the problem with running the modern parts - you never can lose the 'but'. There's the car that Elvis bought new, then there are all the cars that 'are just like' the one he bought new.
Posted 2019-06-25 6:05 PM (#584053 - in reply to #583933) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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GregCon - 2019-06-23 12:09 PM
I agree - I wouldn't endeavor to run a Bendix system either. But....I also wouldn't 'take credit' for having an original FI car that wasn't running those parts. It'd be more of sidebar..."Actually this car was an original FI car but ...." That's the problem with running the modern parts - you never can lose the 'but'. There's the car that Elvis bought new, then there are all the cars that 'are just like' the one he bought new.
I think there is no need to care if Per has to say "original FI car but..." or not.
It is in any case a factory FI car.
No one has to assume something "right or wrong".
It is just personal thoughts and opinions.
Opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one but they think each others stink.
Posted 2019-06-25 9:41 PM (#584056 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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I just gotta interject. I drive my FL every chance I get. Manual steering, standard brakes, three on da tree and bias plies. Not daily because I commute to work on a motorcycle. I park it wherever I may end up going and most of the time I don't even lock the doors. Never had a problem. Never even considered that someone would even think about screwing with my car. My wife has her own FL, sans fins ('62) and she drives hers even more than I do. Someone here might want to think about relocating to another part of the country and enjoy driving their cars more often.
Posted 2019-06-26 3:45 AM (#584071 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Lots of ways to die, like driving an old car, falling out of a boat, stray hunter's bullet, on and on. I ride a motorcycle, wear "all the gear all the time" and intend to enjoy life and favorite activities to the fullest and not worry excessively about "dying".
Posted 2019-06-26 6:02 AM (#584072 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Can you not just acknowledge that another great fwdlook vehicle is back on the road.
I'm definitely looking forward to meeting Per next week, hopefully
Posted 2019-06-26 8:20 AM (#584077 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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As I've said, if I lived in a small town my view would be different. But in any major city, or even medium sized city, you can't daily drive a FL car and expect to come out clean. It's Russian Roulette.
As for motorcycles, same story. You can live life to the fullest - that sounds great - but when Agnes Nusbaum drives her F-250 over you it's not so great anymore. Especially if you have kids who depend on you to be alive and non-vegetative. There are just too many lousy drivers on the road to put your life in their hands.
Posted 2019-06-26 9:44 AM (#584082 - in reply to #584071) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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58coronet - 2019-06-26 3:45 AM
Lots of ways to die, like driving an old car, falling out of a boat, stray hunter's bullet, on and on. I ride a motorcycle, wear "all the gear all the time" and intend to enjoy life and favorite activities to the fullest and not worry excessively about "dying".
No problem with "dying" the problem is surviving with missing limbs, in a wheelchair or, the ultimmate horror, locked in syndrom.
Posted 2019-06-26 10:51 AM (#584083 - in reply to #584077) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Can't? Yes you can Greg, you just don't. Personally I don't see the point of owning a car, truck, motorcycle and not driving it. If owning and driving these
cars is your thing, why would you live somewhere where you cannot enjoy them?
You guys are arguing semantics. it's hysterical. Total time waster.... like politics and religion.
I'm not going to derail this thread and longer and I will start another thread instead.
Posted 2019-06-26 1:22 PM (#584090 - in reply to #584082) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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1960fury - 2019-06-26 9:44 AM
58coronet - 2019-06-26 3:45 AM
Lots of ways to die, like driving an old car, falling out of a boat, stray hunter's bullet, on and on. I ride a motorcycle, wear "all the gear all the time" and intend to enjoy life and favorite activities to the fullest and not worry excessively about "dying".
No problem with "dying" the problem is surviving with missing limbs, in a wheelchair or, the ultimmate horror, locked in syndrom.
This from someone that regularly drives their 1960 Plymouth 150 mph.
Posted 2019-06-26 3:00 PM (#584093 - in reply to #584078) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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58coronet - 2019-06-26 5:58 AM
To each his own. Motorcycles, flying, etc are not for everyone. That’s why there is golf.
I was wondering why golf existed, now I know.
Driving an old car with a lap belt (or none) or a motorcycle is a calculated risk. As long as you don't drive it very often, and in places & times where there aren't a lot of crazy drivers or drunk drivers, you can mitigate the risk to be pretty low. But do it every day during mad hours with hoards of insane people on the road, and you are rolling those loaded dice many many times. It won't take long for your number to eventually come up. Here in LA, the risks are even higher so that's my perspective. I've personally witnessed 2 motorcycle crashes from the seat of my car (no, I didn't cause them :D). One of the accidents was fatal. The other was saved by pure luck, some skill & the grace of God; sliding around on his back with body armor across 3 lanes of traffic. Flying risks are worse because many of them you don't know about until it takes you down 6ft under.
So in other words, there is a big difference between riding a motorcycle and commuting with one. The same could be said for an old car without appropriate safety upgrades. Three-point seat belts reduce your risk considerably if you can install them. They do seem out-of-place in a hardtop, but if you are driving the car every day during commute times, I would consider them to be essential.I install them in all of my sedans.
Posted 2019-06-26 7:12 PM (#584105 - in reply to #584090) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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58coronet - 2019-06-26 1:22 PM
1960fury - 2019-06-26 9:44 AM
58coronet - 2019-06-26 3:45 AM
Lots of ways to die, like driving an old car, falling out of a boat, stray hunter's bullet, on and on. I ride a motorcycle, wear "all the gear all the time" and intend to enjoy life and favorite activities to the fullest and not worry excessively about "dying".
No problem with "dying" the problem is surviving with missing limbs, in a wheelchair or, the ultimmate horror, locked in syndrom.
This from someone that regularly drives their 1960 Plymouth 150 mph.
You should have simply said "regularly drives", the 150mph makes no sense, if something happens at 150 in these cars the above scenarios are very unlikely (knocking on wood).
Posted 2019-06-26 7:27 PM (#584107 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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If you daily drove a FL car here in Houston, the odds are very, very high that within one year it would no longer be your daily driver. Very high. Most likely, you'd crash it. Second likely, it'd be stolen.
So....while you 'can' drive an FL car....it's not at all a prudent move. I 'can' leave all my doors unlocked at night, and I 'can' leave piles of cash on my front lawn. It's just that I try to not ask for troubles.
Posted 2019-06-26 7:41 PM (#584110 - in reply to #582859) Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Posts: 7400 Location: northern germany
Things are changing in Germany too, you may heard it in the news. Yes, I really think about parking my car in the garage and throw away the keys. Again, had a very unpleasant experience with the usual ..... creatures. I'm not saying "people", as a chimp can walk on 2 legs too. A human has to act human and civilised, if not he/she is not a human. All I can say is, I'm full of hate.
1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
Face it, the original was crap and was recalled. It wasn't even worthy to leave on the original cars. There are likely some fundamental issues with it. To make it work today, you would have to reverse engineer it, and then re-design it so it works. It still wouldn't be original. The original system is great for a museum; but if it were my car, I would have done it exactly like Per did so I could drive and enjoy it. Save the museum parts to put into a museum.
