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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 585
 
Location: SE Arizona | I suspect a few members beside me saw the 57/8 Plymouth sway bar go on E Bay last week (I bid, but it went to rich for me). It did remind me that with the extra weight of the HEMI I'm putting in the Plaza it's one of the things I want to add to the car.
I haven't had any luck finding a listing for the 57/8 Plymouths or Dodges from aftermarket suppliers so I went scrounging at the wrecking yard Saturday. I was hoping to find a 60s Chrysler that would have something close enough work.
While I was out there I came across a 57 Imperial 4 door I'd almost forgot about. Not only did have a sway bar it was the 7/8" bar (as far as I know the biggest sway bar Chrysler made in that era).
My car is still in the body shop, so it will be a while before I can actually get it on, but from the measurements I took it should be a direct bolt on ( I actually kind of wonder if this wasn't the bar they used on the D 501 Dodges). I'm going to try to find new bushings for it locally (57-65 are supposed to use the same bushings), but if I don't have any luck Gary Goers lists them.
I'm not sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if the bar wasn't standard on all the 57-8 Imperials. With the weather a bit cooler now and people going to the wrecking yards, just thought I'd pass this on. | |
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Regular
Posts: 67
Location: Memphis, TN, USA | I would like to find a front sway bar for my 57 Desoto Firesweep. Do you know if anything can made to fit it?
Don | |
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Expert
Posts: 1497
 
Location: Fairfax, Minnesota | I found a 7/8" bar but it is my understanding, from my email conversations with him and/or the instruction sheets, that Goers didn't make both types of bushings for this diameter bar. I was never able to make the end bushings fit. | |
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Wise Old Village Idiot
Posts: 3591
Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | Y'know Mike, last year sometime. I ebayed a OM '58 NYer sway bar, WITH, ALL the brackets, (frame, as well and the strut rod brkts) ALL NEW bushings, ALL stainless bolts, nuts, and washers, ALL sandblasted, AND expoy primered.
It didn't bid up to half what that one sold for!
If I remember right, it went to Portugal, to a member, with a '59 SF.
There is a booklet you/others need to get; "Handling, How To Get It" By Addico.
Go back into the archives on this site. I have told several times, on what diameter bar to get for the front, and back, AND WHY.
You do NOT want to put a heavier/stiffer/bigger diameter bar on the front ONLY.
If you DO, then you MUST put the same diameter in the REAR!
Here is what happens. W/O a anti roll bar. Vehicle is into a turn at a certain road speed. Vehicle leans in the direction of the turn with the REAR of the vehicle pitiching higher than the front. Outside front tire rolls under.
OK, you install a normal OM front SB. Some of that rear upward body pitching is somewhat eliminated, same turn, now can be taken at a slightly faster speed.
Now take a 'welder's' point of view. (Y'know. Welders and old Whorers are a lot a like. All they both holler for, is more rod, more heat, and more money! Whoo-Haw!) MORE is better!
The NYer bar was 3/4" diameter. You say the Imp bar is 7/8". Lets go with a OM '70's-early '90's Ch3vy Van bar at a 1 1/8" THAT oughta eliminate any body roll!
Here is what happens with that way of thinking. (That booklet explaines this in better detail than I can)
Same turn, same speed, the rear upward pitching is only slightly more reduced. You CAN now go into a turn at a faster speed than with no, or an OM bar.
But look at the amount of stress/extra weight now placed on the outside front spindle/bearings/hub/wheel/tire! Chance of parts breaking. OM was NOT designed with that kind of stress
The IDEAL: For STREET use, with an occasional week end auto-cross race.
1'' dia FRONT, AND REAR bar.
Use polyurthane bushings ONLY, at the bar to frame mounting. Normal OM rubber bushings at the bar ends or link bolt ends.
As I have said in the archives. A '80-'96 full size Bronco rear 1" bar is a almost bolt in, in the FwdLk vehicles. There is an existing hole in the FwdLk boxed part of the frame, that has to be enlarged, a bushing welded in. So that when the Bronco link mounting bolt is torqued down the frame wont colapse (kids took my dictionary)
A couple of members have allready installed Bronco rear bars, and posted pictures.
Again. As I have said in the archives on this subjest, I'm going to do a pictorial step-by-step how to on istalling a Bronco and a Ch3vy van rear bar.
Mike, go look at a '70's B body lower A arm sway bar mount.
That mounting bracket is designed to have a LOT MORE better anit roll than the OM FwdLk link bar mounting.
As far as not finding a front FwdLk bar. There are aftermarket places that DO sell them.
The reason they are not plentiful is. Back in '57, to advertise the merits of the tortion bar suspension. They showed a '57 F0rd and Ch3vy WITH a front sway bar, going into a turn. Next, a '57 Plymouth WITHOUT a front bar, had less body roll/lean! Didn't need any bars!
I found a aftermarket 1" bar, with a stitch welded, B body style, lower A arm brket, made out of 1/4' plate in a yard. I'm going to use it on the front of my Belvy.
ANY OM 1" bar that has the ends, (link bolts) as close to the outside of the FwdLk lower A arms, and the mounting is close to the frame width, and clear everything will work
I'm sure Hielwig/Addico will have a front AND rear bar kits for the FwdLk vehicles.
Price will be up there. I bought TWO, COMPLETE, Bronco bars, at a yard, sometime ago for a Ben Franklin.
Eventually I will find what OM bar will work for the front of the FwdLk's.
That way we can get our 'handling' at a fraction of the aftermarket"s one bar price!
Have fun. | |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7401
Location: northern germany | i had mine custom made 1.1/8" front 15/16" rear ( rear one maybe a bit too strong) by a small east german spring shop and only paid around $120 per bar, if i remember correctly.
i fabricated brackets that i weldet to the strut rods (as close as possible to the control arms) in order to use the end link bolts (instead of the oe clamps) the original bars are just too weak (largest 7/8") and the design is not very efficient. the frame mounts are much too close to the centerline of the car. my car had the 3/4" standard front bar which didn't make a big difference. if interested i can try to post some pics of my sway bar set ups. they work GREAT. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 585
Location: SE Arizona | Rick, I've run Addco bars in the past and they are a decent product, I even read the little booklet you refer to that they used to pack with each bar. I'm not so sure I necessarly buy into they reasoning that that front and rear bars should be the same size (remember they are the ones building the bars and may not be the most unbiased sourse of information).
True suspension tuning must take into account a lot of factors about the individual vehicle AND driving/ride charastics the owner wishes to have when the project is done. As I recall Addco's book fails to mention such things as front to rear weight bias, suspension geometry, the different charastics between leaf and coil sprung rear suspensions, affects of different shock valving etc. Addcos "one size (diameter) fits all" approach while definatly improving the handling of the majority of cars, especially those that came with no bars to begin with is still not the optimum way to go about setting up a suspension.
The majority of factory front and rear sway bar combinations tend to use a rear bar that is 1/2 to 7/8 the size of the front bar, and while these setups are admittedly a compromise between handelling and comfort (with the comfort likely being a bigger part). I personally tend to go with bigger bars in the same ratio of size that the factory used. Of course if I was making and selling sway bars, good hype woud be to tell people that need a diffrent size (ratio) than the other guys/factory offers.
In the case of the 57 Plymouth I'm building, it's intended to be a long distance interstate cruzer/stop light to stop light car, not a road racer. If I was running a small block, chances are I wouldn't even worry about a bar on it, however with the iron head Hemi that it's receiving I figure a front bar couldn't hurt. After the car is actually on the road driving, I'll evaluate the need for a rear bar if any, based on how the car handles for the way it's going to be driven. | |
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Wise Old Village Idiot
Posts: 3591
Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | Good Grief! My Addico booklet sure is differnt from yours.
It 'does' cover ALL types of suspension systems. Pros and cons of each. Even covers Watts lingages, and Panhard bars!
I never bought a Addico or Heilwig bars. I always got junk yard bars, etc. I saw the advertismant for the booklet somewhere, and ordered it.
Some things I agree with, and disagree with.
The one size fits all, I agree with you. Each vehicle is differnt.
I'm relating the 1" front and rear bar(s) is middle line. Should offer EXCELLENT handling for normal street driving as well as an occasional autocross race for most of the normal FwdLk vehicles.
When I was doing some VERY serious autocrossing back in the '70's. One of the loopholes in the rule book's stingent OEM suspension, was swaybars.
Hells Bells! I was running stacked OM front bars, a front and rear facing rear bars!
With autocorss, each week the track was changed. Depending on what car each of the track judges owned. Guys that owned Porshes/VW's/Volvos/etc, ALWAYS had a short twisty track. The Corvette/Mustang/V-8 guys, opted for longer straights.
Short twisty course, bigger than a 1"diameter bar(s) was needed. When the track had longer straights and very few turns, less weight of under 1" was good.
Since I was running in the top of the stock suspension classes. (meaning 'top' I was borderline cheating, and would be bumped to the modified suspension classes.) I found out the 1" diameter bars was a good middle ground. Along with the bar's mounting bushings being polyurthane, and the link ends being regulair OM rubber.
The all out modified classes, every bushing was polyurthane. It was a must have! Where poly busings for every day street driving is sorta' unconfortable.
Out there where you live what is it, you gotta drive a hundred miles to find a turn?
Here, it is IMPOSSIBLE to find a straight-a-way within any miles. LOL
So, I'm just relating my experiences that worked, and pass them along.
Along with any question asked on this site. One can take the awnser(s) use them to a 'T' or, not use the suggestions at all, or, modifiy the suggestions to fit their whims.
Soundslike you got your bases covered, good! It's just I would suggest a rear bar for all that forward weight.
Have fun. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 397
Location: McHenry Illinois | Rick,
While we are on the sway bar subject again, I just wanted to update you on my progress. I finished up the sway bar installation with 1 1/8" front and rear bars on the '58. The rear being a Helwig '86 OJ Bronco 2WD (per your advise), and the front I had bent up from spring steel at my local fabricator looking very similar to the skinny $300 "Ebay sway bar" from last week. Only instead of clamping the ends to the strut rods as the factory did, I used short "bolt type" stablilizer links and welded 3/16" braced tabs to the lower control arms just inboard of the strut rod mounts, securing the center of the bar to the front frame crossmember with conventional saddle type mounts. If any of you Forward Lookers are contemplating doing this modification, DO IT! DO IT!. The handling of the Plymmie with the bars can be very easily compared to that of a '94 -'96 Impala SS. If any of you have ever driven one of those cars, Its quite impressive to see a car of that size handle THAT good. Anyway, we still have a few good days of weather here in the Windy City, so I'll be cuttin' the corners like never before with the ole steed! Thanks again Rick for your expert advise.
Dave W.  | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 585
Location: SE Arizona | Rick, I do believe that we were looking a different books, the one I remember was basically a medium size pamphlet.
"........Out there where you live what is it, you gotta drive a hundred miles to find a turn?.........." LOL that can be pretty close, some places here there aint nothn' for miles and miles but miles and miles.Basically, on my Plaza 2 dr Post I'm in uncharted grounds right now. I figure a front bar will be a good thing due to the added weight of the HEMI, (I will still have to make that turn 100 miles down the road).
The front bar may just turn out to be a starting point for what the suspension will eventually become. Once I get the car actually back together and have driven it a while, I'll be able to see how what I'm doing works together, .....heavier torsion bars, shocks, tires weight bias etc. I'm first admit that at this point, I'm pretty much guessing based on my previous experience.
Your mechanical insights are always well thought out and welcome. The Bronco sway bar info will save a lot of figuring out for me if I decide add a rear bar. Right now, I'm just a wait and see point (darn it).
My58PlymouthFury... If you could post some pictures on your sway bars, I'd really be interested to see how it looks.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 397
Location: McHenry Illinois | Will do Mike. I'll snap some pics of the sway bars next time I have her in the air.
Dave W.  | |
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Wise Old Village Idiot
Posts: 3591
Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | OH, PLEASE! Somebody post plenty of pictures!!!!!
It's going to be a while before I can get to that point, to post 'how to' pictures.
INCH AND A EIGHTH!!!!!! GHEEZE That is 1 ton pick-up/Ch3vy hi-top van/all out racing, diameter!
Anyway. What did you do to the rear frame to accept the Bronco link bolt? Welding that sleeve in a existing hole, which is near the correct location, smooth the weld down, no judge is gonna be able to see it, was what I came up with so the 'purists' could 'have their cake and eat it too', over a external brkt welded on the inside of the frame where the tailpipe might rattle against it.
Can anybody, PLEASE, post a picture of the '70's B body lower A arm, OM swaybar mounting brkt?
That, whatever shape you want to call it, is how I plan to make the A arm brkts for my set up.
You mounting the swaybar end, to the A arm, instead of the support rod, results in superior handling!
MoPar used that support rod mounting for the swaybar, clear up in the '80's!
Look, that mounting procedure, does work,,,,,,,,, but,,,,, why not make it work better?
Post pictures of how you designed yer A arm brkts.
You say you got a local coil spring shop in yer area to make up a custom designed bar for yer car?
What was the cost doing it that way vs. buying a Addico/Heliwig for a FwdLk vehicle?
(the idea is getting them to run off several for those on the site, if it's cheaper)
Or is Addico/Heilwig"s FwdLk bars mount to the support rod like OM? (Mr. Yuk face, being made)
Now, if someone who is better equiped than I am right now, can see what it takes to mount that '69-'84 Corvette steering box,,,,,,,,,,,,. Your Ply will handle QUICKER (better ?) than the "jelly-bean" SS Impala!
Hells Bells! Want the BEST handling possible!? Either use later 'Vette, or Viper, complete suspen, welded in the the stock OM frame. ALL indipendent suspension. (Street Rodders have been using Vette rear suspension since it came out, in '63) Or extend the existing Viper/Vette frame, and set yer body down on it!
Isn't there a '57 Chrysler being set down on a Viper frame/running gear right now?
But, getting back to relaity,,,,,,,,,,. Pocketbook, garage space, tools, and experience, the 'normal' Fwdlker that is on this site, has. The double swaybar/Vette steering conversion is our (only) "Ticket To Ride"
SOMEBODY/EVERYBODY, POST PICTURES OF YOUR IMPROVEMENTS (modifications)!!!
Don't keep hem to yourselves, thinking the purists, will voice some oral (poop)!
Fearless, has even set up a section just for that!
Your improvment (ideas, ANY ideas) might suddenly, clear away the 'cobwebs' ('y'know, the F0rd's lightbulb advertisment back in the '60's/'70's) a lesser experienced, needs, to fix/improve a problem! | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 397
Location: McHenry Illinois | Will do Canman! I'll try to get it over to my work where I can put it up in the air rather than getting sub-par pics from laying on the floor in my garage.
Dave W. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 397
Location: McHenry Illinois | Here are the sway bar pics:
 (front sway bar.jpg)
 (front bar saddle clamps.jpg)
 (front bar end link.jpg)
 (rear sway bar.jpg)
 (rear bar end link right side.jpg)
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 front sway bar.jpg (41KB - 453 downloads)
front bar saddle clamps.jpg (30KB - 319 downloads)
front bar end link.jpg (17KB - 326 downloads)
rear sway bar.jpg (43KB - 647 downloads)
rear bar end link right side.jpg (27KB - 313 downloads)
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Wise Old Village Idiot
Posts: 3591
Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | Dave, GOOD pictures!
However, that rear bar don't look anything like the OM fullsized Broncos I've got bars from.
Sounds like your combination works!
Anyway.
You mentioned the handling of the 'jelly bean' shaped, SS Impalas!
You know what size front bar those cars have!? INCH AND A QUARTER!
1 1/4" front, and a 1" rear! GEEZE!
That is the size of most motorcycle exhaust pipes! | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 641
Location: Evansville, WI | I've got one of the afore mentioned Impala SS's(or close enough, it's a cop package Caprice)For something that weighs more than my '55, it handles like a dream. I can out corner a good majority of cars on the road. My limiting factor is tires, because my 15" cop tires have huge flexable sidewalls, where as the Impala SS got 17's instead. With minor mods, they can be GREAT AutoX cars. Like Can said, it's got big darn swaybars on it stock. My upgraded swaybar is an even bigger 1.4" bar off a late Z28. In my quest for better handeling, stopping and cheaper parts, I'm probably going to try and adapt the SS front suspension onto my '55.
Now back to our regularly schedualed Foreward Look discussion..
Edited by Bugman 2005-11-24 12:13 PM
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Veteran
Posts: 150
Location: Kronenwetter, Wis..... . just south of Wausau | Stefan Steinmaier has posted nice pics of his front sway bar installation on 59SportFury.net. Just go to that site, click on "showcase" - click on "Sport Fury", and then click on Stefan's name and you'll see a link on "swaybar installation". He has other good info/pics on the page. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 354
Location: Louisiana | Dave,
That '58 Plymouth sway bar installation is beautiful. I'm very intrigued. This message thread is now two years old. How are the sway bars holding up? Where did you get the hot pink bushings for the front bar? Are they polyurethane?
Did the black bushings on the rear sway bar come with the kit you purchased from Helwig? Are those U-bolts I see attached to the axle sleeves? Did those also come from Helwig?
Thanks!
Justin | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 397
Location: McHenry Illinois | Justin,
All the front hardware is from the local Autozone. The bushings are a very bright red (look pink in the pics). The rear hardware is from the Helwig kit. I just used shorter end link spacers than the kit supplied (GM full size caliper slides).
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Expert
Posts: 1497
Location: Fairfax, Minnesota | Dave W. --"My 58 PlmouthFury"
This is a reply to part of a thread that has been resurected from 2 years ago . I am curious about the impact of the three things that you did in this modification; inboard mount, end links, and mount to crossmember without links.
Can you comment on which modifcation you feel contributed the most?
Thanks,
Ray
Edited by Ray 2008-01-06 10:42 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 397
Location: McHenry Illinois | Ray,
I think the way I set it up is a more modern approach to the bar mounting than the factory did back in the fifties, however, the end result is basically the same, links in the center or links outboard at the control arms. The biggest impact to handling I think would be bar diameter. What was stock 3/4" or 7/8"? Most full size cars built within the last 15 years or so have 1", 1 1/8", 1 1/4" or even 1 5/16" bars on the front. The only downside is the urethane mounts: If you hit a pothole with one front wheel, it is a little harsh. Hope this helps. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1497
Location: Fairfax, Minnesota | Thanks Dave. That cleared up all my questions.
Ray | |
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Regular
Posts: 67
Location: Memphis, TN, USA | Guys, Forgive the newer car vintage here but since we're talking all about sway bars...
I have purchased front sway bars from Summit Racing for my 2 '64 Darts. They seem to work great on dry pavement but I "fishtail" bad on wet. Maybe I need to put rears on as well??????? The fronts are 7/8 I think.
ALSO: tHE KIT'S MOUNTING HARDWARE/INSTRUCTIONS required mouting the end link brackets on the shock absorber bolts--Is this a common practice?? Is it ok or bad? Would weldind the brackets to the lower control arms be better? If so what vis the ideal location??? Thanks for all advice | |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 9672
Location: So. Cal | 7/8" diameter bars shouldn't be a problem at all for a '64 Dart. The 67-69 Formula S Barracudas came with 7/8" diameter from the factory. After market bars for these are 1.125". I have never heard of mounting the sway bar to the shock. They usually just mount to the lower control arm. The end link bushings have some give in them to allow the bar to rotate up with suspension travel. If your shock-mounted style has no give in the mounts, that could be your problem. The bar would act a lot stiffer than it is if there is a binding problem. If you want to change it, just take a look under a 67-69 Dart or Cuda. You might even be able to use the same bar and fab mounts to fit it. A rear bar is also a very good idea. Good luck. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY | My 58 Fury, you should have your guy bend up a few more front bars. I know my 58 wagon would love one!! What did he charge you for front bar? | |
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Expert
Posts: 1812
Location: Slidell La. | Sid can you post pics of your setup . Getting ready to do front and rears on my car , Got a 1 1/8 from a 79 tbird for the front and a 7/8s on the rear , don t know what it from but it will fit good . Looking for ideas on mounting them . Thanks | |
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Veteran
Posts: 253
Location: Tampere, Finland | Here´s my version of sway bars. First two photos are from the car where sway bars were before. Two last photos are from my car. Here it´s not ready yet. That black part is just bolted on suspension arm/strut bar. In these pics sway bar is on the wrong side, it is going to be above the strut bar. Pretty easy to install. I´ll take better pics when it´s ready. I haven´t installed rear sway bar yet.
 (vak1.jpg)
 (vak2.jpg)
 (vak3.jpg)
 (vak4.jpg)
 (vak5.jpg)
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vak1.jpg (54KB - 241 downloads)
vak2.jpg (62KB - 243 downloads)
vak3.jpg (43KB - 241 downloads)
vak4.jpg (49KB - 229 downloads)
vak5.jpg (49KB - 233 downloads)
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Veteran
Posts: 253
Location: Tampere, Finland | Front sway bar installed. It´s not symmetrical, hope it doesn´t matter. I´ll fix it next winter. Well, as you see, there is also something else to do with the body (rust).
Edited by Kingsway 2008-03-24 3:18 PM
 (vak6.jpg)
 (vak7.jpg)
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vak6.jpg (42KB - 241 downloads)
vak7.jpg (48KB - 231 downloads)
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7401
Location: northern germany | kai, looks great, but keep in mind when driving, a sway bar is (like) a torsion bar affected scratches, scuffs etc. its mounted pretty low. look at the dent in your crossmember. your sway bar sits even lower AND ahead of the tires... be carefull, slide a rubber (cooling) hose over it at least. | |
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Wise Old Village Idiot
Posts: 3591
Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | what did you make the mount out of that bolted on top of the OM strut bar?
It looks like some kind of strut bar also.
How did you 'turn' the end diameter down to get (looks like a 1/2' threads) a die on the end to make threads?
Or is the shoulder turned down to 1/2" to fit the hime end and 3/8" threads?
NICE simple A-arm mounting!
Next time you do this. Change on little thing. It will improve your body lean better. Move the front bar's center mounts out farther.
Try to mount them clear out almost to the sway bar bends. I can see you making a simple gusseted brkt that goes from the cross member up to the frame rail.
Hey Sid. Guess what I just found upstairs in one corner of the garage in a box with a Germany addy!? I was wondering what the ^%$# do I have, that's from Germany!? Here is was that Mercedes stabilizer shock you gave me a 100 years ago! I stuck it upsatairs and forgot about it. I'll think I'll stick it on the Dodge when I get the Bronco rear bar, and that aftermarket front bar I had for the '58, installed! | |
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Veteran
Posts: 253
Location: Tampere, Finland | Yes, sway bar sits pretty low, I´ve noticed that. I´ll see this summer how it works. Rubber hose sounds good. Before installation I was thinking to install sway bar to backside of the crossmember. Then it would be 1/2 inch back and 1 inch upper than now and it would be above the strut bars all its way. But because of strut bars there isn´t room enough. Next winter I´m gonna shape sway bar again and try again. Then I can also fix center mounts and move them out. Rick: I don´t quite understand your questions (sorry my poor english), but I try to answer. I didn´t have to make any modifications to suspension or body, just bolt on. At first I took OM strut bar bolts off and bolted black sway bar mount on with longer bolts. Sway bar and strut bar uses same mounting spots. Sway bar mount is made from ordinary steel, so I don´t see any problem making threads. There´s 13mm (almost like 1/2") tread in that mount and its bolt goes through the articulated shackle (is that correct?). That shackle is connected to sway bar with 4" arm.
Did this answer your questions?
Edited by Kingsway 2008-03-25 2:37 PM
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Wise Old Village Idiot
Posts: 3591
Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | OK, see if I can ask this way. It may be my 'accent' (ignrnt hik) you not being able to understand.
Pictures; vak 4, and vak 5. That black thing. What ALL can you tell me about that piece? How you made it? What was it made out of? Etc?
Usually, when aftermarket front bars are used on the front of FwdLk vehicles. B-body (Road Runner, Super B, Super Bird, etc) lower A-arm mount is used over on the FwdLk lower A-arm. Sorry I don't have a picture.
That thing you used, I like better than the B-body mounting.
Thanks | |
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Veteran
Posts: 253
Location: Tampere, Finland | Black pieces: I haven´t made them by myself. My friend made them to his 1959 Dodge Kingsway and I had them from him. But it is very simple. It is an universal bracket from local hardware store and it is stainless steel. Thread was already there, only had to do was two holes for strut bar bolts. I´m not sure about its main use and I haven´t made any strength analysis, but I believe that it will hold. Material thickness from the thinnest spot is about 3/8”-1/2” and it´s more than 1” wide from same spot. Same guy has also turned these and other kind of mounts with lathe, but I don´t know any specs of how has he done it.
I think the weakest part of the mount is the 12mm horizontal bolt which holds that 4” arm. Bolt is 10.8. I don´t know do they use same standards in USA, but 10 means that tensile strenght is 1000MPa and 9 means that relation of yield limit and breaking strenght is 0.9. Yield limit is 10*8*10 = 800MPa. Breaking strenght is 800MPa/0.9 = 888MPa. So, I wonder if the mount won´t hold! Of course, this bolt is not the only thing in the sway bar. OT: My parents use to live in Dallas, Texas and I visited them few times. Sometimes speaking with orig local people wasn´t so easy because of their wide Texas accent. There was one small store I used to visit. I used to have smalltalk with storekeeper, mostly he asked me about Europe and things in there. He always sounded like he would have hot potato in his mouth. These were good lessons for my english comprehension.
Edited by Kingsway 2008-03-26 2:31 PM
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7401
Location: northern germany | alumcanTandThd - 2008-03-25 12:52 AM
Hey Sid. Guess what I just found upstairs in one corner of the garage in a box with a Germany addy!? I was wondering what the ^%$# do I have, that's from Germany!? Here is was that Mercedes stabilizer shock you gave me a 100 years ago! I stuck it upsatairs and forgot about it. I'll think I'll stick it on the Dodge when I get the Bronco rear bar, and that aftermarket front bar I had for the '58, installed!
great, remember, it was for your 57 and i wasn't sure if it (the bracket i fabricated) would fit. well you have a 61 with a BB now. i test fitted it on my girls BB 61 so i'm positive it will work for you | |
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Wise Old Village Idiot
Posts: 3591
Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | Hey Sid! I sent you a PM and a email. I don't know if the email addy I used is current or not?
Try not to PM me, I can't open them. Thanks | |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
Location: Colorado Springs, CO | I just scored a pair of heavy duty torsion bars and a front sway bar with all the mounting hardware for my '62 300. The engine is out of the car and I wasn't planning to put the sway bar in until it's ready with paint, etc. But, if anybody is interested in photos of the unmounted sway bar and mocked up in my stripped out subframe, I can probably do that. I think the setup is the same for '60-'64 full size and may be similar for earlier FL cars. Let me know. | |
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Expert
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Location: Slidell La. | Yeah Dave , we want pics . Can you post them here ? | |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
Location: Colorado Springs, CO | I will sure try to figure out how to get it done. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
Location: Colorado Springs, CO | So after much fighting with the photo editing program, here they are. Looks like one of the photos of the bracket and link didn't rotate. The 4 small bolts in my hand are the self-tappers used to mount the brackets to the front subframe. If you need explanations on any of the photos let me know.
Edited by DK's300 2008-05-08 8:42 PM
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sway bar 014.jpg (42KB - 222 downloads)
sway bar 015.jpg (48KB - 337 downloads)
sway bar 016.jpg (48KB - 276 downloads)
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Veteran
Posts: 144
Location: Colorado Springs, CO | Does anyone know of a vendor who makes or can replace the rubber bushings in my sway bar mounts? Thanks.
Edited by DK's300 2008-08-30 5:13 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 781
Location: Montreal, Canada | Gary Goers has the parts you need on page 42 of his newest catalog. (If you have it) | |
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Veteran
Posts: 174
Location: Phoenix, AZ | Charlie
How far apart are the a-arm mounting holes on the 79 T-bird bar?
Jim | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1060
Location: Building incorrect cars since 2000!! | dk
What is that set up off of? Looking to put a sway bar on my 60 | |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
Location: Colorado Springs, CO | The bar and hardware are from a '62 300H. I think the frame and hub to hub width on your '60 might be the same or close enough to fit. | |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Please-all remember that we do not need, or want, to try to install a rear sway bar on our cars.
The front bar (a good thing) helps to keep the front tires planted on the road, and allows the rear wheels
to slide, creating a bit of an oversteer (neutralizing the inherent understeering effect caused by our heavy
engines, and forward-weight bias).
A rear sway bar will tend to cause the inboard-cornering rear wheel to come off of the pavement, instead of having
both wheels slide across the roadway.
NEAT little secret, here: the national 'salvage' yards are full of Dodges and stationwagons with sway bars.
They just have to cut-out the sway bar brackets from the frame rails, and remove the lower control arm bracket
attachments.
As above posted, Gary Goers sells correct sway bar bushings.
BTW, a CHRY/Soto/IMP sway bar CAN be retrofitted to a Dodge or a PLY, but, due to the length/width of those bars,
their attaching frame brackets need to be installed "upside down" (with their 'horizontal floors'-section located at the TOP
of the frame rail, instead of near the bottom of it) with the sway bar being suspended from that elevated position.
The physical location of the sway bar brackets, on the frame rails, will also be different from the Dodge position.
Dodge (and PLY??) frame rails already have OEM slit-notches cut into them, where the Dodge sway bar brackets' OEM-mounting-tabs should be inserted and welded to the frame (if that particular frame were to have had a sway bar be installed on it.)--how slick is THAT?
In 1957, only the Custom Royals and the station wagons got OEM sway bars.
The Coros & Roys got heavier (optional equipment on the CR's) standard torsion bars, than the CR's.
Edited by d500neil 2008-09-26 6:41 PM
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Expert 5K+
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Location: northern germany | d500neil - 2008-09-26 6:34 PM
Please-all remember that we do not need, or want, to try to install a rear sway bar on our cars.
The front bar (a good thing) helps to keep the front tires planted on the road, and allows the rear wheels
to slide, creating a bit of an oversteer (neutralizing the inherent understeering effect caused by our heavy
engines, and forward-weight bias).
neil, what makes FL cars different from the millions of front engine rwd vehicles (i e cop cars) that came from the factory with rear sway bars? rear sway bars improve traction and reduce self steer by limiting the unwanted tilting (camber change) of banjo axles. btw, i weighed my fury and weight was very close to 50/50 front/rear. | |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Rear sway bars actually inhibit cornering, as they tend to cause the inside rear wheel to LIFT, causing loss of control.
We have independent front suspensions, so it helps to try to coordinate the actions of those wheels, relative to each other.
I can quote from various publications, on this subject, but I am not a mechanical engineer, so can not quote various
laws of physics to anyone.
The simplest layman's explanation is to defer to the engineers at Chrysler, and the other manufacturers, who determined that
rear sway bars were not needed on heavy, front-weight-oriented cars, but, that probably is not sufficient logic for you.
If you want your car to exhibit as neutral as possible cornering capability, instead of a drastic understeer, you will install
a front sway bar, only.
And, do not install, under any circumstances, synthetic rear end gear oil, as it will (in every car, but Sid's) leak/seep past
axle seals and contaminate the rear brake shoes , and pads (on rear disc brakes cars).
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Regular
Posts: 62
Location: Novi, Michigan | There are various theories of optimum roll rates, spring rates, roll centers, scrub radius, alignment settings, damper characteristics, etc., etc, etc., and there's no perfect recipe. The key reason you don't find many rear anti sway bars on pre '70 Mopars was the belief that the existing longitudinal rear leaf springs offered enough inherent roll stiffness compared to GM and Ford coil-spring suspension systems that anti-sway bars weren't necessary. (Leaf springs twist when deflected unevenly side-to-side, especially when stiff bushings are used.)
The LA police demanded rear anti sway bars when the '68 B-body pursuit cars were developed and Chrysler had to reconsider their vehicle dynamics strategy and balance the police-specific stiffer rear roll rates with even higher front roll rates to prevent oversteer tendencies. As suspensions became more compliant with softer spring and bushing rates and handling demands increased with better and wider tires during the '70's, front anti-sway bars became "stiffer" and rear anti-sway bars became more common.
As long as the front and rear roll rates are balanced to prevent undesirable oversteer tendencies or inside tire-lifting , I'd go with the largest diameter front and rear bars you can find or fabricate and see if you like the improved handling characteristics. If standard-rate leaf springs and torsion bars are retained, you can still enjoy the benefits of a soft, comfortable ride with improved cornering - not a bad combination for a heavy street car. I updated my 1961 Fury in 1976 with a Cordoba rear sway-bar and a custom front bar and there was a dramatic handling improvement. Good luck with your project. | |
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Location: northern germany | d500neil - 2008-09-29 9:15 PM
And, do not install, under any circumstances, synthetic rear end gear oil, as it will (in every car, but Sid's) leak/seep past
axle seals and contaminate the rear brake shoes , and pads (on rear disc brakes cars).
oh no not that again! read the answer here:
http://forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=20639&post...
back to sway bars. rear sway bars do NOT cause understeer (a too big rear sway bar can increase OVERsteer) they do all that what i said in my previous post and also add safety and prevent loss of control in case a rear spring breaks. which happened to me with one of andy bernbaums leaf springs, very unpleasant. (of course a front sway bar is a must when using a rear sway bar) neil, you said you are no engineer... correct! but ENGINEERS add rear sway bars to front engine RWD vehicles. nothing more needs to be said. and btw my car handles better with a rear sway bar. (yes, i have a big 1.1/8" front sway bar) did YOU ever race or drive a fl car with a rear sway bar?
Edited by 1960fury 2008-09-30 1:43 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1060
Location: Building incorrect cars since 2000!! | SID
where did you get your sway bar? i want to put front and rear on mine. Your are right front and rear make a huge difference on cars. My 85 rx7 rwd has frt and rear with a solid axle so maybe those engineers know something 
If you have any pics that would be great. | |
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Location: northern germany | 60 Plymouth - 2008-09-30 8:00 PM
SID
where did you get your sway bar?
If you have any pics that would be great.
had them custom made. will post pictures soon. | |
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Wise Old Village Idiot
Posts: 3591
Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | Neil, your two statements,,,,,,, are true,,,,,. in a way. They are true, but, lack any scientific merit. But, believe it or not, there is MORE TRUTH to a he sez-she sez, than to a scientific equation!
Now this is long winded, because I must explain in detail.
The raising of the inside rear wheel in a turn ,,,, is true, but, there are circumstances, that you are leaving out.
OK, from the beginning.
A vehicle such as these, leave the factory with COMFORTABLE RIDE designed! Notice when the performance cars were introduced, more spring leaves, bigger diameter bars, everything was stiffer. The ratio of 'family ride' vs 'performance ride' is staggering. Which is more popular. What sells the more vehicles? What is the bottom line? Grocery getters, or 300's/D-500's/etc?
The misconception of getting a 'family/comfortable ride' vehicle, (99.9%) installing a hi-performance drive train, and expecting the vehicle to have performance handling characteristics, doesn't work.
The EASIEST/CHEAPEST suspension performance upgrade, is simply, stiffer shocks, and front AND rear swaybars!
The CORRECT way, is a complete tubular A-arm, Polyurethane busining, independent suspension,,,, on and on, and on, until you have a 'Indy car, all out racing suspension, that will out perform any Viper/Corvette/Sportscar, etc. At a cost of a umpteengazzion $$.
THAT type of suspension, in the name of correct handling, is like killing a fly with a shotgun!
How far do you, and your pockets, want to go?!
Ok a happy medium. Some 'expect' 50 year old suspension design, with a simple set of radial tires to have better handling. It don't work like that.
OK Neil, lets take your '57. Lets say it came from the factory with NO front swaybar. You have a COMPLETE OEM re-built suspension!
You got those DB radial tires. They handle better than the OEM Bias. Meaning, now you can go into a certain turn at a faster speed than with the biased. (NOW I WANT YOU TO KEEP FOLLOWING ME HERE! Don't suddenly go off on one of yer tangents. Read ALL the way to the bottom!)
You think, mmmmmm,,,,,, if I now install a OEM front swaybar,,,,,,,, . MORE, IMPROVED handling! That same turn can now be taken at a higher speed. Here is where the misconception comes in. The "bigger is better" theory.
You now get rid of the soft OEM A-arm, OEM swaybar bushings, for stiffer, less give, urethane bushings. MORE improved handling! More speed into that same turn radius.
OEM rubber swaybar bushings have a built in, 2" give ratio. The vehicle gives 2" before the rubber starts to RE-act. How many rubber bushings are on the OEM framed MoPar swaybar's More than 6" of give. BUT, an improvement over nothing at all.
You now swap out the urethane bushings for the all out, POLY-urethane bushings! Better handling, able to get more speed into that same turn.
Now, you swap out the OEM diameter front swaybar for a stiffer, bigger, aftermarket diameter,,,,,,,,, less # of OEM bushings. Better handling, MORE speed into that same turn!
I'm going to stop here, for that is about as far as one can go with improvements to stock suspension.
OK, remember the part where I said, "Follow me"
You have improved the handling on your '57 so much now, that you are able to negotiate a certain radius/bank turn a considerable speed improvement!
What does all that extra speed now do to your existing suspension? Here is where it's gets scary. You have improved, up-graded, only part of the suspension. NOT ALL of it.
The faster you go into the same turn, more weight/stress is now put on the OUTSIDE, FRONT, suspension! From the tire into the frame, and everything in between.
The faster you can go, the more weight is transferred on that outside front, untill two things will happen. Something on the outside front will break, or the INSIDE REAR TIRE will lift off the ground!
There are TWO easy, feasible solutions. Slow down, or get the rear planted, so it don't lift. One thing will do that. (It's NOT stiffer rear springs. The ONLY thing stiffer rear springs will do is,,,,,, carry more downward weight ,or haul more of a load.) A REAR SWAYBAR!!!! PERIOD!!! Try it Neil. IT WORKS!!!!
Now. This suspension improvements/upgrades, is like a drug, the more one feels the improvements the more you want, the faster you can now safely negotiate a turn! As I said how far do you want to go?
A REAR swaybar in CONJUNCTION with stiffer rear springs,,,,, notice the keyword is "CONJUNCTION WITH", will now keep the rear from rising up!!
What is the best/cheapest/easiest rear swaybar upgrade? A 1" dia, '80-'96, full sized, Bronco rear bar, will ALMOST, BOLT ON to the framed MoPars! Either, an "L" bracket must be welded on the Mope frame, or an EXISTING hole in the frame enlarged, and a 3/4" OD, 1/2" ID piece of pipe welded in that hole so the boxed frame won't collapse when the Bronco link bolt mount is tightened down.
You can get those Bronco bar at you favorite U-pullit yard for $20 or so.
Now, if you want to go to Addico, PST, or a number of other aftermarket places and pay a couple of hundred dollars for a rear bar kit, it's up to you.
The ONLY upgrade needed to the Bronco bar is a urethane bushing kit.
Guy on here several yeas ago had a Red '58 Fury, did a upgrade aftermarket front bar kit, and a Bronco rear bar. AND could beat/keep up, with the "Jelly-bean" Impala SS's in the auto cross!
So, your statement Neil, of the rear wheel rising off the ground in a turn, is NOT from installing a rear bar. It's TOO much up-grade to the front and nothing to the rear!
I hope this explained it to you ,where you can now understand. If not. Get this booklet. "Handling. What it is, and how to get it" Addico puts it out. A WEALTH OF INFORMATION!!!!
Now, the synthetic oil. Again, he sez, she sez. It's gotta be good or there would be so many 'factory fills' recommendations!
Will "I" run any synthetics? HELL NO!!!! The ONLY way I will use a synthetic is if it's given to me. Then I'll dump in on my dirt road to keep the dust down. I have had NOTHING but bad luck with Synthetic's! Leak, NOT properly lubricate, etc.
Harley recommends Synthetic in the Twin Cams. I changed my Trans fill from semi-synthetic to full H-D synthetic. Supposed to be easier shifting, cooler running temps. Went out riding one night, rear started wobbling. Thought I had a rear flat. Here the fully synthetic leaked past the seal and got over the rear tire.
Have Amsoil in wifeys' Bronco. Bearings went out.
Ask just about ALL of the owner operators around here. Synthetic is a Communist plot against the US! LOL 99% use Lucas with regular dino, in the big trucks.
Mo/Corncob has a "Pete" and uses synthetics. I won't!
So I AGREE with your synthetic oil in an older vehicle statmemt. But, my statements against synthetics is ONLY by experience. NOT any scientific merit. Only opnion! | |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 5139
Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | Where did you get that " MO uses synthetic in his Pete truck" from??? been sucking on that moonshine again??? Only thing I will use synthetic oil in is my Harley because it was engineered for synthetics. I will not use Synthetic in anything not designed for it. I like that fake oil, but I don't think it should be SO expensive.......................MO | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1060
Location: Building incorrect cars since 2000!! | can man you have made me tired ready all of that. Being from WVA that must be the longest thing you have wrote
but it was a good explanation
i don't believe in using the fake oil either my rx7 and rx8 rotory will burn up if you use that stuff in them --good ole texas tea is what my motors require. | |
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Wise Old Village Idiot
Posts: 3591
Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | MOPAR-TO-YA - 2008-10-01 2:28 PM
Where did you get that " MO uses synthetic in his Pete truck" from???
'You' told me, a long time ago!
It cost me a couple of hundred in parts, and another hundred to take my trans to a buddy to get him in install a new seal kit, flush out Harley's full synthetic. I installed that stuff Blue-Ray makes for Harley trans! Never had a leak afterwards! | |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Since this website is nothing, if not argumentative, I've just located and sent to Cleeve, for posting here, one of
my references for the advisability of having ONLY a front sway bar being installed on our cars.
In the spirit of he said/she said, please post your own editorial publishing (not that that might be conclusive, to everyone!)
which might contradict this editorial commentary.........
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Location: .Norfolk..Mafia.. ,England UK | d500neil - 2008-10-03 11:41 PM
Since this website is nothing, if not argumentative, I've just located and sent to Cleeve, for posting here, one of
my references for the advisability of having ONLY a front sway bar being installed on our cars.
In the spirit of he said/she said, please post your own editorial publishing (not that that might be conclusive, to everyone!)
which might contradict this editorial commentary.........
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01.jpg (108KB - 215 downloads)
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7401
Location: northern germany | d500neil - 2008-10-03 6:41 PM
In the spirit of he said/she said, please post your own editorial publishing (not that that might be conclusive, to everyone!)
which might contradict this editorial commentary.........
hmm, so we have here a 1960 magazine article writen by...? its amazing car manufacturers in the past 48 years could have saved MILLIONS of dollars if their engineers had read that article! --- | |
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Wise Old Village Idiot
Posts: 3591
Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | Neil. There is a EXCELLENT/EASY solution to this 'scenario.'
If you feel deep in your heart, that if you install a 'rear' sway bar on your car, the inside rear tire will lift off the ground while negotiating a turn,,,,,.
Then by ALL means,,,, DON'T DO IT! Simple.
I have prooved to myself, along with reading, a rear bar does keep the 'hind end planted' in corning.
(However, all those rear bars you don't want to use, send 'em to me, I sure can put 'em to use.) LOL | |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Ahhh; there are none so blind as he who WILL not see, or read, or comprehend.
This article was written by the technical editor of Motor Life magazine, and, I have read and do have, stored away
in my shed, a similar article written by Richard Ehrenberg, technical editor of MoPar Action, wherein he reiterates
that a FRONT sway bar is all that we need, on our rear wheel drive front-end heavy cars.
A rear sway bar will tend to induce understeer, or straight-ahead plowing of our cars.
I don't give anything away for free, except advice, or to someone who is truly needy, in my opinion.
As Rick does not NEED a rear sway bar, if I had one, I would not give it to him (sorry Rick).
And as for Sid (poor guy) , he remains infatuated with the concept of installing synthetic gear oil into our differentials.
Read my fingers: NO rear sway bars, or synthetic rear end gear oil, is/are needed on our cars.
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Expert 5K+
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Location: northern germany | d500neil - 2008-10-06 3:02 PM
A rear sway bar will tend to induce understeer, or straight-ahead plowing of our cars.
I don't give anything away for free, except advice,
And as for Sid (poor guy) , he remains infatuated with the concept of installing synthetic gear oil into our differentials.
Read my fingers: NO rear sway bars, or synthetic rear end gear oil, is/are needed on our cars.
yes i'm a poor guy but i know the difference between UNDERSTEER and OVERSTEER, YOU DON'T! SO PLEASE IF YOU DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND THESE SIMPLE TERMS STOP GIVING AWAY FREE TECHNICAL ADVICE SOMEONE COULD BELIEVE WHAT YOU SAY! PLEASE STICK TO DECODING DATAPLATES! THANK YOU!
PS EVEN YOUR "ARTICLE" SAYS REAR SWAY BARS INCREASE OVERSTEER YET YOU ARE INSISTING REAR SWAY BARS INDUCE UNDERSTEER??? I KNOW YOU NEVER ANSWER A QUESTION WHEN YOU GET STUCK IN A DISCUSSION BUT CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT????
Edited by 1960fury 2008-10-06 3:41 PM
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7401
Location: northern germany | d500neil - 2008-10-06 3:02 PM
A rear sway bar will tend to induce understeer, or straight-ahead plowing of our cars.
just for you neil read slowly please: breaking away of the rear wheels (to quote your article,caused by a rear sway bar) in a curve is called
OVERSTEER.
i hope you got it now?
Edited by 1960fury 2008-10-06 3:43 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Thank you, Sid, now, can YOU say; "no rear sway bar is needed on our cars"? | |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7401
Location: northern germany | d500neil - 2008-10-06 4:08 PM
Thank you, Sid, now, can YOU say; "no rear sway bar is needed on our cars"?
NO neil because the article, although it tells partially the truth, does not tell the whole story. rear sway bars on banjo axle cars limit camber change, reduce self steer, improve straight line traction, make leaf spring bushings last longer, add safety (in case a spring breaks) and reduce body roll which means it reduces the lift of the rear end, which again improves traction (thats what the the writer of your article forgot) for every bit the rear end goes up there is less weight on the rear wheels. but yes, as i said in a previous post, REAR sway bars have the tendency to increase OVERSTEER (good drivers btw prefer tail happy cars over understeering cars) and a FRONT sway bar has the tendency to increase UNDERSTEER yet both improve handling. neil you don't have to understand this but the simple fact that car manufacturers (ENGINEERS) added and still add rear sway bars to front engine rwd cars remains. that alone should tell you what is right or wrong.
Edited by 1960fury 2008-10-06 5:47 PM
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Wise Old Village Idiot
Posts: 3591
Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | Go, Sic-'em Sid!! Whoo-Haw
You might as well forget it. NO amount of convincing, showing, explaining, is gonna change Neil's mind. He won't have a rear sway bar up his azz, if he had room for a freight train! So, let him go.
YOU, know a rear bar works, "I" know a rear bar works, there are several on here that knows a rear bar works, and is laughing at Neil's comments.
Let Neil be content that he's convincing the newbies on here, that a rear bar isn't needed. GOOD FOR HIM!!!
That is one less person that will cabbage a rear bar off a junk yard car. More bars for you and I, and those, that know the 'geometry' of suspensions!
Now Sid. Try and convince ME that synthetic, or fake, lubricants are good for, ANY vehicle! (Well, except, maybe for the Corvettes)
I'll be just as stubborn, and bull headed, as Neil! I don't care if you got umpteenbazillion miles on one drop of fake oil!
To me, fake oil is only good for one thing. Keeping dust down on a dirt road!
You got beer over there right? Octoberfest! I bet NO respecting West German would be caught dead drinking 'near beer' That is what we call that light beer. Lite beer is the same as that fake oil. Close enough, but ,not quite the real thing.
Now, stick 'that' in yer pipe and smoke it! | |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7401
Location: northern germany | alumcanTandThd - 2008-10-06 5:16 PM
Now Sid. Try and convince ME that synthetic, or fake, lubricants are good for, ANY vehicle!
LOL canman i don't even try | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1060
Location: Building incorrect cars since 2000!! | Its a shame that people with realworld knowledge get driven off this site by bookworm fools
its good to see sid and canman(hillbilly from WVA) know how suspension is done!!
Canman I would expect this from you they probally put sway bars on them trailer axles in wva not to metion the double wides  | |
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Expert
Posts: 2824
Location: Snohomish, WA. | Every suspension book I've ever read agree with Canman and Sid. Just because E-booger or someone else puts it in print doesn't gospel it make. E-booger won't even answer emails anymore unless you contribute to his divorce fund (a reason I no longer subscribe, by the way). How honest is he gonna be about a suspension issue?
The priciples of weight coming off a tire affecting the G-forces it can hold in standard gravity are not suspended solely because Neils doesn't believe it applies to his car. Printed words, Neil, can be wrong too, just as a newby on a car line can do something different during his shift. The resultant cars off the line that day are still just as correct as the cars before them and after them.
A car with properly distributed weight on the wheels will hold a turn better than an imbalanced car of the same model. Like Sid said, Detroit would have dropped rear anti-sway bars in a heartbeat if they weren't needed. Hell, they dropped the Hemi gen1 for a savings of only a few bucks back "in the day". A Rear sway bar wouldn't have been missed after ten minutes.
Mike | |
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Location: northern germany | 1960fury - 2008-10-01 6:35 AM
60 Plymouth - 2008-09-30 8:00 PM
SID
where did you get your sway bar?
If you have any pics that would be great.
had them custom made. will post pictures soon.
after 10 years on the fl site i finally got me a camera to post pics here and after hours of struggling i even somehow succeeded uploading the pics to my computer ! but looks like i aint have enough brane cells left to downsize em. they are too big and i can't post em. sorry, i keep trying | |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
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Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | Hi Sid! I have used a program called ACDSee for years and I'm really pleased with the simpicity and usability of it. I foud this free download of older versions http://www.download.com/ACDSee-Photo-Manager/3000-12511_4-10000041.... (I still run the version 5.0).
The ACDSee program is very fast and you can downsize, upsize, adjust colours, turn picures (even mirror) - I really recommend it. | |
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Location: northern germany | thanks, will try... | |
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Location: Building incorrect cars since 2000!! | I feel your pain i have been there too. I use adobe photoshop to do mine It is a little bit of a process to get them smaller. | |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
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Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | Try ACDSee you too - really easy - done in a few seconds | |
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Location: Netherlands | Just sign up at www.photobucket.com and upload your pics to your account and have them resize the pics fully automatic during the upload. No swaybars needed in the process...! :D
Edited by BigBlockMopar 2008-10-14 6:00 PM
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Expert
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Location: Snohomish, WA. | Another photo trick that Kenny J taught me was emailing them to myself. XP and I believe 98 have a way of doing it if you use outlook for email. Vista has a dedicated itty-bitty-teeeeensey-weeeeensey little button you click (once you find it) in outlook for choosing the picture sizing option. Works like a champ and no new program to install/learn.
Mike | |
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Location: Netherlands | Ok, how about just using www.tinypic.com then?
It doesn't come any easier then this folks.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Mike brings up a valid point, about not necessarily believing anything you read, including this screed, but, from my
own multi-year DRIVING experience, with having HD front strut bushings (only available at Just Suspension), "HD"/optional
heavier-thicker Coronet/Royal Torsion bars, the factory CRL/wagon sway bar, gas-filled shocks front and rear, and with
6-full leaf springs (5-shortest from a donor 62 CHRY wagon), I managed to destroy the front wheel bearings (and trashed one of
the two 11x3" brake-compatible wheel spindles---damaged but didn't destroy the other one---by my having enjoyed CORNERING
my car, and having experienced a joyful neutral-to-oversteer handling response, and at a very-flat cornering angle.
I can kick-out the car's rear end by giving it some gas, even now. with its mighty 2.76:1 rear end gearset.
I do not, however, drive it as energetically as before, around corners, knowing what can happen to the wheel bearings.
So, you want to spend (waste) your money on installing a rear sway bar; be my guest. You HAVE been advised...
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Location: Snohomish, WA. | Uhhhh............Neil...........uhmmmmmmmm...........Yer 'sposed to put grease in them wheel bearings. Then they don't do that.
Mike | |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | ...Maybe the way that YOU drive (safe and sane) , Mike...LOL...
I enjoy driving my car--or, at least I used to; I used to drive it around corners because it didn't 'plow'; it
turned and cornered (without a rear sway bar) in whatever direction I wanted it to go.
Didn't realize that I was chewing up the wheel bearings!
On another closely-related subject, I also had the carburetor be modified, as per Carter specs, so that about 85% of
the left-hand uphill fuel-bowl wash out has been eliminated.
You haven't lived, til you've thrown your car into a nice left-hand turning maneuver, and have the engine die/starve from
lack of gas getting into the intake manifold.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | ..I've owned my car since 10/80, so I've had ample opportunity to play with it, and to dial-in its handling.
Besides having the steering gearbox be overhauled, my alignment shop, after the front end was tightened up
and rebuilt, was able to install a killer hands-off/no dead-area, positive-caster alignment for self-centering action.
That situation makes for fun cornering; no guessing about possible under-over steering input, or correction.
No joke: a guy came into town, visiting, a few years ago, with his 57 CRL 2-dr.
It was all that I could do, to keep it running in a straight line, down Main Street, at 35 MPH!!
Oh, yeah: also meant to add that, a few years ago, I experimented with the installation of a 3.55:1
(80's 8 3/4 truck rear end) Sure Grip, as I wanted to see how the car would perform.
A little more low-end performance (3.36:1 open is standard) but a LOT more o.a. operational
noise, and the MPG went from 13-ish to 10-ish...
Sold that rear end to Ray Bell, in AUS, and bought Brent Burger's erstwhile 2.76:1 open rear end.
Still not sure of its highway MPG improvement, over the 3.36:1, but, the car sure is QUIET now
and smooth. I can drive the car in all three gears, but DO have to accelerate rapidly by keeping
it in "1" , up to about 35-40 , before punching "2", which keeps on pulling up to I-dunno-how-far...
Edited by d500neil 2008-10-15 8:33 PM
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Location: Building incorrect cars since 2000!! | Cheap bearings and cheap carbs!! | |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | ..can't argue with that, Aaron, except that our cars were never designed for gymkhanas (sp?)---see, I can't even
SPELL that word-lolol--- | |
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Location: northern germany | 60 Plymouth - 2008-10-14 2:42 PM
I feel your pain i have been there too. I use adobe photoshop to do mine It is a little bit of a process to get them smaller.
yeah pain is the word, i absolutly HATE computers! i prefer downsizing things with a torch or grinder.... but i think, i made it, pictures follow. | |
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Location: northern germany | finally here are pics of my 60 fury coupes sway bars i modified for roadracing. my car had the 3/4" stock sway bar and i tried the 7/8" 300/wagon bar without success there is no way you can make your car handle perfect even with the strongest OE torsionbars. the stock sway bars suck, they are not only undersized they are also of a bad design since the sway bar frame mounts are mounted way too close to the cars centerline further reducing efficiency.
when i do a modifcation i do it the way the factory should have done it in the first place, i don't like shortcuts so i had a set of sway bars custom made for my car. i fabricated brackets and welded them to the frame and strutrods to mount the bar as far outboard as possible without restricting the cars turning radius, another plus is the use of standard polyurethane sway bar links and bushings (1.1/8"). as you can see the sway bar is well protected by the front crossmember. the brakes btw (front/rear) are 12.19" wilwood vented disk brakes with aluminum rotor hats, calipers, brackets with stock 1960 hubs, wheel bearings, spindles, rear axle. i'm running lightweight wheels (16"x 8" aluminum smoothies), light weight brakes, poly bushings, HD torsion bars, HD leaf springs with upsidedown gas shocks and i lightened the cars front end with aluminum parts and moved the battery to the right rear trunk, giving a perfect weight distribution. this car drives like a cart, its like glued to the road, it sounds funny but the limiting factor is not the suspension system, its the benchseat! although i'm no wimp i can hardly hold myself behind the wheel in a fast lh curve. i never drove a regular car that corners faster. its light weight with low center of gravity, wide track, perfect weight distribution, powerfull 383 with a ram air system is hard to beat, so far i have never lost a race against late model sedans including bmw and mercedes v8s. tight radius curves or 150 mph on the autobahn it handles great. i restored the car 20 years ago and it has been driven almost daily so everything looks a little ratty, sorry.
Edited by 1960fury 2008-10-16 4:17 PM
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frontswaybar6s.jpg (23KB - 206 downloads)
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Location: northern germany | here pics from the rear, although it looks tight and there are no tailpipes there is plenty enough room left for 2.1/2" pipes. funny thing there are 4 corresponding holes in the body from the factory that lined up perfectly with my sway bar design and i didn't have to drill any holes into the body to mount the sway bar brackets.
Edited by 1960fury 2008-10-16 4:14 PM
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rearswaybar1s.jpg (72KB - 210 downloads)
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Location: northern germany | 61plymy - 2008-10-15 7:28 PM
Uhhhh............Neil...........uhmmmmmmmm...........Yer 'sposed to put grease in them wheel bearings. Then they don't do that.
Mike
correct, 300 000 miles on my front bearings, never caused any problems. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1060
Location: Building incorrect cars since 2000!! | Sid
I want a set
Can you get more made? looks good | |
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Expert
Posts: 3575
Location: Netherlands | I like the 'simplicity' of your front swaybar.
I've been working on mounting an upgraded swaybar aswell on my '60 NY, but it didn't work out as easy as I hoped for so I put it aside for the time being.
I'm using a B-body swaybar (at least I believe it is). I've been trying to use the factory mounting points for the swaybar but I like your solution also.
Edited by BigBlockMopar 2008-10-16 6:20 PM
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Location: northern germany | 60 Plymouth - 2008-10-16 5:27 PM
Sid
I want a set
Can you get more made? looks good
i put them on many years ago. i must have the drawings with measurements somewhere i could mail to you, if i find them... | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1060
Location: Building incorrect cars since 2000!! | That would be great. What did you have them bent out of? I need to get that done as I am assb the car
Would like it to handle better than stock since I have all that motor i plan on going fast | |
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| what bar did you use for the rear sway? | |
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Location: northern germany | mikes2nd - 2017-12-17 10:20 PM
what bar did you use for the rear sway?
old thread! if that was meant for me, i had it fabricated so it fits they way like from the factory, as i meantioned above.
any good spring shop should be able to help, very simple 2 dimensional design. this is all i found, its mote than 25 years ago!!!
metric measurements. gerade=straight. biegung=bend (wheel end large radius, other small radius). 15/16" (about 24mm) diameter bar works good.
this works for any 118wb 60/61 mopars and probably for any other 57-61 fls (imperial maybe excepted).
feel free to copy, but keep in mind you need a healthy frontbar first!
Edited by 1960fury 2017-12-26 7:00 PM
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Location: northern germany | ps i forgot the white triangle apearing thing in the picures above is a reinforcement i had to weld it after a couple of years, as i noticed the bar was causing the trunk floor to flex a bit.
this is the best design. there are sway bars that run along the axle, these only unnecessarily increase unsprung weight and there are sway bars that mount in front of the axle, these, if they break, can drop one end to the floor and can make your car pole vaulting.
Edited by 1960fury 2017-12-26 7:12 PM
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