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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
   
Location: bishop, ca | I can never remember if we, of the Hemi persuasion, are supposed to install the long-resistor
spark plugs (as they sit well into the combustion chamber), or the shorter one (which might
have a more uniform flame-front, around the c.c.) .
Also, is there any "universally" recommended (hotter-range, probably, for around-town driving)
spark plug, which would be resistant to oil fouling?
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Location: N.W. Fla. | Chr 331 with round ex ports take short reach plugs, all oval ex port Chr. take long reach plugs. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | OK; what about the Doggies?
The 315/325 Hemi heads have round exhaust ports; the Polys have what: oval-or-square-ish?
I thought that the long-reach plugs were supposed to have an efficiency-advantage, over the shorties.
Length matters?
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Location: The not-so-great, dirty-white North ( Michigan) | Neil....My KD500-1 engine has OVAL exhaust ports on it, like late Chryslers and my 341 DeSoto.....The Dodge heads have casting number 1734049-1......take the short reach plugs like DeSotos as well. I plan to use the Bosch Platinums in them. Can't find the part number right now, but will post it here as an update when I do find it.
The 325 ploy heads do have a squarish exhaust port. IIRC, they use the long reach plugs. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Hank, your engine is a D501 (354 Chrysler block/ Hemi-heads), which is different from the 1956-1957 315-325 block/ Hemi- heads(which do have round exhaust ports).
OK, but why would the Poly want a longie, but the Hemi need a shortie?
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Location: N.W. Fla. | My comments were on the Chr 331/354/392 Hemi only, don't know on Dodge/DeSoto, or Chr Poly.
Edited by Mopar1 2007-08-29 5:37 AM
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Location: The not-so-great, dirty-white North ( Michigan) | Neil...
My engine is a 325 DODGE Block KD500-1. Same as a 315 D500-1 with exception of carbs and manifold. My manifold has an exhaust crossover, and WCFBs are same as on the 57 DeSoto Adventurer. Oh, and that strange distributor with the opposite sex drive shaft (slot rather than tang - WHY????) with the complimentary intermediate gear/shaft that does have the tang. And the air cleaners are a pair of layovers, rather than that big Purolator oval type on D500-1s (and 1956 Plymouth Fury 303s).
I can take a picture of my exhaust ports on that head as proof, if you want!
So it is definitely NOT a KD501 (Dodge version of 1956 354CID 300B engine).
The longer plug thread length on the poly heads was because they had to go from the outside wall near the exhaust ports into the chamber, and that required a longer thread reach to get there. The hemi went straight down, so it did not need the length. At least my Dodge and my DeSoto heads are like that.
Regarding that Bosch Spark Plug. It is a WR9FP plug. This is what I referenced against an original Autolite 4S-250 plug that my Adventurer, and the D500-1/KD500-1 used. That plug was different than the ones used on Fireflite/Firedomes (or regular D500/KD500).
BTW...what is the casting number for the heads on your KD500? Maybe more was different between the engines than is seen at first glance!
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 Spark Plug Cross-Reference.zip (357KB - 316 downloads)
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Location: Warren, Michigan | d500Neil,
A restorer should only use the plug that is listed in the factory service manual. Anything else is not accurate and heresy.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Ok, so Hank, in 1957 there was only the "D500"-stamped 325 c.i. engine block. It was actually the same casting, as for
any other 325 V/8 engine.
From the engine stamping, it is not possible to determine whether that particular block had a single, or dual carb(s) installed
on it.
As you know, it is virtually impossible, failing a physical manipulation of the micro-fische machine, at the Historical Society, and scrolling through all the engine numbers which are shown in the IBM card-copies, to locate any particular engine-number, & thereby confirm whether its D500-car
came equipped as a "Super D500", or not, and they all are I.D.'ed as being stamped :" KD500-1xxx"
The 1956 race-car version of the D500 was stamped D500-1-1xxx ; otherwize, the regular-production engines were stamped "D500-1xxx"
SO: what exactly IS its engine number, and, you say that your distributor shaft is a notched "female-end", and not the standard extended-notch
"male-end"????
It does sound like you have a 1957 Super D500 engine; back in 1991 I was granted a private 'audience' with Barbara Rosenbusch and
the other gentleman, there (forget his name, right now: "Grant"???) to go thru the place, as part of a book project I was researching
on 1953-1961 Hemi/D500's----anyway; the micro-fische IS there , and it WOULD be possible (if the right people could be so-induced)
to have someone scroll-thru the fisches, and FIND your engine's car, as the casting date, and the stamping number, itself, would
narrow down the search to maybe 1000 cars, or less!
BUT, to go back to my initial question, the SHORT-tipped spark plug is what I should install, huh? I'm pretty sure that I've got
platinum-resistor plugs in it, right now, but, I'm thinking about pulling/checking them, soon.
I know that I've used both 'reaches', during my custodianship, of my car.
The casting-numbers on the heads are hidden by the intake runners; the heads should have different numbers, between 1956 & 1957.
SHORTIES, huh???
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Location: The not-so-great, dirty-white North ( Michigan) | Neil.....
Block as I recalled (its tucked away in a storage building) had KD500-xxxxxx on it.
BUT, above the "KD500 - " was another "1" stamped into the block. Above the " - " (kind of close to the last "0" in KD500. I need to see if I can find the file I started on this engine.
The history I have is I got it from a guy who lived in Iowa City, IA. He thought it was a DeSoto Adventurer engine when I talked with him, and so I travelled to Iowa from Michigan with a trailer to get it from him. It turned out NOT to be a 341 as this guy thought, but instead the KD500-1.
I bought it from him anyways, as the "baby" hemi has always intrigued me, and he I think just wanted to dispose of it.
The tale he told me was that his father put it into a 1957 Plymouth after spinning a bearing in the Plymouth's engine. That was in I think 1962 or so. The Plymouth engine was pulled to rebuild, but his father never got around to it until around 1979 or so. Both he and his father pulled this engine back out, and put the Plymouth engine back into it at that time. This engine went into a corner of his grandfather's barn.
Fast forward to around 2002. His Dad has died and left him the Plymouth, which he is in process of doing some restoration on. His Grandfather's farm is being sold to developers, and the barn is being cleared before it is torn down by the developers (another farm bites the dust for houses!). This engine gets pulled from beneath a pile of whatever, and I find out he has it from a mutual friend.
So I really cannot vouch for where the engine came from originally. But it evidently came from a Dodge early in its life, and lived in a Plymouth from early 60s until about 1980. It was pretty complete, with exception of exhaust manifolds were missing, as was the generator and the front dress pulleys.
My plans are to try and turn this into a boat engine eventually, so as to have something different than the odd Ch3vy V6 or V8 you see everywhere, since it really has no home.
With that, I have to say that I still need to find some Dodge Royal Marine (M44S) 270 water exhaust manifolds, if you happen to know where I might locate some......
Oh, and finally...your original Autolite Spark Plug for your engine (KD500) is: AR42.
The "Dash One" plug is a 4S250 plug, same as for 1956. I also have looked again at my Chilton's and it also shows either AR52 or AR42 for the poly head in 1957, so that is also a "shortie" plug. My mistake!
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Funny thing: I actually scored some NOS Autolite (that's BEFORE Ford bought-out Autolite, which had been an independent company)
AR42's; put em in the car, and it ran like CRAP; ALSO, I bought some date-coded-NOS MoPar spark plug wires from
Mitchell, & they too made the car run shiytty. I've got some black Hi-Po Mope wires on it, now, & dunno which plugs, but, along
with the EFI system, all is well....
I think that your KD500-1- might actually be KD500-1 , with the "1" merely being the normal-first digit OF the other engine-
production-sequence numbers; that "1" actually looks like a capital "I" , in the shape/form of that particular stamping die.
STILL, it'll be fun to see what you've really got, there!
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Location: The not-so-great, dirty-white North ( Michigan) | d500neil - 2007-08-29 9:14 PM
I've got some black Hi-Po Mope wires on it, now, & dunno which plugs, but, along
with the EFI system, all is well....
I think that your KD500-1- might actually be KD500-1 , with the "1" merely being the normal-first digit OF the other engine-
production-sequence numbers; that "1" actually looks like a capital "I" , in the shape/form of that particular stamping die.
Neil...
So you have EFI on your KD500? Interesting, considering that mine I am also converting to EFI (along with a Eaton M112 Supercharger and water-to-water intercooler). Hey, in a boat, PLENTY of water for that kind of intercooling. Once I finish off the Adventurer, its my next project, but I am still collecting pieces and making parts right now.
Best thing is, I can roll my own code, given that I have access to SW tools and the code base for the ECM I plan to use.....
About my ID stamp...I have TWO "I" stamps (the Chrysler stamp for the numeral "1" in the ID).
As I said, one is ABOVE the DASH, and the other is the first number in the ID. Just can't remember the whole number right now, or I would regurg it to you.
Oh, the "I" above the DASH is also smaller than the one in the numeric engine number following the DASH.
The engine has (had) a hydraulic camshaft, but has the adjustible rocker arms and the bumped valve covers.
So I still figure its an actual KD500-1 engine from the get-go, but who knows. It came out of a Plymouth as last home, and the guy who sold it to me, his father and grandfather could have done mods to that thing before the install in the Plymouth....... |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | The 56 D500's had mechanical lifters; 57's had hydraulics (with the bumps---I've retrofitted tubular adjustable pushrods, too.
OOPS; I "said" E.F.I.; I MEANT to say : E.I. (electronic ignition!!!)
What presently scares me, is the talk about how an E.I. can/will fail suddenly & w/o prior warning. I had a points dissie made up, to drop-in, before I went to Tulsa. Haven't needed to use it, but it's nice to know that I've got back-up, sitting in the trunk.
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Location: Apeldoorn, Netherlands | d500neil - 2007-08-29 12:35 AM I can never remember if we, of the Hemi persuasion, are supposed to install the long-resistor spark plugs (as they sit well into the combustion chamber), or the shorter one (which might have a more uniform flame-front, around the c.c.). A picture can tell a thousand words. Here are some interesting ones I took off of eBay once.
 (4cf0_3.jpg)
 (4da4_3.jpg)
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Location: snoqualmie, wa | But is the same for all the blocks or just the chrysler? my 55 dodge mini hemi had short reach 3/8 in it when it came to live at my house and i'm guessing my wife's grandpa was using the right things - i doubt they'd been changed since the late 70's early 80's... I've looked at the 55 chrysler service manual on the imperial club site as there are several useful things that arethe same - that manual makes a note of using the 3/4 in hemi and the shorties in the poly - but i've been told (like hank said above) that the dodge/desoto is a different beast
Edited by 55royal 2007-09-21 1:37 AM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Casey, I can't see how we can go wrong, using the short-reach plugs, but, that was the reason for my initial posting.
I still don't know what my car is running; it's @ the shop, having a 2.76 rear end be installed. |
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Location: Apeldoorn, Netherlands | Funny thing is the '57 Dodge Shop Manual doesn't mention any difference between Red Ram (Poly) or D500, and says to use AR42. While the Owners Manual specifically says to use AR32 for the D500! Other thing I just learned is the Shop Manuals says to not use a gasket for D500..., for heat management purposes.
Edited by Jim Hoek 2007-09-21 5:16 PM
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Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | There is no way to use the short reach plug in lets say a 331 Hemi, it will not reach the CC, no gasket the tube serves that function. Why would anyone attempt to use the short plug where the long one is called for, am I missing something here? |
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Location: snoqualmie, wa | dave, i think the confusion is all about if the dodge/desoto called for a different reach than the chrysler blocks between the 3/8 and the 3/4.. also it dosen't help that most parts places don't really make the leap from poly to hemi - i bought a set of "correct" plug wires at napa for my v8 but they were for the poly not the hemi - same thing might be happening with pulg sourcing
neil forgive my ignorance but what year car are you working on?
Edited by 55royal 2007-09-22 2:43 AM
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Location: Apeldoorn, Netherlands | 55royal - 2007-09-22 8:39 AM neil forgive my ignorance but what year car are you working on? On behalf of Neil I can tell you we (he and I) share the same doggies: '57 Dodge D500. The Shop Manual as well as the Owners Manual is not very clear about it. Just says AR42 or AR32. I wouldn't know off of my head whether that AutoLite code includes reach. I'm looking into that later. I have many much more manuals and factory correpondence... |
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Location: Apeldoorn, Netherlands | Dodge Tech-Nek Topics January and February 1957 says Spark Plugs for D-500: AR-42 standard or AR-32 for high-speed driving.
Mopar Parts List 1955 - 1958 (publish. november 1957) says AR-32 for D-500 (and Adventurer).
Sun 1960 tune-up card says AR32 for 1957 D500 and AGR32 for 1957 D500-1
AutoLite equivalent for AR-32 is either 65, which has a 3/4" reach or 85 which has a 3/8" reach (there we go...):
http://www.power-21.com/honeywellpower21i/Application.aspx?b=A&vt=1
ow there's a 1958 Dodge Passenger Cars Technical Service Bulletin saying the '57 325 uses AR42 with a 3/8" reach whereas 3/4" reach AGR42 plugs are specified for the 1958 325. BTW, the 1958 350 and 361 cid uses AR42 on the Ram Fire and AR32 on the D-500 and Super D-500.
Here's a nice AutoLite cross reference:
http://www.autolite.com/pdf/auto_crossref_0311.pdf
NGK 3/4"reach:
http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/apps/car_truck_suv/results.asp?enginei...
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Location: Apeldoorn, Netherlands | Thanks Neil, for bringing this up. I have just now changed my plugs again, because I was not sure what I did about a years ago. I used the 3/8” reach w/gasket. I now remember: I did so because that is what was in it. The plugs now came out all burned and rusty, after just little over 3,000 miles. Of course! They couldn’t loose their heat because of to less contact with the cylinder heads. I now used the 3/4” reach, wo/gasket. The Autolite 65, nothing fancy. First: I can now have my wire covers back on again, because the wire thingies sinck just that little bit deeper as needed. Fine! And now how it performs. Wow! That makes a difference! Remember I told you about a week ago or so, how impressed I was with it’s performance? Well, now dig this! Okay. Of course, I changed the plugs, which always makes a difference. But this much... I am a little worried though, about the debris that must have fallen out of the tread while screwing in the long ones…
Edited by Jim Hoek 2007-09-22 12:43 PM
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Location: snoqualmie, wa | For what it's worth i went out and got the hottest 3/8 copper resistor plug i could that would fit - it was a champion rj12c (or maybe ry12c can't remember right now)- put just one it to see what would happen - well after about 30 mins of run time it is completley carbon fouled... could this be because it's too short>
Edited by 55royal 2007-09-23 2:17 AM
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Location: Apeldoorn, Netherlands | 55Royal, Here's a nice site featuring everything about Spark Plug Reading: http://www.4secondsflat.com/plug_chart.html http://www.4secondsflat.com/Spark_plug_reading.html
Edited by Jim Hoek 2007-09-23 3:25 AM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | SO, it appears that, for we small Hemiboys, we need to : "Get a LONG (spark-plug) Little Doggies" !!
Maybe I'll ask my shop, to pull a spark plug, and let me know what kind it is, its length, and its condition !
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Location: snoqualmie, wa | niel sounds good - would like to see what they say is in there -
Jim, my plug looks pretty much like #3 and #5 - the entire thing electrode, strap, insulator - all totally black and sooty but not shiny wet.
Edited by 55royal 2007-09-24 1:12 AM
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Location: The not-so-great, dirty-white North ( Michigan) | Casey...rands.
I have two sets of Dodge Hemi heads...Both take the 3/8" reach spark plug.
By the way, a RJ12C plug is pretty cold. A 14 is hotter.
I posted an execl file on spark plug interchange earlier.
I would reference this for competing brands.
Also, the Adventurer in 1956 used a 4S250 spark plug..... |
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Location: Apeldoorn, Netherlands | DeSotohead - 2007-09-24 5:33 I have two sets of Dodge Hemi heads...Both take the 3/8" reach spark plug. According to the factory litrature, earlye Dodge Hemi's did take the 3/8" reach. Later take 3/4" reach. Of course a 3/8" will fit in 3/4" reach heads, but not the other way around. Did Dodge Hemi Heads differ through the years? Has anybody have any heads lying around, to check for us? |
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Location: The not-so-great, dirty-white North ( Michigan) | My heads are for D-500/KD500....Casting number 1734049-1 (PN 1734048).
These take 3/8" reach spark plugs.....
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Location: Apeldoorn, Netherlands | DeSotohead - 2007-09-24 6:29 PM My heads are for D-500/KD500....Casting number 1734049-1 (PN 1734048). These take 3/8" reach spark plugs..... But do they also take 3/4" reach? Here are some freebies, the factory documents about long reach spark plugs I mentioned here before Dodge Tech-Nek Topics January and February 1957, "Spark Plugs D-500", starting on bottom p.2:
http://www.forwardlook.eu/Dodge/TNT/Dodge_Tech_Nek_Topics,_vol_2,_no_1.pdf Dodge Technical Service Bulletin about "New Long Reach Spark Plugs":
http://www.forwardlook.eu/Dodge/TSB/Dodge_TSB_October_18,_1957.pdf Dodge Technical Service Bulletin, "D-500 Service Specifications":
http://www.forwardlook.eu/Dodge/TSB/Dodge_TSB_March_1,_1957.pdf Sun 1960 tune-up card:
http://www.forwardlook.eu/Dodge/TU/Sun_Tune-up.pdf
Edited by Jim Hoek 2007-09-24 2:02 PM
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Location: The not-so-great, dirty-white North ( Michigan) | Jim...
The only way I think I would trust a 3/4" reach plug is if I put one into one of my heads, and then used a compression tool to open the intake and exhaust valves and look for the point at which it either hits the plug or coil bind for the spring.
Measuring lift with a micrometer depth gauge on the valve.
I can then compare this to my lift specs for the camshaft and determine if I have an issue (of course, not hitting plug by spring bind is a "no-brainer", as we call it)
I think the chamber is tall enough that the longer reach plug would not impact the piston top (flat) except if someone installed an extended reach plug with a 3/4" long threaded body.....
You might try making a depth gauge from a sprk plug shell with a threaded rod in it, and screw that into a cylinder that you have set to TDC.
The crank the rod until it touches the piston crown. Back off one turn (piston grows when hot), and then remove the gauge and measure from rod end to upper step bore surface of the plug body.
Then measure this against any plug you install. This will tell you if you have an issue with plug to piston clearance. Valve to plug requires my previous method....
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Well, I've asked my shop, which is installing Brent Burger's former 2.76 rear end, to pull a plug for me, & tell
me what, zactly, I'm running, cause, whatever it is, it's GOOD for open road driving (which is pretty-much all
we've got out here, in the hinterlands, and, at around 4k' (+) elevation.) |
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Location: The not-so-great, dirty-white North ( Michigan) | OK guys...
I just referenced the "AR32" plug to a Champion RF9YC plug.
This beast has a thread depth of 0.460" according to my XLS cross-reference sheet.
MUCH shorter than 0.750" of the long depth plug. closer to the 0.380" of the "short" plug....
Here is the interchange link....
http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/spark-plug-cross-reference.ht... |
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Long necked Spark plugs?
