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Expert
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Location: Lemoore CA | The three speed manual transmissions used from 57-59, how many differen't kinds were there? Was the same transmission used for the 6 and 8 cylinder models? |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 915
Location: Pau, S-W France | There was several Torqueflite used but it's difficult to know without the factory number engraved on the oil rail pan.
I haven't all parts manual but i'm 99 % sure that there was no Torqueflite used on 6 cyl. passengers cars. Some Torqueflite, named Loadflite were used on Dodge trucks (6 or 8).
Differnences between transmissions are internal : the heavy duty Tqf were used on heavy and powerful cars as New Yorker, Imperial or 300's. These trans have a 5 disc unit in rear clutches and are water cooled . The sport cars (as 300 , Adventurer etc..) had a different governor so they upshift at higher speed.
Just an example, in 1957 there were 10 different part number production transmissions (but only 4 part number service units !) only on passenger cars. |
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Expert
Posts: 2338
Location: central oklahoma! | good to hear from you again, phil! too bad you didn't make it to tulsa, i would have loved to have met you! |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 852
Location: Etters Pa | I count 4 different NON OD 3 speed manual transmissions used in 57-59 cars
1823656
1853849
1738232
1853841 cast 93471
There looks to length differences as well as shifter linkage changes that may need to be done depending on from what to what applications. Differences in 6 or 8cyl applications look to depend on year and model. For instance one year Dodge 6 trans was used in Plymouth with V8's
Edited by BHWINC 2007-11-03 12:28 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 915
Location: Pau, S-W France | 59savoy - 2007-11-03 5:42 PM
good to hear from you again, phil! too bad you didn't make it to tulsa, i would have loved to have met you!
Thanks, i would have been there ..
Very sorry to haven't read well the title and post a message about automatic : when i saw "3 speeds" i thought at the 3 speed automatic ...
On my parts manual i have the following transmission:
Strut type synchronizer
1676 202 Canada, Dodge D64 D65, Plymouth P30, P31. less O.D Exc. suburban
1676 201 Canada, Dodge D64 D65, Plymouth P30, P31. less O.D suburban
1676 203 Canada, Dodge D64 D65, Plymouth P30, P31. with overdrive
Pin type synchronizer
1823 658 US Dodge D64 D65, Plymouth P30, P31. less O.D Exc. suburban
1823 656 US Dodge D64 D65, Plymouth P30, P31. suburban, less O.D. Dodge D72
1738 232 US Dodge D66, 67, 70 , 71 , Desoto S25 , 26. Chrysler C75, C76
1638 287 US Dodge D64 D65, Plymouth P30, P31. with overdrive
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Inactive by user's request
 
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | BHWINC - 2007-11-03 9:16 AM
I count 4 different NON OD 3 speed manual transmissions used in 57-59 cars
1823656
1853849
1738232
1853841 cast 93471
There looks to length differences as well as shifter linkage changes that may need to be done depending on from what to what applications. Differences in 6 or 8cyl applications look to depend on year and model. For instance one year Dodge 6 trans was used in Plymouth with V8's
Right on, Brad....there's a six banger (wide) ratio, small block V-8 ratio, small block V-8 ratio with heavy duty bearings, etc. and the ultra rare, heavy duty big block V-8 (close) ratio ('58-'59.)
Also, two tail shaft lengths. The '57 and perhaps '58 Plymouths and Dodges used a long tail tranny in wagons, short tail tranny in other cars, all the '59s used the long tail tranny.
There are said to have been running changes made in the shift linkage, most likely between '58 and '59. Also, some say the V-8 shift linkage was a little different, though I see no difference between my two '59 six-stick wagons and my '59 318-stick wagon.
I have no idea of what was used in De Soto and Chrysler stick cars during those years. 
K.
Edited by Kenny J. 2007-11-04 12:40 AM
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Inactive by user's request
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | I forgot to add the following:
According to my 1959 Passenger Car Parts catalog, any six cylinder car ordered with the police or taxi package received the heavy duty small block V-8 tranny, as they didn't produce trannys with both the wide ratio and the heavy duty internals.
K.
Edited by Kenny J. 2007-11-04 12:38 AM
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Expert
Posts: 2473
Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia | Originally posted by Kenny J.
According to my 1959 Passenger Car Parts catalog, any six cylinder car ordered with the police or taxi package received the heavy duty small block V-8 tranny, as they didn't produce trannys with both the wide ratio and the heavy duty internals.
A practice that seems to have continued, according to the information on three-speeds on the Autohobbydigest site...
The A745 was fitted with the 'Police & Taxi' option, although probably with the wide ratios for the sixes as they had these (probably for trucks) in production anyway.
There are anomolies on that site, however, I'm sure. They state that the hump in the top of the A745 box, right over the second gear slider, is to make room for the bigger gears.
But first gear would be bigger than second anyway... right? And I am now convinced that there were A745s without this hump, and that they were the close ratio version, as used in the V8 cars.
Got to one day find out why that hump is there...
Edited by Ray Bell 2007-11-07 4:07 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Hey, Ray, et al, is there any HD 3-speed that would specifically get put into a drag/300/D500/Fury? I would presume that the racing-trannie would require a narrow-range gearset , with hardened cogs, too.
Edited by d500neil 2007-11-07 5:39 PM
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Expert
Posts: 2473
Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia | The closest 3-speed Mopar gearset I know about is the A903 that was used in some V8s in the early sixties... 2.12:1 first, 1.43:1 second.... the A745 is stronger (much stronger, probably) but has closest ratios of 2.55:1 first, 1.49:1 second.
Later, in the boxes with side loading like the A833s, the A230 had 3.08:1 first and 1.70:1 second... not nearly as good. I don't know what the B-W 87 (I think that's the right nomenclature) was exactly, but as it was a big block performance box, it would be pretty good. And strong.
Were it for me, I'd be getting an A230 and getting a new input gears cut to raise the indirect gears. Start out with the truck gearset, 3.02:1 first and 1.76:1 second, get second gear to about 1:4:1 and first would become 2.4:1. Pretty good, very strong, modern and easy to find and synchro on first gear. Use a B/E body length to get extra compliance with the longer output shaft... which of course would be what you'd use in a car of that size. |
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Member
Posts: 14
| Hi:
I have a 58 Fury that came with a 318 and automatic, I have a 58 318 3 speed manual setup that I want to swap in. I want the finished job to look factory. I haven't seen the instrument panel of a manual trans car. Is there a delete plate available to cover the push button area? I have a delete plate for a 59 in case anyone is interested.
Thanks, Steve |
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Expert
Posts: 2932
Location: Lemoore CA | Yes, there is a delete plate for the pushbutton pod, it is made out of the same decorative metal that the button surround is, only has no holes. Other than that, a correct steering column and pedals, and it should look factory. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 6203
Location: Big pimpin' | I've got a buddy who bought a '58 Plymouth Plaza BRAND new, and he's got the 350 GC engine, with heavy duty 3-speed manual....(ordered that way)...
He's torn second gear out of it about four times....These transmissions were for all intense purposes....Junk for high H.P., or "Racing"...Even the baddest of the bad back then, was the weakest of weak today.... |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
Location: Colorado Springs, CO | The A745 was not used until '61 if memory serves correct, definitely no earlier than '60 from everything I've read (been wrong before though). '59-'60 Dodge W200 and W300 trucks with the heavy duty three speed had a Borg Warner T85 which is a real heavy duty/high performance transmission. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 322
| I've got a 60 Plymouth with a 383 and a T-85 3 speed on the column. Someone placed the shifter on the floor.Need linkage and levers to put her back to stock. Anyone out there have 60 plymouth or Dodge big block stick parts car? |
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Member
Posts: 14
| Thank you for the information. Would anyone have a pic of the dash panel of a manual transmisson car?
Thanks
Steve |
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Wise Old Village Idiot
Posts: 3591
Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | The dash panel on a '57, 8 Plymouth MANUAL trans car, did NOT have any push button pod, delete plate, or anything resembling buttons. There is NO hole, or indentation in the dash either.
The manual trand dash is smooth all the way across.
The Auto trans, Power flite Tourque flite, dash is stamped with a hole for the push buton pod to bolt to. The face plate had either, 4 button hole or 5 button hole.
So,m you could say that there were TWO dashes for the Plys |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Yeah, Rick, there was a PLY convertible on E-Bay, recently, which was advertised (IIRC) as being a factory stick,
but you, yourself 'busted' it, for having had the push button housing, right? Instead of having the 'smoothie' dash?
BTW, I have a '58 Motor Life(?) at home, and they tested the 58 Fury, and really liked (sort of) its newly-beefed
manual trannie, with its tighter gearing.
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Member
Posts: 14
| Thank you for the information. That Motor Life reference rings a bell, I might have that issue somewhere. I'm not flipping my Fury on eBay, I've had it nearly 20 years, I am just tired of automatics and would like to shift, that's why I bought the manual tranny.
Steve |
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Expert
Posts: 2932
Location: Lemoore CA | I could almost swear that I have seen pictures of manual transmission cars, with the pod, and a block off plate, they stuck in my mind because I thought it was weird that they had the pod. oh well, sorry for the misinformation. |
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Location: Parts Unknown |
I have block off plates for 57, 58, and 60 DeSoto, as well as 61 Chrysler. While I have seen plenty of FL Plymouths with manual trans, I don't ever remember a clean (sans pod) dash ! How did I miss this ???? How many other FL cars had a pod free dash with manual shift ? |
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Expert
Posts: 2473
Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia | Maybe that's because the Plymouth was more likely to have a manual transmission... hence sufficient volume to make it worthwhile? |
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Expert
Posts: 3155
Location: NY & VT | What Ray said makes sense - by far most FL cars with manuals were undoubtedly Plyms, most with flattie 6s. |
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Wise Old Village Idiot
Posts: 3591
Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | Actually, P'flite and T'flites were OPTIONS clear across the MoPar board! Well,,,,, maybe 'sept for the Imperial. (I don't know much about them)
Remember, the advertisments, back then, showing a young, good lookin', GLOVED HANDED, woman's finger, on the trans push buttons?
Showing the EASE of shifting a FwdLk vehicle? (Like the "Caveman" GEICO's ads) So easy a woman could drive a FwdLk vehicle, etc.
Rember now. F0rd, Ch3vy, and Plymouth were the 'low priced' three, the 'bread and butter' 'grocery getter' 'mom and pop' vehicles.
YES, those WERE pumped out in volume #'s
Now this discussion is ONLY '57, 8, right? For '59 and on, the button pod was incorperated INTO the dash design, with a delete plate. MOST of those delete plates were the regular button plate taken out of the press (whatever) before the button holes were stamped.
Doc, I can't for the life of me, tell what the dash looked like in the FACTORY manual trans, Dodge DeS, Chry! Was there a pod, with a delete plate???
Those that could afford to 'step up' to a higher priced modle, didn't want to 'row-yer-own'
Do you guys think the % of fatory equipped auto trans, Dod, DeS, Chry were in the 90% range? High 90%? This is still '57,8!
Plymouth %'s were as follows. 1957 Plymouths, OVER 75% of ALL the '57 Plys across the Ply board had the optional P'flite or T'flites.
1958 Plymouths, around, mid 80% had autos.
('59 Ply's was, low 90%. 1960 had the same %. '61 the % dropped slightly, '62 to '71 that % dropped to almost 50%! Muscle years)
'57, 8 Plymouths, with the MANUAL trans, could NOT be FACTORY equipped with POWER steer or brakes!
Another reason the % of manual trans were dimishing.
Plus as 'Cooter' mentioned. His buddy's FACTORY 350 GC with a 'row-yer-own' with trans problems. the ONLY manual trans availible behind the 350 GC waas that beefed HD 318 cop/taxi unit. STILL, NOT good enough to take the 350's tourque.
MID YEAR, manual trans was NOT offered behind the OPTIONAL 350 GC!
It was not untill the 361/383 cross ram, 1960 Ply, that Ma MoPar had a manual trans beefey enough to take the B motor's tourque. What was it, a short 2 years after thaT the 4-speed came out?
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Wise Old Village Idiot
Posts: 3591
Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | Yes, Neil, that Ply Convt on ebay, saying it had a manual trans, was EASY to tell something was wrong.
Another give-a-way, is the hole (STAMPED) in the dash for the stering column. HUGE hole for the larger diameter, auto, column, a smaller hole for the smaller diameter stick column.
I had a spare, auto/stick '57,8 Ply dashs, but they were sold with EVERYTHING else as a package, when I sold the '58 Ply convt. Or, I would take a picture and show you guys the differnces. The shifter pod was missing on the one dash. You could 'see' the stamed (NOT CUT) hole.
(Maybe Big M can share some pictures????) |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
Location: Colorado Springs, CO | Yep, MoPar needed to use the BW T-85D in '60 because it didn't have an in house 3 speed manual for B blocks. They put it behind B motors in Dodges and Plymouths. There were no manual equipped Chryslers or Desotos in '60 that I know of except the 300F Special and that used the special 4 speed. The A745 was released in '61 and used until the late '60's. The T-85J was an option in '63 behind max wedge engines. Other manual equipped B motors could be backed by a T-10 4 speed in '63 only. The Chrysler built A833 was released in '64 and used in all big block applications in various forms until the '70's. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Rick, you are saying that, on your automatic-transmission dashboard, the pushbutton-"pod" had been physically
removed from it, and that you could clearly see, where-and-when the entire dash panel had been stamped-out,
initially, that the pod-opening had alsobeen stamped-out of the rough pressing, along with all the other openings
like for radio and W/S wiper and headlight controls, etc?
BTW, 57+ Dodges all had that pushbutton-pod be installed, but had a cute 'star-design' block-off cover plate, on the manual
shift models.
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Wise Old Village Idiot
Posts: 3591
Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | Neil. YEP!
I don't remember where or when (it was in the '80's) I got it, I know the dash was unbolted, and laying in the trunk, ( I don't remember what car this dash was in) the shifter pod was unbolted and MIA, along with the raido. However the complete speedo (150!) clock and guages were all there.
'57, 8 Ply's, the shifter pod bolts/screws onto the dash, OVER the stamped hole for the cables. Whish I could get a picture to show you guys.
Now, since the '59's had the shifter pod incorporated into the dash design, did the '56 Ply, OTHER '56 Mopes have two different dashes? Smooth for manual trannys. A stamped (?) hole, with the shifter pod bolted on.
Go look at the FwdLk Dodge/Fargo pick-em-up dashes! The shifter pod on the auto equipped, looks like a,,,,,,,,, donkey penis! REALLY out of place. Not moulded in like the FwdLk car line. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7806
Location: Williams California | Here is a picture of a manual trans equipped dash in a '57 Plaza, note there is no cut out for the shifter assembly, as Rick noted. Also, a pic of an automatic trans dash with the shifter pod removed from the dash shell. Hope these help. ---John
 (shifter pod 001.jpg)
 (shifter pod 002.jpg)
Attachments
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 shifter pod 001.jpg (68KB - 182 downloads)
shifter pod 002.jpg (49KB - 193 downloads)
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Member
Posts: 14
| Wow, John, those are great pics. Would you be interested in selling that Plaza Dash? I am in Oregon.
Thank You
Steve |
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Expert
Posts: 2473
Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia | Once you've bought the dash, I'm putting in a tender for the spiders... |
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Wise Old Village Idiot
Posts: 3591
Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | Hey "Buzzard Breath" (Neil)
I emailed Flowey (Big M) for help, to see if he could post some pictures, to settle this confusion.
They say, a picture is worth a 1000 words,,,,,. Well, there is a couple thousand words.
Looks like they CAN theach us, card carrying Old Farts, "new tricks" We BOTH learned something.
You, the two dashes for Plys, and me, for the cruise control!
(thanks John)
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Wise Old Village Idiot
Posts: 3591
Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | Now. If anyone out there can take a picture of a '57,8,9 Dodge pick up push botton dash pod, you can see how out of place it looks, compaired to the FwdLk cars. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | WOW, the PLY dash was clearly designed to have both a pushbutton housing, and not to have a pushbutton housing.
The Dodge dashes have a longish, elaborate removeable shelf that holds the pushbutton mechanisms, and which
forms a part of the dashboard, when bolted to the upper section of the dash. That removable lower shelf made for easy
access and adjustment to/for the pushbutons!
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Location: Parts Unknown | DK's300 - 2008-05-28 9:19 AM
MoPar needed to use the BW T-85D in '60 because it didn't have an in house 3 speed manual for B blocks. They put it behind B motors in Dodges and Plymouths. There were no manual equipped Chryslers or Desotos in '60 that I know of except the 300F Special and that used the special 4 speed. .
****************************************
Au contraire, Amigo !
The Pont-a-Mousson 4-speed failed miserably in the 300F and a general recall order was issued. Mopar engineers were tasked with a replacement and the T-85 with a new floor shifter was the answer. While I cannot speak for Chrysler, the CHS archive staff informed me that my 60 Fireflite was one of 3 DeSotos built with this arrangement, along with explaining the recall, etc. Rare, yes, but it was done ! |
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Expert
Posts: 2473
Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia | Any idea whether or not some of the Pont-a-Moussons survived?
Sounds like this was another expensive exercise for Chrysler... |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
Location: Colorado Springs, CO | Sounds like an awesome DeSoto! That's why I didn't use "never", "all" or "always" in my post and included the "that I know of" caveat. It seems that in the days that you could order your options, there were often exceptions to the general rule. Now I know of one and am smarter for it. I assume your car uses the standard pedal setup for full size '60 models. Can you post pictures of your shifter, boot and floor "hump"? BTW - there is a 1960 2 dr Plymouth Police Pursuit on ebay right now - 361 GC and a column shift (I assume T85). Supposedly it's 1 of 300 built. If only I had more storage...
P.S. Who would put a French tranny in anything American? I've seen Pont trannies pop up for sale once or twice in the last 6 years in conjunction with Facel Vega parts - super rare.
Edited by DK's300 2008-06-15 11:04 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Wayne Graefen ("Still out there", on this site) owns or co-owns a 300F hardtop, and/or an F convertible still exists, which have that
Pont a Mousson trannie; I forget which; W.????? |
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Expert
Posts: 3155
Location: NY & VT | I believe most of the Pont -a-Mousson trannies have survived in Facel Vega HK500 cars, the essentially hand built French car with Chrysler V-8 engines that it was originally designed for IIRC ... 20 yrs ago you could still pick them up for 4-5000, as you could a 300F. |
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Member
Posts: 42
| Hope this pic works. Its the dash pod on my 57 with 3 speed manual tranny |
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Member
Posts: 14
| Thank You Big M! The Three Speed Manual Tranny Dash arrived today and it is Beautiful! Thank You for taking the Time to pull it, box it, and ship it to me. I haven't done a manual tranny car since I was in high school and now I am really fired up about this.
Steve |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7806
Location: Williams California | You are more than welcome, Steve, glad you're happy with it! ---John |
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3 speed manual transmission questions
