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61 Chrysler 3 speed stick
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Ozzie 61
Posted 2008-07-29 9:37 PM (#139556)
Subject: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



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Anyone tell if this one is legit?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1961-61-Chrysler-2drht-PARTS-CAR_W0Q...
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imopar380
Posted 2008-07-30 12:06 AM (#139575 - in reply to #139556)
Subject: RE: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



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Yes, the 3 speed manual transmission was standard offering on the Newport for 1961, though not many were built that way. Ditto for 1962. Check out the transmission push button delete plate on the car.  Below is a 61 Newport stick shift that has been restored a couple of years ago.


Edited by imopar380 2008-07-30 12:09 AM




(newport stickshift13_resize.JPG)



(newport stickshift15.JPG)



(newport stickshift17_resize.JPG)



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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2008-07-30 1:51 AM (#139586 - in reply to #139575)
Subject: RE: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



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This is correct. Originally offered as Chrysler's recall answer to the failed Pont-a-Mousson 4-speed in 1960. My 60 Fireflite had this set up behind a 383 crossram. It was dealer ordered for the dealer's son. Not sure if any special strings were pulled, but the car also had 12" brakes - not normally offered on DeSotos.

I would like to know the specifics behind the shift knobs. Neil's is the little white round ball, while the restored car Ian shows has the grey squashed one. I have both, and both came from 60 DeSotos, however I cannot verify if either were ever replaced. I always thought the grey one was a replacement. Hmmm .....

This car really should be saved.

How many floor shift manual trans finned cars were ever made ? Extremely rare, even back in the day.

The original trans is a real bear to drive in all but open road applications. No synchro in 1st or reverse, meaning almost a dead stop to downshift. No fun in traffic at all ! I always felt first gear was kinda wimpy, but second shot you out of the hole like a slingshot ! I beat a whooped up 70 SS 396 Nova 4-speed car with that beast one time. The driver was flabbergasted that my big, old, ugly "batmobile" could move so fast. The look on his face was priceless.

I will be using one of my shifters in the 58.
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StillOutThere
Posted 2008-07-30 11:44 AM (#139606 - in reply to #139586)
Subject: RE: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



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Location: Under the X in Texas

What recall?  I don't know of any recall on the 9  1960 Chrysler 300F Special Gran Turismo cars built with Pont-a-Mousson 4speeds.  What failure?  Those few cars were a very special project and none of them had transmission problems while doing what they were built to do which was set records on Daytona's sand.  Four of the 9 cars still exist and one clone convertible has been built from another Facel Vega P-a-M.  I only know of one of the 9 having been converted to torqueflite by its owner who was too impatient to wait for transmission parts.  Sure, in owner's hands on the street such things as a chipped tooth on the cluster show up as in my car about 35 years and 120,000 miles later.  I don't call that a failure behind a 400HP engine.

The three speed manual was then used in the 1961 300G Specials and was GROSSLY inadequate and that truly was a failure with only a couple assembled.  However, a number of standard 300Gs with 375 HP engines and lower torque were built with that side shfter 3speed sticking out the side of the console.  Same thing for 300Hs and the new series of 300 sport models with the 383.

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d500neil
Posted 2008-07-30 3:44 PM (#139639 - in reply to #139556)
Subject: Re: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



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Brent dint mean "recall" ["Playoffs?"....P. Mora]; he meant 'replacement'.
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big m
Posted 2008-07-30 7:42 PM (#139709 - in reply to #139556)
Subject: Re: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



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I've got two '62 3-speed manual cars in the yard, a four door Newport, and a 300. The floorboard has a special hump where the shifter boot is located, so it's fairly easy to identify a factory offered manual trans car.---John
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chrysler300c
Posted 2008-07-31 12:06 AM (#139735 - in reply to #139556)
Subject: RE: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



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Knowing Neil Freman for the past 8 years, I would believe it is an original as he has stated. I have found him to be very fair and honest.

george
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2008-07-31 2:54 AM (#139744 - in reply to #139735)
Subject: RE: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



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I had it told to me by old heads that those P-a-M 4-speeds liked to break second gear and that Chrysler offered a "recall" with this new shifter and the old dog 3-speed to rectify the matter.

I am only relating terms told to me as it related to my 3-speed 60 DeSoto. I have no recall order paperwork or otherwise. Maybe an urban legend ?

So what is the story with the little white shifter ball vs. the grey squatty one ?????
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StillOutThere
Posted 2008-07-31 12:07 PM (#139763 - in reply to #139744)
Subject: RE: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



2000100010010025
Location: Under the X in Texas

Of course not all the Pont-a-Mousson equipped 300Fs lasted through their first several years with some of them crashed at high speed but this is the very first I've ever heard of a recall and replacement 3speed stick being installed.  Someone may have mis-spoken or not been clear that the 3speed torqueflite got into a car or two over the years.  I do know that at 3-4 years old the mule test car, then in private hands, was converted from P-a-M 4speed to a torqueflite 3speed and eventually died in the Arizona desert after flying off the road in excess of 130 mph. 

Also, let me reveal that the nine 300F 400HP Special GTs were first built with the P-a-M but when that small quantity of transmissions that had been ordered ran out, another 4-5 Specials were constructed with 400HP engines and torqueflites.  This from my meeting last September with engineer Burt Bouwkamp, who headed the Gran Turismo project. 

Facel Vega technicians (the only other car to ever employ the Series II P-a-M as used in the 300F) have told me to a man that this transmission was virtually bulletproof with one exception; that being the cluster gear.  During production of the Series II, there was a design change from a two-piece interlocking cluster gear to a one-piece gear and that is said to have solved the problem. 

Can't help you with the knob color question on the 3speed sticks. 



Edited by StillOutThere 2008-07-31 12:10 PM
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d500neil
Posted 2008-07-31 5:12 PM (#139794 - in reply to #139556)
Subject: Re: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

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So, Wayne, there were 9 production Specials built (does that include the convertible?) and then another 4-5 400HP'ers
were built with the T/F, and THEN, there was the test-Mule (Rust-In-Peace?)






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horace
Posted 2008-08-01 2:03 AM (#139844 - in reply to #139556)
Subject: Re: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



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There were 2 3pd Newports in our town of 5000, both white
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StillOutThere
Posted 2008-08-01 3:23 PM (#139871 - in reply to #139794)
Subject: Re: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



2000100010010025
Location: Under the X in Texas

How do I clarify this to answer Neil's question.....

All construction of these Specials was as part of the Gran Turismo project.  This was accomplished by taking completed production line standard 375HP torqueflite cars over to a building referred to as "Header House" where unique vehicles were hand built.   There the engine was rebuilt by the factory's engineers with the 284o cam, larger valve heads, huge cast iron headers, and water heated short ram intakes and 3084S carburetors with manual chokes and racing clearances.

First, the test mule car was built.  Hardtop with 400HP engine and Pont-a-Mousson 4speed transmission.  Kind of cobbled and hacked together to make certain it could be done and would all fit and work.  Biggest problem was with adapting clutch linkage from some model of Dodge truck and secondly a new top shifter cover had to be cast to bring the P-a-M shifter back 4 inches from the Facel Vega location for driver ease of use in the larger interior of the 300F.

Then seven more hardtops and lastly a convertible.  These 8 had the 400HP engine and all P-a-M equipped.   This used up the supply of P-a-M transmissions.  One assumes a couple of spares were kept back for problems at the Daytona appearance.  Rumor has always been that 12 P-a-M tranmissions were received by Chrysler from the French manufacturer.

Then 4-5 more hardtops which had the 400HP engine but were torqueflite equipped.

Next question.





(PaM R.JPG)



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fast59desoto
Posted 2008-08-01 4:13 PM (#139874 - in reply to #139871)
Subject: Re: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



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does anyone have any info on the competition prepped 59 desotos i heard they were floor mounted 4spds cant remeber how many i was told were made also ive got a 60 dodge with column mounted shifter how hard are they to change to floor
jeff

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d500neil
Posted 2008-08-01 4:33 PM (#139876 - in reply to #139871)
Subject: Re: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

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[Next question] : is it not true that at least one 'extra' P-a-M was released to the piblic (somehow) and that that trannie
has been installed into another 300F?

[Follow up:] In your humble opinion, is this 'extra' car metaphorically different from another 300F which might have had
its OEM engine be replaced with another 300F engine, with a "G' engine, or with a NY'er engine?

Is a 300 still a 300 if a Windsor body is used to restore, or to re-create the 300, but using all-correct 300 tags-and-equipment?







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DK's300
Posted 2008-08-01 6:09 PM (#139885 - in reply to #139876)
Subject: Re: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick


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The trans in this car is the A745 and it was not available until 1961. I think we discussed this a little in another post Dr D, but if your '60 DeSoto is B block equipped it is almost certainly a Borg Warner T-85, like the big block, manual equipped Plymouths and Dodges of that year. 2 totally different animals. T-85s can take a lot of abuse and have ring gear synchros. A745s were Chrysler produced and had a pin type synchros. While the A745 could take the torque of the B block, it was apparently dicey with the 413, even with the HD clutch (that's why most of the manual cars are 361s and 383s). They would bend the synchro pins and become unshiftable under racing conditions and that's why they went back to the T-85 for manual, Max Wedge cars.

Chrysler didn't have an in house 4 speed manual until the A833 came out in '64. They offered the BW T-10 on B block, manual trans equipped cars in '63 only (and not on Max Wedges).

The few factory 3 speed '60, full size MoPars I have seen, 3 Plymouths and a Dodge, were all column shifted. I'm not saying there weren't any floor shifts available, and I have no idea what any production numbers would be. Would they have specified floor or column in addition to manual trans on any build sheet or data cards? They may have had to outsource the floor shifter for the '60 T-85s (which is what they did for the '62-'63 Max Wedge cars) and could explain the round knob on Dr D's car.

Also, as far as I know, all manual trans equipped '61-'64 full size Chryslers were A-745s and floor shift only (no column shift available). The shift knob on the parts Newport is not original. The shifter on the restored Newport is the original type and is correct for '61-'64. I can't speak to the '60 models, as mentioned above.

I have nothing to add on the P-M trans discussion - out of my area. Hope this info is useful and no I did not sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Edited by DK's300 2008-08-01 6:14 PM
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mrtester
Posted 2008-08-01 7:21 PM (#139936 - in reply to #139885)
Subject: Re: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



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That '61 Chrysler three-speed stickshift gear lever and boot are straight out of the 1960-61 Valiant/Lancer with manual transmission. And as previously mentioned, the 1960-61 full-size Plymouths and Dodges with sticks were column-shifted. My observations of those setups were that the Plymouth/Dodge steering columns looked more like 1957-59 manual shift columns, with separate housing tubes for the steering and gearshift mechanisms, used in 1960-61 stick cars. Even the knob on the column gearshift lever looked the same, leading me to believe that Ye Olde Chrysler Corporation wanted to reduce their excess stock of old manual-shift steering colums. They started going to concentric-monuted manual gearshift lever columns starting in 1962, beginning with that year's Valiant/Lancer and Savoy/Belvy/Dart cars, while the Chrysler used the Valiant-derived floor shift through at least 1964.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Read my lips...No More DaimlerChrysler!
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2008-08-02 1:43 AM (#139970 - in reply to #139556)
Subject: RE: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



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Location: Parts Unknown
Great info, guys. Thanks ! I love stick talk !
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StillOutThere
Posted 2008-08-02 11:33 AM (#140008 - in reply to #139876)
Subject: Re: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



2000100010010025
Location: Under the X in Texas

First, Guys I'm a little bit sorry that we are running concurrent discussions of the 3speed manual cars and the Pont-a-Moussson 4speed equipped 300Fs.  Should have been seperate threads but oh well, here we are.  Didn't mean to hijack if anyone feels that happened.

Neil, there are innumerable P-a-M trans out there because of their installation in Facel Vega cars.  However, again, it is only the second series (Series II) trans that was behind the Hemi Facels and that would hold up to the 300F installation.  There was an earlier (Series I) P-a-M that was lighter duty, and a third (Series III) that was used in the smaller 4 cylinder Facelia cars.

I'm going to presume that you are referencing the Don Petty black 300F convertible with short rams, headers, and a Pont-a-Mousson that appeared out of nowhere in history (ahem) about a year ago.  Don exclaims that this is a factory original car.  Let me state even more emphatically THAT CAR IS BOGUS.  It is a clone from parts he accumulated over the decades.  He had two P-a-M Facel 4speeds and sold me one twenty years ago when my cluster chipped.  As a salvage yard operator I'm sure he had the opportunity to purchase other transmissions.  I purchased a second spare myself from another Facel.   The 300 club knew for decades that he had a black standard 375HP torqueflite unrestored 300F convertible with the current VIN.  When he claims it is authentic he has no documentatiion and is flat lying through his teeth.  He offers the car for sale for $1,000,000.   Caveat Emptor (buyer beware) !!!

I only have one question about how he constructed the car and that is how he moved the shift lever back the required 4 inches from the Facel location.   Now, that asked, the mule car was probably disassembled in the Phoenix area by 1970.  A set of headers Don showed me twenty years ago likely were from that car.  It is possible Don also traced the original trans and got the top cover for his build.  Recall in my earlier post, that mule car was changed to a torqueflite in its early years.   One would have to get under Don's car to verify it HAS a P-a-M and /or to verify it has a 300F top cover.

Did a single 300F adapted P-a-M leave the factory?  Sure!  If they built 9 cars and nobody required or purchased a spare trans, then there were three left to sell and I'm certain they did so.  Where'd they go?  NO RECORD.

I have no idea what you mean by "metaphysically different".  Plain and simple, Don's BOGUS 300F Special convertible is a clone.  ANY car that doesn't have factory or historical documentation must be assumed to be a clone.   Now, remember I wrote earlier that the F Spls came off the assembly line as standards, not Specials.  Their IBM build record shows them as standards.  BUT, their shipping dates are weeks later than what is normal (1-3 days) after assembly because they spent those weeks at Header House.   Each of the existing Specials has a historical track record documenting its ownership and location.  There is a brief notebook of engineer's pages talking about the Gran Turismo project.  In it is ONE serial number written down: the car I own making mine the best documented of the four existing in that sense.

Okay, yeah, clones are physically, spiritually, metaphysically, historically, and in Don's car's case even OBVIOUSLY different.  You would think a guy trying to steal a million dollars from an uninformed buyer would have done a better job of at least duplicating visible differences from his own 300F Special GT hardtop but he MISSED several!

NO, a 300 is not a 300 if a Windsor (or NYer, or Saratoga, or any DeSoto) body is used to create the 300.   IT IS A CLONE, a fake, a knock-off, an imitation and worth a fraction of the real deal.   It is why in the Classic Car Club of America when someone takes a Deusenberg or Packard or Auburn SEDAN body and chassis and has a guy like Marcel DeLay PERFECTLY duplicate a boattail speedster replacement body and all the correct detail equipment is in place, the car is put in a NON ORIGINAL class and is judged (and valued) accordingly. 

Pic attached of the BOGUS Petty clone.  Even from 15 feet away Don didn't have the good sense to put original wide whitewalls on the car AND all the Specials came with steel disc road wheels, not showy 15" chrome wires.  Would YOU want to drive this car at 165 mph risking a inner tube or wheel failure?



Edited by StillOutThere 2008-08-02 11:41 AM




(Bogus.jpg)



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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2008-08-02 3:42 PM (#140027 - in reply to #140008)
Subject: Re: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



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Location: Parts Unknown
Where is Don based out of ? I remember selling him parts years ago, but the details have faded into the mists.
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StillOutThere
Posted 2008-08-02 4:39 PM (#140033 - in reply to #140027)
Subject: Re: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



2000100010010025
Location: Under the X in Texas
Don Petty lives in north Phoenix and has a small salvage yard towards downtown in two sections - late model, and mostly Chrysler collectibles.  Don is said to be a cousin of "King" Richard Petty of NASCAR fame, hence his interest in Chrysler products.  I have no idea if that is true or not.   He has long been a member in the Chrysler 300 Club Inc. ("western" club) and on occasion has been a member of the Chrysler 300 Club International ("eastern" club).
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mrtester
Posted 2008-08-02 11:22 PM (#140080 - in reply to #139936)
Subject: Re: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



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mrtester - 2008-08-01 7:21 PM

Even the knob on the column gearshift lever looked the same, leading me to believe that Ye Olde Chrysler Corporation wanted to reduce their excess stock of old manual-shift steering colums. They started going to concentric-monuted manual gearshift lever columns starting in 1962, beginning with that year's Valiant/Lancer and Savoy/Belvy/Dart cars, while the Chrysler used the Valiant-derived floor shift through at least 1964.



The 1962-64 Dodge 880/Custom 880 was a quickly-conceived variant of the Chrysler, and it looks like that car also used the Valiant floor shift. Has anyone on this forum ever seen a stick-equipped 880? I never have, and I have never found any documentation from my late uncle's old Chrysler dealership that would indicate that such cars exist. All the 880s I saw while growing up had automatics, as the 1961 Polara had. My family had a '61 Dart Seneca with the 318-poly and Powerflite, and the manual tranny for that car was column-shifted with a leftover '59 column. The 880 has all but dissapeared now, do any stick versions of this car even exist?
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2008-08-03 1:51 AM (#140093 - in reply to #140080)
Subject: Re: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



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mrtester - 2008-08-03 8:22 PM
The 1962-64 Dodge 880/Custom 880 was a quickly-conceived variant of the Chrysler, and it looks like that car also used the Valiant floor shift. Has anyone on this forum ever seen a stick-equipped 880? I never have, and I have never found any documentation from my late uncle's old Chrysler dealership that would indicate that such cars exist. All the 880s I saw while growing up had automatics, as the 1961 Polara had. My family had a '61 Dart Seneca with the 318-poly and Powerflite, and the manual tranny for that car was column-shifted with a leftover '59 column. The 880 has all but dissapeared now, do any stick versions of this car even exist?


*****************************************

One of these cars was offered for sale in northern Idaho not so terribly long ago. My brother told me about it. In fact, it was a pair of stick cars, one a Chrysler, the other an 880. Not sure of years, as neither had fins so my interest was limited.
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StillOutThere
Posted 2008-08-03 9:18 AM (#140110 - in reply to #140093)
Subject: Re: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



2000100010010025
Location: Under the X in Texas

I'll actually add something to the 3speed thread! 

Regards Chrysler 300s, the 3speed stick was available in '61 and '62 and '63.  Very few '61s got it.  '62 a few 300Hs got it and a pretty good numer of 300 Sport models.  In '63 as I recall only one 300J was a 3 speed stick and I have no idea but presume several '63 300 Sports got it.

Now, weren't there two versions of the 4speed that arrived in '64?   A light duty that came behind Slant 6 cars with quite a few Darts and Valiants so equipped, and then the heavy duty version for all the V8 cars?  Did the light duty also come behind the 273 and 318 equipped cars?

Somewhere I have a factory pic of the 300J console /stick area but darned if I can find it.



Edited by StillOutThere 2008-08-03 9:27 AM
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blondie61
Posted 2021-04-09 8:56 AM (#610828 - in reply to #139556)
Subject: RE: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick


Member

Posts: 6

My Dad has a '61 Newport Convertible standard shift. He has had it since 1968.



(61.jpg)



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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2021-04-09 10:10 AM (#610829 - in reply to #610828)
Subject: RE: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



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Location: Parts Unknown
A very striking car in black. ??
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58coupe
Posted 2021-04-09 11:01 AM (#610831 - in reply to #139556)
Subject: Re: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



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Some years ago I met a man who lives near Anchorage who had 2 61 Newports that were sticks. One was wrecked and the other needed restoring. I believe he said one had a 361 and the other a 383.
I have lost touch with him so don't know what happened to the cars.
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GaryS
Posted 2021-04-09 12:56 PM (#610835 - in reply to #139556)
Subject: Re: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



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My two cents.

I worked in sales at a C-P dealership in 1964 and can attest to one odd-ball factory-built stick shift '64 Chrysler, and it was a New Yorker.

An old farmer was looking at the new '64s on the floor and made a comment that he would love to own a New Yorker, but he had never owned an automatic transmission and never would. The regional factory rep had recently told us to never lose a sale because a specific option was not in the order book for a certain model. I told the farmer about that conversation and said I would check if a manual transmission could be installed in a New Yorker. To make long story short, I contacted the rep and a few days later, he said it could be done and what the price would be. The farmer ordered the Chrysler and while it was quite a wait, he received it and I assume he was satisfied with his one of a kind Chrysler, though I never saw him again by the time I left the company.

I also sold a highly modified 3/4 ton '64 Dodge truck from the factory, and apparently it was not unusual to modify new vehicles with modifications not listed in the standard order book.

Edited by GaryS 2021-04-09 1:05 PM
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ABloch
Posted 2021-04-10 9:32 PM (#610868 - in reply to #139556)
Subject: RE: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



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Just clarifying something someone stated earlier that is incorrect.
The shifter was different between the Valiant and the Chrysler.
He was correct about the boot.



(Dartshift copy.jpg)



(v200shift copy.jpg)



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Apollo 61
Posted 2021-04-11 11:05 AM (#610887 - in reply to #610868)
Subject: Re: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



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How did the shifter conversion work out for you?
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2021-04-11 5:12 PM (#610908 - in reply to #610887)
Subject: Re: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



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Location: Parts Unknown
In my last post above, I added a thumbs-up at the end that
"translated" here as question marks. I just noticed it now, and
can longer edit it.

Anyway, there were no question marks intended. The car looks
great in black !
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oldwood
Posted 2023-03-22 4:36 AM (#628434 - in reply to #139556)
Subject: Re: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick


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I have a friend who has a 4dr Newport with the factory 3 speed on the floor. Rusting away
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ABloch
Posted 2023-03-22 7:59 AM (#628435 - in reply to #610887)
Subject: Re: 61 Chrysler 3 speed stick



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Location: Pacific Northwest
It still hasn't come to fruition. I wasn't able to locate all the bits and pieces. The elusive factory piece of plywood as an example.

I did purchase a brand new Hurst DP 61 that I am still contemplating. From what I have been told I would be better off with the Hurst set up.

I'm reluctant to cut a hole in the NOS rubber mat I scored to retain the cars originality.

Then if I do decide to install the floor shift I would have to swap out the column with an A/T style.

Decisions. Decisions.
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