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| Neil, is this legitimate?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars-Trucks___1957-DODGE-CORONET-D50...
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
 
Location: bishop, ca | Thanks, Robert. I hadn't been aware of this car.
I wish this thread were posted on the Craigslist board; maybe it can be moved, by a Moderator?
Anyway; interesting car.
It appears to be an OEM single-4 325 Hemi D500.
The red-flags/give-ways are the rubber fuel lines which, if the car were OEM, would have the correct stainless steel line-connections.
Typically, when a second carb is added, you see fuel line and/or fuel filter alterations, and this engine has them.
The front carb appears to have an incorrect choke on it, IIRC(disclaimer), but, on a Super D500, the front air cleaner is oriented toward the rear of the engine, and there is a unique, and crude, coil bracket which is braized to the valve cover, so that the coil is attached in a vertical position, on the valve cover.
On a Super-D, you would expect to see a HD radiator, with the upper hose installed at the far passenger side of the rad, instead of centrally, at the cap.
For some reason, a former owner felt compelled to paint the hood latch black; that latch sould be cad-silver, like the hood hinges.
For a Barn-find(found), it looks like a former owner may have repainted the body; I have WebTv here at home, but, isn't that OVERSPRAY, on the driver's door trim panel, and, isn't that a shadow-image of the OEM paint, over by the outer edge of the door panel?
The car looks to have manual brakes and steering, so, the original owner may have had 'street performance' on his mind, and, this car might have been Special Ordered (but why, as 'only' a single-4???)
It appears to have the Custom Coronet interior motif, but none of the optional Accessory Groups. The car might have been built without a radio, given its 'stripper' status.
It's got its OEM rubber floor mats, but, the seller doesn't happen to provide a good image of the driver's seat, or, of the interior. What we do see shows that the front seat upholstery is not the OEM "Star Dot" material.
That Tach doesn't look to be vintage 1950's, right?
I'll write to the seller for more P/T plate/Broadcast sheet info, but, he's a broker, so don't expect to receive anything back from him, on this "Private" auction.
If you like manual steering & brakes, on a somewhat molested D500 stripper Coronet, I'd say that its smart-money value would be around 15-20K MAX, as a driving/presentable vehicle.
As a Super-D, in this same condition, I'd say $35K would not be unreasonable----poor man's D501.
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Inactive by Request
Posts: 1292
Location: Lovely place | Last year I also purchased a dual-intake, and since then I've been looking for restorable dual-carb setup with correct air filters. I don't want to fake my car to Super D-500, just want a dual-setup because its *cool*! Of couse I want it to be historically correct looking, so I need some more info for building such setup. Are those air filters really the correct types for Super-D500? Did Dodge use the same as Plymouth (which were golden)? You say the the HD radiator has the upper hose installed on the passenger side, so is the engine's water inlet still the same part (pointing straight forward)? What about the injection systems (they were installed on few engines, right?), did they ever fit them on 325 Hemi or was it only D501 special? Currently Hilborn is offering a setup for Early Hemi's, but is it even close to the original - at least its expensive. I would really like to see a photo of injected Dodge engine, what sort of air filters they had etc.
Thanks for the link etc.!
Edited by Sisu 2008-09-28 3:07 AM
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Expert
Posts: 1622
Location: Seville, OH | D501 Engine (354 Chrysler) with correct dual-four setup. Picture of the eBay D500 (325 Dodge) engine is shown for comparison. Can't find a picture of Super D500.
Edited by Swept57 2008-09-28 11:19 AM
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Expert
Posts: 1918
Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | Hmmm - except for the longer oil filler, different genie position and rubber fuel lines, they look identical.
Lemme see if I can dig up pics of a '57 Dodge Texan Super D-500 4 door sedan around here a while ago..... |
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Posts: 1918
Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | Here we go - 2nd post down after initial post are the pics:
http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=3159&s... |
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Location: Seville, OH | 1955Coronado - 2008-09-28 8:38 AM
Hmmm - except for the longer oil filler, different genie position and rubber fuel lines, they look identical.
I think similar is a better term. Remember the D501 has a Chrysler Hemi whereas the D500 has a Dodge. Also, the D500-1 Texan has the generator on the same side as the D501 which supports Neil's suspicion that this is not an original Super D.
Edited by Swept57 2008-09-28 12:50 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1918
Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | Who knows - I'm not sure either way. I know the D-501 had the Chrysler 354, but without any indication on the valve covers, how could I tell for sure from photos? Water intake? Manifold?
I know that the Texan 4 door originally had A/C, so that may be an explaination for the genie on the driver's side on that one..... |
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Expert
Posts: 1622
Location: Seville, OH | Good point on the A/C. Maybe Neil or Sisu knows the answer to that one. The easiest way to tell the D500 and D501 engines apart is on the Dodge Hemi, the adjustable lifter bumps on the valve covers aren't fully concealed by the spark plug wire covers. There are cutouts in the wire covers for clearance which can be seen in the lower picture. |
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Account Suspended (Steve Hobby / Leaburn Patey Alias)
Posts: 18
| Ahem...Car is decribed falsely as a D500 car.
Car is an original Poly car and it was public knowledge 18 years ago that this car was going to get the D500 goodies.
Current seller is just looking to grab big money --a flipper.
Read on:
http://moparfins/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1643&PN=3
Edited by canuckfins 2008-09-28 7:56 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 990
| Thank you for all the information, car is at $15 something now.
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Posts: 1622
Location: Seville, OH | The moparfins link isn't working for me. But thanks for outing this car if in fact it is not real. Probably the reason for the private auction. |
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Account Suspended (Steve Hobby / Leaburn Patey Alias)
Posts: 18
| Google moparfins and go to Forums.
General discussion to the "Look what showed up on E bay" thread.
I cannot get the link to work.
Edited by canuckfins 2008-09-28 8:18 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Well, I just lost my whole message, due to hitting 'spellcheck' instead of 'submit'
Sooo, I thanked Dwight for the info, and said that it was a bummer that the car wasn't even a real D500--let alone a Supr-D (whicjh I recognized that it wasn't).
What else did I say?---I mentioned that the gennies were installed on either side of the engine, in '57, but, the D500's and the D501 had them installed on the driver's side (forgot to mention this discrepancy in my post).
Also mentioned that I'd been PM'ed and the front carb is vintage 1956.
Then, I mentioned that the D501 engine (and valve covers) look like Godzilla, next to the 270-325 engines/valve covers, and, the Supr-D's have the coil mounted vertically, in the middle of the driver's valve cover, whereas the 501 had it bracketed horizontally at the back end of that valve cover (like the 300B).
Then, I mentioned that I'd be major-pissed/defrauded if I won this car and (will) find out that the car is not even a real D500, let alone a Super-D.
Then: I mentioned that the broker/seller makes some strong personal affirmations regarding the car's provenance, instead of deferring to the affirmations made to him by the car's owner.
Those were the 'highlights' of that message....
Edited by d500neil 2008-09-28 9:43 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | David; do you have any more photos of that "Super D500"?
(Naturally-), we can not see the installation of the coil bracket, on the driver's valve cover; that's a
dispositive piece of evidence.
That car appears to be a non-heater-option car, too; very rare occurrence.
On the Eastern U.S., somewhere around NJ, there is a real all white Coronet Super D500 2-dr HT, which, a seller attempted to 'convert' to being a Custom Royal(and who sold the car as such, after painting it red/white (IIRC---could have been blue/white, but pretty sure that it was red/white). That car should still wear its Coronet Paint/Trim plate.
Cedric, Dodge only had a (Bendix) fuel injection system installed on a few 1958 cars (reportedly 16, but Darrell Davis may be researching the Fuelie production with the Historical Society, soon).
A number of people, installing a second carb on a D500 engine will mount the coil on the firewall, at/on the brake booster bracket, if the car happens not to have power brakes.
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Expert
Posts: 2244
Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Nice work, ya may have saved somebody from getting "Ripped off"
Gary |
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Account Suspended (Steve Hobby / Leaburn Patey Alias)
Posts: 18
| Thanks.
The seller pulled the E bay listing.
The car was featured in High Performance Mopar in their July 1990 issue.
The owner then clearly stated that he had all the D500 goodies to do a conversion which was in the works at that time.
Car had 41,000 miles on the original 325 2bbl back then.
Then owner Larry De Lisio lived in Clyde NY at that time.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | You know? I think that this car maqy have belonged to Bill Amberger, of Racine, OH; if so, it used to have a blue or green Custom Coronet interior.
I first saw Bill's car around 1985, at a Detroit WPC Club's national meet.
If so, I've got some photos of it, in its earlier life.
Barn-find, indeed, if it's Bill's former ride.
Edited by d500neil 2008-09-28 11:45 PM
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Account Suspended (Steve Hobby / Leaburn Patey Alias)
Posts: 18
| Car never had a color change.De Lisio bought it from original owner elderly lady back in 1986
Here are the scanned pics from the 1990 magazine article.
http://s51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/68Cbarge/other%20stuff/
In the E bay listing note hte exact same fuzzy dice,dent in rear bumper,copy of the article on a piece of cardboard,and the original hubcaps still in the trunk.
I dunno how to post pics here,yet.
Edited by canuckfins 2008-09-29 12:03 AM
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Account Suspended (Steve Hobby / Leaburn Patey Alias)
Posts: 18
| Neil take yer head out of the stars (to put it lightly)
I signed up here to inform people here about this bogus E bay listing and you are trying to take credit?? BTW you're welcome.
Article shows it has a heater and heater hoses connected.
The car got the D500 Hemi upgrade,wheels and tires,and a tach.That's it.
The car was seen in cruise nights in Northern New York area
and also at a big show in Northern NY some years ago as well.
Mods can feel free to delete my membership.
Mr hoity toity dont care what the little guy has to say.
Edited by canuckfins 2008-09-29 12:26 AM
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Expert
Posts: 1918
Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | Great work, guys - another faker debunked.
Preservation = good. Fraud = bad. |
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Account Inactive by Request
Posts: 1601
| Ahh, another example of what Bishop and the boys do best!!! We sure don't want any misrepresented cars running around now, do we. And as usuall, Bishop takes credit for the kill! Nice work!! |
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Expert
Posts: 1918
Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | I think the intent here was, not so much to put the owner down for not having an original D-500/D-501, but more to slam him/her for trying to pass off a fake D-500/D-501 as a real one as well as to inform prospective buyers who may be unaware of said fact. Did I say that right?
Then again, I'm sure you wouldn't mind dropping $15K worth of slik for a sow's ear, right?
Edited by 1955Coronado 2008-09-29 7:51 AM
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Account Inactive by Request
Posts: 1601
| $15K worth of silk for a sow's ear that I really like wouldn't be bad? Just as long as it was a fully documented and verified sow's ear--don't want none of them thar fakes, even if they are the purtiest of the bunch! |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Waitasecond, did I miss something, here?
Has some post been deleted?
I happened to post initially on this thread, and said that the car was not a Super D500.
Dwight comes on and says that it's not even a real D500.
I mention that i may have known of this car, when it belonged to Bill Amberger.
Gary Johnson mentions that a potential buyer may not, now, have been ripped off on this deal.
Dwight comes back and says "thanks" , and that the ebay auction has been pulled.
I mention that I think that I may have known this car, and its former owner.
Dwight comes back and accuses me of grandstanding on the credit for de-bunking the auction.
Mark Cederquist congratulates 'us' on de-bumking a bogus auction.
Jim Helm, then, comes on with his typical snide personal attacks (thought you'd left this website, Jim?)
What I don't understand is Dwight's vitriol toward me (Jim's attacks are a 'given').
Dwight; I give you FULL credit in de-bunking this car (so, maybe Jim will be able to try to attack you, too, personally, from
now on).
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Clive Reeve is offline right now, but I've just sent him a couple pics of Bill Amberger's former car, as seen by me
at the 1985 WPC Club's national meet, in Detroit.
I still believe that this 'auction' car may have belonged to Bill, but, maybe, there are two really nice condition
Coronet 2-dr sedans in this color scheme.
Maybe y'all can decide if my post was offensive to Dwight, somehow.
If so, I apologize, Dwight.
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Account Inactive by Request
Posts: 1601
| Thanks for welcoming me back, Neil. Glad to be here! Believe it or not, I used to be one of the staunchist "purists" of the bunch, but I just don't give a crap about that stuff anymore. I would much rather throw a little levity at the "sacred cows" that seems to get you so riled up. And I've never thought of myself as clever enough to be "snide", but I'll take that as a compliment. And if it's any consolation, you haven't offended me? |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Thanx, Jim; I was/am more concerned about new-member Dwight getting upset with me, for taking 'credit' on exposing
this car as being mis-represented.
Hopefully, when Clive awakes, he'll post my two pics of Bill Amberger's car, which, I believe, will bear a striking resemblance
to 'this' car.
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Location: .Norfolk..Mafia.. ,England UK | d500neil - 2008-09-29 10:36 PM
Thanx, Jim; I was/am more concerned about new-member Dwight getting upset with me, for taking 'credit' on exposing
this car as being mis-represented.
Hopefully, when Clive awakes, he'll post my two pics of Bill Amberger's car, which, I believe, will bear a striking resemblance
to 'this' car.
I ain,t been to Bed Yet................. LOL
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | ....look familiar?
Bill owned this car until around 1986-1987. |
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Account Suspended (Steve Hobby / Leaburn Patey Alias)
Posts: 18
| Neil,water under the bridge.
Sometimes you cant see what you are looking for when it is right at your feet...
In the magazine article,Larry says he bought his Coronet from the estate of the original an elderly lady four years ago.(So,in 1990 that would put him back to 1986)
It may be the same car.
Bill's car shows different hubcaps compared to Larry's car.Also,Bills car has no fender skirts,the D500 clone does and shows in the 1990 article wearing them,too.
The car in the auction is indeed the car with the skirts.Plus the magazine clippinfs are in the trunk undr the boxes of parts LOOK closely! You will see the original spinner hubcaps in the trunk that the car worn in 1990.
The article shows the exact set of fuzzy dice in the E bay car--Left lower bumper has a sharp dent in it,and a soft dent in rear bumper,and poor fit of the trunk lind and bumper. In 1990 the car showed 41,000 miles.The listing showed 51,000 so ten grand over 18 years is not much.
The car I know of frequented cruise nights and was seen around Rochester NY area,Clyde NY,Lyons,NY.
The article also states that a quarter panel had been replace very early on in the car's life.It does not state which one.So there should be some overspray on the car somewhere.
Edited by canuckfins 2008-09-29 9:16 PM
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Account Suspended (Steve Hobby / Leaburn Patey Alias)
Posts: 18
| The article also states that LArry did buy the car in OHIO.
The trunk pics also show the hubcaps that it worn in the pics shown when Bill owned it.
Edited by canuckfins 2008-09-29 9:17 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Dwight, the car has MAG wheels, on it now; the OEM plain hubcaps, just like on Bill's car, are seen residing
inside the car's trunk.
The presence of aftermarket wheel skirts is not even an issue, with anything relevant to this car.
Bill is/was not ever a little-old-lady, or an "estate".
Larry bought the car from Bill.
So, we both "know" of this car; I just knew it before you did.
And, of course, it's not a D500.
BTW, welcome aboard!
Do you own any FWDLK cars?
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 990
| Thank you, everyone, bottom line, the car is a fake, clone, whatever, being passed off as a real one. That's what matters.
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Account Suspended (Steve Hobby / Leaburn Patey Alias)
Posts: 18
| Unfortunately,I do not own any forward look cars.Up here in the salt belt they never really did hold up well.There are few left in the old yards that are composting into the ground beyond repair.
Canadian built finned cars were unique with their Dodge front clips on Plymouth bodies and shared drivetrains.
I may end up with a finned car yet-never know.
I did visit Miss B this summer.Boy,she is a site to behold.Reading the signatures off the whitewalls was awesome.She is a time machine indeed-despite her condition.She is a museum piece,IMO.
But that is another topic..
I do own 2 68 Chryslers,and a 87 Diplomat.
Edited by canuckfins 2008-09-29 10:49 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Dwight, my own car is a cancer-survivor of Northern Indiana !
If you want to tackle a real, do-able, restoration challenge, and at an entry-level PRICE (a big consideration, nowadays)
check out that 1956 D500 "Golden Lancer" Custom Royal(?) 2-dr HT, on evilpay, at the top of this board.
Seller don't know what he's got, there!
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Location: Seville, OH | d500neil - 2008-09-29 6:23 PM
The presence of aftermarket wheel skirts is not even an issue, with anything relevant to this car.
Except that they do nothing for the car. With few exceptions, skirts do not work on a FL vehicle. They make them look like the bloated GM offerings of the era. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Swept57 - 2008-10-01 8:24 PM
With few exceptions, skirts do not work on a FL vehicle. They make them look like the bloated GM offerings of the era.
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Oooh boy, Sid is gonna be mad when he reads this !  |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
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Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | Swept57 - 2008-10-01 5:24 AM
d500neil - 2008-09-29 6:23 PM
The presence of aftermarket wheel skirts is not even an issue, with anything relevant to this car.
Except that they do nothing for the car. With few exceptions, skirts do not work on a FL vehicle. They make them look like the bloated GM offerings of the era.
You know that I second this opinon with Exner himself - he was fashinated by the wheels of a car and wanted the wheelwells to take an active part of the design. I think that he did an excellant work that should not be hidden. |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: northern germany | wizard - 2008-10-01 5:09 AM
You know that I second this opinon with Exner himself
how can you know?! look at the ultra low wheel cut outs of 60/61 118wb plymouths and dodges. like build in skirts! also skirts were OE OPTIONS!  and exner wasn't THE god of design. IMO his dreamcars and post FL cars SUCK. and he did some "mistakes" even during the forwardlook era. just look at the ugly bloated roofine of 57-59 SEDANS aka turtlebacks...just like the bloated 59/60 GM sedans, not very graceful.
Edited by 1960fury 2008-10-01 8:13 AM
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
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Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | I read the biography Sid "Virgil Exner Visioneer by Peter Grist, ISBN 978-1-84584-118-8 - that's really an interesting book, you should read it too!
Actually Exner loved the form of the wheels and many of the project cars had full wheel openings (which I don't really like), but the production cars had all sculptured sweeping wheelwells.
Since that I know that you like the fenderskirts, there was also project cars with fenderskirts, for instance the Imperial D'Elegance and the Plymouth Plainsman.
In the 60-ties, he once again went back to designs with full open or almost full open wheel wells like on the Bugatti 65 studies and the 66 Duesenberg studies. |
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Location: northern germany | wizard - 2008-10-01 8:17 AM
Exner loved the form of the wheels
if he loved the "form of wheels" he should have designed "radiused" wheel openings ala 55 buick  which he apparently didn't, and his wheelopenings clearly hide/alter "the form of wheels"...
Edited by 1960fury 2008-10-01 8:42 AM
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 13045
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | If your going to quote Sid, then quote correctly - here's what you cut away;
and many of the project cars had full wheel openings (which I don't really like), but the production cars had all sculptured sweeping wheelwells.
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Location: Seville, OH | Didn't intend to make anyone mad. Sid does bring up a good point about the sedans. Maybe that is why the skirts don't work for me on this car. I have always preferred sedans to hardtops though. When I bought my 57 I had a real hard time justing finding one. |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
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Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | I'm not mad at anyone, sometimes I don't agree with all opinions all the time. |
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Location: northern germany | wizard - 2008-10-01 9:03 AM
If your going to quote Sid, then quote correctly -
i did, but from where did you get that statement "exner loved the form of the wheel" from the book or did you just made that up? you can't see that exner was into round shapes, fortunatly, at least during the forwardlook era, otherwise his cars would have looked like beetles. so unless you can provide proof that mr exner said these words it is YOU who "quotes" incorrectly |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
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Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | LMAO, Sid, you are even more stubborn than I am! See this link to my album http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/photos/show-album.asp?albumid=247... - I had to upload it to my album so that you actually could read the text. I told you to read the book - now you'll get a sample for free.
Then, sadly I conclude that we hijacked this thread - so we better stop. |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: northern germany | yes i read the page and... ? maybe you send the wrong link? all i see is a (imo ugly) PRE FL era european style car. certainly NOT forwardlook... i never denied exner designed radiused wheel arches. as i said, he was not THE god of car design and designed a couple of real UGLY cars. just look at 60/61 valiants... ford did a better job designing compact cars.
Edited by 1960fury 2008-10-01 1:50 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Wait a minute; I gotta go get my POPCORN; be right back...... |
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Inactive by Request
Posts: 1292
Location: Lovely place | Imagine if Exner had only designed European cars - what would be the design of Mopars from the late 50's/early 60's...? Would we still be enthusiastic about them? Anyway, I'm not a fan of those skirts either, kills the flowing lines - especially in a performance version (like D500) I'd like to see wheels. I have two buckets of Popcorn here, want a share?
Edited by Sisu 2008-10-01 7:26 PM
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'57 Dodge D501?
