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| Hi,
Wondering what problems I will encounter if I upgrade to a torqueflite. Are the mountings and propshaft the same?
Also fitting the pushbutton system, is there anything to watch out for? Are the brackets etc the same?
Many thanks,
Leo |
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Regular
Posts: 67
Location: Memphis, TN, USA | As far as I know, the tranys (pf and cast iron tf) will swap without having to change torque converters or housings or driveshafts. I did this swap on a '57 Desoto firesweep and had one problem:
The tf I installed was a '58 or 59 (I think!!!!!!!!!!!!) from a chrysler- the shift cable was a different style. So I had to remove the 57 shift cable from the pushbutton unit and install a later cable (I used one from a '64 Dodge polara). I adjusted the cable with the trany oil pan off so that could lie under it and watch exactly what was happening.
Everything works great now!  |
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Account Suspended (Steve Hobby Alias)
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Location: North West Jorsey | You have a trans mount too to deal with. I got a custom cable from Imperial Industries that had a 48" jacket made up for my conversion. Can't weld worth a damn with Bi-focals
Edited by 62chrysler 2004-09-21 12:47 PM
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Location: Jamaica Plain, MA | Hey there, this is an OLD post, but I wonder what the consensus is. Will a cast iron TF bolt onto the bell/torque converter for a PF equipped car? This would be a 1958 Dodge Red Ram 325. Not so worried about mounts and the control box, that part is easy.
Thanks,
Jon |
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Posts: 1730
Location: Michigan | I believe it will. The Bell housings vary from year to year but if you get the converter plate, bell housing from the same year I find it will work. Imperial Services has some pics of the trans mounts. I think they are different but not sure. They also indicate all the cables and trans / models they work with. http://www.imperialservices.net/Cparts.html
That should help answer your question. |
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Posts: 3393
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | You certainly don't want to use a pf convertor with a tf trans even it it fits, way too loose. |
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Posts: 1493
Location: Jamaica Plain, MA | Thanks guys!
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Posts: 1819
Location: Vancouver, BC |
Powerflite and Torqueflite transmissions used the same torque converter for the same applications.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Actually, they did NOT use the same torque converter.
The Powerflite TQ's provide about 200 more stall-rpm than do the Torqueflite TQ's, so that the PF's can accelerate faster, due to their lack of the TF's 1st gear.
The PF is essentially the same unit as the TF, but without the TF's 1st gear, so the PF's had a 'faster' TQ and usually a lower rear end ratio than the TF cars have.
A good, cheap hop up to a TF trannie is to install a PF Torque converter, and a REAL good hop up, in a liquid-cooled TF, is to install an air cooled (it has cooling fins on it) Powerflite torque converter in it--for better performance and to provide for additional cooling effect.
A cool trannie is a happy trannie; the liquid-cooled guys didn't necessarily perform better than the air-cooled guys, but the L-C units could live longer due to their better (more expensive and efficient) cooling systems.
And, BTW, I converted Horrie's OEM air-cooled transmission to a (Chrysler-) liquid-cooled trannie,
but have installed an air-cooled PF torque converter in him.
With his dialed-in distributor and the PF TQ, he accelerates very nicely, with the very high 2.76:1 rear
end gear set that I also installed in him, and oh, yeah: his TF's also been modified for higher RPM gear shifts.
And, then, there's the Type F transmission fluid in him, for faster/harder (more efficient) gear engagements...
Edited by d500neil 2012-07-06 3:38 AM
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Posts: 3577
Location: Blythewood, SC | You do realize that 200 rpm does not make a difference with converter stall speed. Also stall speed can vary with engine torque. Your "theory" about a powerflite converter creating better acceleration in a torqueflite does not hold water. |
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Posts: 1443
Location: Oconomowoc Wi | d500neil - 2012-07-06 2:18 AM Actually, they did NOT use the same torque converter. The Powerflite TQ's provide about 200 more stall-rpm than do the Torqueflite TQ's, so that the PF's can accelerate faster, due to their lack of the TF's 1st gear. The PF is essentially the same unit as the TF, but without the TF's 1st gear, so the PF's had a 'faster' TQ and usually a lower rear end ratio than the TF cars have. A good, cheap hop up to a TF trannie is to install a PF Torque converter, and a REAL good hop up, in a liquid-cooled TF, is to install an air cooled (it has cooling fins on it) Powerflite torque converter in it--for better performance and to provide for additional cooling effect. A cool trannie is a happy trannie; the liquid-cooled guys didn't necessarily perform better than the air-cooled guys, but the L-C units could live longer due to their better (more expensive and efficient) cooling systems. And, BTW, I converted Horrie's OEM air-cooled transmission to a (Chrysler-) liquid-cooled trannie, but have installed an air-cooled PF torque converter in him. With his dialed-in distributor and the PF TQ, he accelerates very nicely, with the very high 2.76:1 rear end gear set that I also installed in him, and oh, yeah: his TF's also been modified for higher RPM gear shifts. And, then, there's the Type F transmission fluid in him, for faster/harder (more efficient) gear engagements... Neil, Can you elaborate on the taller 2.76:1 highway rear end gears and the higher Torquflight gear shifts. This sounds very much like the arrangement that I have been discussing with Safety Mike for my '59. I wonder if Big M may have a set of those gears available. |
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Location: Jamaica Plain, MA | So it seems there are different opinions about this. I've never heard of such a thing!  |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I am not going to pretend to be a mechanical engineer, but, I have it on good (enough) authority, from several men who
do know about the torque converters, that the Powerflite's TQ allows for a higher stall speed, and, therefore, allows
about 200 more RPM's to be built up before the car moves out, so, it accelerates at a higher initial speed than the TF's
TQ allows (or needs....with its built-in 1st gear, that the PF's do not have in them).
As a consequence, the PF TQ will NOT allow the car to drive-away, in gear (like at 4-5 MPH) like the TF TQ's does
do (where you have to plant your foot on the brake to keep it from rear-ending the guy in front of you).
On the down-side, the PF TQ will build up more internal friction and will run hotter than the TF's TQ does, but, PF
transmission failures are not notorious, from TQ-overheating, but, an air-cooled PF TQ, installed into a liquid-cooled
TF will not present any overheating issues.
The PF's TQ is really a nice thing to have in a Hemi engine, as the Hemis are not good accelerators, from a dead
stop.
Edited by d500neil 2012-07-06 3:03 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Garythepartsdoc@glnelson.com is a guru on the transmissions (and, on the torque converters, as above mentioned).
He makes several upgrade pieces, like lightened governor weights and springs, and also a couple other goodies,
that allows for a TF to come alive, and not to short-shift on you.
These upgrades, along with F-Type trannie fluid, will provide for relatively harsh, quick upshifts at elevated speeds (which is, technically, a very-good thing for your trannie's lifetime, but, the shifts can be relatively unpleasant, if you are accustomed to imperceptible shifting).
It's kinda hard to state categorically, without a tachometer and a calibrated speedo (which H. does NOT have, any longer, what with his 2.76 rear gear, which reduces the indicated MPH on the speedo)....and, it depends upon the RATE of your acceleration, too (big-time), but, 1st gear, in 'normal' operation probably upshifts at 25-ish MPH.
Fuggedabout the 2:3 upshift, with the 2.76 ratio....80, at WOT?
Upshifts can be manually created by backing off of the loud pedal, which will present a much milder shift result.
The 2.76 and the 2.93 ratios will be the salvation of our cars, as they provide for smooth, quiet, efficient operation (BUT: the bad-assed build-up of the engine/camshaft/exhausts will still be very apparent).
Another real good mod-trick is to adapt an XJ-Jag's 2 1/2" viscous fan clutch to the DOD/PLY models, as the fan blades are
located too close to the radiator to install (comfortably) the typical 3" fan clutch that the CHY/DeS/IMP's have
on them.
A viscous clutch, in addition to providing extra power and efficiency, will allow you to HEAR your engine, instead of its
full-time-fan's whang-whang-whang noise.
Here's a shot of H's Jag fan clutch, which is a very-close ringer to the OE ones.
That's also a mid-60's Hemi 7-blade fan, there, but, you can bolt up the OEM 4-blade unit, too (or any other MoPar 6-7 blade fan).
(And, peeking out at you are the 'liquid-cooling' lines that run to/from the transmission, from the rad's bottom tank, where its trannie cooler is installed).
The fan belt is recognizable.
Edited by d500neil 2012-07-06 3:44 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | If you do go with the 2.93 or 2.76 gear sets, you should, also, have your car's distributor be re-curved or
adjusted/hot-rodded, so as to provide maximum efficiency; the FWDLK dissies are woefully under-advanced
(catering to the lowest-denominator driving-masses), but the dissies' adjustments have been discussed in
other appropriate threads.
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Posts: 1493
Location: Jamaica Plain, MA | Nice clutch! I have the same one... So here is the deal, my 57 Firesweep has a 58 Dodge 325 and PF, all rebuilt and nicey-nice. But I have a 1958 392 Hemi TF out on an Imperial sitting on my bench. Naturally, I want to put it in. Anyone (Neil!!) know if this is a dumb idea? I have the TF converter, too. |
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Location: Blythewood, SC | 200 rpm is the difference between idle in neutral and idle in gear. You are making a mountain out of a molehill. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | The viscous fan clutch is a mole-hole, the liquid-cooled trannie is a mole-hole, Type F is a mole-hole, building up a trannie is a mole-hole, adding another cooling row to the rad is a mole-hole (you can see it, in the above photo), "van-rated" Diamondback radials are a mole-hole, so, I guess the PF TQ is a mole-hole, too.
That's quite a cumulative hole, there....not including the engine or the suspension mods.
But, building your dissie to perform to the max benefit of your engine is NOT a mole-hole, however.
Edited by d500neil 2012-07-06 6:37 PM
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Posts: 3577
Location: Blythewood, SC | I didn't say I have an issue with your other modifications.
Well, okay, I do think that your tires are not safe for a passenger car. But that's a different thread.
Your argument that 200 rpm makes any difference at all in the way a car accelerates is ludicrous. If you believe it really does make a difference they you are more gullible than a Sham-wow customer. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Scam WOW....every little bit helps, Brain.
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Posts: 1493
Location: Jamaica Plain, MA | Brian, Neil... Stop fighting and tell Jon what to do. If I hijacked a new thread I'd quietly slouch away. But, this one is from 2004, and I would like your advice, converters aside... Will the 58 transmission from a 392 bolt onto my 325? Does it even line up? It's heavy, btw, so advice in 100 degree weather with 85% humidity is more valuable to me than your charming rivalry. And I mean that with all respect. I don't know what a mole-hole is, btw. |
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Location: N.W. Fla. | JT Vincent - 2012-07-06 10:23 PM
Brian, Neil... Stop fighting and tell Jon what to do. If I hijacked a new thread I'd quietly slouch away. But, this one is from 2004, and I would like your advice, converters aside... Will the 58 transmission from a 392 bolt onto my 325? Does it even line up? It's heavy, btw, so advice in 100 degree weather with 85% humidity is more valuable to me than your charming rivalry. And I mean that with all respect. I don't know what a mole-hole is, btw. It should bolt right up to your engine, all bell patterns on the pre '62 non big blocks are the same. & an extra gear will help drivablility. That's why we have 6 speed A/Ts now instead of 2 speed. Don't know about lenth of the tranny as far as driveshaft is concerned or the tranny mount. |
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Posts: 1493
Location: Jamaica Plain, MA | Thank you George! I'll measure carefully on the DS and mount. I'm hoping this is a 3 hour upgrade. Wishful? |
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Posts: 3577
Location: Blythewood, SC | Very wishful.
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Posts: 1493
Location: Jamaica Plain, MA | Prob. It took me 2 months to redo my floors. But, I've done bolt-in tranny swaps in less than a day. Maybe not until it gets a little cooler out. |
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swapping powerflite to torqueflite on 58 Plymouth
