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Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-29 5:21 PM (#216271 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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When William Schmidt was put in charge, he obviously hoped he would keep the job, and some of the managment people did too, and cosied up to him. Others hoped for Ex's return and were not too friendly with Schmidt. This created two factions. Schmidt pushed a more Ford-like styling. I remember getting contrary directions from some of the execs, during this time. After Ex returned, he showed he was in charge again, doing the
FliteWing and Turboflite concept cars, and directing the '62's.

I don't know from nothin' about the interiors. They were done in studios we hardly ever visited. After Ex left, the studios were reorganized like Ford's, and the designers were in the same rooms the full size clays were sculpted, and usually directed the modeling. We then saw interior and instrument panel bucks. Exterior designers spent most of their careers on exteriors, and interior designers on interiors. There was a program close to the time I left where some exterior people had to work in interiors, and vice versa. I refused to go into interiors, knowing it would take a while to get up to speed there, and threatened to quit unless I stayed in exteriors. I stayed.

Why did the dash mounted mirrors change? Why did the push-button transmission selector go away? My guess is that the new conservative top management (Newburg, Townsend, Cafiero, etc. ) were afraid to be different from GM and Ford. The end of the Exner era, the "Forward Look", coincided with the leaving of Tex Colbert.
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-03-29 8:48 PM (#216310 - in reply to #216271)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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When exactly did Ex and Tex get their walking papers ? Weren't they both gone by the end of 60 ? .... 61 ?

It is probably more coincidence than anything, but the "feel" of a Mopar just dropped like a lead balloon after
1961 .... some elements lingered, but the "feel" just isn't the same, much like the difference between the 54's
and the 55's. It is as if the "soul" of what made these cars had "left the building". For the next five years it was
as if the company was lost and without a rudder until they seized on the chiseled look of the 66 models. But even
then, it was a deeply scaled back "reach for the top".

John, I really enjoy your posts and the anecdotal sidebar info. We can all read the books and know the stats, but
insight like yours is preciously rare. Thank you so much for sharing.
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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-29 8:51 PM (#216312 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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IMHO, and from looking at our cars, it seems obvious to me that the dash mounted rear view mirrors were a
necessary consequence of the new-low-for-57 FWDLK'ers.

The torsion bars really accounted for a lowering of the hoods, replacing the taller physically coil springs from the earlier
years.

Then, there's the drop-down floor pans which were necessary to accommodate the lowered rooflines, so that there was
not any real space for a roof-suspended rear view mirror, that did not significantly block out a major portion of the
driver's field of view.

In other words, the low mounted rear view mirror was an unfortunate consequence of the Forwardlook design.

The mirrors were moved closer to the driver in 1958+, to try to give 'him' more rearward view, and less mirror
vibration at speed, but, I have to say that I prefer the 1957 mirror positioning, to that of the 58, as my eyes have
difficulty in accommodating to the focus change involved in looking at, or 'finding' the 58 mirror, in relation to
my looking out of the windshield.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with our low mounted mirrors, unless there's somebody seated in the middle area,
or, unless I'm going more than 90 mph (vibration-city).

The push buttons went away, because Joe-Average didn't like them; different from the Lesser-Two major manufacturers' products.




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B/G 61
Posted 2010-03-29 8:57 PM (#216315 - in reply to #216312)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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d500neil - 2010-03-29 8:51 PM


The push buttons went away, because Joe-Average didn't like them; different from the Lesser-Two major manufacturers' products.




Push-buttons made it through '64 - I thought the Gov. "outlawed" them ??? No ???









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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-03-29 10:26 PM (#216332 - in reply to #216315)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Yes, it was a gov't mandate that dictated that all mfr's use a similar shift pattern and module.

Mopar was not the only mfr using oddball shifters. Buick had Reverse at the far end from Park,
Corvair had a dash shifter like Mopar did in '55. There may have been others ?

First year effective was 1965.

I always thought it was a Federal law, but a cursory internet search suggests it is a State-based
set of laws that mandated a driver's side exterior mirror on all cars mf'd after 01 Jan, 1965. I won
a court case years ago here in Washington based on this. I was cited for no outside rearview on
one of my old cars that had never had them. But as it is relevant to this thread, ... exterior mirrors
were not legally required on new cars well into the 1960's, and a stripper car could likely not have any.


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Chrycoman
Posted 2010-03-30 12:56 AM (#216350 - in reply to #216315)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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B/G 61 - 2010-03-29 5:57 PM

d500neil - 2010-03-29 8:51 PM
The push buttons went away, because Joe-Average didn't like them; different from the Lesser-Two major manufacturers' products.


Push-buttons made it through '64 - I thought the Gov. "outlawed" them ??? No ???



NO!!!!!!

Many people claim the federal government mandated the elimination of pushbuttons. One problem, though. The acts that gave the federal government the power to dictate standards to the auto industry were not ENACTED until 1966. The two acts enacted in 1966 were the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act and the Highway Safety Act. And it was not until 1968 that federal government began setting auto safety standards.

So, how could the government, in 1968, dictate standards to the auto industry in 1963? (The 1965 models went into production in August, 1964, and it takes more than a day or two, or even a month or two, to design, engineer, tool and produce a revised transmission mechanism.

The individual states in the U.S., and provinces in Canada, had laws concerning such things as rear view mirrors, seat belts, headlamps, back up lights and the like. Which is why it took two years to get the 48 states and nine provinces to accept the use of sealed beam headlamps for the 1940 models and longer for the acceptance of the four headlamp system in the late 1950's.

So the decision to drop pushbuttons was made by Chrysler management. By 1963 Chrysler was the only North American manufacturer to have pushbutton transmissions. Packard (1956), Mercury (1957-58), Monarch (1957) and Rambler (1958-62) all had, and dropped, the buttons. What does it say about a manufacturer that offers an item three other manufacturers tried and dropped?

The dashmounted rear view mirror was strictly a design item. Many European cars, especially sport models, had their mirrors on the instrument panel. And the Loewy-designed Studebaker coupes and convertibles of the 1940's with one-piece windshields had the mirror located there. It just gave the car a cleaner look through the windshield.

The reason they moved it from the centre was due to the fact if someone was seated in the centre of either the front or rear seat the driver saw nothing but the passenger, especially if the centre passenger was large or tall. By locating it just to the right of the driver gave an open space between the left and centre passengers. It worked fine on the European cars as the seats were too narrow for three across. Chrysler began moving the mirror back up to the top of the windshield with the 1960 models.
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Kenny J.
Posted 2010-03-30 1:55 AM (#216352 - in reply to #216332)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Doctor DeSoto - 2010-03-29 7:26 PM

I always thought it was a Federal law, but a cursory internet search suggests it is a State-based
set of laws that mandated a driver's side exterior mirror on all cars mf'd after 01 Jan, 1965. I won
a court case years ago here in Washington based on this. I was cited for no outside rearview on
one of my old cars that had never had them. But as it is relevant to this thread, ... exterior mirrors
were not legally required on new cars well into the 1960's, and a stripper car could likely not have any.





This reminds me of an incident in my hometown:

I have a friend who had a '59 Olds four door hardtop during the late 1980s. It was his "hobby car." The car had no seatbelts. Seatbelts were not required in cars sold new in Wisconsin prior to the 1962 model year.

He and his wife were traveling with their infant son. The child was riding in his mother's lap, in the front seat. They happened to park next to a patrol car. The Milwaukee police officer informed them the child had to be restrained in a car seat and the seat had to be restrained by a seatbelt. Well Jim figured he could "one up" the cop. So he told the officer that his car was a 1959 and it didn't require seatbelts. The cop fired back by replying, "Nobody can make you put seatbelts in that car, but I can nail you for child endangerment for carrying that kid in your lap in that car!"

From that day forward, the kid rode in a car seat, mounted in the rear seat of their daily driver '84 Escort.

K.
----- Original Message
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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-30 4:37 PM (#216441 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Bill, when CHRY moved the rear view mirror to the front of the dash, its use was still obscured by anyone
sitting in the middle seats.

The mirrors were low-mounted, due to the driver's frontal view being obscured when they might be installed from the
roof header panels, due to the newly-designed lowness of our cars.

I recalled your earlier message about the 1966 enactment of the uniform shift-lever law, and so waited for your message to arrive here regarding that matter.






Edited by d500neil 2010-03-30 4:39 PM
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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-30 4:41 PM (#216442 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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...In fact, regarding the necessarily-low-installed rear view mirrors, Dodge put out a 1957 TSB on their high-speed
vibration, and suggested shortening their shafts, to decrease the angle-of-the-dangle on them.




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B/G 61
Posted 2010-03-30 4:52 PM (#216443 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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I thought the review mirror on the dash was there so, we the driver, could check the speedo, rearview, and sideview mirrors (on the front fenders) with minimal eye/head movement (they were all on the same plane) - I think I read that somewhere - like an ad or owners booklet. . . or maybe I'm making it all up !!!! - I do believe I read that somewhere . . .
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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-30 5:03 PM (#216447 - in reply to #216443)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

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...Right, and that's what the 1957-positioning allows, a lot better view, than the 1958+ style provides (being up higher, and
in your face, so to speak).

I like the 1957-positioning a lot, that is, unless and until I'm carrying some passengers.

The 1958 mirror, being a tad higher-up, visually, would give the driver a better/closer
view to the rear, if the car has a steep "California Rake" on it; that's for sure.

Of course the 57/58 rear view mirrors were excellent, for deaf drivers....





Edited by d500neil 2010-03-30 5:06 PM
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Rebels-59
Posted 2010-03-30 6:03 PM (#216460 - in reply to #216447)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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POSTED FOR NEIL D500

Don't think that these photos have been offered up, previously.

These are from "Chrysler & Imperial, The Postwar Years"(Langworth, 1976).

Some of the captions are hard to read, so:

#2: Details of the clay models for the 1961 Imperial.

#4: Exner's plans for the '62 Chrysler....John Riccardo is shown.

#5/6: Dodge, center, emerged relatively the same as
it was in this studio photo, of FEB 1960. Imperial
was entirely altered.

#9: The 1963 Imperial ended up far different than it began,
in the minds of stylists...

#10: 1964 Chrysler clay model is close to final form.



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Rebels-59
Posted 2010-03-30 6:04 PM (#216461 - in reply to #216460)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-30 6:44 PM (#216473 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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in 160.jpg , above, you can see how the roofline of the 64+ Barracuda might have evolved.

So, while all of our (grand-)daddies were out buying the exciting new 1960 models, the Corp stylists had
THESE prospects being planned out for the next few years....






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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-30 8:15 PM (#216487 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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It's great to see these pix! Here is a full-size rendering I did for the 1963 Imperial. I was in the Imperial studio in 1960, and Exner was overseeing the design process. It's probably fortunate that the company brass decided not to put money into a new Imperial body, and go with facelifts for '61 and '62. I designed all the ornamentation and tail lamps for the '62, including the round eagle medallion.



('63 Imp fs Rendering 8x72.jpg)



(10 1959-1961 Imperial taillamp concept-Samsen.jpg)



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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-30 8:26 PM (#216490 - in reply to #216473)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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d500neil - 2010-03-30 6:44 PM

in 160.jpg , above, you can see how the roofline of the 64+ Barracuda might have evolved.



Not so. The '64 Barracuda roof was developed in clay by me, from one of my sketches. I had not seen the above clay at the time.

After working on the Barracuda, I did this sketch for a show car that never materialized. I was pushing big backlites!

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-30 8:33 PM




(63PlyShow7X72.jpg)



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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-30 8:31 PM (#216492 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Well, your Imperial rendition made it into becoming a full sized clay model, above, John, but it evolved into the 1963 Chrysler.

That's amazing history-documentation.


Did you know Mr. Riccardo, well? What works did he create?





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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-30 8:35 PM (#216493 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Saw Riccardo in the studios and in styling shows. Did not know him- I was on a much lower rung of the ladder. I don't know what he may have contributed to design.
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StillOutThere
Posted 2010-03-31 8:00 AM (#216545 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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John,

I'm curious how and when it was decided to file a patent application for design work with the US Patent Office.   It would seem like the use of the designs is so fleeting, and when I try to search the USPO for Chrysler patents a million things don't seem to be there that I would think would be there.

Here is one of your own for a wheel cover.   How many patents did you have?

http://www.google.com/patents?id=ufRxAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=samsen++%22chrysler+corporation%22&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=1#v=onepage&q=samsen%20%22chrysler%20corporation%22&f=false

There is a Google search tool for patents.   Google "google patents" to get to it and see what you can find.

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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-31 9:34 AM (#216549 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Most design features were not patented. Only a few items were, the thought being that others would not know which were, so wouldn't copy any. There seemed to be a gentlemen's agtreement between the companies that they would not copy each other, however, there was active espionage activities to find out what the competition was planning. I have patents for the '59 Desoto rear bumper and wheel cover. Usually the studio manager signed the patents, so it was a rare thing when a designer did. Maybe my manager, Dick Baird at the time, thought it would encourage a newbie designer with Desoto. Of course, I was an old experienced designer, having all of three years experience at Ford.
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57burb
Posted 2010-03-31 4:09 PM (#216569 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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As for the dash-mounted mirror-

The front of my wagon has been lowered -substantially- and the rear has too, but not to quite the same degree. The resultant rake made the car literally impossible to see out of as the OEM rearview mirror was aimed directly at the tailgate. I found a '58 mirror stalk and substituted it on the car (more involved than I would have thought) and I now have a usable mirror, although there is still about 1/3 of a mirrorfull of tailgate in the view.

And speaking of my old beater wagon-

John, can you give us any insight into the rust problems of the '57 cars and any impact you guys in the styling departments felt about that? It had to be a crush to your ego to see such beautifully styled cars go to market, only to see them quickly rust away!



Edited by 57burb 2010-03-31 4:10 PM
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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2010-03-31 5:09 PM (#216577 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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One of the advantages of the dash-mirror on my '62 NewYorker Wagon is that I never get blinded at night by other another car's headlights behind me. I usually only see their windshields.
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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-31 8:04 PM (#216588 - in reply to #216577)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

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Danny, you posted a photograph, on the Let's Go Racing thread, of a steeply California-Raked black
Plymouth tow car(?), that was so much inclined that the owner had to retrofit a header mounted mirror
on it, in order to be able to see out of its rear end.




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Sonoramic60
Posted 2010-04-04 3:44 PM (#217067 - in reply to #216588)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up


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Mr. Samson --
I've been out of the net for a while, so I'm a bit late on getting in on this, but it is a great thread and I thank you for your great contibutions to automotive art.
I would like to ask if you know how the "Golden Commando Power" and "SonoRamic Commando Power" badges (we used to call them "scare emblems") came about on the '60-'61 Plymouths? Dodge had the D-500 ones for a while, and GM had "Tripower" and "Fuel Injection" (as did those very few '58 Bendix-Chrysler jobs), and of course everybody put some sort of "V" for their V-8s, but it was rather a first time for Plymouth. I've always wondered if there was any conscious effort to advertise those engines or were the badges some things that were just stuck on as an afterthought?
Joe Godec
'57 Chrysler 300C (is there really any other 300C?), '60 Fury SonoRamic, '65 Fuelie Vette
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john samsen
Posted 2010-04-05 10:16 AM (#217170 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Joe,

As I write this, I'm looking at a little gold and black plate on my desk that says "Golden Commando Power".

Around 1962, there were two racing clubs sponsored by Chrysler Corp. The Dodge "RamChargers" and the Plymouth "Golden Commando's". A number of Mopar engineers and designers belonged to the clubs, and "besides souping up" their own cars, they had stock car racers which they ran in events. The Ram Chargers seemed to get most of the publicity. I think the name "Golden Commando" came from the Plymouth product planners and was used on the Plymouth engines, then picked up by the racing club. I was asked to design the graphics for the 1962-1965 race cars, and came up with the segmented stripe that went over the roof. This influenced me to put the segmented stripe on the 1971 Road runner. BTW, I designed the grille, tail lamps, bumprs, on the 1963 B-bodies- obviously trying to make the short little '62's look longer and wider. There is info on the Commandos at Allpar.com






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('63 Plymouth rear 7x72.jpg)



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Sonoramic60
Posted 2010-04-08 9:39 AM (#217644 - in reply to #217170)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up


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John --
Yep, I know about the ALLPAR stuff -- I contributed a little to it myself. Did you do any work on the '65 Fury? In 1964, I special ordered a '65 Sport Fury without seeing an actual car, just the dealer's sales brochure. The cover of that brochure had a "Medium Red Metallic" convertible with a matching interior on it, and I placed an order for a 2-dr h/t in the same colors, but with a 426S and 4-speed. It was a great car.
Joe Godec
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john samsen
Posted 2010-04-08 11:44 AM (#217653 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Nope, I didn't do much on the 1965 Fury, but did the final design of the fronts and rears of the 1966 Fury and Belvedere. But now we are getting away from the Forward Look era- I'd like to contribute to the Engle era of Mopar design; know of any post-FL forums?

John
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catman
Posted 2010-04-08 2:12 PM (#217667 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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John,

You may want to have a look at these:

http://www.cbodydrydock.com/forum.php
http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.com/welcome.html


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d500neil
Posted 2010-05-06 4:27 PM (#221999 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

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John, hopefully you are still hanging around these parts...

Here's a question that hasn't been asked, yet:

Over the years (1980's, anyway), I'd hear tell that the 57+ Mopes wheel openings' were specifically designed to
accommodate 15" wheels as OEM on them.

Our cars do look more balanced and comfortable residing on 15" wheels, rather than the 14"ers which were (eventually)
approved : ... in order to help lower the cars, and to accentuate their lengths--and oh yeah; to provide a comfortable ride
due to all the extra air which is contained inside them....

....but do you recall any formal plans or expectations that the 57+ers would have 15" wheels be installed on them?







Edited by d500neil 2010-05-06 4:28 PM
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-05-06 5:13 PM (#222012 - in reply to #221999)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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As long as we are talking 57 design, ... on the Chrysler - DeSoto (not Firesweep), who was responsible for the fender
shape .... namely the headlight hood and opening ? It looks very "feline" - much like the curves on a side view of a cat's
eye or ear. Was this possibly an inspiration ? How about the overswept curl at the point of the fin ?

Thanks in advance !

I have added a link with a good photo (top photo) showing this profile.

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=30557&...


Edited by Doctor DeSoto 2010-05-06 5:17 PM
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djMikulec
Posted 2011-03-27 5:21 PM (#266152 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Shame this thread died last year before the 15" wheel question could be answered, I've often wondered the same thing myself. But in any event, there's a wealth of fantastic info here nonetheless, and thanks to everyone who participated... I'm saving it for future reference. Is John still around? I have some questions about the 63 Newport that I'd love to ask (I'm awaiting delivery on one soon).
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john samsen
Posted 2011-03-27 7:30 PM (#266168 - in reply to #266152)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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See the "John Samsen" thread...general discussion

Don't know about 15" wheels ...I think the Imperial had them.

John
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ttotired
Posted 2013-07-16 7:03 PM (#386139 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Thanks Neil for reminding me of this excelent thread

Does anyone keep in touch with Mr Samsen?

Very interesting man

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dlvh
Posted 2015-07-19 4:28 PM (#484868 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Location: Michigan, USA
Ok...reviving an old thread, but does anyone have any pictures of the 1960 Full Size Plymouth line...either sketches or clays? Being a former owner of several of those, I'd love to see them in development form.

dlvh
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mikes2nd
Posted 2019-02-16 9:33 PM (#578310 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up


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another concept drawing. Pre plucking

 

I really want to make this car...



Edited by mikes2nd 2019-02-16 10:11 PM




(Virgil_Exner_s_Valiant_concept.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments Virgil_Exner_s_Valiant_concept.jpg (29KB - 19 downloads)
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Chrycoman
Posted 2019-02-16 10:38 PM (#578311 - in reply to #578310)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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mikes2nd - 2019-02-16 9:33 PM

another concept drawing. Pre plucking

 

I really want to make this car...




Except for the streamlining and the swept back windshield, it's a 1961 Valiant 2 door hardtop.

Too bad the production model got squared up.

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57burb
Posted 2019-02-18 11:52 AM (#578368 - in reply to #578311)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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that roof is gonna need a LOT of help to get it looking swoopy like the black drawing



(Virgil_Exner_s_Valiant_concept.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments Virgil_Exner_s_Valiant_concept.jpg (165KB - 17 downloads)
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mikes2nd
Posted 2019-02-18 5:37 PM (#578379 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up


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Chrylser would have overtaken GM and Ford if they actually made cars as cool as their concepts.. I mean did they simply go, "how ugly can we make this beautiful design????"...
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Viper Guy
Posted 2019-02-22 9:38 PM (#578533 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Practically overruled style and hence? You see the results.
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