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Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up
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59 Togamaster
Posted 2010-03-22 7:24 AM (#215194 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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John, What about the Norsmen? That went down with the Andria Doria? The car with no A pillar? Did you work on that one or was it a Ghia design?
Thanks.
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wizard
Posted 2010-03-22 8:00 AM (#215197 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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This is like crossfire John, but I have a question; Do you know anything about who the designers where that worked on the Chrysler 1960 model? Since I own a '60 Saratoga, I'm interested to know more about the 60 Chrysler.



(Resize of 03_05_2008_Karlshamn_square.jpg)



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Attachments Resize of 03_05_2008_Karlshamn_square.jpg (95KB - 408 downloads)
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-22 8:19 AM (#215198 - in reply to #215194)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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59 Togamaster - 2010-03-22 7:24 AM

John, What about the Norsmen? That went down with the Andria Doria? The car with no A pillar? Did you work on that one or was it a Ghia design?
Thanks.


The Norseman was an experimental car designed by Exner's team, and built by Ghia. I did not have anything to do with it.

Improving driver vision was a big goal in the 1950's, which resulted in wrap-around windshields, and attempts to eliminate A-pillars. At Ford, in 1954, I designed the interior (the only interior I ever designed) of the experimental car D-524, later called the "Beldone". It had a cantilever roof and no A-pillar. This car still exists.





(1956 NORSEMAN 8x72.jpg)



(Beldone side 8x72.jpg)



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Attachments 1956 NORSEMAN 8x72.jpg (123KB - 406 downloads)
Attachments Beldone side 8x72.jpg (65KB - 423 downloads)
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-22 8:46 AM (#215199 - in reply to #215197)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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wizard - 2010-03-22 8:00 AM

This is like crossfire John, but I have a question; Do you know anything about who the designers where that worked on the Chrysler 1960 model? Since I own a '60 Saratoga, I'm interested to know more about the 60 Chrysler.


Dick Macadam was a designer in the Chrysler studio at the time the 1960 model was designed, and became VP of design after Engle left. Macadam has not been heard from in many years.
Chester Limbaugh joined the Chrysler studio in 1958, when the 1961 Chrysler was being face-lifted. Chet is still around, as far as I know, and may have info re. the 1960 models. Try googling for him. Also, Jeff Godshall is still around, and may be reached at (248) 576 2047. Jeff is the historian for Mopar design and has written articles in several automotive magazines.
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wizard
Posted 2010-03-22 9:47 AM (#215203 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Interesting John, thank you for the information!
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Chrycoman
Posted 2010-03-22 6:20 PM (#215274 - in reply to #215194)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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59 Togamaster - 2010-03-22 4:24 AM

John, What about the Norsmen? That went down with the Andria Doria? The car with no A pillar? Did you work on that one or was it a Ghia design?
Thanks.


Stick my nose in here . . .

All Chrysler Corporation "Ghia" cars were designed by Chrysler and built by Ghia, except one, perhaps. Ghia produced a car in 1951 called the Plymouth XX-500 to show Chrysler what they could do. Chrysler liked what they saw, as far as quality and price were concerned, and the rest is history. Over the years I have read the styling was by Ghia and others say it was Chrysler. The 1960 Valiant took a few styling cues from the XX-500 - the grille and side window treatment in particular.

A number of writers these days claim the 1950's Chrysler show cars were designed by Ghia. That is called "revisionist history" - revising history to suite the ignorance / laziness of the writer.
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-22 7:39 PM (#215284 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Chrycoman,

First, I greet you in the beautiful Vancouver! We watched the Winter Olympics, and were impressed at how well it was run, and marvelled at the great facilities!

You are right- the XX500 was designed by Italian designers at Ghia.

Actually, I think the Valiant showcased several of Exner's pet motifs. The classic grille he used on many concept cars, the horizintal character line that becomes the rear quarter, (used on the VW Karmann Ghia, D'Elegance, etc.), the "toilet seat", etc. The horizontal "wing" running from the headlamps through the door was his new idea that he showed on the "FliteWing" concept car, which the 1962 "S series" cars followed.





Edited by john samsen 2010-03-22 7:54 PM




(1950_PLYMOUTH_XX-500 8x72.JPG)



(60 Valiant 7x72.jpg)



(1953 CHRYSLER D'ELEGANCE 8x72.JPG)



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Attachments 1950_PLYMOUTH_XX-500 8x72.JPG (58KB - 409 downloads)
Attachments 60 Valiant 7x72.jpg (54KB - 390 downloads)
Attachments 1953 CHRYSLER D'ELEGANCE 8x72.JPG (94KB - 448 downloads)
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-22 8:09 PM (#215290 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info,1962 Mopars



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Here are the only photos I know of, of the 1962 "S series" cars. Standard size cars were planned for 1962 Plymouth and Dodge models. Exner and his private studio designed the concept car "FliteWing". We had to follow this concept in designing the 1962 lines. The big cars were quite impressive, expecially the Plymouth. Ceo William Newberg created the big fiasco when he mistakenly thought the Chevrolet '62's were to be downsized, and ordered a crash program to design smaller '62 Plymouth's and Dodges.

The big '62 Plymouth is on the turntable in both views. I'm sure it would have been a winner! These pictures are in the book "Virgil Exner, Visioneer".

I think the top brass believed that Ex's "wings" made the cars look shorter, and so Elwood Engle (recommended by good old George Walker) came to Chrysler to make the cars look longer, etc., and more like Ford's.

We had to work around the clock on eight hour shifts to get the redesigning done. Below is my concept for a "FliteWing" Desoto. Note the flush glass and integrated roof-rear quarter. Before the GTO and Duster!

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-22 8:23 PM




(1959 DODGEFLITEWING 6x72.jpg)



(1962 S series cars A 8x72.jpg)



(1962 S series cars B 8x72.jpg)



(1959-1962 Desoto concept 8x72-Samsen.jpg)



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Attachments 1959 DODGEFLITEWING 6x72.jpg (20KB - 465 downloads)
Attachments 1962 S series cars A 8x72.jpg (45KB - 457 downloads)
Attachments 1962 S series cars B 8x72.jpg (47KB - 412 downloads)
Attachments 1959-1962 Desoto concept 8x72-Samsen.jpg (62KB - 478 downloads)
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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-22 8:28 PM (#215293 - in reply to #215290)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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John, please tell us about how the factory went about destroying and discarding the full size mock ups
and their promotional artwork, etc. .

I realize that there must have been just a tremendous amount of surplus artwork which was eliminated.

Didn't any of the common folk ever get to liberate any of the original unique artifacts---beyond you designers,
I mean.

Weren't the Corp honchos interested in saving any 'souvenirs' ???

I know that one exec saved a D501 emblem as a paperweight, and that Lee Smith eventually
received it, from the guy, decades later.






Edited by d500neil 2010-03-22 8:31 PM
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StillOutThere
Posted 2010-03-22 8:46 PM (#215296 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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I'm going to add several pics of the Flitewing.  Perhaps Mr. Samsen would care to comment on this but I see element throughout this car that could be said to have precipitated into the '63-64 Chrysler body, particularly as applied to the 300J and 300K.  Am I wrong?



Edited by StillOutThere 2010-03-22 8:50 PM




(795px-Dodge20FlightWing20Concept20Car20Full20Fron0BW.jpg)



(Dodge20FlightWing20Concept20Car20Top20Frt20Qtr20BW.jpg)



(Dodge_Flite_Wing_1961_30.jpg)



(flitewing2.jpg)



(flitewing4.jpg)



(flitewing5.jpg)



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Attachments 795px-Dodge20FlightWing20Concept20Car20Full20Fron0BW.jpg (62KB - 724 downloads)
Attachments Dodge20FlightWing20Concept20Car20Top20Frt20Qtr20BW.jpg (177KB - 555 downloads)
Attachments Dodge_Flite_Wing_1961_30.jpg (274KB - 382 downloads)
Attachments flitewing2.jpg (79KB - 392 downloads)
Attachments flitewing4.jpg (40KB - 417 downloads)
Attachments flitewing5.jpg (73KB - 402 downloads)
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-03-22 11:42 PM (#215332 - in reply to #215296)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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These cars, when compared to the FL designs, is like having someone slide your steak dinner
off the table and slide a sh!t sandwich back in its place. Yuck !!!
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SalesGuy
Posted 2010-03-23 1:46 AM (#215350 - in reply to #215199)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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john samsen - 2010-03-22 10:46 PM
Also, Jeff Godshall is still around, and may be reached at (248) 576 2047. Jeff is the historian for Mopar design and has written articles in several automotive magazines.


Thanks for the tip, John. I'm writing a book about the Australian AT4 truck and how it came into being. It was a co-operative effort with International Harvester in the late 50s, but that's all I know. Do you think that Jeff would be able to shed any light on things ?
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-23 8:12 AM (#215370 - in reply to #215293)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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d500neil - 2010-03-22 8:28 PM

John, please tell us about how the factory went about destroying and discarding the full size mock ups
and their promotional artwork, etc. .

I realize that there must have been just a tremendous amount of surplus artwork which was eliminated.


Full size clay models were recycled. They were wooden armatures, or 'Bucks" with several inches of clay covering the wood. The clay was carved off and went back into the clay ovens where it was softened. Concept cars were destroyed, shipped to other countries, or sometimes left to rust in some lot. A number of these have turned up, and been restored.

Few people thought these things would be worth much. We had no idea there would be fans of these cars collecting them decades later. In 1950, a friend of my father had a Deusenberg model J phaeton, perfectly restored. He said it was worth about $7000. I passed up buying a 1937 Cord supercharged convert in very good condition. A friend of mine picked up a 1913 Model T roadster in good running condition for $55, and sold it a couple years later for $175.

Since I was a kid, I collected many kinds of things, which is why I saved artifacts.

The art work in the studios was put in drawers after it was no longer shown, and periodically it was removed and shredded. There were tons of sketches and renderings destroyed. Sometimes an exec would ask for a particularly nice rendering to hang in his office.





(29 Cummings Dodge 7x72.jpg)



(Brownlee Imperial 50's 7x72.jpg)



(37 ANDERSON, LOST IN PARIS 7x72.JPG)



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Attachments 29 Cummings Dodge 7x72.jpg (35KB - 390 downloads)
Attachments Brownlee Imperial 50's 7x72.jpg (37KB - 404 downloads)
Attachments 37 ANDERSON, LOST IN PARIS 7x72.JPG (69KB - 409 downloads)
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-03-23 12:38 PM (#215395 - in reply to #215370)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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john samsen - 2010-03-24 5:12 AM

Concept cars were destroyed, shipped to other countries, or sometimes left to rust in some lot. A number of these have turned up, and been restored.

Few people thought these things would be worth much. We had no idea there would be fans of these cars collecting them decades later. In 1950, a friend of my father had a Deusenberg model J phaeton, perfectly restored. He said it was worth about $7000. I passed up buying a 1937 Cord supercharged convert in very good condition. A friend of mine picked up a 1913 Model T roadster in good running condition for $55, and sold it a couple years later for $175.



**********************************

I am old enough, and had the *proper* exposure to have witnessed the old attitude of antique collecting, where
"it wasn't an antique unless it was AT LEAST one hundred years old". Everything else was JUNK, or a minor "novelty".
Somewhere in the 60's and 70's this changed and a giant surge of interest for American pop culture arose and largely
supplanted the high falootin' types who now find their "true antiques" at Sotheby's and other similar venues. My
elders were constantly telling me to "get rid of that junk" and to quit dragging it home, and more than once dear old
Dad tossed a raging kinipshun fit (sic?) and hauled a trailer load of cool old rusty stuff to the dump with some stern
warnings to never do it again. I wasn't having any of that !

Call me "clairvoyant", but I had no trouble seeing that by degrees, after the late 50's, it was all down hill as far as
product "substance" and character was concerned. I think most of America picked up on this too, and this is where
the groundswell interest for "collectibles" like old bicycles and Barbi dolls came from. Today, going to an antique mall
can be an outright joke, with booth vendors selling "action figures" still in plastic wrap that were made in China 4 years
ago ! But this is how far this pop culture interest has evolved.

I never could understand my parents', grandparents', and many oldtimer neighbors' attitude of what was junk and what
was good - and still don't ! They were so set in the paradigm of "newest is best" and the lingering practicality of the
Depression that they simply could not get their heads around the idea of cherishing some aging chunk of utilitarianism as
anything special. People who did save old stuff were looked upon as eccentric and socially unacceptable by most folks.

The years have proven my way of thinking to be dead-on. I can still see the look on my father's face when a collector
paid my brother many hundreds of dollars for a box of telephone insulators. You might as well have tagged him with a
red-hot branding iron !

As it relates to these cars, while MY personal tastes say the fin era was the pinnacle of post-war styling, the newest-is-best
axiom held true for another ten years as far as mechanical engineering went and people went on scrapping those "ugly OLD
cars" for the newer and "better" ones until it became clear that the newer ones WEREN'T better and the saving of older cars
as a hobby really took off. This coincided exactly with the antique-world shift to pop culture icons in the late 60's and into the
70's and easily explains why so many 60's cars survived, as opposed to the cars from the 50's - particularly the more flam-
boyant ones like the fin cars.

John, you are a real treasure to have here. Thanks for all your input.
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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-23 3:24 PM (#215408 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Going back up to W.'s FliteWing illustrations, I don't think that I'd ever seen a rear aspect view of the car, before.

(Where) does that car still exist?




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Ex-finlover
Posted 2010-03-23 10:23 PM (#215481 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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With all this design talk - thought you folks would enjoy seeing a 1956 Chrysler interior proposal featuring swivel seats.
This was done by Don Butler - a self-taught designer who first landed a job with Hudson after WWII.
His previous work experience was on the family farm and 11 years cutting fabric in a trouser factory.




(C5199.jpg)



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Attachments C5199.jpg (103KB - 381 downloads)
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StillOutThere
Posted 2010-03-23 10:58 PM (#215495 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Seats, console, center arm rests that is at first glance the 300F 4-bucket with console interior. First evidence of squared-off steering wheel too perhaps? Wow!
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wizard
Posted 2010-03-24 2:33 AM (#215511 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Also, we see the compound bubble window and a special leg/foot rest for the sviwel seats! A fantastic vision, but I guess that the gullwing doors where "cut off" by the economical reasons.
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Chrycoman
Posted 2010-03-24 3:02 AM (#215513 - in reply to #215495)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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John, I would also like to thank you for this fabulous "tour" of the styling studio. It's fascinating to see the designs that were being worked on and what was developed into production models, not to mention the show cars.

I have a copy of the top photo of the styling studio full of the 1962 models. The date on the photo is July 22, 1959, before the word came down to shrink the Plymouth and Dodge.

To identify the cars, in the top photo the coupe is a Plymouth as is the wagon on the left. Not sure what the car behind the wagon is, but the next two along the far side are Dodges. Interesting shape of the front wheel openings.

The second photo has the two Dodges on the left with the front end of an Imperial just poking out. The next one I think is a Chrysler, followed by DeSoto, the rear end of a Chrysler and another Imperial. You can just make out the 'sparrow-strainer' taillamps on top of the rear fenders of the Imperial. The DeSoto rear end was to be like the Chrysler but with three lamps per side, just as the 1956-59 models did.

I have some articles on the Plymouths and DeSotos of the early 1960's with photos of the 1962 Plymouth and DeSoto clay models. The DeSoto appears to be the one in the photo. It seems at this point (July, 1959) DeSoto still had a life after 1960. I will scan these photos and post them.
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-24 9:12 AM (#215525 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Chrycoman,

Your identification of the models is right on! I'm anxious to see the photos you have of the '62's.

The model on the turntable is the Super Sport. I think the big '62 Plymouth and Dodge look much better than the GM and Ford competition. A lot of money was spent on redoing the smaller '62's, and then doing a major facelift a year later, to make them look bigger. A lot of people thought the 62's looked like the '60 Valiants. Big or small, I think the '62 Mopars (or the following years) didn't have the "pizzaz" of the former "Forward Look" cars. However, Chevvy and Ford weren't style setters either!



(62 Plym SuperSport 8x72.jpg)



(1962Plymouth Fr 6x72.jpg)



(1962_Dodge 7x72.jpg)



(62chevy 7x72.jpg)



(62 ford 7x72.jpg)



(1963SportFury 6x72.jpg)



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Attachments 62 Plym SuperSport 8x72.jpg (41KB - 442 downloads)
Attachments 1962Plymouth Fr 6x72.jpg (33KB - 385 downloads)
Attachments 1962_Dodge 7x72.jpg (70KB - 374 downloads)
Attachments 62chevy 7x72.jpg (49KB - 373 downloads)
Attachments 62 ford 7x72.jpg (51KB - 405 downloads)
Attachments 1963SportFury 6x72.jpg (44KB - 385 downloads)
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-24 10:19 AM (#215531 - in reply to #215481)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



"The Original Source"

Posts: 83
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Location: Hilton Head SC
Ex-finlover - 2010-03-23 10:23 PM

With all this design talk - thought you folks would enjoy seeing a 1956 Chrysler interior proposal featuring swivel seats.
This was done by Don Butler - a self-taught designer who first landed a job with Hudson after WWII.
His previous work experience was on the family farm and 11 years cutting fabric in a trouser factory.


I knew Don Butler- a good designer and great guy!

The Diablo also had a squared-off steering wheel...





(1958 diablo int 8x72.jpg)



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Attachments 1958 diablo int 8x72.jpg (70KB - 376 downloads)
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-24 10:33 AM (#215533 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



"The Original Source"

Posts: 83
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Location: Hilton Head SC
Ever think about commercial names, how strange some of them are? Americans didn't want a monarchy, but think of all the products that use such names-
Burger King, Dairy Queen, Imperial cars, Royal Lancers, Mercury Monarch, Crown Victoria, etc. By the way, Valiant came from Exner's favorite comic strip, "Prince Valiant".

Furies were nasty mythical beings- what a strange name for cars! Then what in the world is a "Sport Fury"? Like a Sport Demon, or Sport Vampire!

The Plymouth division execs intended to name our fastback Valiant the "Panda". When we designers hooted at them, they challenged us to come up with a better name. A name from my list was chosen- "Barracuda".

Today, they make up names that don't relate to anything- "Camry", "Prius", "Lexus", etc. Maybe that is better.
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Boris56
Posted 2010-03-24 10:41 AM (#215536 - in reply to #215533)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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john samsen - 2010-03-24 10:33 AM

Ever think about commercial names, how strange some of them are? Americans didn't want a monarchy, but think of all the products that use such names-
Burger King, Dairy Queen, Imperial cars, Royal Lancers, Mercury Monarch, Crown Victoria, etc. By the way, Valiant came from Exner's favorite comic strip, "Prince Valiant".

Furies were nasty mythical beings- what a strange name for cars! Then what in the world is a "Sport Fury"? Like a Sport Demon, or Sport Vampire!

The Plymouth division execs intended to name our fastback Valiant the "Panda". When we designers hooted at them, they challenged us to come up with a better name. A name from my list was chosen- "Barracuda".

Today, they make up names that don't relate to anything- "Camry", "Prius", "Lexus", etc. Maybe that is better.


"Fury" is one of the best-ever car names, in my opinion. It should have been left as the sporty model, though, and not applied to an entire line of cars.
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-03-24 11:36 AM (#215544 - in reply to #215536)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Boris56 - 2010-03-25 7:41 AM

john samsen - 2010-03-24 10:33 AM

Ever think about commercial names, how strange some of them are? Americans didn't want a monarchy, but think of all the products that use such names-
Burger King, Dairy Queen, Imperial cars, Royal Lancers, Mercury Monarch, Crown Victoria, etc. By the way, Valiant came from Exner's favorite comic strip, "Prince Valiant".

Furies were nasty mythical beings- what a strange name for cars! Then what in the world is a "Sport Fury"? Like a Sport Demon, or Sport Vampire!

The Plymouth division execs intended to name our fastback Valiant the "Panda". When we designers hooted at them, they challenged us to come up with a better name. A name from my list was chosen- "Barracuda".

Today, they make up names that don't relate to anything- "Camry", "Prius", "Lexus", etc. Maybe that is better.


"Fury" is one of the best-ever car names, in my opinion. It should have been left as the sporty model, though, and not applied to an entire line of cars.


***********************************

All car companies did that back then. Came up with a good name and idea and slowly turned it to
meaningless parody of what it started out as. The Fury is about the best example though. A brute,
go-fast, special edition car, by 59 you could get it built in any color, on any body from a wagon to a
dump truck! By the 60's, the Fury was like modern movies or video games : Fury XII, Avenger
of God ! (and all on a stripper slant-6 sedan !!!)

Look at what Ford did to the Falcon or Mustang. Within a few years they were bloated dogs, the Mustang
becoming little more than a Pinto.
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ExWagonista
Posted 2010-03-24 12:23 PM (#215549 - in reply to #215525)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up


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The 62 light and trunk deck looks like a 60 Olds from the stern

 

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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-25 5:35 PM (#215755 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

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Couple things, on that Don Butler interior design.

Can't quite read Don's description for that steering wheel ; "Deep Seat (or "Sea"?) steering wheel.

The steering wheel is flattened on its top, only (the Diablo, too); apparently for ease of viewing.

The production 'square' wheels are also flattened on their bottoms, for ease of ingress/egress.

The 1957 Dodge Custom Royal sedans used a derivative of Don's 'stellar' upholstery fabric, which they called "Celestial".

Lotsa rear seat legroom in Don's car.






Edited by d500neil 2010-03-25 5:38 PM
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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-25 6:13 PM (#215760 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

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One major reason why the down-sized 62's look so awkward is due to their squared-off C-pillars, with
those rounded back 'lights' (windows).

Notice how exciting the 62 Super Sport is, with its fastback 60-61 roof style on it.

The downsized verts, with their tops up or down, look intriguing to the eye, but, those fixed-roof versions just look
awkward, to me.

John's vision for the 62 DeSoto had it featuring a very modern, sophisticated and aggressive roof style, not unlike that of the
(bloated-body-) Buick Riviera.

Buick had an interesting advertising slogan for the Riv; "He or She?"---referring to the car as being somewhat androgenous in styling.





Edited by d500neil 2010-03-25 6:15 PM
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arizona mopar gold
Posted 2010-03-25 8:19 PM (#215774 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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I just got John's DVD in the mail...its kool watching!!.......its an honour to know and chat with you John......again, Than you,John
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Ex-finlover
Posted 2010-03-26 8:07 PM (#215934 - in reply to #215755)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Neil - Here's the description Don Butler wrote on that interior concept:

"All seat adjustments except swivel action individually powered by controls on tunnel platform.
Drivers' seat omits foot rest, adds fore & aft control. Other features: heat outlet in tunnel
enclosure; all controls flush; powered door & window controls in side arm rest ledge; drive
control buttons in ledge incline; deep vee steering wheel; turn signal buttons below wheel
rim; vent exhaust fans & 4 courtesy lights in roof; padded door trim & front seat back panels;
automatic-operating front glove drawer with snack tray cover inside; rear glove box with
snack tray cover on tunnel platform; front radio speaker between seats; rear speaker &
individual volume contol in like position."
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Rebels-59
Posted 2010-03-27 6:20 PM (#216026 - in reply to #215934)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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POSTED FOR NEIL D500

Anybody recognize this car?

It was at the B-J in 1995



(132.jpg)



(133.jpg)



(134.jpg)



(135.jpg)



(136.jpg)



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OldiesNut
Posted 2010-03-27 6:47 PM (#216035 - in reply to #213818)
Subject: RE:Exner styling



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1960DesotoAdventurer - 2010-03-14 3:01 PM

John Samsen-[The 1960 Valiant is pure Exner. His design was used on the Karmann/Ghia VW. Most of us designers were against using "toilet seat" dummy spares and Virgil Jr. says he tried to talk Ex out of that cliche' on cars that the two Exners collaborated on, like the reincarnated Stutz, but failed. ]


Thanks for taking the time to answer our questions and give us a greater insight into what was going on in the design dept. during the Forward Look era.
Its incredible to actually be able to talk with someone that was involved with these great cars!

Unfortunately,I have to agree with you and Virgil Exner Jr. the "classic elements" like the toilet seat look out of place and awkward on these futuristic cars. To qoute Will Darnell,I guess Virgil Jr. should have "talked harder".

I have to confess I have never liked the 1960 Valiant and actually think its quite ugly to be honest. It seems mis-shapen and clunky looking,like it was left out on a hot day and melted in the sun
I never understood how that car could have sold when it was up against the beautiful full sized finned Plymouths. I know they were trying to compete with the Falcon and the Comet,but the comet was a much more attractive car.
Besides,you could have the slant 6 in a belveder in 1960 and gotten economy and style,so what was the need for the valiant?

I would be interested to know what you and the other designers thought about the Valiant at the time......am I the only one who thinks its ugly? it didnt even seem to be a Chrylser product the way it looked.

:laugh:


You're not alone '60 D.A.! I was surprised to hear that those nerdy little Valians were "pure Exner." I even did a speech on 1950's automotive styling for my speechmaking class last semester and flipped back and forth between a slide of a '60 Fury and a '60 Valiant to emphasize the tragedy of the compact killing the finned beauty.
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OldiesNut
Posted 2010-03-27 7:13 PM (#216040 - in reply to #216035)
Subject: RE:Exner styling



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Mr . Samsen, If it's not too irritating to have more praise heaped on you, maybe the fact that it's coming from a College kid helps. I never thought I'd get such a personal look into the history of these gorgeous cars from such a reliable source in a million years. The sketches and concept artwork you've shared have been truly stunning, you're stories have held me in rapt attention. Also, as a teenage retro-nut It feels wonderful to hear this stuff from a man who lived it, letting me see through a window back to a more classy, optomistic time. My Parents are too young for it and their parents are too old for it. I realize how corny it is to say that it must have been like "Mad Men" at your office in those days, but you fellas affected automobiles that affected a decade itself.
Now that I've bent your ear in two, I'll shove a question into it:
I've noticed that the fins on the '59 and '60 Plymouths and Dodges seemed to become thinner and less integrated to the rear deck than their predecessors, and by '61 they were gone. Are you aware what prompted shaving 'em off the Plyms and Dodges while letting the Desotos, Chryslers and Imperials keep 'em another year?
Many thanks, Sir.
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Ex-finlover
Posted 2010-03-27 10:00 PM (#216053 - in reply to #216026)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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The red convertible above is a Ghia Assimetrica. It is based on the Valiant platform.
This was a more road-going version of the XNR concept car.
It was originally sold to a Belgian detective novelist Georges Simenon.
Not sure if they made or sold more than one.

http://www.madle.org/exnrasi.htm



Edited by Ex-finlover 2010-03-27 10:02 PM




(1156644895860_Moottoriurheilu_1961_kansi.jpg)



(Georges Simenon.jpg)



(karr60a4fk.jpg)



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Attachments 1156644895860_Moottoriurheilu_1961_kansi.jpg (46KB - 386 downloads)
Attachments Georges Simenon.jpg (93KB - 393 downloads)
Attachments karr60a4fk.jpg (25KB - 537 downloads)
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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-28 3:56 PM (#216111 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

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Now, there's an exclusive car club!

Thanks, Brett; looks like the Blackhawk bought this red car at the B-J, in 1995.




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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-03-28 4:13 PM (#216115 - in reply to #216111)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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This is an Exner creation ????

I have seen better looking kit cars.

Ever notice how the employees at record stores play the weirdest "music" ? When asked
about it, they will tell you they are so tired of "ordinary" and anything to bring in variety is
a good thing. I suspect this is how car designers have to look at it too, especially when
pressure comes down from above to always be coming up with something new.

I wonder if the FL were appreciated as a zenith moment in automotive design at the time,
or they were just another step in the ladder like all that came before or after ? I cannot get
my head around that, but looking at what came after fins, there must have been some
rationalization to it.
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-28 4:22 PM (#216120 - in reply to #216040)
Subject: RE:Exner styling



"The Original Source"

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OldiesNut - 2010-03-27 7:13 PM

Mr . Samsen, If it's not too irritating to have more praise heaped on you, maybe the fact that it's coming from a College kid helps. I never thought I'd get such a personal look into the history of these gorgeous cars from such a reliable source in a million years. The sketches and concept artwork you've shared have been truly stunning, you're stories have held me in rapt attention. Also, as a teenage retro-nut It feels wonderful to hear this stuff from a man who lived it, letting me see through a window back to a more classy, optomistic time. My Parents are too young for it and their parents are too old for it. I realize how corny it is to say that it must have been like "Mad Men" at your office in those days, but you fellas affected automobiles that affected a decade itself.
Now that I've bent your ear in two, I'll shove a question into it:
I've noticed that the fins on the '59 and '60 Plymouths and Dodges seemed to become thinner and less integrated to the rear deck than their predecessors, and by '61 they were gone. Are you aware what prompted shaving 'em off the Plyms and Dodges while letting the Desotos, Chryslers and Imperials keep 'em another year?
Many thanks, Sir.


Glad to hear younger folks appreciate the old cars!

Economics had a lot to do with styling trends. Fins were difficult to make and expensive, compared to "plain-jane" rear ends. By minimising or deleting them the cars could sell for less. Exner told us in 1957 that fins were a passing fad, and we had to come up with interesting ways to do rear ends without them. There was more money for extensive changes to the '61 Plymouth and Dodge and less for facelifts for the bigger cars, so it took longer to get rid of the fins on the Desotos and Chryslers. The '62's were the all-new changes throughout the car lines, and they were getting rid of fins. GM and Ford did likewise. Maybe the "big three" got together and decided to save money by eliminating fins?

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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-28 4:40 PM (#216125 - in reply to #216115)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



"The Original Source"

Posts: 83
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Location: Hilton Head SC
Doctor DeSoto - 2010-03-28 4:13 PM

This is an Exner creation ????

I have seen better looking kit cars.

Ever notice how the employees at record stores play the weirdest "music" ? When asked
about it, they will tell you they are so tired of "ordinary" and anything to bring in variety is
a good thing. I suspect this is how car designers have to look at it too, especially when
pressure comes down from above to always be coming up with something new.

I wonder if the FL were appreciated as a zenith moment in automotive design at the time,
or they were just another step in the ladder like all that came before or after ? I cannot get
my head around that, but looking at what came after fins, there must have been some
rationalization to it.


Once we had to paint 4' by 8' banners and hang them from the studio ceiling- they shouted "NEW!!", "HOT!!", "WILD", etc. This was per a directive from styling management. Pressure was always on us to come up with different concepts. We soon saw that there was a limited number of ways fins could be designed to look different and good. We had a fun time designing the FL cars, but it had to end. The post war optimism was fading as concern over the US-Soviet faceoff developed. Cars had to become more practical. Duh!

So the FL became an unique era in automotive history, and will continue to be cherished as long as people care about cars!

And, the Assymetrica was somebody's takeoff on Exner's design of the "XNR". We designers liked sports and race cars, and thought Ex's workout on the XNR was pretty cool, despite having been built on a Valiant chassis which made it larger than it should have been. Ex was a race car fan, gave Kurtis Craft some designs for their Indy cars.

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-28 4:52 PM




(exner xnr 8x72.jpg)



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Attachments exner xnr 8x72.jpg (73KB - 376 downloads)
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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-28 4:43 PM (#216127 - in reply to #216120)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

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Doc, John explained, up above here, somewhere, that the 60 Valiant (and the XNR and the Assimetrica)
employed a lot of Ex's personal styling preferences, and, we know that a lot of the FWDLK designs were
created by Ex's styling department, but NOT, by Mr. Ex, necessarily/personally---Right, John????




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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-28 5:04 PM (#216130 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



"The Original Source"

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The heads of design for the car companies rarely did any design of the production cars. They picked and chose sketches and large renderings by the designers, and suggested changes in the clay models. Ex went farther than other design execs in doing personal designing, as he had a private studio where he and a couple assistants developed the concept cars. The top execs were responsible for the designs that reached production, and the designs that were chosen naturally had to be accepted by the design execs, and so the designers tried to come up with the type of styling the execs liked. Sometimes a design slipped by the filter of the styling chief. Dodge studio was claying up a design by one of the designers that was liked in the studio. When Elwood Engle saw it, he didn't like it. While he was on vacation, the model was finished, and the Dodge Division people loved it, so Engle had to let it go through. That became the Charger, of the "General Lee" fame. A great seller!
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B/G 61
Posted 2010-03-28 5:54 PM (#216134 - in reply to #212729)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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B/G 61 - 2010-03-06 4:11 PM

I'll dive in like many will with a question about a specific car - the '61 Dodge . . . Is it true the final design was picked out of the trash on a crumpled piece of paper ??? ANYTHING you want to say about the '61 Dodge and its design I'm ALL EARS (eyes )


I know you have been hit with a ton of questions, and I can guess a lot of PM's . . . I thank you for ALL of your responces - I, like most, LOVE to hear what you have to say about any and all things related to the Forward Look era -

I LOVE the '61 Dodges - MOST say it is one of the ugliest cars ever produced - can you shed some light on how this car came to be ???







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Chrycoman
Posted 2010-03-28 6:48 PM (#216140 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Well, after long drawn out grief in trying to get my old photo software to work on my 'new' XP computer (it did work with Vista - it was designed for Windows 98) I acquired Photosho Essentials 6.0. And, now that I can get around in it, sort of ....

Attached are some photos of the 1962 DeSoto from 1959 and early 1960. The first two are from July, 1959, and I believe the convertible is the one shown in the styling room shot earlier in this thread.

The third is from September and shows some changes in trim.

The fourth is from some date. It is from a photocopy I took of a page of a magazine back in 1990. Note the rear quarter treatment - no bird wing.

The last two are from February, 1960, and are supposed to be the sedan design finalized for production. At least until Chrysler realized they did not have the money to tool new bodies for the big models.




(1962 desoto 5907 1.jpg)



(1962 desoto 5907 2.jpg)



(1962 desoto 5909 1.jpg)



(1962 desoto 5912 1.jpg)



(1962 desoto 6002 1.jpg)



(1962 desoto 6002 2.jpg)



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Attachments 1962 desoto 5907 1.jpg (241KB - 425 downloads)
Attachments 1962 desoto 5907 2.jpg (297KB - 399 downloads)
Attachments 1962 desoto 5909 1.jpg (293KB - 373 downloads)
Attachments 1962 desoto 5912 1.jpg (284KB - 397 downloads)
Attachments 1962 desoto 6002 1.jpg (294KB - 380 downloads)
Attachments 1962 desoto 6002 2.jpg (294KB - 374 downloads)
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-03-28 6:56 PM (#216141 - in reply to #216134)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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I always thought the 61 Dodge was an ugly car ... ever since they were new.

In retrospect, I have come to see the design mock-ups and styling trends that "explain"
the odd Dodge elements. Personally, I do not like the direction all Detroit styling took after
1960 as a rule, the heavier roofs, the pointless body contours, but anything looks "less"
when compared to a 57 NY'er ! But the 61 Dodge was certainly an interesting car and quite
good looking in a sedate way when given the right roof, etc. My brother owns a 61 Polara
coupe and it is quite stunning !

I also notice that they look FAR more impressive in person that 99% of photography can
capture. There is a tan Seneca sedan here in town that I toy with buying. It is the ultimate
dullard for one of these, but who can't love those rear wheel cut outs on the Dart ? And with
those extra doors, pillars, a drab paint color and some dog-dishie/blackwalls ? Hard to beat !

It is a shame that Exner did not get to stick around long enough to usher in whatever might
have followed the fins, ... at least long enough to see another definitive style. I HATE Engle's
style preferences. He was a Ford guy, through and through.

61 Dodges are indeed cool, even if a tad bizarre.
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Chrycoman
Posted 2010-03-28 7:19 PM (#216144 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Next is Plymouth - with smaller photos.

The first five are from July, 1959, with the first two showing a model with a front end taken from John's 1957 DeSoto design.

The sixth is apparently a proposal from Exner for the shrunken Plymouth.

And the last two are the almost finalized 1962 Plymouth from July, 1960. Not the location of the fin on the hood and trunk lid, as well as the rear end of the car.

I have but one photo of a mock up of the 1962 Dodge, and that is of the shrunken series taken in February, 1960. Except for some trim differences, it is the same as the production model.




(1962 plymouth 5907 1.jpg)



(1962 plymouth 5907 2.jpg)



(1962 plymouth 5907 3.jpg)



(1962 plymouth 5907 4.jpg)



(1962 plymouth 5907 5.jpg)



(1962 plymouth 5909 1.jpg)



(1962 plymouth 6007 1.jpg)



(1962 plymouth 6007 2.jpg)



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Attachments 1962 plymouth 5907 1.jpg (66KB - 404 downloads)
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Attachments 1962 plymouth 5907 5.jpg (88KB - 388 downloads)
Attachments 1962 plymouth 5909 1.jpg (56KB - 380 downloads)
Attachments 1962 plymouth 6007 1.jpg (110KB - 370 downloads)
Attachments 1962 plymouth 6007 2.jpg (92KB - 370 downloads)
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-28 7:34 PM (#216146 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



"The Original Source"

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Location: Hilton Head SC
I'm glad to see the pictures of the 1962 Desoto and Plymouth proposals! I was working on the '62 Imperial when these were done. We designers couldn't believe Ex was serious about the assymetrical Plymouth rear end! This was one time when he directly designed the rear end.

I did not know much about the '61 Dodge when it was designed. If it was from a wadded up sketch, I think it should have been left in the waste can! Sorry, '61 Dodge fans, but I just don't dig it. Especially the Ford like grille. But not everyone has the same likes; and that makes life interesting! Actually, this roof and rear end, except for the potty seat, aren't too bad!

The 1962 Chrysler lineup shown above, and the small '62 Plymouths and Dodges were the last production cars under Exner's direction. He was trying to give the company the kind of design the top brass thought the public wanted. Instead of being radical and different, the American companies simply wanted to produce the biggest looking cars. That meant stretching them from the front to the rear without interruptions, and wide looking grilles and rear-ends. I think ex's '62 designs were better than GM's or Fords. I and most of the designers were very disappointed when Ex was put out to pasture.

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-28 7:56 PM




(61 dodge 2.jpg)



(61 Dodge.jpg)



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Attachments 61 dodge 2.jpg (127KB - 381 downloads)
Attachments 61 Dodge.jpg (64KB - 385 downloads)
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-28 7:48 PM (#216148 - in reply to #216144)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



"The Original Source"

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Chrycoman - 2010-03-28 7:19 PM

The first five are from July, 1959, with the first two showing a model with a front end taken from John's 1957 DeSoto design.



No, It is not from my design.

That Plymouth wagon above really looks long! It was, but check the stretching of the photo... look at the wheels vertically, and you see ovals!

John



Edited by john samsen 2010-03-28 7:52 PM
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Chrycoman
Posted 2010-03-28 8:11 PM (#216151 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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One thing I have always wondered about was the situation from 1956, after Exner's heart attack, through to 1959 when William Schmidt, originally hired to fill in for Exner while on sick leave, departed Chrysler.

The 1960 and 1961 models, especially, seem to be designed by two different groups - one for the front and one for the rear.

Also, someone said the "S" series designs were done by Exner to put his stamp on the company's designs again.

The first photo in this batch shows a clay for the 1960 DeSoto. The side clearly shows what was to become the DeSoto and Chrysler, but the front does not go with the rest of the car.

The next two show what Chrysler was supposedly working on for 1962 before Exner unveiled his new styling theme.

I am not all that impressed with the grilles Exner's 1962 Chryslers and DeSotos, but the Plymouth, Dodge and Imperial would have done well, IMHO.







(1960 desoto 5902 1.jpg)



(1962 desoto E 5902 1.jpg)



(1962 desoto E 5902 2.jpg)



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Attachments 1960 desoto 5902 1.jpg (89KB - 374 downloads)
Attachments 1962 desoto E 5902 1.jpg (103KB - 368 downloads)
Attachments 1962 desoto E 5902 2.jpg (101KB - 371 downloads)
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-28 10:02 PM (#216163 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



"The Original Source"

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Location: Hilton Head SC
Chrycoman, you keep amazing me with these photos I have not seen before! Where did you get them, if it isn't too personal?

That top photo of a 1960 Desoto buggs me! The split grille theme is one I played with on a number of programs. At that time, we designers seldom went into the separate clay rooms where the full size clays were done. I think I did some sketches of front ends that were similar to that in the picture- but what might have looked good in a slick sketch might look bad in 3-d where the real world restrictions applied. Anyway, I won't take credit for that poor sculpturing job in the photo.

Speaking of '61 Dodges, here is a concept sketch by Pete Loda for the 'big 62 Dodge. Notice the grille- similar to the '61 Dodge? Maybe we now know who to blame for the '61!

Also, a sketch from Dave Cummins playing with the assymetrical motif of Exner's.

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-28 10:08 PM




(Loda Dodge 62 7x72.jpg)



(55 Cummins Assym '59 7x72.jpg)



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Attachments Loda Dodge 62 7x72.jpg (34KB - 380 downloads)
Attachments 55 Cummins Assym '59 7x72.jpg (50KB - 535 downloads)
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Ex-finlover
Posted 2010-03-28 11:09 PM (#216178 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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John - Maybe you can elaborate on the vibe at Chrysler in the late 50's when both Ex and Schmidt were around.
I met with Fred Hudson, Jr. this weekend. He worked in Imperial studio during the development of the 59's thru 61 models.
Fred said many of the designers felt stuck in the middle - with Ex looking around and directing things
in the morning, then disappearing after lunch. Bill Schmidt would arrive in the afternoon and try to undo
everything.

Sounds like too many cooks were in the kitchen - I'm sure the design staff understood one of them would leave soon enough...
But not exactly sure which one.

Edited by Ex-finlover 2010-03-28 11:16 PM
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OldiesNut
Posted 2010-03-29 3:21 PM (#216255 - in reply to #216178)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Mr. Samsen I don't think this one has been asked before:
I've always thought one of the coolest features of a forward look car that distinguished them from their counterparts were the rear view mirrors that were mounted on the dash "standing up" instead of the roof or the upper windshield "hanging down." Are you aware of what inspired that neat trend? What year did it die out?

Chrycoman- Is it just me, or does that 1960 desoto clay model look like a '59 Pontiac? That split grill...

Edited by OldiesNut 2010-03-29 3:26 PM
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alumcanTandThd
Posted 2010-03-29 4:35 PM (#216265 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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1962 plymouth 5907 3.jpg)

I see a almost identical rear wheel cut outs between this and the '91-'93 Caprices, and '91-'96 Caprice/Road Master/Custom Cruiser, wagons. (I don't know how to find a Caprice Wagon picture and post it)
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