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Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up
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57burb
Posted 2010-03-15 10:01 AM (#213931 - in reply to #213920)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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I have a Car Life magazine (or similar) from 1960 that features an artist's concept of the Valiant-based DeSotos of the future. It was actually a sharp looking little car. Possibly even drawn by Mr Samsen considering the timeframe and his involvement at Chrysler. I'll have to dig it out tonight and scan it.
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StillOutThere
Posted 2010-03-15 10:31 AM (#213933 - in reply to #213849)
Subject: Re: Valiant design



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john samsen - 2010-03-14 6:18 PM  SNIP  I also liked the Corvair Monza converts, probably because they were small and innovative. SNIP QUOTE]

Not sure if you were talking early or late or both 'Vair body styles with that comment John, but I'll illustrate it with one I fixed up for my wife to drive.  It was a very pretty car howevere in its individual case, was the 110HP with Powerglide and desperately needed another gear.   It was a fantastic handling car with the minor upgrade of Plus One wheels and tires and an improved rear anti-sway bar and new gas shocks. 





(Chris's65CorvairMonza.jpg)



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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-03-15 11:00 AM (#213937 - in reply to #213933)
Subject: Re: Valiant design



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This later version isn't half bad looking, ... but then again, we were talking intro-era Valiant comparisons.
The early ones look a lot like some East German thing I've seen .... a Tatra ???

I can really see how the original Camero might have grown out of this design .... a lot of similar queues.

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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-15 11:24 AM (#213938 - in reply to #213931)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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57burb - 2010-03-15 10:01 AM

I have a Car Life magazine (or similar) from 1960 that features an artist's concept of the Valiant-based DeSotos of the future. It was actually a sharp looking little car. Possibly even drawn by Mr Samsen considering the timeframe and his involvement at Chrysler. I'll have to dig it out tonight and scan it.


Did you mean this?

One day my manager askedme if I wanted to do a concept for the cover of Car Life. It had to be unlike anything we were doing for Desoto. I knocked it out on a Saturday, and received a nice check from Carlife. No, it wasn't the 1958 Desoto!



(Carlife-8x72.jpg)



(CAR-LIFEmag 4X100.jpg)



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57burb
Posted 2010-03-15 12:02 PM (#213941 - in reply to #213938)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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John-

That isn't the same picture I'm thinking of, but that is awesome!

The one on my mind actually looks like a Valiant/Lancer, except with some DeSoto details. Obviously DeS was quite dead before this little guy had a chance to appear.
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59 explorer
Posted 2010-03-15 12:39 PM (#213943 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up


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I have often wondered about that rendering

If I remember correctly, the sketch on the cover was it. There was nothng in the magazine actually written about the car whatsoever.

Even without a rear view, don't the lines of the car have a marked 1959 Buick look to them?

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StillOutThere
Posted 2010-03-15 7:05 PM (#213996 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Think you will ALL enjoy the timely receipt of a couple of pictures a family friend sent to me that I just scanned.    He found them in an old box, remembers taking them but couldn't identify year or location or the show.   I helped him with the car at least!    It is of course the original Chrysler Dart concept car which we now know was a 1956 Chrysler 300 equivalent chassis though the car bore VIN 9999796  putting it in the engineering specials VIN number range.   Since the car was on the show circuit a brief period of time before being sent back to Ghia for alterations to become the Diablo roadster with cut down fins, we should all relish these photos of the car in its original state with soaring tail fins.   Oh to locate the missing engineering book that has the rest of the 9999 cars details.  

Comments John Samsen?





(scan0004.jpg)



(scan0003.jpg)



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Rob
Posted 2010-03-15 7:50 PM (#214001 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up


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I'll be at Carlisle.

Let me know when and where your presentation will be and I'll make an effort to be there. I have to put parts and the car corral ahead of everything else, as Carlisle is the only place where I can find parts.

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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2010-03-15 7:56 PM (#214005 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up


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Love that Ghia designed front end. The fins are out of this world, Has some Chrysler Thunderbolt shape at the side Tumble home line. Neat how the looped bumper transitions to the thick longitudinal side chrome.

The Chromed looped bumper later re-appeared on the 70 Charger front design 10 years later.

Wish it was still around to look at!
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-15 8:12 PM (#214013 - in reply to #213996)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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More pictures of the Dart... The hardtop was originally retractible.

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-15 8:20 PM




(Dart coupe 8x72.jpg)



(Dart convert 8x72.jpg)



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59finnedwarrior
Posted 2010-03-15 8:41 PM (#214024 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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hi John-I have to jump in line with all the fin guys and extend to you a warm welcome.

This is a lot like having a Super Bowl winning coach on a team forum-you can't get a better source than somebody who was there during that incredible period in Chrysler Corp. history.

Despite the fact that my fin cars are all Dodge and Plymouth models from 56-59 I have to agree with your assessment of the 57 Desoto.

That was truly a high water hall of fame mark for the design and I'm glad that you're on the same page-that almost makes me look smarter...

Thanks again for your incredible insight into the best era of automotive style.
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57burb
Posted 2010-03-15 8:45 PM (#214025 - in reply to #214005)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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1959 Belvedere Conv - 2010-03-15 6:56 PM

Wish it was still around to look at!


The car still exists today as the Chrysler Diablo show car of 1957.

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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-15 8:49 PM (#214026 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: "Dream Cars" video



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You can see a 10-minute trailer of my DVD "We Dreamed the Dream Cars" on YouTube...Click on 480 dpi for better resolution
The DVD is now on sale for $19.95 instead of $25.00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMBRuI7BvME&feature=channel



Edited by john samsen 2010-03-16 12:47 PM




(DVD cover 10x72.jpg)



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57burb
Posted 2010-03-15 9:21 PM (#214038 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Here are the scans of the article about the 'upcoming' compact DeSoto, taken from the June 1960 Motor Trend.

I've broken it out into four images, but they are all from a single page.

I can't help but shake my head at the name of the DeSoto car...



(smalldodge1.jpg)



(smalldodge2.jpg)



(smalldesoto1.jpg)



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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-15 11:08 PM (#214063 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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This concept is news to me! I worked in the Valiant/Lancer studio in 1959-1960 as assistant manager, when it became Valiant/Dart studio. Never saw this concept.
I suspect some writer was overworking his imagination. I don't think the fins would work on the retro-style of the Valiant!

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-15 11:10 PM
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-03-16 12:04 AM (#214080 - in reply to #214024)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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59finnedwarrior - 2010-03-16 5:41 PM

hi John-I have to jump in line with all the fin guys and extend to you a warm welcome.

This is a lot like having a Super Bowl winning coach on a team forum-you can't get a better source than somebody who was there during that incredible period in Chrysler Corp. history.

Despite the fact that my fin cars are all Dodge and Plymouth models from 56-59 I have to agree with your assessment of the 57 Desoto.

That was truly a high water hall of fame mark for the design and I'm glad that you're on the same page-that almost makes me look smarter...

Thanks again for your incredible insight into the best era of automotive style.


******************************************

Perfectly said. I too think the 57 DeSoto ranks "top shelf" of all FL designs. I ultimately went for a 58
for the finer hood/fender trim, broken ovals in the grille and exhaust ports, and the wedge engine. Still,
that 57 sidetrim still yanks at me pretty hard !

John, what can you tell us about how the side trim and other trim differences between 57 and 58 were
developed, and your personal thoughts on them ? Were interior fabrics developed in the design studio ?

B.
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Billy-Jack Ebare
Posted 2010-03-16 12:51 AM (#214089 - in reply to #213516)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Just wanted to thank you, Mr. Samsen for your kind words about my car and overall insight into the 1960 Desoto design evolution. It makes me proud to know that you have graced our group with your knowledge, and to be in your company Sir is certainly an honor. Thank you. I have a few last questions to ask. What is your color of choice on a Forward Look Chrysler Corporation Car? What was your overall opinion of the "electro-luminiscent" dash that was installed in the 1960-62 Chrysler cars? Rumor has it that Virgil Exner put his neck on the line for these, is there any truth to that? Lastly, what did you hear (if anything at all) about Chrysler's early interest/design of the electronic fuel injection system (1958)? I know a few of these made their way into the Desoto line.
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1960DesotoAdventurer
Posted 2010-03-16 1:43 AM (#214097 - in reply to #213996)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Thanks for posting those fantastic Dart concept car photos!
Of all the concepts thats my favorite,such a sleek windswept design,I love how the roof retracts into the rear,and those fins!

Edited by 1960DesotoAdventurer 2010-03-16 1:44 AM
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roadkillontheweb
Posted 2010-03-16 7:30 AM (#214117 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Remember, they did make a small car Desoto.
Just not here in the states. South Africa got the dart based Diplomat for 62-63
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-16 8:08 AM (#214121 - in reply to #214089)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Billy-Jack Ebare - 2010-03-16 12:51 AM

Just wanted to thank you, Mr. Samsen for your kind words about my car and overall insight into the 1960 Desoto design evolution. It makes me proud to know that you have graced our group with your knowledge, and to be in your company Sir is certainly an honor. Thank you. I have a few last questions to ask. What is your color of choice on a Forward Look Chrysler Corporation Car? What was your overall opinion of the "electro-luminiscent" dash that was installed in the 1960-62 Chrysler cars? Rumor has it that Virgil Exner put his neck on the line for these, is there any truth to that? Lastly, what did you hear (if anything at all) about Chrysler's early interest/design of the electronic fuel injection system (1958)? I know a few of these made their way into the Desoto line.


I enjoyed choosing different colors on my cars, and its hard to say what my favorite is. I probably have had more black ones, but some cars do not look as good in black as others- to me. It has to do with the kind of shapes, reflections, etc. I also like silver, gun-metal, white, and red. I think that '60 Desoto looks great in red, and black is perfect fot C-300's. I remember a red '60 Valiant that looked good. Also looked good in black. White didn't do much for that car. A lot of people didn't like the small 1962 Plymouth, but I had a black convert with red interior, and thought it looked sharp. I do not like yellow on cars, or the fruity colors on the E-body cars of 1970.

We in styling didn't know all the mechanical things engineering was developing unless they affected the body shapes. I designed an experimental car for engineering at Ford in 1954 that tested fuel injection. We had hoped to get it on the first T-Birds, so I put a low hood on that car. Injection wasn't ready then, so I had to but the big blister on over the air cleaner. I tried to get them to make a hole in the hood and let the carb stick through with a fancy air cleaner, but everyone thought that was a dumb idea. The "shaker hood" had to wait for about a decade.

I liked the Electro-luminescent instruments, and didn't hear anything about Ex in regard to that idea.
I showed a shaker hood on this concept for the Ford experimental car; it was not necessary when fuel injection was used.





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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-16 8:24 AM (#214126 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Wild fins...



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How do you guys like the Alfa Bats? One day I drove to Bill Mitchell's (GM styling) house, and he had one of these Bats in his drive. Must be nice!
Wonder where the '63 Corvette Stingray got its divided backlite? These came out in 1953-1955, before the FL 1957's were designed.

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-16 8:35 AM




(alfa_bats 8x72.jpg)



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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-16 9:01 AM (#214130 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Evolution of Forward Look?



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This clay model photo is marked 1951. It may be the beginning of Exner's approach to fins. It was a modification of his "Thomas Specials", of which 16 were built in Italy. Virgil Exner Jr. says he suggested the more squarish fender forms while his dad was designing the "Special".

I never saw Exner's proposals for the '57 lineup, but I think the lower photo may have renderings in the background that were his proposals for '57 cars. I was told his proposals were similar to his Ghia concept cars. He may have been combining fins with the more sculptural shapes of his Ghia cars. I think the studios' designs, while maybe not as good from an artistic standpoint, were more exciting, and probably more what the public wanted.

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-16 9:32 AM




(Ex CLAYMODEL_1951 8x72.JPG)



('52 CHRYSLER SPECIAL 8x72.JPG)



(Ex, with clay 8x72 .jpg)



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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-16 9:15 AM (#214131 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: FW evolution



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Here is a 1954 rendering by Don Kopka. It shows the kind of design the Desoto studio was doing at the beginning of the 1957 Desoto program.



(Kopka desoto 54 8x72.jpg)



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StillOutThere
Posted 2010-03-16 12:24 PM (#214160 - in reply to #214121)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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john samsen - 2010-03-16 7:08 AM  SNIP  A lot of people didn't like the small 1962 Plymouth, but I had a black convert with red interior, and thought it looked sharp. SNIP

For reference, a car I owned about 15 years ago in California, a '62 Fury convertible that was factory black with a red interior.   (Wheels are not original)





(62PlymFuryCvA.jpg)



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Boris56
Posted 2010-03-16 2:56 PM (#214171 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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I've always seen similarities between the proportions and general shapes of the '62 Plymouth and the '65 Ford Mustang.
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roadkillontheweb
Posted 2010-03-16 6:15 PM (#214203 - in reply to #214131)
Subject: Re: FW evolution



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john samsen - 2010-03-16 8:15 AM

Here is a 1954 rendering by Don Kopka. It shows the kind of design the Desoto studio was doing at the beginning of the 1957 Desoto program.


Does that say Starflite on the rear quarter panel? Or do I need to clean my glasses?
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-16 6:47 PM (#214208 - in reply to #214203)
Subject: Re: FW evolution



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roadkillontheweb - 2010-03-16 6:15 PM

john samsen - 2010-03-16 8:15 AM

Here is a 1954 rendering by Don Kopka. It shows the kind of design the Desoto studio was doing at the beginning of the 1957 Desoto program.


Does that say Starflite on the rear quarter panel? Or do I need to clean my glasses?


Yes, it says "Starflite". The licence plate says "OK-1957". So it was a concept for the '57 Desoto. Don was one of my friends in the Desoto studio. He must have done this rendering around the time I did the one that is my avatar.

How about that speedo form going thru the windshield! The cost guys would never allow that.

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-16 6:53 PM
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-16 6:56 PM (#214210 - in reply to #214001)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Rob - 2010-03-15 7:50 PM

I'll be at Carlisle.

Let me know when and where your presentation will be and I'll make an effort to be there. I have to put parts and the car corral ahead of everything else, as Carlisle is the only place where I can find parts.



I'll be doing a seminar on Friday and on Saturday. I don't know yet which building and at what times. It should be printed in the program.




(JRS Turbine.jpg)



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wizard
Posted 2010-03-17 4:06 AM (#214307 - in reply to #214208)
Subject: Re: FW evolution



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john samsen - 2010-03-17 12:47 AM

roadkillontheweb - 2010-03-16 6:15 PM

john samsen - 2010-03-16 8:15 AM

Here is a 1954 rendering by Don Kopka. It shows the kind of design the Desoto studio was doing at the beginning of the 1957 Desoto program.


Does that say Starflite on the rear quarter panel? Or do I need to clean my glasses?


Yes, it says "Starflite". The licence plate says "OK-1957". So it was a concept for the '57 Desoto. Don was one of my friends in the Desoto studio. He must have done this rendering around the time I did the one that is my avatar.

How about that speedo form going thru the windshield! The cost guys would never allow that.


The Speedometer form is really a fantastic design idea John! I can imagine that the cost of realizing it would have been steep, but ohh sooo kool.

Edited by wizard 2010-03-17 4:07 AM
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ExWagonista
Posted 2010-03-17 8:35 AM (#214313 - in reply to #214121)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up


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Boy I have been taking this thread in by the spoonful thank you for joining and sharing your time and stories. As a kid growing up in the 60s all I wanted to do was design cars at Chrysler. Seeing for the first time some of the unseen designs of the Exner era is a huge treat. Your avatar 55 Desoto design in stunning..if only. Anyway time to put it up on the front porch for all of us to enjoy!

 

If Only!



Edited by ExWagonista 2010-03-17 8:37 AM
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-03-17 10:54 AM (#214328 - in reply to #214313)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Having had to work over the fenders and radiator support on FL cars for many, many years, I only wish engineering was
up to speed on making the cars sit as low as this rendering suggests ! The 60's were a lot easier to work over than the 57-
58 cars, and anyone familiar with the 55-56's knows the everpresent back-of-head gouge, er, I mean hood latch location !!!

I always loved the rear wheel opening shape employed on the smaller 60-61 cars, and I can see from this work up where
they came from. Never thought of it at the front, but it looks good ! I guess Plymouth did something similar, but more as a
body contour that an open well. With the lowered fender line, this really looks sleek. Nice work !
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firedome
Posted 2010-03-17 8:40 PM (#214431 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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These insights and reflections on the life and times of our favorite cars have been a true revelation, Mr Samsen. Many thanks for sharing this important history and for your own work.
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57burb
Posted 2010-03-17 8:56 PM (#214435 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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This scan is a little on the large side, so I'm leaving it as a link. But I thought it gives nice insight (and praise) to the then-current '57 DeSoto design that we're all so enamored with, then and now.

This scan is from the March 1957 Motor Trend.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a274/46Tbird/57des-1.jpg
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B/G 61
Posted 2010-03-17 9:57 PM (#214447 - in reply to #214130)
Subject: Re: Evolution of Forward Look?



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john samsen - 2010-03-16 9:01 AM

This clay model photo is marked 1951. It may be the beginning of Exner's approach to fins. It was a modification of his "Thomas Specials", of which 16 were built in Italy. Virgil Exner Jr. says he suggested the more squarish fender forms while his dad was designing the "Special".



That car looks like it inspired someone at Chrysler in the 90's . . . The Atlantic looks like its twin . . .












(Ex_CLAYMODEL_1951_8x72.JPG)



(atlantic.jpg)



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ExWagonista
Posted 2010-03-18 2:37 PM (#214533 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up


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Okay..I have to follow up to my previous post. I would love to know Mr Samsen if you did additional sketches of the 55 Desoto concept. I would really enjoy understanding the front/rear design concept for the car. Thanks!!
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-18 5:07 PM (#214541 - in reply to #214533)
Subject: Re: '55 Desoto concept



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None of my sketches for this concept rendering have survived. This concept was not modeled.
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-18 5:11 PM (#214542 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Chrysler Atlantic



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I really like the Atlantic concept. Saw it at Carlisle the summer before last. Now that's a great retro rendition and beautifully sculpted. I wouldn't kick it out of my garage!
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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2010-03-19 12:43 PM (#214682 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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John, what is your vision/opinion on the switch to dual headlights in '57?
I can imagine this was a 'modern' thing back then and designers would be thrilled to change the face of a car with a different headlight-configuration.
Personally, on the '57 Chryslers, I tend to like the single headlight-model much more than the duals. Perhaps it's the shape of the rounded fenders orsomething, I'm not sure.

Can you explain why the cars were always pictured with a 'lower' stance in the brochures then they were in real life?
I would think this would made them look sleeker ofcourse, but was it really only that reason?

Open rearfenders;
You mentioned you would've liked to see more open fenders on the cars and some more of their wheels.
Personally (in hindsight ofcourse) I'm glad this hasn't been done really. Although I like the models, I don't like the open rearfenders on '54-57 Buicks for instance. It just shouts out "Hey have you seen my wheels?" to much IMO, and takes away the focus on the model of the car itself.


With the years of design-experience you have, I wonder how you would (re)design or render a '57-60 Chrysler product, today, as if it weren't brought out yet.
Suppose it's 1954/55 again and Chrysler would ask you to design the '57 models... Would you do anything different in your current design than that you did 55 years ago?

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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-19 5:34 PM (#214742 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



"The Original Source"

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Big Block...

The quad headlamps used five inch lamps vs the seven inchers on the single lamps. This gave the designers the ability to put them in lower fenders, or lower grilles. The keywords of the day were "longer, lower, wider" and we had to stretch the front and rear ends as wide as possible, and make the cars look as low as possible. The illustrations in the brochures were stretched longer and made to look lower and wider.

Wheels have always been important parts of cars, and to hide them, as Nash did to the extreme, implies that the wheels are unimportant.

When I was designing during the 1950's, I wanted cars to be more aerodynamic. The companies couldn't care less, and wanted hoods over the headlamps, visors over the windshields, and huge grilles, all of which added much drag. If I had my way then, and now, I would make them more aerodynamic. They could still have fins.

Since you opened the door by asking about how I would design the 57 Desoto, here is a non-forward look experimental car (D-523 Cougar) I designed in 1954, just before coming to Chrysler. I wanted small fins on it, but my boss, Gil Spear, had me do the tail lamps his way. I had the front fenders sleeker, but VP engineering Mac Pherson (of the famous struts) made me take off a foot of front overhang. His personal taste.

Yes, I hid part of the wheels! I was going along with the trends of the day. If you could imagine this car with larger wheel openings, more front overhang, and big '57 Desoto-like fins, that's what I would have wanted.

When I did the big backlite on the 1964 Barracuda, I was thinking about this car.

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-19 5:48 PM




(D-523 front 3-4 8x72.jpg)



(D-523 rear 3-4 8x72.jpg)



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Attachments D-523 front 3-4 8x72.jpg (39KB - 373 downloads)
Attachments D-523 rear 3-4 8x72.jpg (34KB - 372 downloads)
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Centurion
Posted 2010-03-19 6:48 PM (#214751 - in reply to #213920)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up


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What a fantastic topic this is!

One of the earlier posters mentioned the 1959 Buick. When I saw the drawing of the rear bumper design proposal for the 1960 DeSoto, I was reminded instantly of its similarity to this April, 1957 rear bumper proposal (full-size fiberglass model) for the 1959 Buick. It's fascinating how some similar themes were being considered by multiple designers during this time period.

1959 Buick fiberglass, April, 1957

 





(57-60 DS rear green 5X72.jpg)



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Attachments 57-60 DS rear green 5X72.jpg (26KB - 537 downloads)
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d500neil
Posted 2010-03-19 8:14 PM (#214770 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

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John, do you know how many times the dart was repainted; at least twice, huh?

The Falcon was painted in three colors, which had led people to think that perhaps more than one example had been built.

The Adventurer 1 is my favorite dream car. It was painted at least twice and maybe three times.

Ex reportedly drove it for a while, personally.

I heard a rumor that it ended up in South America, but Jr. has reportedly said that it was crushed.

Can't understand why it would have been singled out for destruction; just doesn't make sense.

Did you hear/know that the XNR was long ago sent to the Middle East and that it ended up in Kuwait, but that it was last seen
being driven toward Baghdad at the end of a certain 1991 war (and, that it might not have survived that last road trip?).
To my knowledge, its present whereabouts remain unknown.

I've got a presentation transcript at home, from a speech that Ex made to the SAE, around 1953 (it's at home) but, in it, he
comparatively examined English, French, German and Italian automobile styling, and he greatly
appreciated the Italian School of design.

Not a WORD is mentioned therein about any affinity that he may have had, regarding the concept of tail fins or jet-plane styling,
as it might apply to automobile designs.












Edited by d500neil 2010-03-19 8:24 PM
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-20 8:20 AM (#214823 - in reply to #214770)
Subject: Re: Exner's dream cars



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Many of the Exner dream cars were reportedly crushed, but actually were sent to big shots outside the USA. The company did not want to pay the taxes if the cars were to be licenced in the USA.

The Falcon was painted silver, coppertone, and black.

The Adventurer was originally cream, but Ex painted it silver, and drove it.

The "Gilda", an aerodynamic experimental car designed by Italian designer Savonuzzi. The Gilda was a 2-seat, with a humongous rear deck! Really "cornball" in my opinion. The Dart was a cooperative venture between Exner and Savonuzzi which was found to be very aerodynamic. Savonuzzi later came to Chrysler, where he worked on engineering design.

This picture is Ex driving the Falcon at an SCCA meet. Not a bad job when you get to design cars as you like them, then get to drive them!

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-20 9:02 AM




(Falcon racing 6x72.jpg)



(xgilda 8x72.jpg)



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Attachments Falcon racing 6x72.jpg (30KB - 484 downloads)
Attachments xgilda 8x72.jpg (73KB - 379 downloads)
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-20 9:04 AM (#214827 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Dart evolution



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The Dart went back to Ghia, where a conventional convertible top was installed, and the fins cut down. It was then called "Diablo". Note the stylized pitchfork on the inside door panel. What the devil gave them the idea for this name?

The government's rules limited what we could design for passenger cars. The headlamps on the Dart and Diablo were below the required height above ground, and if this design were changed to meet the rues, the front end would not have looked nearly this good. Another reason why many concept cars could not be licenced for the road in the USA, so they had to be crushed, or sneaked out of the country.

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-20 9:20 AM




(1958-chrysler-diablo 7x72.jpg)



(1958 diablo int 8x72.jpg)



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Attachments 1958-chrysler-diablo 7x72.jpg (31KB - 435 downloads)
Attachments 1958 diablo int 8x72.jpg (70KB - 428 downloads)
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55CRL
Posted 2010-03-20 12:50 PM (#214881 - in reply to #214742)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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john samsen - 2010-03-19 11:34 PM

Since you opened the door by asking about how I would design the 57 Desoto, here is a non-forward look experimental car (D-523 Cougar) I designed in 1954, just before coming to Chrysler. I wanted small fins on it, but my boss, Gil Spear, had me do the tail lamps his way. I had the front fenders sleeker, but VP engineering Mac Pherson (of the famous struts) made me take off a foot of front overhang. His personal taste.

Yes, I hid part of the wheels! I was going along with the trends of the day. If you could imagine this car with larger wheel openings, more front overhang, and big '57 Desoto-like fins, that's what I would have wanted.

When I did the big backlite on the 1964 Barracuda, I was thinking about this car.


John, it seems your taillight design on the D-523 Cougar ended up on the 1962 Merc Monterey.

Writing about the Barracuda, I really like what you did putting the backlite on the Valiant Signet creating an amazing new car with a lot of nice features. As an owner of the original car I'm interested to know if you where involved in the design of the 63-64 Valiants as well. Who came up with the front fender design with the hairpin crest, it looks like half of the Forward Look sign and was used on the'61 Plymouth front end. On your sketch of the Barracuda it seems completely gone.



(1962 Monterey.jpg)



(64Valiant.jpg)



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Attachments 1962 Monterey.jpg (110KB - 555 downloads)
Attachments 64Valiant.jpg (63KB - 565 downloads)
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roadkillontheweb
Posted 2010-03-20 1:22 PM (#214888 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: RE: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Hey John
would you mind if we take this thread on a little side track?

I am a collector of Mopar vintage jewelry that was used by dealerships and by the factory. I would be interested to see if you have any unique pieces hiding in your jewelry box?

Here are some of my more unique pieces with inset colored stones more than likely made for women in a male dominated enviroment.

I also have a very good variety of Forward look items even including one from the Redstone missle program.

Here is the jewelry page of my website that is in desperate need of an update with better photos.
http://www.roadkillontheweb.com/jewelry.html
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-20 1:52 PM (#214892 - in reply to #214881)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



"The Original Source"

Posts: 83
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Location: Hilton Head SC
55CRL - 2010-03-20 12:50 PM


When I did the big backlite on the 1964 Barracuda, I was thinking about this car.


John, it seems your taillight design on the D-523 Cougar ended up on the 1962 Merc Monterey.

Writing about the Barracuda, I really like what you did putting the backlite on the Valiant Signet creating an amazing new car with a lot of nice features. As an owner of the original car I'm interested to know if you where involved in the design of the 63-64 Valiants as well. Who came up with the front fender design with the hairpin crest, it looks like half of the Forward Look sign and was used on the'61 Plymouth front end. On your sketch of the Barracuda it seems completely gone.

First, The Cougar lail lamp was a Gil Spear design- he asked me to put it on the Cougar.

I think it was 1961 when I was placed inthe Valiant/Dart studio. The new 1963 Valiant body had been designed, and I do not know how what we called the "hairpin" was designed. For the 1964 model, we got new front fenders, and the "hairpin" was modified- I think by Dave Cummins. I didn't do much design on the Valiants- a couple tail lamps and chrome side moldings on the '64's. I designed the grille for the 1964 Dart, and the rear quarters for the Dart Hardtop. On the '64 Barracuda, I did the roof, backlite, rear deck. Irv Ritchie had the original idea for doing the fastback on the Valiant. I had a silver Formula S. The formula S package was thought up by someone in Plymouth Sales. Good idea!
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john samsen
Posted 2010-03-20 2:00 PM (#214894 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



"The Original Source"

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Location: Hilton Head SC
Roadkill,

I like your collection! I have a collection of Mopar ornamentation and jewelery. and am thinking of how I can sell it all. Maybe on the Allpar site. I have some original hand made prototypes of the Barracuda fish, gold and black "round eagle"s from the '61 Imperial, etc. I do have a pair of gold plated forward look ear rings, probably like yours, which I received at a dealer presentation, and I've been wearing a Valiant lapel pin which has the triangular Valiant logo on top of a vertical "rocket" shape. I also have Road runner ear rings and Pentastar lapel pins. Unused production ornamentation like '61 Imperial nameplates, LeBaron plate, Sport Fury (don't know what year) nameplates. etc. I have no idea what this stuff would be worth.

Edited by john samsen 2010-03-20 2:04 PM
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2010-03-20 4:29 PM (#214922 - in reply to #214894)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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Some of this old "side track" stuff is really cool. I wear a tie pin when the situation demands a tie that reads "Ask the man who owns one".
Not many would know what that means today.
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roadkillontheweb
Posted 2010-03-20 7:07 PM (#214944 - in reply to #214894)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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john samsen - 2010-03-20 1:00 PM

Roadkill,

I like your collection! I have a collection of Mopar ornamentation and jewelery. and am thinking of how I can sell it all. Maybe on the Allpar site. I have some original hand made prototypes of the Barracuda fish, gold and black "round eagle"s from the '61 Imperial, etc. I do have a pair of gold plated forward look ear rings, probably like yours, which I received at a dealer presentation, and I've been wearing a Valiant lapel pin which has the triangular Valiant logo on top of a vertical "rocket" shape. I also have Road runner ear rings and Pentastar lapel pins. Unused production ornamentation like '61 Imperial nameplates, LeBaron plate, Sport Fury (don't know what year) nameplates. etc. I have no idea what this stuff would be worth.


The only real way to get true market value would be to put the stuff on Ebay and let the high bidder take it home.
I am sure the group around here can help identify the unknown production ornamentation but as for the prototype stuff the sky could be the limit to the right collector. If you do not have a Ebay account We might be able to work out a sales on commission deal

My earrings are clip on and your should be also. They made a lot of different forward look items, I also have a number of driveaway items from 1959 the most unique being the paper apron from the BBQ. Did you attend the 1959 Desoto Drive away?
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SalesGuy
Posted 2010-03-22 2:12 AM (#215180 - in reply to #212346)
Subject: Re: Mopar Styling info, 2010 Carlisle heads-up



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The '61 Imperial stuff is worth nothing.

I'll take it off your hands for free.

( By the way, thanks everyone for this thread, it's goooold ).
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