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Location: Connecticut | My only concern is for misrepresentation when a car is put up for sale. If someone claims that a 58 Plymouth is all original, and therefore expects a premium price, yet the interior is incorrect, there's a hemi under the hood and it's painted purple, I feel it's in the interest of anyone considering the purchase of this car to know that certain parts of the car are not original. Most of us regulars on the board would know this. But a newbie to forward lookers may believe the hype and end up being 'taken'. That's not to say that someone may look at that car and think 'I gotta buy that'. But at least they'll be going into it with their eyes wide open. As far as people's Pride and Joys, I mostly steer clear of commenting other than to say 'I like it', if in fact I do.
Ron
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| ronbo97 - 2010-03-16 7:36 PM
My only concern is for misrepresentation when a car is put up for sale. If someone claims that a 58 Plymouth is all original, and therefore expects a premium price, yet the interior is incorrect, there's a hemi under the hood and it's painted purple, I feel it's in the interest of anyone considering the purchase of this car to know that certain parts of the car are not original. Most of us regulars on the board would know this. But a newbie to forward lookers may believe the hype and end up being 'taken'. That's not to say that someone may look at that car and think 'I gotta buy that'. But at least they'll be going into it with their eyes wide open. As far as people's Pride and Joys, I mostly steer clear of commenting other than to say 'I like it', if in fact I do.
Ron
I agree with that. I went to look at the advertisement but not much is said. I have seen many other car ads saying stuff like All original and you see mistakes. It could be the seller just dosent know much about cars.... or is just saying all original to spice up the car ad. Thats when our knowledge of cars kicks in and we can easily tell that a Hemi dosent belong under the hood of a 58 Plymouth Silver Special. As a newbie believing what they see that is a problem. They could believe anything they see. Theres a difference of pointing things out versus saying your car looks bad with different interior, wheels...ect.... I have a so called friend that does that to peoples faces at car shows. Not professional, no tact there. Most people dont like negative comments about their car. I guess if you dont have anything nice to say then dont comment. But I dont think there is anything wrong with pointing things out in an informative way. 
Edited by 59CRL 2010-03-16 7:46 PM
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Location: Connecticut | Greg, Glad we're on the same page with that. Ron 
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Location: Big pimpin' | Ron, I genuinely believe your heart is in the right place, but you have to understand..This is why the phrase was coined.."Buyer beware"....If a newbie is looking at spending "Top dollar", wouldn't you think they'd be asking questions like "Hey Neil/Ron/whoever, IS this car "All original"?......When the "Craig's list" ad's and the E-Bay ads are posted here, It isn't for the newbie's to look at dropping huge cash on without asking any questions first, it's so the car can be "Evaluated" and then we have what we have here...IF in fact, the "Critiquing" was left until the "Buyers" ASKED for it, then it wouldn't be an issue at all......Talking about a HEMI as the wrong engine on an "All original" car is one thing, but to tell them that it isn't worth the asking price cause it has the incorrect fuel lines, or the incorrect overspray is just plain picking the car apart...Hell, there was one recently that was incorrect and went for what? Over $100K?
Edited by dukeboy 2010-03-16 8:22 PM
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Location: Connecticut | dukeboy - 2010-03-16 8:17 PM If a newbie is looking at spending "Top dollar", wouldn't you think they'd be asking questions like "Hey Neil/Ron/whoever, IS this car "All original"? Actually, I think a newbie with limited knowledge would be afraid to post here, mostly because he doesn't want to look foolish. I'm certain that for every person posting here, there are twenty that are just lurking, having read the board for years but never posted. It's true, Buyer Beware. But I'm sure folks would like as much knowledge as possible before dropping serious cash. Some of the critiques run to the trivial, but as I said before, if that bothers folks, then they must be really thin skinned. Anyone reading this board has the right to read, not read or ignore anything or anyone that they want. Ron
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Location: Parts Unknown | Speaking strictly for myself, having all factions of motorhead input gives me the best opportunity to learn things.
Even as someone who has been doing FL cars for 30 years, I have still learned a quite a bit from posters on this site.
I will say it again, it would be a real shame to lose this input. To this end, I would suggest that those being critical
of cars, giving advice, or "going purist" use a little self-review on when it might not be appropriate to do so and act
accordingly in an effort to not come off as an unsolicited preacher and inflame one side of this argument. On the flip
side, I would appeal to the others to just ignore those you disagree with and move on.
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Location: Williams California | I can learn a lot by listening to those on either side of the fence, none of my cars are 'bone stock' but I do plan on doing a nut and bolt restoration in the future.
---John |
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Posts: 500
Location: Upper East Tennessee | big m - 2010-03-17 1:14 PM
I can learn a lot by listening to those on either side of the fence, none of my cars are 'bone stock' but I do plan on doing a nut and bolt restoration in the future.
---John
I second this thought!
I appreciate all inputs. If it weren't for the devil's advocates we might not know how things came from the factory...and what to improve on! We now have the advantage of hind sight. Even Neil endorses recent technologies like powdercoating. Thanks to ALL here because I would be a complete idiot about these cars without you.  |
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Posts: 636
| I like hearing what everyone has to say. And I do pay attention to Neil's remarks, because he knows a lot about how my particular cars were built. And if I ever get an Imperial that needs a new 392 I will thank Dukeboy for saving me lots of time and money (a lot of money) with the 440.
Remember that we are creating an archive in real time, that will outlive all of us many times over. 100 years from now someone will be very thankful for a piece of obscure information from someone long gone who was alive when these cars were on the road. All the personal rancor will not count for much then, other than to confirm that we all got along . . . most of the time.
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Location: On this barrel | I've got one of them cars with no rust from the factory ... sitting right here in my ... no mods to speak of .
But you all got my whateever all bunched up ..... But then again I'm from Idaho .... THAHS RIGHT IDAHO ... NOTHING rusts around here ( stored indoors)(nothing) OK ? Original paint. not rust , ... |
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Location: On this barrel | .. |
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Location: San Diego, CA | With all of this discussion, I keep going back to an earlier point….this board is a reference for the future. This board and the information shared within will, hopefully, outlive all of us. There will come a time when there will be no one who remembers these cars when they were new. First hand knowledge of how things were done at the factory will be gone. The idea that someone should withhold information until they are specifically asked to give it seems shortsighted. One day, that person will not be around to ask. I liken it to a family member who tells their stories about “the war”. Yeah, I heard those stories a few times, but you know what? I no longer have the chance to ask about those stories now. That connection is gone.
Information on this board needs to be free flowing. It should not be “question asked, answer given” only. Does a comment on over spray need to be mentioned 10 times? I don’t know, but I suspect some of those comments will be in reference to a ’57 and some about a ’59, or about some other variation. Also, those comments should not be limited to one section of the board as that is just limiting information. Information should be shared as it comes to mind. To propose limits to that only serves to limit information for those who come after us.
In the end, I dare say that returning to as original/OEM as possible is what the future has in store for many of our cars. There was a time when cutting and flaring the wheel wells and adding another pair of tail lights was considered nothing for a mid-year Corvette. How many of those are trying to be returned to stock now? We are even seeing an increasing desire to not restore a car that is a presentable “original”. Stock is always the baseline by which modifications are measured. Otherwise, how do we know what is modified?
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Location: The Mile High City | Posterity? Harumph! One day, a large solar flare will release a cone of magnetic energy right over Pennsylvania and this whole website will be completely and irrevocably erased. Pop! - As if it never even existed! Who knows, it could happen next week.
My only interest is to find out the exact positions of each point on each lug nut on each wheel as the car rolled off the assembly line before the pop happens. 
This may be the mother of all hijacked threads! And on my favorite type of car too! Pshaw. It has become more civil though. I'll tell Neil to come back. |
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Location: Pau, S-W France | d500neil - 2010-03-09 9:43 PM
Phil: ALSO ask him to check up-behind the glove box; he may just be in for a PLEASANT surprise....
Sorry to re-open this subject but yesterday i met my friend at his home. I slide my hand behind the glove box but i found only a small part of the sheet ....
I take some pics of the data plate:
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Location: The Mile High City | A charcoal body with silver fins and trunk. That is an unusual color combination - I think I prefer the light blue that the car is painted now. For my own personal preference, I think a silver body with the charcoal fins and deck would be more appealing than the reverse.
Neil, I think this is the only color combination for which the reverse is listed in the Ross Roy book under the Deluxe paint scheme. Not that that book is fully accurate. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Just to put a 'period' at the end of this sentence: the red/silver painted convertible, according to the P/t plate info
on it, was painted....drumroll......
......all black, and it is a real single-4 D500 convertible.
As it was not OEM undercoated, it apparently was badly corroded, and received a 'complete' floorpan replacement, but
the renovator did not install OEM floor pan material to it, which is a shame.
It is a highly optioned car, and, I believe, Max will arrange to re-restore it, properly.
Phil, of all the 4-corners of a Broadcast Sheet to find, that right-lower one is the MOST valuable, as that corner
of the Broadcast Sheet is the only area, of any document (including the P/T plate, B.-Sheet and/or IBM card copy)
which confirms how the dash board was to be painted.
In your friend's car's instance, this corner of the B-Sheet confirms that the entire dashboard was to be painted all-black;
not 2-toned.
And, you can see where it has a padded dash; altho the padded dash status is also confirmed on the IBM card.
Edited by d500neil 2010-04-09 8:34 PM
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Location: Sept. 1958 | This 58 Dodge is going to be auctioned on Sept 24, 2016, along with 57 Flite and 58 Dome convertibles.
https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/dodge/d500/187362... |
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Location: The Mile High City | Nice, Matt! It looks like Max divested in some of his Forward Lookers!
Boy, that De Soto has come a looooooooooooooong way since 2004 when Bill K. pulled it out of a junkyard in New York!
http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=2774&posts=28&highlight=new york desoto conv black&highlightmode=1#M203682
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Location: The Mile High City | A picture of the Dodge too - not much has changed in the last six years with this one.
I hope they put a set of those repro deflectors on it! 
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Location: Sept. 1958 | Yeah what a transformation on the Desoto, where did you get the photo Mike? The website I went to only had the one that I saw and it was different than that one. I may go to this auction.
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Location: Sept. 1958 | That Dodge is a stunner of a car! |
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Location: The Mile High City | both are gorgeous!
Matt, I went to your link and then followed another link to the "the Boston Cup Auction"
http://www.dragoneauctions.com/ From there, I clicked inventory and it had a few images of each car. I had to crop and reduce the images to post them on this site though. |
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Location: The Mile High City | I was surprised to see these for sale. The last time I talked to Max, he had plans to put these on private display in Austria. I thought they had made there way there for sure! |
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Location: The Mile High City | That '57 Fireflite convertible in the auction must be the dusty one....
http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=60964&posts=10&highlight=57 desoto conv&highlightmode=1#M505802 lookin' good now! Matt, this would be a fun auction to see in person! |
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Location: Sept. 1958 | Yeah it would be awesome to see them in the flesh. I missed seeing the black and copper CR convertible, remember the Regal tribute one at auction in 2014. The 57 Flite at auction is the one he had restored, remember it was that peach color custom one that was for sale back in 2010, not the one in that link. He did have a thread on it, titled "homework done..." |
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Location: The Mile High City | ...ah! I do remember Ms. Peach! As soon as I saw the current pictures, I though of Mr. Dusty in L.A.
I guess Mr. Dusty now has a twinsie.
I hope you are able to go, Matt - so many great cars in this one! I remember the copper and black tribute. Hernando's Hideaway car.
It was cool, but I am more impressed with this stable.
Edited by Lancer Mike 2016-09-14 5:50 PM
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Location: The Mile High City | A couple more nifty '58s at that Boston Cup this weekend:
http://bringatrailer.com/listing/1958-dodge-custom-royal-lancer-d-500-convertible/ http://bringatrailer.com/listing/1958-dodge-suburban-spectator-9-passenger-wagon/
Edited by Lancer Mike 2016-09-21 2:59 PM
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Location: Sept. 1958 | Wow Mike!!! Never seen that convertible before. I've booked a room at the Revere for Friday, I'm only gonna stay one night. Would like to be around for the Concours Sunday though, darn. |
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Location: The Mile High City | Yeah, pretty spectacular! I have never seen either either The Suburban has been a bit more customized than the convertible, but they are awesome individually and truly magnificent together.
The convertible is one heavily-optioned car and the Suburban has factory air conditioning as its one outstanding option. They were both all white cars, but I can't remember seeing images in any dressing.
We have Greg Leggatt to take issue with on these two - he's been holding out on us!
Matt, I hope you (of all people!) get a chance to see these even if you are leaving on Saturday - you would think these cars would be there early!
I am totally jealous not to be going to this one!!! 
Edited by Lancer Mike 2016-09-21 3:00 PM
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Location: Fleetwood, Pa | I'm guessing the SS fin extensions may have been added to the convertible during it's restoration.....I'm not seeing any other SS trim?? Personally, I don't really care for them, but that's just my opinion....
Edited by sidesho_bob1961 2016-09-21 3:04 PM
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Location: Sept. 1958 | Mike, these cars will be on display for inspection Friday and Saturday morning before the auction, so I'll have plenty of time to look at the Dodge and the Desotos, even though sometimes you just don't get enough time. I plan on driving up very early Friday morning and leave sometime in the afternoon on Saturday.
Bob, yes this convertible was built in early November 1957, at that time no Spring trim was available or even created. The Paris Rose paint was also a Spring addition (Dodge didn't offer a Paris Rose matching interior), though they probably should have. |
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Location: The Mile High City | As far as the fin caps go, I think they are better when they are matched with the wide license plate escutcheon. I think the reverse is true as well.
As I was going through the images of the one-of-none "Suburban Spectator" I kept hoping it would have customized in the external spare tire compartment! Regardless, it is really cool.
Edited by Lancer Mike 2016-09-21 5:06 PM
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Location: Sept. 1958 | I went to the auction preview yesterday and also this morning for a bit, left before the auction though so I don't have the results. But here are some photos of the cars. Max had 23 cars in this auction, will have the remaining 23 next Spring at auction.
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Location: Ontario, Canada | Lancer Mike - 2016-09-21 2:55 PM
Yeah, pretty spectacular! I have never seen either either The Suburban has been a bit more customized than the convertible, but they are awesome individually and truly magnificent together.
The convertible is one heavily-optioned car and the Suburban has factory air conditioning as its one outstanding option. They were both all white cars, but I can't remember seeing images in any dressing.
We have Greg Leggatt to take issue with on these two - he's been holding out on us!
Matt, I hope you (of all people! ) get a chance to see these even if you are leaving on Saturday - you would think these cars would be there early!
I am totally jealous not to be going to this one!!! :jealous:
What do you mean, "holding out" ?
Greg |
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Location: Ontario, Canada | BTW, Mike, I sent you a copy of the rubbing of that cars body plate in Aug 2015. I asked what you thought about a 6 in the 20th space!! You didn't have an opinion.
I gave my interpretation of that body plate to Jay Robinson. He also told me he had a Suburban. I also gave my interpretation of a body plate rubbing for a 57 CRL coupe D500.
Small world, huh?
Greg
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| Really neat looking cars. Curious what they went for. |
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Location: The Mile High City | LD3 Greg - 2016-09-24 9:10 PM
BTW, Mike, I sent you a copy of the rubbing of that cars body plate in Aug 2015. I asked what you thought about a 6 in the 20th space!! You didn't have an opinion.
Guilty as charged! I guess my memory is the only one holding out on us!!!
So did you conclude the number 6 in the 20th space was a "sold car", customer waiting? |
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Location: The Mile High City | Matt, did you get images of the other CRL convertible, the Suburban, and the '58 Firedome convertible? Did you see Max? I wonder why he is selling everything? |
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Location: Sept. 1958 | Lancer Mike - 2016-09-27 11:15 AM
Matt, did you get images of the other CRL convertible, the Suburban, and the '58 Firedome convertible? Did you see Max? I wonder why he is selling everything?
No, this auction was kind of strange in a sense the cars were on display in the sixth floor of a parking garage in Boston. I'm not sure where the Suburban and other CRL convertible were at, from the sound of it there was a show somewhere in Boston (not in city?) with these cars at on Sunday. I got one photo of the Firedome. Not sure why he is selling, may have just gotten out of them? |
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Location: Sept. 1958 | I thought the 20th spot was for what kind of glass was in car? |
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Location: Upplands Väsby, Sweden | Lancer Mike - 2016-09-27 11:15 AM
Matt, did you get images of the other CRL convertible, the Suburban, and the '58 Firedome convertible? Did you see Max? I wonder why he is selling everything?
We met Max in Vienna in 2011. The mighty nice young guy. As liked businesses such as investment. He saw these Forward Look cars as investments. He liked them too. But most investments, we got that impression. (Could be wrong ..)
He also had other interests than just cars. Interest may have changed over the years.
http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=35528&...
Edited by Windsor59 2016-09-27 2:58 PM
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Location: Sept. 1958 | BTW, no Mike, I don't believe Max was there. |
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Location: Ontario, Canada | christine-lover - 2016-09-27 12:25 PM
I thought the 20th spot was for what kind of glass was in car?
Yes, it is. But I have never seen a 6 there before. I gave Jay (who I thought was the owner at that time) specific glass things to look for and report back to me. I didn't hear back!
Greg |
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Location: Lubbock, TX | I just got off the phone with Alex Dragone, the broker for the cars; The 1958 D500 Convertible was bid to $95k and did not sell. They're asking price is $110k. Of the forward look cars there, the only ones to change hands were the 300C Convert at $100K and the 300G 3spd Coupe at $110K. |
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Location: The Mile High City | The Paris Rose and Black CRL D500 was bid to $102,500 on BaT, but did not meet reserve.
http://bringatrailer.com/listing/1958-dodge-custom-royal-lancer-d-500-convertible/ The Suburban "Spectator" apparently sold on BaT for $31,750 http://bringatrailer.com/listing/1958-dodge-suburban-spectator-9-passenger-wagon/
Edited by Lancer Mike 2016-09-29 6:03 PM
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Location: Sept. 1958 | The two Paris Rose cars are from the same seller as this car:
http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=61177&... |
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Location: The Mile High City | I wonder if that owner and Max are seeing a bubble about to pop?
The wagon seems to be pretty well-bought: 1) you can't even find the car; and b) the sale price is less than the restoration cost.
However, you look at Ferraris - they often stretch up to $3,000,000 and beyond. At some point, there has to be an overall cap for a car - I don't care how rare and sexy it is.
Edited by Lancer Mike 2016-09-30 1:45 PM
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1958 Dodge Custom Royal Convertible in SUMMERLAND , BR
