The Forward Look Network | ||
| ||
My method of updating obsolete brakes/rear axle Jump to page : 1 Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
Forward Look Technical Discussions -> Brakes, Wheels and Tires | Message format |
Resurrector |
| ||
I figured it might be useful to some to post my method of converting to modern brakes, and rear axle all in one shot. There may be better ways to do it, but this works for me. It's not for those who wish to keep their cars original. Unlike any other kit I've seen, it uses all Chrysler parts, from the same car, engineered to work together. In my experience, finding axle seals/bearings/drums/shoes/wheel cylinders/etc is getting increasingly difficult and expensive for the Forward Look cars, at least up here in Canada. And after all that significant expense and work, you still have inferior drum brakes, that need a heavy puller to access in the rear. This is my time, money, frustration-saving solution. I find a 82-89 "M" body Chrysler product (Dodge Diplomat, Plymouth Caravelle, Chrysler 5th Avenue) -see example pic below- And I use the rear axle, front caliper mounting brackets, brake booster, master cylinder, rotors, calipers, and proportioning valve. I have also used the complete powertrain, radiator/fan/shroud, fuse box and more from them in FL cars! I pay between 100-500 bucks for a typically running, driving car. Or you can go to a junkyard and get these parts but I've found it cheaper to simply buy the whole car. There may well be other models/years that use the same parts, but I know these work, provided the later years don't have ABS or anything else funky. These cars are worth basically scrap value these days, they are plentiful and parts are readily available and generally cheap to buy. The rear axle is roughly a 1/4 inch narrower than the FL cars' axle, and they are built like typical late model GM axles, no goofy tapered axle, bolt on flange w/spacer BS. The spring perches are in different locations, so I cut the perches off the old rear axle and weld them on the correct place. Then it bolts in. This also has the added advantage of now having a park brake setup if you need it, so if you are running a modern parkbrake-less transmission, you are good to go. In the front, I unbolt the backing plate from the spindle and tap on two spacers I get a local machinist to make. The spindles are very similar except the inner bearing and dust seal are of larger inner diameter, hence the bushings. The outer bearing is the same bearing from the '50's to the '80's. I made up a 1/4" thick steel bracket that uses two of the four backing plate holes (see pic), and the caliper bracket bolts to it (the caliper bracket needs a slight grinding in two places, maybe an 1/8th inch removed, for clearance to the spindle) and with the aid of 4 washers, the caliper is now mounted perfectly with the rotor. As far as hardware, it requires, per side, two 9/16 bolts, 4 9/16" lock washers, and a drilled out 7/16" nut as a spacer...you even reuse two backing plate mounting bolts and nuts. I then modify the plate behind the old master cylinder to accept the newer brake booster/master cyl, and build a new pushrod accordingly, taking care to make the leverage correct. (I will measure exactly the distances from a completed car of mine if desired, and post that) On my current project, I intend on even using the brake pedal arm/mounting bracket from the donor, if I can, getting a modern brakelight switch at the same time. I will modify the arm to accept original wide pedal on however, so it appears correct. Of course I don't include every little detail here, just the basics. There's lots of simple things like mounting the proportioning valve, running new brake line, welding/bolting on the front rubber hose bracket to the new location, et cetera. If anyone expresses more interest, I'll walk through it in more detail. The advantages of this are many - The ENTIRE brake system is engineered by Chrysler to work together, on a car of similar weight/proportions/build...none of this mixing brands BS...the parts are easy to find, well built, and simple. The original 14" wheels fit as well, except now you don't need the locating stud holes in your rim. With a little luck, you might get a parts car that has decent brake parts already, making this even more cost-effective I'm going to take a sample caliper bracket to a lasercutter this week and see if it's a reasonable cost to punch out a few sets for my future FL projects, if anyone is interested I can get more made up and the bearing/seal bushings too. I have invested many hours of engineering and fabrication into them, and I figure I may as well share it. I don't wish to make a profit, just to contribute to the FL cause and hopefully save people the seemingly endless frustration of getting the original drum brakes to work, (I've been there) and/or to make these aftermarket kits work. Amazingly there's a website dedicated to these butt-ugly cars http://www.angelfire.com/ca/mikesspot/frames.html Edited by 58dodgeregent 2010-11-24 12:02 AM (IMG_0025.JPG) (IMG_0028.JPG) (IMG_0026.JPG) (IMG_0029.JPG) (IMG_0027.JPG) (5th.jpg) Attachments ---------------- IMG_0025.JPG (93KB - 291 downloads) IMG_0028.JPG (92KB - 290 downloads) IMG_0026.JPG (83KB - 308 downloads) IMG_0029.JPG (65KB - 287 downloads) IMG_0027.JPG (75KB - 298 downloads) 5th.jpg (20KB - 283 downloads) | |||
BigBlockMopar |
| ||
Expert Posts: 3575 Location: Netherlands | While it's good to use parts from a newer car to improve on the old setup, I DO have my concerns on how you mounted the plate to the spindle. Those 2 smaller long bolts alone have to take all of the brakingforce now, and not near the spindle and clamped between the backingplate, but at their very ends. It doesn't look that sturdy to me to be honest and I think there will be plenty of side-movement possible with the brakes in operation. Perhaps so much that the bolts might work themselves loose. I think you will wear down the other brakepads faster than the inners. But I do applaud you for removing another of them ugly Mopars from the streets though... I myself have bolted a plate to the front of the caliper, and welded thick spacers to the rear of it where the 2 caliper-bracket bolts screw into. The only issue with my solution is that you have to use the big 11.75" rotors otherwise there's no room inside the rotor for the adapterplate. Edited by BigBlockMopar 2010-11-24 4:43 AM | ||
Shep |
| ||
Expert Posts: 3393 Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Pretty cool but I would have used grade 8 bolts not grade 5. | ||
uncltank |
| ||
Extreme Veteran Posts: 380 Location: Kennewick Wa | What about the late 70's Volare/ Aspen discs? I was told that this is a bolt on using the complete spindle. Has anyone heard of this one? I haven't seen anything posted about these. Has anyone tried it? | ||
sparky7 |
| ||
Elite Veteran Posts: 636 | Dodge Diplomat, Plymouth Caravelle (Fury) and Chrysler 5th Avenue, are just later versions of the Aspen/Volare. Sparky | ||
hemidenis |
| ||
Expert Posts: 3887 Location: Northen Virginia | Great job guys!, keep us posted of how it works | ||
dukeboy |
| ||
Expert 5K+ Posts: 6203 Location: Big pimpin' | uncltank - 2010-11-24 11:38 AM What about the late 70's Volare/ Aspen discs? I was told that this is a bolt on using the complete spindle. Has anyone heard of this one? I haven't seen anything posted about these. Has anyone tried it? Sure it will "Bolt on", as long as you don't mind grinding the hell out of your tie rod ends, steering stops, and figuring out why the front end won't come in alignment afterwards....But, it does "bolt on".... Edited by dukeboy 2010-11-25 9:34 AM | ||
60 Plymouth |
| ||
Elite Veteran Posts: 1060 Location: Building incorrect cars since 2000!! | dukeboy - 2010-11-25 8:30 AM uncltank - 2010-11-24 11:38 AM What about the late 70's Volare/ Aspen discs? I was told that this is a bolt on using the complete spindle. Has anyone heard of this one? I haven't seen anything posted about these. Has anyone tried it? Sure it will "Bolt on", as long as you don't mind grinding the hell out of your tie rod ends, steeering stops, and figuring out why the front end won't come in alignment afterwards....But, it does "bolt on".... | ||
58sportsuburban |
| ||
Extreme Veteran Posts: 449 Location: jersey | I'll be updating mine with parts from a Mirada | ||
Handygun |
| ||
Elite Veteran Posts: 1117 Location: STL, MO | And in 20yrs the Crossed Torsion Bar Society website will be MF'in all of you | ||
Resurrector |
| ||
BigBlockMopar, I appreciate your criticism, and posting your design. However I need to point out some things, in the first pic the lower bolt mount is far too skimpy, I created a new bracket after that one that has more meat there...and as far as not being strong enough: #1 I have put over 9000 miles so far on this set up, including city driving, and it is performing perfectly with no cracks/breaks as of yet. In the highly unlikely event it ever did fail, you still have rear/park brakes. One thing you probably don't realize is the cast iron caliper bracket is literally resting against the spindle, making it 100% immovable. #2 To my understanding of the system, If the groove that the caliper rides back and forth in is maintained as it should be and not rusted up, there is no reason for side flex. Is your system not built from the same gauge of steel? BTW, in my experience, 99% of disc brake systems wear the inside pad more. #3 If a person is still concerned about strength, make the bracket out of thicker steel...my first draft was 1/2" thick plate, which I later deemed overkill, (of course I'm not an engineer, just common sense). The beauty of this is, thicker steel in no way affects the alignment of the system, you just need longer bolts. AND: If you STILL aren't satisfied? Drill and tap threads into the cast iron caliper mount, through the upper righthand spindle hole presently unused, screw in a grade 8 bolt. (Shep, duely noted-grade 8 can't hurt) | |||
BigBlockMopar |
| ||
Expert Posts: 3575 Location: Netherlands | I thought I noticed that the caliperbracket was (purpously?) touching the spindle, in effect helping to take the stress of the bolts a bit. But I don't feel the bracket was designed to do that. 'if' there was any flex in the system, in an (extreme) worst case scenario the spindle could be weakened at that spot. I've used a 10mm thick plate for the adapter to bolt to. (I had designed this plate for my '64 Chrysler, but later used it on my '60 NY, hence the extra holes because of the difference in spindles) I think 8mm plate will still be strong enough to resist flexing and perpendicular movement of the bracket. Your design is definitly easier to fabricate without any welding needed. | ||
finsruskw |
| ||
Expert Posts: 2289 Location: Eastern Iowa | I doubt if those pieces are cast iron, they are more likely forged. Dave S. | ||
Resurrector |
| ||
I ended up getting plates built out of 3/8" thick, "T1" steel, which is a higher strength than regular mild steel, for barely any difference in cost. The metalman said this stuff will be stronger than 1/2" mild steel, so I figure that's a good comprimise, and not so bulky. If I ever need more brackets, all I have to do is tell the metal shop what part # I want cut, and they will do it. The bracket now has a part # assigned to it, so it's always be in their plasma-cutting system...pretty cool! My next step will be hopefully designing a "standardized" method and bracketry for bolting on the brake booster/master cylinder, so it's easily repeatable for my other cars and anyone else's. | |||
ColoradoFiredome |
| ||
Veteran Posts: 111 Location: Aurora, Co | 58dodgeregent - 2010-12-05 10:38 PM I ended up getting plates built out of 3/8" thick, "T1" steel, which is a higher strength than regular mild steel, for barely any difference in cost. The metalman said this stuff will be stronger than 1/2" mild steel, so I figure that's a good comprimise, and not so bulky. If I ever need more brackets, all I have to do is tell the metal shop what part # I want cut, and they will do it. The bracket now has a part # assigned to it, so it's always be in their plasma-cutting system...pretty cool! My next step will be hopefully designing a "standardized" method and bracketry for bolting on the brake booster/master cylinder, so it's easily repeatable for my other cars and anyone else's. Jeff -- I have a 56 Firedome with "Iffy Brakes" at best. I love you design. I'm interested in whatever you develop in this area. Will the Plate & Seal/Bearing Adapters be available anytime soon? I'd also like to see Pics of the Booster/Master Cylinder mount. As well as any other Details involved. RE: the Rear Axle Swap. This would solve my No Park Brake on the 727 Blues. What Gear Ratios were typical for these Butt-Ugly Donor Cars? Would they likely be compatible with a 727 Trans. The Firedome came with a 3.73 to 1 Rear Axle Ratio. I'm not on the road yet but I've been assured the 727 would be happy with that Axle Ratio. I have a friend who runs a Crusher Operation. I'll warn him to be looking for 82 ~ 85 M Bodies. RT> Edited by ColoradoFiredome 2011-02-25 5:55 PM | ||
Resurrector |
| ||
I'll get a pic on here of the booster set up. The typical rear axle ratio for those cars is 2.94, although a couple of them I bought have 2.26!!! In my opinion, if you don't want to race at stoplights and just want a nice cruiser, a 2.26 behind a non-OD trans and a V8 with decent power is a swell setup...Chrysler used it, after all, in those similar-weight M bodies behind a fairly gutless (guessing 190-something HP?) smog 2 bbl LA 318, and they hold their own just fine. That ratio behind any original V8 will be even better, and also quiet! Plus your engine will last forever because it isn't revving much! The 3.73 is way too low a gear, in my opinion, unless you want to take off like a jet but be screaming on the highway. | |||
miquelonbrad |
| ||
Expert Posts: 1737 Location: Hay Lakes, Alberta, Canada | Jeff- a question. How do the rims fit afterwards? Are the bolt patterns the same? I ask, because I will probably keep my rear axle original, but I may upgrade the front brakes to disc, and I want to make sure the rims can be all the same afterwards... | ||
Resurrector |
| ||
The rims fit exactly the same, same bolt pattern. I should add to this, this converserion is for 1957 up forward looks ONLY! | |||
mikes2nd |
| ||
Expert 5K+ Posts: 5006 | which rear axle is stronger the square or the round cover?
looks like you want only the round cover and it has sure grip(posi?) http://www.angelfire.com/ca/mikesspot/rear.html
Edited by mikes2nd 2017-07-04 10:19 AM | ||
58coupe |
| ||
Expert Posts: 1739 Location: Alaska | The 7 1/4 is too light for a FL car IMHO. Even the 8 1/4 is a little light. It was used in a number of Mopar vehicles including the Dakota pickup but I have seen many of these needing rebuild. Mopar switched to the 9 1/4 rear in the V-8 Dakota pickups in the late 90s. | ||
mikes2nd |
| ||
Expert 5K+ Posts: 5006 | 8 1/4 is fine unless your racing every weekend. I've heard of guys going 11's on 8 1/4 the c bodies have 8 3/4 that fit also but a bit harder to find. | ||
mikes2nd |
| ||
Expert 5K+ Posts: 5006 | hah now I am seeing ford explorer 8.8s fit for 150$ i get it all, and posi Edited by mikes2nd 2017-07-04 11:59 PM | ||
58coupe |
| ||
Expert Posts: 1739 Location: Alaska | A couple of problems with the 8 1/4, the axle bearings are a straight roller and ride directly on the axle, lose a bearing and damage the axle. The axles are only held in by C-clips, I have seen a number of these with bad pinion bearings not sure why. Call me a purist by I prefer all mopar parts in my cars, not ferd parts. | ||
mikes2nd |
| ||
Expert 5K+ Posts: 5006 | Is jeep okay? I am hunting a bit more. I want a modern axle that comes with disc brakes, I want posi also. I don't care about the make of an axle, and I found out I might need a mustang v8 8.8. The explorer 8.8 has 2 inch offset. | ||
Powerflite |
| ||
Expert 5K+ Posts: 9604 Location: So. Cal | Everyone puts 8.8 rears in everything. They aren't bad, but I don't like them. Why? Because what do you do when you want to change gear ratios? Spend $600-$800 to get them changed? No thanks. For that reason, I would never swap anything into my cars except 8 3/4, Ford 9" or Ford 8". Unless you know exactly what gear you want to run with and never want to change it, I would go with one of these. I typically end up swapping gears around 2-3 times in my car's life for various reasons ( want sure grip, don't want sure grip because of rain or snow, high highway gear, low gear performance, mid range gear for overdrive, or bad gear issues etc....) With the 8 3/4, swapping in a new set of gears costs me nothing because I already have a couple of sets in the garage and takes only an hour to do. Your 8.8 (or 8 1/4 for that matter) would be pure pain to deal with in comparison. | ||
mikes2nd |
| ||
Expert 5K+ Posts: 5006 | 8.8 is pretty cheap and easy to swap in, ford mustang rear gears are everywhere... | ||
58coupe |
| ||
Expert Posts: 1739 Location: Alaska | I picked up a complete 8 3/4 with limited slip (the older rebuildable clutch type) from a 65 Chrysler for $200. It is much easier to work on these removable third members on the bench than under the car and they have Bendix brakes that are easy to buy parts for and work fine. It is also pretty much a bolt in for a FL car. | ||
mikes2nd |
| ||
Expert 5K+ Posts: 5006 | what years? the 65 shows it isn't long enough. | ||
57chizler |
| ||
Expert Posts: 3768 Location: NorCal | The '65-'69 C-body is the perfect fit for the '57-'61 FL cars. They are 3/4" wider overall but that doesn't usually present a problem unless you run wheels with a large offset. | ||
Powerflite |
| ||
Expert 5K+ Posts: 9604 Location: So. Cal | Here is a chart that I made up on all the 8 3/4 axles that may help you. (8_3-4Axles.jpg) Attachments ---------------- 8_3-4Axles.jpg (140KB - 219 downloads) | ||
Jump to page : 1 Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page] |
Search this forum Printer friendly version E-mail a link to this thread |
(Delete all cookies set by this site) | |