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A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty
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jboymechanic
Posted 2013-03-26 1:48 PM (#366432)
Subject: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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I recently acquired a 1954 Dodge truck (I know, not quite Forward Look, but it is essentially the same as 1955 which is in the FL era) with a good running 230 flathead 6. It is a 3/4 ton so it has the large bolt pattern and 4.78 gears in the rear. Although it is currently not road worthy, it could safely cruise all day at about 40 mph tops. That sucks. So, I've already found a Ford 8.8 rear end out of a mid 1990s Ranger, it is a 3.73 limited slip. This helps my top end, but the addition of an over drive would be perfect. I happen to have an overdrive A-833 from a late 1970s Aspen, what do I need to adapt this trans to my 230 flatty? The trans currently in the truck is the factory 3 speed with fluid drive (clutch and torque converter mounted together) so it has an extra deep bell housing. Or would it be cheaper & easier to go the T-5 route?

I have searched here and read about '59 bell housings or newer truck and van housings, but it still seems unclear to me. I'm looking for the cheapest, easiest possible setup.
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jboymechanic
Posted 2013-03-28 10:02 AM (#366757 - in reply to #366432)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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Also, my friend has a 270 Dodge truck Hemi, I could put the A-833 behind that. Any help with either situation?
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dukeboy
Posted 2013-03-28 12:17 PM (#366774 - in reply to #366757)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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Jboymechanic, I'd think it would be easier to convert that Hemi (Hot Heads for adpater??)to overdrive than that 230 6. Due mainly to the Bellhousing pattern being so different.
Adapters can get expensive too.

Of course, the EASIEST route, would be a 318 LA motor and swap out ALL that old stuff and be done with it.



Edited by dukeboy 2013-03-28 12:19 PM
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davewilkes
Posted 2013-03-28 12:20 PM (#366776 - in reply to #366432)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty


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Call Wilcap or Hothemiheads and get an adapter for the 270. I don't know of any adapters to fit the 6 cyl. You may be able to simply re-drill a normal bell housing for a 6 cyl to take the 833 but your input shaft may end up being a little bit long (it can be cut) The fluid drive bell housing I know nothing about. It may be converted as well. I'm in the other direction trying to fit an old trans from a 6 to a V8. I will tell you though. If you are going for the 270, bolt it all together on the ground first and if it all lines up, then install it. There are some very knowledgable people on this board that are expert in your situation.
Dave
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wayfarer
Posted 2013-03-28 12:40 PM (#366782 - in reply to #366776)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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davewilkes - 2013-03-28 9:20 AM

Call Wilcap or Hothemiheads and get an adapter for the 270. I don't know of any adapters to fit the 6 cyl. You may be able to simply re-drill a normal bell housing for a 6 cyl to take the 833 but your input shaft may end up being a little bit long (it can be cut) The fluid drive bell housing I know nothing about. It may be converted as well. I'm in the other direction trying to fit an old trans from a 6 to a V8. I will tell you though. If you are going for the 270, bolt it all together on the ground first and if it all lines up, then install it. There are some very knowledgable people on this board that are expert in your situation.
Dave



...at least one of makes an adapter for the flathead six.......well covered on my web site.

The OP should also be directed to the PilotHouse section over at www.p15-d24.com

Edited by wayfarer 2013-03-28 12:42 PM
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davewilkes
Posted 2013-03-28 12:50 PM (#366784 - in reply to #366782)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty


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wayfarer - 2013-03-28 10:40 AM



...at least one of makes an adapter for the flathead six.......well covered on my web site.

The OP should also be directed to the PilotHouse section over at www.p15-d24.com




My apologies, I hadn't heard of one before. But as I explained someone would know.
Dave
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jboymechanic
Posted 2013-04-04 1:22 PM (#368016 - in reply to #366432)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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Well, the A-833 is gonna go behind the 270 Hemi. I'm currently working on designing an adapter plate between the trans and the Hemi bell. I happen to have access to a laser cutting table at work, I plan on using it to make my adapter. If I get it to work I will share my drawings when it's done.
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jboymechanic
Posted 2013-04-19 7:37 PM (#370771 - in reply to #368016)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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Here is the conversion so far. Bell housing had to have two bolt head reliefs machined in it and also had to have the bearing retainer opening enlarged to 5.125 inches. Still need to arrange the pilot bushing and the release bearing.

 photo IMG_0968_zpsd8de0679.jpg

 photo IMG_0970_zps2ce1c4ac.jpg

 photo IMG_0972_zps0b74d9b3.jpg

 photo IMG_0971_zpsd7e1bbf6.jpg


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wayfarer
Posted 2013-04-22 11:09 AM (#371192 - in reply to #366432)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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Looks good.
What do you have for spline to disc engagement?
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jboymechanic
Posted 2013-04-22 9:43 PM (#371344 - in reply to #366432)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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I'm using a stock 11" clutch from a 1980s Dodge truck. I re-drilled the fly wheel to accept the 6 on 12&5/8 bolt pattern as the factory clutch was 8 on 12&5/8. The factory clutch disc is 23 teeth, just like the A-833 that I'm using. I just ordered a factory original release bearing from vintagepowerwagons.com, should be here in a few days. The pilot bushing presses into the end of the crank, I don't know what OD I need yet but I do know the ID will be 0.750".
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wayfarer
Posted 2013-04-24 11:15 AM (#371632 - in reply to #366432)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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...let me ask in a slightly different manner...with the parts assembled, do you have 100% input shaft spline to disc spline engagement? Just curious.
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oldwood
Posted 2013-04-26 9:44 PM (#372177 - in reply to #371632)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty


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Interesting, Very Interesting!!! Inquiring minds want to know the end of this story.
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jboymechanic
Posted 2013-04-26 11:10 PM (#372185 - in reply to #366432)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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The factory release bearing sleeve ID is larger than the 80s sleeve, so I will machine a bushing and press it into stock release bearing sleeve. I just got motor out of the barn at my buddies place and into my garage so I hope to have a chance to mount it together soon and check my clutch disc to trans input shaft spline engagement. The pilot bushing in the end of the crank of the 270 Hemi is the exact same one that came in my 80s Dodge clutch kit so that is already done!
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oldwood
Posted 2013-04-26 11:18 PM (#372187 - in reply to #372185)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty


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How about the flat head. Do you think you can adapt A-833 to it?
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jboymechanic
Posted 2013-04-28 10:33 PM (#372513 - in reply to #372187)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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I mocked everything up today, was kind of a pain. The bell housing has to be installed and then the flywheel, clutch and pressure place have to be inserted from the bottom of the bell housing. I wasn't able to get any pictures to turn out of the clutch disc to trans shaft engagement when it was together, so I marked the shaft with permanent marker when it was together and then I took it all back apart again. The first picture shows where the splined hub of the clutch disc ends up on the trans shaft. The second pic shows the flywheel side of the clutch disc when installed up to the marked line, note that the spline is not 100% engaged. The third pic is the pressure plate side of the clutch disc, I guess that doesn't show much. Any way, I was able to do some measuring and I have 85% spline engagement. Is this enough to handle the 185 HP of the 270? If I need more engagement, what can I do to get it? Are offset clutch discs available?

 photo IMG_0985_zps59f101f3.jpg

 photo IMG_0987_zpsd62c77bb.jpg

 photo IMG_0986_zps16c4c7bd.jpg

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jboymechanic
Posted 2013-04-29 9:37 AM (#372559 - in reply to #366432)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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I could cut a new adapter from 1/8" steel plate instead of the 1/4" I have, that would give me 0.125" more spline engagement. I have about .68" engagement of a possilbe .80, the additional 0.125 would give me .805 total, or almost exactly 100% (give or take a few percent). Thoughts?
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wayfarer
Posted 2013-04-30 11:18 AM (#372755 - in reply to #366432)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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If you don't pound on it you might be ok.
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DeSotohead
Posted 2013-04-30 2:55 PM (#372785 - in reply to #372559)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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jboymechanic - 2013-04-29 9:37 AM

I could cut a new adapter from 1/8" steel plate instead of the 1/4" I have, that would give me 0.125" more spline engagement. I have about .68" engagement of a possilbe .80, the additional 0.125 would give me .805 total, or almost exactly 100% (give or take a few percent). Thoughts?


You could also flycut the rear and front of the transmission bellhousing each by half of that amount (or even a little more) and that would accommodate the 1/4" spacer then with full engagement.
You have already modified the bellhousing with the bolt spotfaces, so its just another mod of that one piece then.
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wayfarer
Posted 2013-05-01 10:46 AM (#372939 - in reply to #366432)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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DeSotohead makes a good observation. Sometimes we overlook the easy way to get-er-done...
The bell is plenty 'fat' and a cut off the trans side would give you what is needed.
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57chizler
Posted 2013-05-01 1:48 PM (#372975 - in reply to #370771)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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I wouldn't worry about the short spline engagement in the clutch disc hub.

The pic below shows the typical axle spline engagement in the differential side gear, as you can see the end of the splines falls short of full engagement in the side gear and millions of cars are driving around that way.



(Spline depth.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments Spline depth.jpg (60KB - 68 downloads)
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jboymechanic
Posted 2013-05-03 3:15 PM (#373304 - in reply to #366432)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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Well, I've decided to cut a new 1/8" plate. Did a stress analysis in my CAD software and it should still be plenty strong. So, I will have two of the 1/4" thick adapter plates and one extra 1/8" adapter plate, any one interested in purchasing the left overs? Not sure what other bell housings these would work for, the bolt pattern for bell housing is for the truck 4 speed.

In other news, I need a bushing 1.750" OD, 1.260" ID and 1.375" long. I found one off the shelf at 1.750" OD, 1.250" ID and 1.750" long. I'll open it up 0.010" and shorten it 0.375" and then press it into the factory throwout bearing sleeve and that will be done. I've decided to have the factory original clutch rebuilt as the levers of the 1980s clutch just don't match up to the throwout bearing as well as the levers of the stock clutch.
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GregCon
Posted 2013-05-05 7:38 AM (#373560 - in reply to #366432)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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The problem with 1/8" plate. regardless of CAD software, is it won't pass the eyeball test.

I'd also bet your CAD software does not consider harmonics or cyclical bending moments.

1/8" is too thin.
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jboymechanic
Posted 2013-05-05 8:30 PM (#373659 - in reply to #366432)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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The 1/8 adapter should be fine. Look at the clutch disc hub, that is thinner than 1/8 and all the torque transmitted from the engine to the trans must run through it. The trans will also be supported by the bearing retainer in the bell housing (which has been machined to match). I'm very confident that it will last, but I will admit that it does look odd only being 1/8 thick.
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57chizler
Posted 2013-05-06 4:46 PM (#373795 - in reply to #373659)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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The clutch disc center only has to deal with torsional loads, the adapter is also subjected to bending loads; especially since none of the bolts are common to both the bellhousing and the transmission case.

I wouldn't go thinner than 1/4" and don't worry about the short spline engagement.
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GregCon
Posted 2013-05-06 6:47 PM (#373802 - in reply to #366432)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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As noted, the disc doesn't support any weight. When you hit a big bump on the road, the disc has no idea it happened. Not so for the adapter plate.




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jboymechanic
Posted 2013-05-07 1:12 PM (#373943 - in reply to #366432)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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Well, I think I have have both. I can certainly add a cross member right below the union of the bell housing and the trans. I can use the 1/8" plate to give 100% spline engagement and I can support the weight of the assembly at the point of maximum bending moment.
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jboymechanic
Posted 2013-05-07 2:07 PM (#373969 - in reply to #372187)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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oldwood - 2013-04-26 10:18 PM

How about the flat head. Do you think you can adapt A-833 to it?


Yes, since the adapter plate matches the A-833 trans and the 4 speed truck trans bolt pattern the trans could be mounted behind a flat six assuming you have the correct bell housing.
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57chizler
Posted 2013-05-07 3:03 PM (#373983 - in reply to #373943)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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jboymechanic - 2013-05-07 10:12 AM

Well, I think I have have both. I can certainly add a cross member right below the union of the bell housing and the trans. I can use the 1/8" plate to give 100% spline engagement and I can support the weight of the assembly at the point of maximum bending moment.


You're worrying too much about that spline engagement....it's a non-issue.
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jboymechanic
Posted 2013-05-07 5:31 PM (#374000 - in reply to #373983)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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57chizler - 2013-05-07 2:03 PM

jboymechanic - 2013-05-07 10:12 AM

Well, I think I have have both. I can certainly add a cross member right below the union of the bell housing and the trans. I can use the 1/8" plate to give 100% spline engagement and I can support the weight of the assembly at the point of maximum bending moment.


You're worrying too much about that spline engagement....it's a non-issue.


You may have a point, I just checked the engine block casting with Bob Walker at Hot Hemi Heads. The engine is a 241, so only 150 hp and 220 ft-lb.
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jboymechanic
Posted 2018-01-12 9:17 AM (#556094 - in reply to #374000)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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I thought I would update this thread and replace the pictures that were lost. Below is the modified original truck bell housing from the 241 hemi. Sorry it is hard to read the red text, it says "machine pockets to clear bolt heads when adapter is bolted to A833 transmission".

Edited by jboymechanic 2018-01-12 9:21 AM




(1954 Dodge Hemi Bell machined 1 with notes.jpg)



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Attachments 1954 Dodge Hemi Bell machined 1 with notes.jpg (230KB - 3 downloads)
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jboymechanic
Posted 2018-01-12 9:26 AM (#556096 - in reply to #556094)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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Here are the same two machined bolt pockets when the bell, adapter plate and transmission are all together. The pockets are just wide and deep enough to clear the bolt head (I forget what size the bolts are). Should the transmission ever need to come out, these two bolts will be captured and you can re-torque them when the transmission is re-installed. This way the adapter doesn't need to be removed with the transmission.



(A833OD on 241 Hemi bell 2 with arrows.jpg)



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Attachments A833OD on 241 Hemi bell 2 with arrows.jpg (195KB - 3 downloads)
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jboymechanic
Posted 2018-01-12 9:33 AM (#556097 - in reply to #556096)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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Here is the laser cut plate on the A833 transmission. The plate is 1/4 inch thick A36 steel. In the first picture, the 4 red arrows call out the bolt pattern on the bell housing. Note in the second picture that the bearing retainer pilot protrudes through the thickness of the adapter. This is critical in order to maintain transmission input shaft to clutch/flywheel alignment.



(A833OD to 1954 Dodge 241 Hemi Bell adapter 4 with arrows.jpg)



(A833OD to 1954 Dodge 241 Hemi Bell adapter 3 with arrow.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments A833OD to 1954 Dodge 241 Hemi Bell adapter 4 with arrows.jpg (151KB - 3 downloads)
Attachments A833OD to 1954 Dodge 241 Hemi Bell adapter 3 with arrow.jpg (130KB - 3 downloads)
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jboymechanic
Posted 2018-01-12 9:50 AM (#556098 - in reply to #556097)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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Here are the transmission, adapter and bell housing all together and ready to install.



(A833OD on 241 Hemi bell 1 SMALL.jpg)



(A833OD on 241 Hemi bell 3 SMALL.jpg)



(A833OD on 241 Hemi bell 4 SMALL.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments A833OD on 241 Hemi bell 1 SMALL.jpg (158KB - 3 downloads)
Attachments A833OD on 241 Hemi bell 3 SMALL.jpg (161KB - 3 downloads)
Attachments A833OD on 241 Hemi bell 4 SMALL.jpg (201KB - 3 downloads)
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jboymechanic
Posted 2018-01-12 10:00 AM (#556099 - in reply to #556098)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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Here is the spline engagement. Not quite 100%, but darn close and good enough for the amount of power the little Hemi will make.



(Spline engagement 1.jpg)



(Spline engagement 2.jpg)



(Spline engagement 3.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments Spline engagement 1.jpg (138KB - 3 downloads)
Attachments Spline engagement 2.jpg (144KB - 3 downloads)
Attachments Spline engagement 3.jpg (150KB - 3 downloads)
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jboymechanic
Posted 2018-01-12 10:03 AM (#556100 - in reply to #556099)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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Here it is all together.



(1954 Dodge Hemi with A833 transmission SMALL.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments 1954 Dodge Hemi with A833 transmission SMALL.jpg (190KB - 3 downloads)
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jboymechanic
Posted 2018-01-12 10:04 AM (#556101 - in reply to #366432)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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Videos of it running. In the first video it is only running on 4 cylinders. The 2 barrel carb was only fueling on one side, so only one plane of the dual plane manifold was feeding air and fuel to the engine. It wasn't obvious at first since every other cylinder in the firing order was firing, so it actually ran pretty smooth. It just made terrible vacuum and had no throttle response.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW8FZmNpzBc

The second video is with a different carburetor on the intake, one I grabbed of the original 318 poly from my 1960 Plymouth. Motor runs sharp, but a little smokey. We had this engine apart for inspection some time ago and everything in the short bock looked great so we're guessing the heads need valve seals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8ls1V_utNo




Edited by jboymechanic 2018-01-12 10:10 AM
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jboymechanic
Posted 2018-01-12 11:01 AM (#556102 - in reply to #556101)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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Shifter linkage arrangement, similar to what I did with the A833 OD conversion in my 1960 Plymouth.

Edited by jboymechanic 2018-01-12 11:03 AM




(1954 Dodge Hemi with A833 transmission 2 SMALL.jpg)



(A833OD linkage 2 SMALL.jpg)



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Attachments 1954 Dodge Hemi with A833 transmission 2 SMALL.jpg (143KB - 3 downloads)
Attachments A833OD linkage 2 SMALL.jpg (161KB - 3 downloads)
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57chizler
Posted 2018-01-12 11:11 AM (#556103 - in reply to #556101)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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You're fortunate to have a cross shaft throw out setup. Boring the bell out to 5 1/8" might cause problems with the traditional side-exit fork pivot. What was the original hole diameter?
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jboymechanic
Posted 2018-01-12 4:42 PM (#556121 - in reply to #366432)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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I don't recall what the original pilot diameter was, but I don't recall having to machine much away. The bell housing is cast iron and WAY overbuilt, so I wasn't worried about enlarging the pilot. If anyone wants the CAD model for the adapter plate, I'd be happy to send it out.
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57chizler
Posted 2018-01-13 4:11 PM (#556165 - in reply to #556121)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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The reason I asked is that I'm working on a similar swap using an A-230 3-speed with the 5 1/8" bearing retainer and I've determined that the bearing retainer can be reduced in diameter to 4 3/8" and still maintain the sealing integrity. Easier for me to turn down the OD of the retainer than to bore the bell.
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jboymechanic
Posted 2018-01-13 8:57 PM (#556173 - in reply to #366432)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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Good idea. Probably a lot easier to replace the bearing retainer as well.
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-01-13 9:26 PM (#556176 - in reply to #366432)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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Is it possible to do the same thing on the 4 speed overdrive to use the more common earlier bell housing?
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58coupe
Posted 2018-01-14 11:20 AM (#556207 - in reply to #366432)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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The bearing retainer for the larger front bearing (5 1/8") also has a larger diameter bolt pattern than the two smaller retainers, so I am not sure it can be reduced enough to fit the smaller hole. This is also something I will be doing, using an 833 OD behind the engine in my 58.
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57chizler
Posted 2018-01-14 5:09 PM (#556231 - in reply to #556207)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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Location: NorCal

The outer diameter of the front bearing retainer comes in three sizes, 4.35", 4.805" and 5 1/8" with two different bolt circles, 3.70" and 4.15".

The 4.35" retainer has only the 3.70" bolt circle, the 4.805" retainer can have either the 3.70" or the 4.16" and the 5 1/8" retainer has only the 4.15" bolt circle. There is an oil return pocket cast into the back side of the retainer and this determines how small the diameter can be reduced to before interfering with this pocket.
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57chizler
Posted 2018-01-14 5:16 PM (#556234 - in reply to #556176)
Subject: Re: A-833 swap, behind a Dodge 230 flatty



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Location: NorCal
Powerflite - 2018-01-13 6:26 PM

Is it possible to do the same thing on the 4 speed overdrive to use the more common earlier bell housing?


The standard 833 and the OD 833 share the same input shaft length and case bolt pattern so the determining factor in interchangeability is the diameter of the bearing retainer.
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