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My Imp bit me.
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60 Imp
Posted 2014-03-17 7:27 AM (#431596)
Subject: My Imp bit me.


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Location: North Australia		Metaphorically

Nearly three weeks ago I took the Imp out on the highway and opened her up for the first time. During the run (just over 110) a freeze plug blew out. I didn't hear it or see the steam and I overheated the newly rebuilt engine (2000 miles). The engine starts and runs OK, but might be fluffy on one pot. I intend to compression check it along with an oil change before I put in a new plug and see how bad it is.

If only I had known and used the Hemi Hot Heads milled stainless freeze plugs.

Anyone re-building or working on an early 413 with the stepped plug holes (or a hemi for that matter), spend the bucks and use this upgrade. I haven't got mine yet but they look the goods. Any list users who used them who want to chime in? Also anyone experienced in overheating a 413, what should I be looking for?

PS, I did my best work on this engine, including installing the disc type plugs, and I am feeling crap about this. Taken me 3 weeks to write it down!!!

http://www.hothemiheads.com/main_caps/freeze_plugs_stainless.html



Steve
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58coupe
Posted 2014-03-17 8:32 AM (#431602 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: Re: My Imp bit me.



Expert

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Location: Alaska		I had that happen once on a 361 at speed but the gusher of water onto the exhaust manifold let me know "something" was up! I ended up over heating that engine several times because of a different problem but never cracked anything. Maybe I was just fortunate.
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60 dart
Posted 2014-03-17 2:08 PM (#431646 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: Re: My Imp bit me.



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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA		one of the first things i looked at when i got my poly stroker back was the soft plugs . to me the looked like they were not peened enough , barely concaved dimples , so i went over all of them . it
took about 2 minutes and 2 ball peen hammers ----------------------------------------------------later
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ttotired
Posted 2014-03-17 7:07 PM (#431685 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: Re: My Imp bit me.



Expert 5K+

Posts: 8443
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Location: Perth Australia		When I put my poly together, I had a really hard time getting the plugs to stay in, they just kept blowing out (it still worries me)

I have seen rubber plugs on ebay that might get a go if it happens again.

They look like a piece of suspention rubber sanwiched between 2 washers with a bolt through the middle of it all, looks like you just put them in, tighten the bolt and thats it

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VAN HELSING
Posted 2014-03-17 8:39 PM (#431708 - in reply to #431685)
Subject: Re: My Imp bit me.



Elite Veteran

Posts: 982
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Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia		.......


Yep, I've seen those rubber plugs on evilbay Mick, they seem to work on the expansion of the rubber as the nut is tightened and compresses the rubber. Not sure how long they'd last though as the heat would eventually make the rubber hard and brittle ??



......
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d500neil
Posted 2014-03-17 8:49 PM (#431711 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: RE: My Imp bit me.



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

Posts: 19146
5000500050002000200010025
Location: bishop, ca
Maybe this will make you feel better (or, about our cars, anyway):





(PICT0676.JPG)



(PICT0677.JPG)



(PICT0678.JPG)



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Attachments PICT0676.JPG (106KB - 191 downloads)
Attachments PICT0677.JPG (55KB - 177 downloads)
Attachments PICT0678.JPG (61KB - 211 downloads)
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60 Imp
Posted 2014-03-19 8:04 AM (#431955 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: RE: My Imp bit me.


2000100050025
Location: North Australia		Thanks Neil, but probably wont feel better until I check it out. This weekend I start.

Mick and all, don't risk it with the old disc type plugs, lash out for the HHH plugs and leave that (blowing out, leaving you on the side of the road and fu@%ing the engine) problem behind. When I started researching I found a lot of accounts of this happening with the 413 and other engines. I was real particular about installing mine and was confident I got it right, and I was bitten hard!

$125 for a set of the stainless plugs shipped to the NT, (much cheaper than a tow+ embarrassment + major engine damage + depression caused by not able to drive the car).

Steve.
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Beltran
Posted 2014-03-20 11:31 PM (#432231 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: Re: My Imp bit me.



Expert

Posts: 1730
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Location: Michigan		Hey Neil please post the rest of that article. I have that last problem in my car and I want to see how the story ends! Please & Thanks!
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d500neil
Posted 2014-03-21 5:30 PM (#432344 - in reply to #432231)
Subject: Re: My Imp bit me.



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

Posts: 19146
5000500050002000200010025
Location: bishop, ca		That was the end of that story; this article, on all the 300 letter cars, appeared in the Vol. 13, #4 (4thQ; 1975) of
Automobile Quarterly.

His article recounts how he and the wife liked to travel quickly, and that she, relaxing on the leather seat, would ask casually
as how fast they were traveling, and he reply "90", and she would say :"ohhhh..."

This issue is well worth an Amazon/Evil-bay search, for your library.

AFAIK, these are the (only?) other issue of A.Q. that have Chrysler/MoPar articles: V17/#1; V18/#4; V21/#2 and V32/-4


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Beltran
Posted 2014-03-21 7:59 PM (#432374 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: Re: My Imp bit me.



Expert

Posts: 1730
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Location: Michigan		So there is no more to that last paragraph? "The car arrived with a terrible tremor in the drivetrain .... "
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60 Imp
Posted 2014-03-24 6:47 AM (#432728 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: RE: My Imp bit me.


2000100050025
Location: North Australia		Some progress.

Looked at the car and found it was a head freeze plug that popped out, not a block plug. The engine machinist installed these. Looks like we will talk soon.

I compression tested the engine and got 170 to 185 PSI on all eight. Ok I think. So I need to decide whether I pull the heads and have a real good look or replace the popped plug and try it out. I might need to pull the heads just to install 4 new freeze plugs, but undecided yet.

I think the head plugs are 1 1/4"? can anyone confirm?

Spark plugs looked OK, varied between clean and slightly carbon contaminated. 1250 Miles since the engine was rebuilt.

Any advice from the forum appreciated!

p.s. I am still mad as hell!

Steve.

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miquelonbrad
Posted 2014-03-27 8:59 AM (#433320 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: Re: My Imp bit me.



Expert

Posts: 1737
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Location: Hay Lakes, Alberta, Canada		Steve,
I'd definitely have a talk with the engine machinist. Any good business "should" stand behind their work, and cover costs of any damage done. But since it has already happened, there's not much you can do, but fix the issue, and try it out!
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hemidenis
Posted 2014-03-27 4:21 PM (#433385 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: Re: My Imp bit me.



Expert

Posts: 3887
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Location: Northen Virginia		i had the same problem with the heads plugs of my 361, can someone tell me where i can buy a good set?
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60 Imp
Posted 2014-04-01 6:31 AM (#434125 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: RE: My Imp bit me.


2000100050025
Location: North Australia		More on this. Some of the Old Timers on here will be able to help, please chime in!

Thinking it was the block freeze plug that popped , I ordered a set of HHH stainless freeze plugs. The block plugs are are 1 5/8". I sent an email to HHH and they confirmed the size is 1 5/8. (I think this was wrong info)

Upon further investigation I found it was a head plug that blew, not one of the block plugs. These (head plugs) are 1 3/8.

The ordered plugs arrived today and they are 1 3/8.

There are 6 block plugs and 4 head plugs (I think) in my 413, and HHH supply sets of 6 plugs. (Anyone confused yet???)

Please tell me, are there 6, 1 3/8 plugs in an early Hemi?

Either way I think I am lucky, I now have the plugs to fit the head (and to test this old motor).

Steve
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ttotired
Posted 2014-04-01 7:45 PM (#434201 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: Re: My Imp bit me.



Expert 5K+

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Location: Perth Australia		Steve, are they the dish type or the cup type (if you know what I mean)?

I have used stainless dish type ones on my poly (block) and went through 18 plugs till I got 6 to stay in.

I thought I was/had done something wrong, byt reading this makes me feel a bit better, although, I am still worried that when I eventually get it on the road, it might happen again

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VAN HELSING
Posted 2014-04-01 10:40 PM (#434223 - in reply to #434201)
Subject: Re: My Imp bit me.



Elite Veteran

Posts: 982
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Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia		......

If the casting is thick enough where the freeze plugs go to hold 'em in I prefer to use cup type plugs rather than the dish types.

Don't care if it's OEM or not, I'm sure a cooked motor is more painful to have than non OEM freeze plugs.

If it works it's fine by me.

......

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60 Imp
Posted 2014-04-02 7:35 AM (#434265 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: RE: My Imp bit me.


2000100050025
Location: North Australia		Mick, so my misfortune made you feel better I'm glad.
18 replaced plugs??? You must be doing something wrong or your holes are enlarged! Also, you must have some banged up knuckles and the patience of a Saint is all I can say. Me gladder too now!

First off, I screwed up. The HHH SS plugs ARE 1 5/8.

2nd, don't take the risk Mick, buy the HHH plugs if your Poly holes are 1 5/8. They look real good.

3rd, All the bash in plugs are the dish type in this 413.

4th, where did you get the stainless plugs, (and what size?) and what did you do to install?

Van. The counter bored dish type plug holes wont take a cup type plug, not enough sealing area in the bore (the counter-bore is not deep enough).

I found my new dish type plugs (the ones in the block that I installed and are still in there. 1 5/8 on ebay, from a Pom seller) easy to install (donk on a stand). These were cad plated steel jobs about .020 thicker than the standard (and I expect original) block plugs. I sealed them with the Aviation Permatex as advised by Big M.

I have done quite a bit of research on-line (read hours!) because of this problem and the prevalent opinion is these type plugs are a problem, and the HHH plugs are the best solution with JB weld used as a sealer/bonding agent a second proven solution. As far as I can tell these solutions are for the block plugs, not the heads.

I still haven't figured the best way to install the head plugs yet. I might copy the HHH design in 1 3/8.

Hope this info/thread helps others avoid this same shambles
Any experience/advice at this point gladly accepted.

Steve.

Edited by 60 Imp 2014-04-02 7:37 AM
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ttotired
Posted 2014-04-02 7:24 PM (#434364 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: Re: My Imp bit me.



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Location: Perth Australia		I thought I was doing something wrong as well

The first set were installed on a stand and sealed with permatex and had been in for a few weeks before the engine was started.

I ended up cleaning all the paint and permatex off to get them to stay in.

Patiance of a saint, dont thing so, think the neibhors heard a side of me that they would not have heard before

Putting new ones in once the engine is in (even without inner gaurds) was a pain

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guyman
Posted 2014-04-06 2:35 AM (#434730 - in reply to #434364)
Subject: Re: My Imp bit me.


Extreme Veteran

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I put some of those rubber plugs into a '59 Sport Fury I just traded and they went in really nice...no leaks. I can't attest to how well they stay in because I don't have the car any more. Also., on ebay they are a lot more then if you just get them from AUtozone...they are a doorman part., I think I paid like $4.50 each for them, somewhere around there.
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hemidenis
Posted 2014-04-06 1:19 PM (#434762 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: Re: My Imp bit me.



Expert

Posts: 3887
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Location: Northen Virginia		best one? It is not easier with pictures guys?

Edited by hemidenis 2014-04-06 1:47 PM




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hemidenis
Posted 2014-04-06 2:01 PM (#434768 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: RE: My Imp bit me.



Expert

Posts: 3887
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Location: Northen Virginia

 

Forgot to add that the early hemi has no plugs on the heads, only 6 block plugs plus, 7 Allen type and of course the one for the camshaft.

 



Edited by hemidenis 2014-04-06 2:02 PM
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60 Imp
Posted 2014-05-06 7:46 AM (#439514 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: RE: My Imp bit me.


2000100050025
Location: North Australia		Update on my plug freeze problem.
I made some freeze plugs similar to the HHH jobs. These were fitted and I pressure tested the CW system with air to 10 PSI. All looked good, so pressed ahead and reassembled the rest of the engine. Filled with water and started her up. Engine sounded crap for a minute until the lifters filled up. Usually the lifters stop pretty quick but the oil has been drained for weeks. I also filled with 20-60 Penrite which may have contributed to the extra long clatter. It quietened down and sounded good so I looked for leaks and watched the water in the radiator. 5 or so minutes in and a few revs the water dropped about an inch in the top tank, no water under the car so I shut it down and topped up the tank, re-started and watched again. Soon water looked like it had started to flow (I now know this was wrong, just some convection) and heating up the tank. All Good. Then I partially screwed on the rad cap 1 click (probably half a click). within a short time and more revs and the cap blew off shooting out water and steam, lucky I was off to the side
Looked in the rad tank and could see the tubes, WTF? I am thinking the CW is getting combustion gas and she's f**ked. So, fill her up again 2-3 litres or so. Started her up again. Engine idling good and within minutes the water is flowing fast in the top tank, temp gauge stable on 180F, I can rev it up with good response and watch the water flowing good in the top tank. Took the car around the block for a drive and it is going good, 180 or so and I was giving it some. Came home and shut it down. all normal.
So as the CW was brown, which is crap seeing as it is a new rebuilt engine I flushed the CW system a couple of times. Filled it up again and re-started. Within 5 the level dropped out of the top tank again. topped up, re started and all good! Then I repeated the whole cycle again, with the same result. After a complete drain the engine takes many minutes to suck the radiator top tank dry, I saw it do it the 4th time and it happened in seconds (emptying the top tank while reheating a fresh charge of CW.)
SO, I be thinking and looking, and I think I figured it out (I know, a bit slow, but I think I got it)

The heads are a high spot in the CW system and it holds an air space in the heads. Once the thermostat opens, and this takes many minutes as no water flow means no heat transfer to the thermostat to open it. Once it all gets real hot i.e. steam forming in the heads the T/stat opens and the pump floods the heads and empties the top tank. Now it is all good and the thing is ready to roll! Not sure if this is peculiar to my car but I would like to know. I am thinking it is a feature of all RB's? If so this could be why these plugs disc type plugs pop out of these engines.

Just mebbee, if this happens (the heads priming with CW) many minutes after a fresh charge of CW with the radiator cap on, the steam generated in the heads over-pressurises the CW system, the cap cant cope with the amount of steam generated and blows out a disc type freeze plug. To expand on this (pun not intended) the overheated head (no cooling) and the quickly quenched thin steel plug (water started to flow) loosens the interference fit between the plug and head casting and out she goes!

Photo of my plugs coming.

Wadda ya think?

Steve









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60 Imp
Posted 2014-05-09 7:54 AM (#440022 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: RE: My Imp bit me.


2000100050025
Location: North Australia		The hood is officially down. Car running good, took it to work (25 Km one way) and she run good. took another half litre to top up the radiator after the run.

Steve.
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2014-05-09 11:00 AM (#440055 - in reply to #440022)
Subject: RE: My Imp bit me.



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Location: Parts Unknown		Most people would have junked an ugly old tub after that much trouble. Many did !
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60 Imp
Posted 2014-05-10 5:13 AM (#440129 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: RE: My Imp bit me.


2000100050025
Location: North Australia		Well, the old tub was going good today. clocked up 100 miles driving around to see some mates.
Looked at a 29 Packard conv. a 29 Indian 4, a 31 Ford 5 window, a 25 Dodge Buckboard, a 46 Dodge ute and a 60 Belair.

Great day looking at some old stuff. All are goers except the 46.


So far you are the only Bloke to call it ugly today Doc!

Steve.

Edited by 60 Imp 2014-05-10 5:20 AM
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60 Imp
Posted 2014-05-10 5:25 AM (#440132 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: RE: My Imp bit me.


2000100050025
Location: North Australia		For the record, about ten years ago I showed the Missus a photo of a 60 Imp 2drht crown, and told her one day I am going to get me one of these. Her response to that was "OMFG that is ugly".

Now I have to put a towel on the seat when she rides in it

Some things just grow on yer, I guess.

Steve
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60 Imp
Posted 2014-06-24 8:41 AM (#446383 - in reply to #440132)
Subject: RE: My Imp bit me.


2000100050025
Location: North Australia		Sorry for not doing this earlier, Slack!

Here are photos of the 1 3/8 plugs I made to solve the problem of the head disk plug blowing out.

I made these from a piece of stainless bar stock (disk), the SS countersunk screw is a 6mm X 45 mm long (couldn't get 1/4 unc or unf in time), the strong backs are part of the shank of 12mm SS bolts, and the disk and screw O rings are Viton material (for temp resistance).

I have the dimensions I used and Viton o ring size codes if anyone needs that info.

One benefit of these is they are easily removable in the future if require, though I hope I never have to.





(DSCF2664.jpg)



(DSCF2657.jpg)



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57plybel
Posted 2014-06-24 9:49 AM (#446395 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: RE: My Imp bit me.



Extreme Veteran

Posts: 594
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Good info Steve,

Did you go via Adelaide or USA for the plug kit ?   It really looks almost foolproof !

I use a similar brown compound viton o-ring at work for through coolant lathe tools and we replace them every 3 years or so as the enviroment is quite harsh for them....

Handy to keep spares in the car !

 

From discussions through the years I recall that ordinary mild steel disc plugs grip the best, and brass / stainless ones grip considerably less..... I araldited my last set in and they are still with us (brass)

but future builds will be either your removeable stainless units or stock mild steel discs with a coat of silicon on the back to protect from rustout.  I am perdantic with coolants/inhibitors so am not fussed with potential rustout.

Just stripped 2 x early big blocks, both virgins and they are destined for a molasses dunking to eradicate all the mineral scale within the block coolant passages, particularly at the rear....

(just a mention if you had prior heat issues....)

 

Pics to follow !

 

 

Colin

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58coupe
Posted 2014-06-24 10:02 AM (#446400 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: Re: My Imp bit me.



Expert

Posts: 1740
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Location: Alaska		Interesting terms you use 57plybel, what is "araldite and what is meant by "perdantic"? I see you live in Oz but are we still speaking the kings english?
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57plybel
Posted 2014-06-24 11:00 AM (#446414 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: RE: My Imp bit me.



Extreme Veteran

Posts: 594
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Ha, typo for pedantic !  and Araldite was the first 2 part epoxy glue that I had ever heard of.... a brand name nonetheless.   Perhaps similar to JB weld?

 

Colin

 

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60crossram
Posted 2014-07-09 1:40 AM (#448426 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: Re: My Imp bit me.



Elite Veteran

Posts: 836
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Location: Layton, Utah		If the block where the freeze plug expands in is completely clean and the freeze plug edge is coated with permatex sealant, tap the center of the freeze plug in the center a little bit then use a punch and carefully tap around the outer edge without tapping the freeze plug too much as it will start to make the freeze plug outer diameter smaller if tapped too much. I have never had a problem with one coming out if they are installed correctly. DeSoto lives !!!
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60 Imp
Posted 2014-07-09 7:02 AM (#448440 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: RE: My Imp bit me.


2000100050025
Location: North Australia		Col, sorry for the delayed response. I bought the plugs directly from HHH. They are still on the shelf, but will go in one day. I made the plugs for the heads. the failed ones were installed by my engine machinist.

60crossram. Your description is how I installed the block plugs, I tapped in a spiral and got them close to flat, and not concave. they are still in the block and look sound.

Steve.

Edited by 60 Imp 2014-07-09 7:05 AM
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57plybel
Posted 2014-07-09 10:55 AM (#448461 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: RE: My Imp bit me.



Extreme Veteran

Posts: 594
500252525
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Thanks Steve, only just realized YOU made the head plug kit; nice work !   Might try the same method if I can work out how much crush to put on the o'rings under the c/sunk screw by way of c/bore...

 

I've got the block in the molasses bath for a few months to clean out the mineral deposits in the water jackets.... good way to run cool if you have the time to soak it....

 

Noice !!!

 

 

Colin

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60 Imp
Posted 2014-07-09 10:32 PM (#448542 - in reply to #431596)
Subject: RE: My Imp bit me.


2000100050025
Location: North Australia		Thanks Colin, I am happy with the result. I will put together some dimensions and viton o-ring numbers on this thread for you and any others who might need the info.

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