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Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?
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ab7fh
Posted 2014-03-28 6:03 PM (#433585)
Subject: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?


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Has anyone installed subframe connectors on a '60 Dart or similar? I would appreciate photos if you have them.

Also... I am interested in replacing the tiny stock front shocks with something more substantial by replacing the tube which the shock is held in with a longer piece. Thoughts??

 

This is being done in anticipation of a new 425hp dual quad poly stroker :D

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60 dart
Posted 2014-03-28 8:49 PM (#433622 - in reply to #433585)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?



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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2014-03-30 5:31 AM (#433775 - in reply to #433585)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?



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1. Installing frame-connectors is always a good idea and firms up the body of the car.

2. Waste of time.
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ab7fh
Posted 2014-03-30 9:52 AM (#433797 - in reply to #433585)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?


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#2 is actually very easy and I think it will help control the ride of the car. The stock front shocks look like they belong on a golf cart. I picked up a set of '70 Dart shocks which are 2"-3" longer. Most people will never be able to tell anything was done by looking at the slightly taller shock towers.

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ab7fh
Posted 2014-03-30 9:52 AM (#433798 - in reply to #433585)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?


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#2 is actually very easy and I think it will help control the ride of the car. The stock front shocks look like they belong on a golf cart. I picked up a set of '70 Dart shocks which are 2"-3" longer. Most people will never be able to tell anything was done by looking at the slightly taller shock towers.

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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2014-03-30 12:06 PM (#433822 - in reply to #433585)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?



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Are you going Baja-racing?
I could use shorter shocks on my ride-improved '73 Dart.

While there are better shocks available, a set of KYB-shocks usually works fine on large '60s Mopars.
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60 dart
Posted 2014-03-30 8:07 PM (#433881 - in reply to #433585)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?



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the height of the shock towers isn't the problem , the diameter is ----------------------------------------------later
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ab7fh
Posted 2014-04-01 10:27 AM (#434138 - in reply to #433585)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?


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Old tower is out, new 3" taller tower is tacked in place. I cycled the suspension and there is no issue with interference. The new shock will have more fluid, and longer travel. I am definitely interested in more droop since that will allow better weight distribution to the rear under acceleration. I will cut down the bump stop on the upper control arm a bit to allow even more droop.

Not what the factory original restorers are interested in, but this is a "restification", or "restomod"... Not a box stock resto.

Pics to come...
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finsruskw
Posted 2014-04-01 12:35 PM (#434149 - in reply to #433585)
Subject: RE: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?


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What do you think the torsion bars are for??
Better plan on a trip to the alignment rack when Ya get done screwing with it.
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ab7fh
Posted 2014-04-01 2:11 PM (#434157 - in reply to #433585)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?


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Torsion bars are springs. Shock absorbers control spring action. Shocks do not affect alignment angles in any way what so ever. However the front end will be aligned since I'm replacing all of the rubber, ball joints and TREs.

Do you see any problem with the stock "tube". I was surprised to see that it's not a tube at all... at least not until it's welded at the ends. It's nothing, but wrapped steel.



Edited by ab7fh 2014-04-01 2:15 PM




(new_tube.jpg)



(stock_tower.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments new_tube.jpg (76KB - 81 downloads)
Attachments stock_tower.jpg (98KB - 92 downloads)
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60 dart
Posted 2014-04-01 4:28 PM (#434169 - in reply to #433585)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?



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seems to me using a longer shock mount tube , you also have to increase the dia . of the hole the shock slips up into . the ratio of height to dia. of hole as oem was tight as it was . so
if you increased the shock length , you have to increase the hole dia. or the shock won't slip up into place . i really like your work but i think you're gonna need to do more to get the shock
up into place . it would be way kool if the shocks could be placed from the top -------------------------------------------------------later
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rushpowersystems
Posted 2014-04-01 5:26 PM (#434177 - in reply to #433585)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?


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I don’t understand building a wheel stander out of a unibody, but then at 425 HP, probably not. Granted there is a lot poundage to get the rear end to hook up, but what class are you looking at? If you are going to need a roll cage, why not tie the sub-frames in with the roll cage.
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1960fury
Posted 2014-04-01 6:38 PM (#434190 - in reply to #434138)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?



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ab7fh - 2014-04-01 10:27 AM
I am definitely interested in more droop since that will allow better weight distribution to the rear under acceleration. I will cut down the bump stop on the upper control arm a bit to allow even more droop.



i believe dave was referring to your "droop"-plans. ok, the damage is already done but do you really mean you need to raise the front end that much to get better traction because of 425hp??? under acceleration the nose goes up anyway.
anyway, good luck with aligning and general handling, especially at high speeds, with the nose in the air that much. how about trying to archive better weight distribution by shifting the actual weight to the rear? you will not only get better traction you will also get a better handling and driving car that does not look stupid. every pound off the front end will improve weight distribution, traction and handling and it looks like, by your pics, you are adding weight to the front. why the reinforcements?

Edited by 1960fury 2014-04-01 6:57 PM
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ab7fh
Posted 2014-04-01 6:59 PM (#434194 - in reply to #433585)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?


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The cars ride height will be unchanged. The shocks don't support the cars weight. I've already relocated the battery to the trunk. 



Edited by ab7fh 2014-04-01 7:01 PM
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1960fury
Posted 2014-04-01 7:16 PM (#434197 - in reply to #434194)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?



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ab7fh - 2014-04-01 6:59 PM

The cars ride height will be unchanged. The shocks don't support the cars weight. I've already relocated the battery to the trunk. 



i relocated my battery to the right rear trunk corner, as far to the rear as possible and its mounted lower there too. it made a huge difference and while i like all original cars that is a mod every fler should do.

Edited by 1960fury 2014-04-01 8:02 PM
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rushpowersystems
Posted 2014-04-01 7:47 PM (#434202 - in reply to #433585)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?


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Is this a well played out 4/1 joke? I am really confused as to what and why. Yellow top for a remote starting battery? Not mounted as far back as possible? Too small of a pre-fab amplified base box, firing into a large trunk? You would be better off swapping the two. There are some strange goings on here.
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ab7fh
Posted 2014-04-01 8:36 PM (#434210 - in reply to #434202)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?


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rushpowersystems - 2014-04-01 5:47 AM Is this a well played out 4/1 joke? I am really confused as to what and why. Yellow top for a remote starting battery? Not mounted as far back as possible? Too small of a pre-fab amplified base box, firing into a large trunk? You would be better off swapping the two. There are some strange goings on here.

 

The acoustics in the car are very good.

This isn't a drag car, it's a street car with an emphasis on going fast in a straight line, but with considerations for the mountain roads I drive as well. Mounting the battery all the way back makes the rear end want to rotate more. This car doesn't need the rear end rotating :D

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1960fury
Posted 2014-04-01 9:02 PM (#434212 - in reply to #434210)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?



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ab7fh - 2014-04-01 8:36 PM

Mounting the battery all the way back makes the rear end want to rotate more. This car doesn't need the rear end rotating :D



aprils fools day joke? all the way back only shifts more weight to the rear (lever action) and therefore reduces the possibility of traction loss ("rear end rotating") sounds logic, not? why go halfway?
and btw this is what books, like the mopar performance chassis book, recommends. and the battery sits lower too. you mounted it in the highest possible location. not smart.
no offence intended, but, really.... your comments&picture...... it looks like you do no know what you are doing.
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rushpowersystems
Posted 2014-04-01 9:08 PM (#434213 - in reply to #433585)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?


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Cars don’t have good acoustics, that is why they turn the interior into a box for competition, you have a large interior space, you would be better off firing it into the back seat, it will look cleaner and it will be easier to get the system in balance, that is you will get better sound quality. Assuming you are running deck power to the rest of the system you would get cleaner sound by running 6” components front and 6” 2 way directional in the rear. The rear windshield is great for bouncing bass off of, and then you don’t need the amp, just run better quality head unit.
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ttotired
Posted 2014-04-01 9:47 PM (#434217 - in reply to #433585)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?



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I can see both sides of the discussion on battery location here

ab7fh is talking about loosing the rear sideways, as in the more weight to the rear and further away from the rear axle will promote a pendulum action, where once it goes loose, it will want to stay going loose (spinout).

Too much weight to the front of the car promotes a car that wants to understeer and can be worse than an oversteering car and if you get that weight much past the front axle line, it will take weight off the rear end and can then cause an oversteering car with a perpecity to dive badly under braking

Rear engined cars (Porche ect) are renound for this.

For cornering, the lower you can get the weight the better (less body roll and less chance of a rollover)

In a straight line car, the further back you can get the weight past the rear axle, the better the traction and weight of the engine offset will be.

Its pretty well known that a well ballanced car handles best and the lower the weight in the car, the better the cornering.

Look at how circuit racing cars are set up (cars that do left and right turns, not oval track) and you will see that they try to get the car as evenly ballanced as possible (within the rules).

ab7fh says he is building a road car, its better to still put the battery lower, but in the sceme of things, it wont hurt the street driveabilty that much.

As for the sound system stuff, totally not my scene, but what Darren says makes sence

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rushpowersystems
Posted 2014-04-01 10:28 PM (#434220 - in reply to #433585)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?


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Oversteer, understeer, Porche, what did you just finish an episode of Top Gear?
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1960fury
Posted 2014-04-01 10:35 PM (#434222 - in reply to #434217)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?



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michael, oversteer happens when rear wheels lose traction. so try to get as much weight (traction) to the rear as possible. these cars are, and will stay, front heavy anyway. more weight on the rear wheels also reduce stopping distances. and you agree that weight should be as low as possible. so = battery as far back as possible.


Edited by 1960fury 2014-04-01 10:40 PM
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60 dart
Posted 2014-04-02 12:17 AM (#434231 - in reply to #433585)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?



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stop body roll , beef up the rear springs (kinda stiff) , add traction bars ,,,,,,,,,,, BAM ,,,,,, problem solved . what kinda trans you usin ????????? ------------------------------later
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ab7fh
Posted 2014-04-02 1:00 AM (#434240 - in reply to #433585)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?


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For drag racing the relocated battery is usually best mounted behind the right wheel well as far back as possible.

For cars that will be turning, when the battery is located all the way to the rear it's adds to force that is whipping the rear of the car around. Wish I could describe it better, but think about it... Take 50 lbs, and put it in the center of a spinning mass, and then at one end of a spinning mass. Which one do you think will contribute more to the continuation of the spin? A battery in the center, or all the way out at the end??

Relocating the battery above the rear axle, moves weight to the rear, and keeps the weight in a location that is not detrimental to handling. This car will see straight line acceleration and canyon carving as well. The battery is no higher over the rear axle than it was when it was sitting high in the front left fender. No matter what, the weight has been moved to the rear.

I think I brought this all up on the wrong site...

When it's done I'll post pics.
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ab7fh
Posted 2014-04-02 1:08 AM (#434241 - in reply to #433585)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?


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Found this on a Porsche 911 site. This is exactly what I had been taught about setting up a car for handling:

"Weight placed beyond the wheelbase of the vehicle is much harder to control than weight within the wheelbase. It’s like trying to spin left and right while holding a 5-pound sack of flower. If you hold it close to your body, you can spin back and forth fairly easily. Now hold it 2 feet out in front of you and do your spins again… Not so easy to change direction now is it?"

While my location atop the rear axle is not ideal for it's height, it is, in my opinion, better there than out towards the bumper in this application.
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ab7fh
Posted 2014-04-02 1:48 AM (#434243 - in reply to #434231)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?


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60 dart - 2014-04-01 10:17 AM stop body roll , beef up the rear springs (kinda stiff) , add traction bars ,,,,,,,,,,, BAM ,,,,,, problem solved . what kinda trans you usin ????????? ------------------------------later

I am running 5 leaf ESPO springs right now. They were built at -1" so they gave them the extra leaf to help them retain load carrying ability. I want to try the Caltrac bars with these springs.

I run the Caltracs on my A-body and they are great, but that mono-leaf is super stiff. I know some folks who run Caltracs with multi-leaf springs and have been happy with the setup.

This is my A-body:

This is the chassis work I did to it:

Battery re-located behind the right tire:



Edited by ab7fh 2014-04-02 1:50 AM
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60 dart
Posted 2014-04-02 2:47 PM (#434314 - in reply to #433585)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?



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when i relocated my battery to the rear , i figured that since the battery was left side , i'd leave it left side . i also thought about over the axle but i went for ease of access
to the battery and easier initial installation . the cutoff switch is directly behind the battery . i've been wondering though , is there an amp loss to the starter during a start
up . i've never really done any research to find the answer ----------------------------------------------later
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1960fury
Posted 2014-04-02 2:56 PM (#434316 - in reply to #434240)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?



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ab7fh - 2014-04-02 1:00 AM

For drag racing the relocated battery is usually best mounted behind the right wheel well as far back as possible.

For cars that will be turning, when the battery is located all the way to the rear it's adds to force that is whipping the rear of the car around. Wish I could describe it better, but think about it... Take 50 lbs, and put it in the center of a spinning mass, and then at one end of a spinning mass. Which one do you think will contribute more to the continuation of the spin? A battery in the center, or all the way out at the end??


good example, thanks. except a car is not a spinning mass until it loses rear end traction, caused by poor weight distribution. read below why its a good thing if the "spinning mass" counteracts the natural understeer of these cars.

ab7fh - 2014-04-02 1:00 AM
Relocating the battery above the rear axle, moves weight to the rear, and keeps the weight in a location that is not detrimental to handling. This car will see straight line acceleration and canyon carving as well. The battery is no higher over the rear axle than it was when it was sitting high in the front left fender. No matter what, the weight has been moved to the rear.

I think I brought this all up on the wrong site...

Found this on a Porsche 911 site. This is exactly what I had been taught about setting up a car for handling:

"Weight placed beyond the wheelbase of the vehicle is much harder to control than weight within the wheelbase. It’s like trying to spin left and right while holding a 5-pound sack of flower. If you hold it close to your body, you can spin back and forth fairly easily. Now hold it 2 feet out in front of you and do your spins again… Not so easy to change direction now is it?"

While my location atop the rear axle is not ideal for it's height, it is, in my opinion, better there than out towards the bumper in this application.
When it's done I'll post pics.


we are talking fl. these cars are all hopelessly front heavy, no matter what you do, except maybe when you are converting to aluminum engine/transaxle. of course the best place for the center of gravity is as low as possible near the cars center between the axles but as this is impossible in our cars we do not need to talk about it. if these cars fishtail, they do because of loss of traction/not enough weight on the rear wheels.

but again, these cars have all the tendency to understeer. not good. skilled drivers prefer oversteering cars as this can be an advantage. the battery BEHIND the rear axle counteracts front end weight and the tendency to understeer as more weight behind the rear axle is pushing the front end into the direction the car is supposed to go when making a turn, further it reduces the tendency of the rear end to become "light" during braking and therefore reduces stopping distances. and of course more weight on rear wheels means better traction in all driving condition. very simple physics.

speaking of porsches, the old air cooled boxers with the engine BEHIND the rear axle are known to run circles around about anything on the road today in skilled hands. as i said good drivers prefer oversteering cars.

again, easy to understand laws of physics. battery all the way back=more weight on the rear wheels=less rear end rise=better traction. its as simple as that.

ab7fh - 2014-04-02 1:00 AM I think I brought this all up on the wrong site...


depends. if you want to learn (see above) this can be a good place.

Edited by 1960fury 2014-04-02 3:36 PM
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ab7fh
Posted 2014-04-02 4:37 PM (#434336 - in reply to #433585)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?


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With 425HP and 4.10s  there will be oversteer at the will of my right foot.



Edited by ab7fh 2014-04-02 4:38 PM
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1960fury
Posted 2014-04-02 6:38 PM (#434354 - in reply to #434336)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?



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ab7fh - 2014-04-02 4:37 PM

With 425HP and 4.10s  there will be oversteer at the will of my right foot.



see what i mean, that powerslide (waste of power and money) will start later, or will require more power, with more weight on the rear wheels. unless your goal is to do just donuts, that is a good thing.
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ab7fh
Posted 2014-04-12 12:00 AM (#435634 - in reply to #433585)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?


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No going back now... I'm so glad to be finished with the bodywork. Time for new wiring and re-assembly.



(unwrapped.jpg)



(unwrapped2.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments unwrapped.jpg (137KB - 72 downloads)
Attachments unwrapped2.jpg (130KB - 68 downloads)
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60 dart
Posted 2014-04-12 1:15 PM (#435699 - in reply to #433585)
Subject: Re: Subframe connectors '60 Dart? - Beefier front shocks?



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ok , longer shocks but how you going to put them up into place without moving the lower A-frame down out of the way . oem shocks are a tight fit when changing them out
the way it is . am i missing something here -------------------------------------------later
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