|
|
   
Location: North Australia | A fellow member PM'd me about 413 engine core plugs. I found this installation pictorialand thought others might get value. This is how I did my block plugs except I used aviation permatex and a big steel punch/drift (instead of 2 hammers) and steel plugs.
Steve.
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&... |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 594
Location: Melbourne, Australia | Nice tutorial Steve... Never knew how much they grew in diameter until now... The only thing I would not do is hit one hammer with another as they are both hardened and might fragment/splinter. Thanks! Colin |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3033
Location: N.W. Fla. | The only thing I would not do is hit one hammer with another as they are both hardened and might fragment/splinter. Thanks! Colin |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3776
Location: NorCal |
I've always used the peen end against the plug but after reading the tutorial I realize it makes more sense for the final shape of the plug to be flat....lesson learned.
A copper/brass hammer against the peen end of the hammer prevents sparks/shrapnel. |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | seems to me that if one was to flatten the convex disc , most , if not all of the built up resistance would be removed . what i've used over the yrs. and was taught ions ago . was to use a driver about 1" in
dia. with a "slightly" rounded over edge from center , out . but ,,, it's just like any other procedure , depends on who's tellin the story . there was one i heard of long ago that the dimple only had to be 1/10th. the
total area of the plug . i still aint seein how that would work . since one of my freeze plugs , which i didn't install blew during break in and for piece of mind , i just ordered a set of hot heads stainless plugs . with
them the motor would have to come apart before blowing out . it's not the direction i wanted to go but it's the safest --------------------------------------------------later |
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | ......
The convex plugs fitment is a bit like reversing stretched metal.
When it's peened to pretty much near flat ( but not absolutely flat ) it's been expanded to it's maximum and that is about where you want it to be.
If it still won't hold in, either the plug is the wrong size and/or damage/rust has made the hole not able to hold the plug to an interferance fit.
If it's peened beyond flat and inwards to concave then it's starting to contract in size again and will plop back out as soon as the cooling system pressure starts to move on warm up.
........ |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3887
Location: Northen Virginia | thanks god I found this thread, unfortunately a bit late...
One of my plugs blew diving 65 miles an hour, and it is no temperature raising or oil pressure change or any other way to tell until my engine locked up, the 697 miles rebuilded 361 is now gone, 8 years of hard work to ship every part to Argentina and thousands of dollars now a complete loss.
I honestly don't have the spirit or the budget to start all over again, worst of all a good friend of mine did the job for me (while I was still in the US) and he can't find word to apologize, but he did as I instructed (just a tap with a ball hammer..), but we never flattened the plugs as we should.
Just a story to remind everybody how important this small piece of metal is....
|
|
| |
|
Location: North Australia | darn, bad luck there. My advice is to not give up on that old big block. It might be saveable.
Steve |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 537
Location: Upstate NY | Are the regular old convex plugs not good anymore? I have rebuilt several engines with them and the only issue I know of is they eventually rust out in 15 years or more, then you put a new one in. |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 8443
Location: Perth Australia | I am putting it down to evertone (me included) trying to do the right thing and useing stainless ones instead of normal steel ones.
I went through 16 of the darn things before I got them to stay in, and I am still worried about them and will probably change to those bolt in ones, just so I can drive it without wondering if the water has ran away yet
|
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | i'm really not believin the new dish plugs are made the same as back when . the new set i just got from summit only have the front half of the edge milled true "@ 1/2" . i can't ever remember the ones of days gone by
being made like that . the edges is the #1 reason i elected to go with the hot heads ones . today i completely revamped the handle on my motor leveler , thats been broke since new , 12 yrs. ago . tomorrow the new hot heads plugs go in and i'm hopin they go in without a hitch , like what happens with an uneven interior core casting -------------------------------------------------------later
Edited by 60 dart 2014-07-28 12:01 AM
|
|
| |
|
Location: North Australia | Chuck. good point about the surface in the water jacket. Pretty easy to do a test run with just the little strong-back with the screw in it. Maybe not so easy to fix it if it is ****ed on a casting dag!
I was real careful to clean the sealing surface where the disc Oring seats in the block. I quickly made up a emery polisher using an old disk plug with a T bar welded on and some sticky back emery cut to the right size. Worked Good. I also used some quality O ring grease to coat the Orings and sealing faces. Silicone grease will do.
Should be easy as you have the donk out of the car.
Let us know how you go.
Steve. |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | what i was going to do and did one , was work down the back edge of a new freeze plug using a piece of 3/8 rubber tubing super glued to center of convex side of the plug and fine wet sandpaper , on a flat surface
to allow the dressing of the inside edge of the plug . it took about 3 minutes to massage it down but longer waiting for the super glue to cure . one thing i did notice about the core hole the plug blew out of . it looks
like the casting was a little high on the bottom side , so when the core hole was machined , it looks like the drill machine was started high on that side and slid into place to get into a better position to get the core hole
drilled but ,,,,,,, in return it made that side of the hole less deep to accept the freeze plug . so in reality that side of the plug hole is maybe just at or a little below the thickness of the freeze plug , causing the plug not
to be able to tighten up properly on that side and maybe not at fault is my motor builder . i didn't get to get to the motor today as a few things came up . just aint in the mood now to mess with it ----------------------------later |
|
| |
|
Location: North Australia | I think I got ya. With the HHH style plugs. Clean sealing surfaces in the block, and good Oring lube to allow the rubber rings to form into the metal is a great start, good never-seize on the screws to allow disassembly later if you need to is good practice.
Steve.
|
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 8443
Location: Perth Australia | Those HHH plugs are all stainless arnt they?
I have had problems with stainless bolts and nut binding (and breaking) when you undo them
Steves anti seize comment made me think of it because antisieze wont stop it, its just that the stainless is not as hard as the steel ones and the thread warps a bit when its tightened (I think)
Steel nut on stainless is fine though?
But then again, once there in and good, they probably wont need to come out again
|
|
| |
|
Location: North Australia | Yep stainless screws/bolts are prone to galling, and the threads picking up. Nickel based never-seize is almost mandatory if you want to tighten and undo multi times. On aircraft grade bolts, the manufacturers apply a silver (the element) electroplated threads to minimise galling.
Steve. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3887
Location: Northen Virginia | Sorry to be so late, just back in to the US. this is what I could find about the expansion of the plug when is almost flat... It is no way it is going pop out.
 (plugs.jpg)
Attachments
----------------
 plugs.jpg (103KB - 218 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3887
Location: Northen Virginia | Going back to Argentina in a couple of weeks to face the music with my 1961 Newport 361CID, over theses moths I found a disc type plugs but with some extra edge to add more strength to the grabbing forces.
I also checked the SS from hot hemi heads, they are definitely priced and I'm not sure how long the O-ring is going to last?, we all know rubber is not forever.
Also the recommended Permatex 80019 Aviation Form-A-Gasket No. 3 Sealant will not dry, so not sure how it could perform good sealant?
Thanks for any input..
 ($_57 (2).JPG)
Attachments
----------------
$_57 (2).JPG (10KB - 198 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3887
Location: Northen Virginia | Memory of the sad day when the Newport broke down on the side of the road..
 (IMAG1404b.jpg)
 (IMAG1406b.jpg)
Attachments
----------------
IMAG1404b.jpg (56KB - 212 downloads)
IMAG1406b.jpg (67KB - 224 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | if i ever do the dish type again , they'll have J-B weld front and back but super clean first . now you'll ask how will i remove the J-B weld if there is a next time . a torch will heat it enough
to allow a simple scraping to remove it without having to go real hot with most of it just burnin away as you heat . maybe a 0000 brazing tip --------------------------------------------later |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1231
Location: York County, PA | This is a very interesting thread and I learned a lot, thank you to you all. I have to put a plug in the 360 engine in one of my stepsides, I have to drop the tranny down to do it. May never happen on my watch. Chuck, you are right about the JB Weld.
Catch ya later. |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 6498
Location: Newark, Texas (Fort Worth) | Is this pricey or normal?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Core-Plugs-for-1955-1959-Plymouth-Do...
Marc. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3887
Location: Northen Virginia | Thanks a lot guys, tomorrow my friend is taking the engine apart to determine how much damage was done to the engine... Marc, price seems ok
|
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 6498
Location: Newark, Texas (Fort Worth) | He quotes o use steel only because brass will corrode faster. Marc.
Set of OE-style steel convex core (or freeze) plugs for all 1955-59 Plymouth - Dodge - DeSoto - Chrysler - Imperial
Frequently we are asked if we can supply these plugs in brass. The answer is NO. Because the engine block is made of a ferrous metal (iron), everything in contact with the iron block and the coolant water should also be made of an iron-based metal. If you remenber your high school chemistry class, you leanred that if you immerse two dis-similar metals (iron and brass) in an electrolyte (the coolant water), you will have created a galvanic battery cell that will rapidly erode the least "noble" metal part (your engine bock). You don't want that! Making sure that any metal parts used in the cooling passages are made of a ferrous (iron-based) metal will keep the erosion to a minimum. There are mechanics that will try to install brass core plugs into your engine's water jacket thinking that they are doing you a favor. Don't let them. Specify engine type (Hemi V8 - Poly V8 - Wedge V8 - Flat Head Six) when ordering |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 8443
Location: Perth Australia | The way he explains it makes perfect sense to me
I would use brass or stainless all the time, maybe I am not being that clever doing that
Interesting
|
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 148
Location: Mandurah, Western Australia | Thanks for the tute Steve, I will try that next time. I've done core plugs in a few motors with no problems until the last one, which was a rebuild of my '29 after the oil pump shaft sheared and destroyed the block. I used Permatex aviation gasket cement and tapped the plugs in but was a bit soft due to fear of cracking the water jacket. The gasket cement washed out and several plugs leaked (had the same problem with head studs leaking). Luckily I could get at them ok so put them back with silicone sealant and a hefty thumping, no problems since.
On brass versus stainless versus steel core plugs, I have a preference for brass with sealant. You can be pretty sure of quality and they dont have to be hit so hard. The sealant fills crevices between plug and block where galvanic corrosion can breed. With a good radiator inhibitor changed every two years you shouldnt have any problems. I would be wary of stainless as there are many grades of stainless and the stuff from China is crap, just look at the stainless tools they sell in hardware stores, they are anything but. Steel plugs are cheap, last for years, but always end up rusting out.
Cast iron, steel, brass and stainless are all different metals and galvanic corrosion can occur with all combinations, with cast iron the least noble and most likely to be attacked. Steel is the closest match. On older blocks it is important to use a sealant to minimise crevices where the inhibitor wont reach.
On the subject of stainless nuts and bolts, at a chemical palnt where I worked they used moly grease to prevent galling (nut and bolt weld together) and I've found it works. A friend had stainless wheel studs and nuts made at work (why? - they were free), put them on with a touch of ordinary grease, but found it was a use once, throwaway solution! |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3887
Location: Northen Virginia | The Galvanic reaction make a lot of sense, until you figure that the OEM Mopar supplied plugs for newer cast iron engines is brass. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1493
Location: Jamaica Plain, MA | Antifreeze is an electrolyte. Iron in our world is also is a temporal material, as it is inclined to oxidize-- so chemical decay is kind of a silly concern.
I actually like the rubber compression freeze plugs because they are easy to install in a jam. They do however limit some water-flow.
One small question, fellow engineers, is why in the first link in this article-- the tech article, are the plugs installed backwards? This is about small displacement engines. Why would we stray from basic MoPar engineering? The flange goes outward. They are supposed to be made out out of brass, but steel or brass doesn't matter much, because both are going to eventually fail like everything else if put to a really long test. Brass is softer and seals better. JB Weld or something of the ilk that will crack and is not advisable. A little Indian Head or Permatex will help those guys set in and keep tight. FL engines were equipped with brass freeze plugs with no sealant. The most important thing, here, in my opinion, is have a decent temperature gauge on your car, and if you're really vigilant, check your freeze plugs every few months. They usually weep coolant before the pop out. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3887
Location: Northen Virginia | They are a lot of opinions about this subjects, at the end you have to collect them all and make a decision.
Vincent a bit of a warning with my experience, when I was driving 65 m/h and the plug popped out, the temperature actually went down just a little bit and I was using modern auxiliary temperature gauge, The original gauges will never notice such a small temperature difference. The sensor was picking the empty water pump temperature where the sensor is located, which seems normal...Only the steam on the back was my warning... |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1740
Location: Alaska | Antifreeze has corrosion inhibitors and if changed on a regular basis will prevent or slow down corrosion. If you are worried about brass corroding, install a couple of zinc plugs in place of the drain plugs and use your brass block plugs., I like to use Permatex when installing mine. BTW, they make an anti-sieze that is for use with stainless steel and really helps in removal.
Edited by 58coupe 2015-05-18 9:28 AM
|
|
| |
convex core plug install
