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58 savoy
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stormjaer
Posted 2014-07-27 6:49 AM (#450579)
Subject: 58 savoy


Member

Posts: 17

Hi everyone.

I have just joined the network .

I am from South Africa and have a 58 Savoy that i am getting ready to restore.

Any info regarding the car would be greatly appreciated eg size of the motor design etc.

On the engine there is a nr LP8-155966 ( the nr is on the right bank if you stand in front of the car)

And the vin nr is LP2-69261 my research have narrowed it down to either a 318 or 350?
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mstrug
Posted 2014-07-27 11:21 AM (#450601 - in reply to #450579)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy



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here is a Poly 318



(1958poly.jpg)



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Attachments 1958poly.jpg (97KB - 2166 downloads)
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mstrug
Posted 2014-07-27 11:24 AM (#450602 - in reply to #450579)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5695
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Location: Newark, Texas (Fort Worth)
here is a 1958 350:



(1958350goldencommando.jpg)



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Attachments 1958350goldencommando.jpg (15KB - 222 downloads)
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christine-lover
Posted 2014-07-27 12:23 PM (#450606 - in reply to #450601)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy



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Location: Sept. 1958
mstrug - 2014-07-27 11:21 AM

here is a Poly 318


That's not a 318 Poly.
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stormjaer
Posted 2014-07-28 8:03 AM (#450723 - in reply to #450579)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy


Member

Posts: 17

Thank you guys it looks like the 350 golden commando, but i will upload a picture
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stormjaer
Posted 2014-07-28 11:52 AM (#450738 - in reply to #450579)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy


Member

Posts: 17

how do i upload a photo?
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goldfin58
Posted 2014-07-28 4:01 PM (#450757 - in reply to #450579)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy


Regular

Posts: 79
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Location: Maryland
Your vin decodes like this: L =1958, P = Plymouth, 2 =V-8 engine, 69261 is the consecutive serial number. I believe they started the numbers at 1001. It is a Detroit built car.
The picture of the 318 that Mstrug posted is not a 318 Poly, looks like a 57-58 Dodge 325 Poly. The picture looks familiar as I believe that engine was in a 58 Fury that was for sale in Michigan several years ago.
Your engine number LP8-155966 I believe this is a 1958 Plymouth 318. L = 1958, P =PLYMOUTH and the 8 is for 318. If your number is on the right bank standing in front the car as you state that is where it should be on those engines. Also if your distributor is in the rear of the engine this is also an indication it is a 318 not the 350. The 350 distributor is in the front of the engine at an angle. If you are standing front of the car facing the engine the distributor is on the left side and just in front and below the distributor there is a flat boss where L-350 and the serial number of the engine is stamped.
Hope this helps.
Michael
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mstrug
Posted 2014-07-28 6:19 PM (#450784 - in reply to #450579)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy



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How about this one:
It is a 301 in a 1957 Plymouth.


Edited by mstrug 2014-07-28 6:25 PM




(1957fromjohnBigM45JPG.JPG)



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Attachments 1957fromjohnBigM45JPG.JPG (126KB - 172 downloads)
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stormjaer
Posted 2014-08-05 10:17 AM (#451697 - in reply to #450579)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy


Member

Posts: 17

thank you Micheal from what you are saying it seems to be a 318, since the distributor sits at the back. i have taken photos and as soon as i work out how to upload them i will
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stormjaer
Posted 2014-08-05 10:18 AM (#451698 - in reply to #450579)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy


Member

Posts: 17

or maby even a 301. it looks alot like the pic above
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mstrug
Posted 2014-08-05 12:47 PM (#451705 - in reply to #450579)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy



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Location: Newark, Texas (Fort Worth)
Allpar News


Mopar A Engines

By the Allpar staff. Thanks to Shannon Mafodda, Bill Watson, Joshua Skinner, Carl Payne, Dan Stern, Steven Havens, Jim Forbes, and Peter Duncan.

Red Ram engine

The A engine family was a modern, efficient, and durable design produced from 1956 through 1966; the LA series of V8 engines was based on a lightweight casting of the A engines, appearing in 1964. The A and LA blocks are similarly sized and hard to tell apart from the outside, but the A's polyspherical heads were considerably larger than the LA's heads.

Willem Weertman, the legendary engine designer, started his Chrysler engines career working on the A-type V8s at the then-state-of-the-art Mound Road plant.


Engine

Years (USA)*

Bore

Stroke


277

1956

3.75

3.12


301

1957

3.91

3.12


303

1956-57

3.81

3.31


313

1957-64

3.88

3.31


326

1959 (Dodge)

3.95

3.31


318

1957-67

3.91

3.31


The A engines shared little with the Hemi-based Poly V8s; since Plymouth’s sales were far larger than Dodge or Chrysler, and pricing was lower, the A-type V8 engines needed to be made far more quickly at the new Mound Road engine plant. That was a strong influence on its design.

The “single shaft” (Hemi-based) Poly can be identified by its separate valley cover underneath the intake manifold; Randy Hicks wrote that the cylinder heads and intake manifolds were interchangeable with any Hemi engines that had the same deck height. A-series Poly engines did not have the separate valley cover underneath the intake manifold, since the intake itself performed this function. Both series of Poly engines — A-based and Hemi-based — were similar in appearance, with scalloped valve covers and a rear-mounted distributor, despite being from completely different engine families.

valvesThe A engines went under trade names including Red Ram. It was an overhead valve design with dome-shaped heads. Dodge wrote, “So durable are they that the standard 25,000­ mile laboratory tests for wear had to be changed to 50,000-mile and 100,000-mile checks-because no discernible wear showed up until long past the 25,000-mile figure.”

The A-engines slowly replaced the polyspherical-head (“single-rocker”) V8 engines: 277, 301, 331, and 354. A key difference between the A engines and the older poly engines — essentially, Hemi engines with modified combustion chambers and single rocker arms — was in the ease of manufacturing.

While Dodge, DeSoto, and Chrysler had relatively small sales numbers and could live with the low pace of building the poly V8s, Plymouth’s high production required something cheaper and faster to build. The A engines fulfilled that function, with little, if any, performance penalty. Any loss in performance could be made up in cubic inches, and the A engines ran larger than most of the polys.

cutaway

1957 Plymouth Figures
277

301

318

Gross Horsepower
197@4,400

215@4,400

n/l

Torque (lb-ft)
270@2,400

285@2,800

n/l

Compression
125-165 psi

Bore x Stroke
3.75 x 3.125

3 29/32 x 3.125

3 29/32 x 3 5/16

Compression
8:1

8.5:1

9.25:1

Firing Order
1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2


Bill Watson noted that the LA-based 273 used the poly (A) 318 crankshaft, bearings, bearing caps, vibration damper, and conecting rods. The 273 and 318 both had a 3.31" stroke. Pistons were different, though, as the bores were different while camshafts could not be shared due to the different valve arrangements. The sharing of parts was one of the things Chrysler bragged about when the 273 was introduced, though little on the 273 was shared with the earlier 277/301 A-engines.

1956 Plymouth Savoy

1962 318 figures
318 truck

318 2-barrel

318 4-barrel

Gross Horsepower
200, 202

230@4,400

260@4,400

Torque (lb-ft)
286/288@2,400





Compression


9.0

9.0


Canadian notes (Bill Watson)

318 cubic inch A-engineThe 303 was introduced in Canada before the U.S. Plymouth Fury came on the market. It was used in the Canadian-built 1956 Dodge Custom Royal (2-bbl) and 1956 Chrysler Windsor (4-bbl). In 1957 is was used as the standard V8 in the 118" wheelbase Plymouth and Dodge models.

The 313 V8 appeared in 1957 in the Canadian Custom Royal. For 1958, the 313 became the standard V8 for the 118" wheelbase Plymouth and Dodge models. It was available in Plymouth and Dodge models through 1964, and was replaced by the 318 for 1965. The poly 318 was last used in Canadian production on the 1967 models.

The Canadian 1958 Dodge Custom Royal used the poly version of the 354, shared with the Canadian-built DeSoto Firedome and Chrysler Windsor. Chrysler of Canada did not start using the B block V8 until 1959.

The A engines: 277, 301, 303, 318, 326

(Horsepower figures are gross until 1971.)

Bill Watson noted:


The poly head first appeared in 1956, with Plymouth using a 241 cid version and Dodge using a larger-bored version with 270 cid. In mid-year Plymouth increased the bore of the 241 to 3.56" for 260 cid. Plymouth used the 270 with poly heads in 1956, but replaced it with a new 277 engine, the first A block. It shared little with the Dodge V8 and came only as a poly. The early hemi heads will not fit on the A block.

So, the 303-cid V8 was used, based on the 277 V8 block, with the 3.75" bore replaced by a 3.81" bore. The adoption of the 277 size over the 270 reduced costs - they could share crankshafts and piston rods.

Chrysler also offered a poly head engine in 1955 on the Windsor, using a small bore version of the 331 (3.63" vs 3.81") for 300 cid. The Windsor never came with a hemi engine, using poly heads through 1958.

The A engine was built through 1967, actually, with 1966 being the last year in the U.S. and 1967 in Canada. The US-built 1967 LA 318 has engine number prefix C318 while the Canadian 1967 poly A 318 has engine prefix CC318. (The "C" stands for the 1967 model year while the second "C" for the poly stands for Canada)

1960 318
vs GM and Ford
Ford 292

Dodge Red Ram 318

Chevrolet 283


185 hp

230 hp

170 hp


292 lb-ft

340 lb-ft

275 lb-ft


Joshua Skinner wrote:


In 1957, the 277 grew to 301 ci with a 3.91" bore and the same 3.12" stroke. Also available beginning in 1957 was 3.91" bore and 3.31" stroke engine netting 318ci. The hottest version of the early A engine was the 1957 Fury 318 with dual quads producing 290 horsepower, the same rating as a 340 6-pack. The lesser versions were rated at 230 hp (318 2v) and 260 hp (318 4v, made from 1958 to 1962). The 1959 Dodge "Red Ram" engine was part of the A family (325 or 326 cid).

hyfire v8

Bill Watson noted:


Chrysler produced three different hemis during the 1950s, with different blocks for Dodge, DeSoto, and Chrysler. DeSoto never built a poly engine, although they did use the A-block poly in the export DeSoto Diplomat, the Dodge-based poly in the 1957 DeSoto Firesweep and Chrysler's 354 poly in the Canadian-built 1958 DeSoto Firedome.

1960 Dodge Figures
277

301

318

Gross Horsepower
197@4,400

215@4,400

230

Torque (lb-ft)
270@2,400

285@2,800

340

Compression
125-165 psi

Bore x Stroke
3.75 x 3.125

3 29/32 x 3.125

3 29/32 x 3 5/16

Compression
8:1

8.5:1

9.25:1

Firing Order
1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2


(Drew Beck reminded us of the 303 V8 used only in the 1956 Plymouth Fury, 240 hp with a four barrel carb; and the Dodge-only 1959 326 V8.)

In 1960, the 318 cubic inch Red Ram V8 produced 230 gross hp at 4,440 rpm, and 340 lb-ft of torque at 2,400 rpm, fed by a two-barrel carb and using a 9:1 compression ratio.

valvesNicholas Challacombe wrote:


I have a 1962 Bristol 407 with an A type engine of 313cu inches or 5130 cc. It has a four barrel Carter carb 3131s and the engine bore is stated in the work shop manual as 3.875/3.877 inch. These engines came from Canada. Apparently the 318 is a 313 bored out by 30 thou.

All Bristol 407s have the 313 as did all 408s except for the last 18 which had 318. All the Bristol 313s had a perfomance pack and produced 250 hp.

(The photo at the start of this section is the 313, rated at 220 horsepower (gross) in Australian Royals.)

The A-engines were supplanted by the closely related, but lighter, LA V8 engines. Bore center sizes and bore lengths on the 318 A-series and LA-series engines were identical, but the A-engine was 55 pounds heavier.

The most clearly visible differences is in the heads: the LA engines used wedge heads, while the A-engines used much wider, heavier polyspherical heads. Willem Weertman said,


I was in the production plant when we were first building the A engine series and then I had been transferred to engineering when we were building the LA engine series. I was in charge of design for the LA engine conversion.

The biggest difference between the LA and A engines is really the valve arrangement. We went from a skew valve type of arrangement on the A-engine which had the exhaust valve parallel to the bore, and the intake valve tipped toward the intake manifold giving what has been described as a poly-spherical chamber. That was the A engine.

When it came to the LA engine we made all the valves tipped to the intake manifold and inline as viewed from the front of the engine giving it a wedge shaped combustion chamber. The reason we went to such a change, which triggered totally new cylinder heads and manifolds for the engine was that the engine was designed to go into the Valiant car. The Valiant car was originally not designed to take a V-8 engine. So we were really limited in every which way about getting the engine in place and the older A engine was simply far too wide at the cylinder heads in order to go into the car. So we put the wedge head engine, cylinder heads on top of the A engine and that was what we needed to do in order to get that engine into the Valiant.


In the process we also wanted to take a lot of weight out because the Valiant, I guess the Dart was the companion car of Dodge, wanted to have engines much lighter than what a conventional A engine would be. So we took as much as we could out of the cylinder heads and the intake manifold and the cylinder block which is of course the largest and heaviest piece of an engine. That triggered a new casting process for the cylinder block that allowed us to make all the walls thinner and we took a lot of the weight out of the block.

As for the performance drop in going to a wedge head, Pete Hagenbuch noted that there wasn’t one:


The performance improved by getting rid of the silly polysphere. A wedge chamber does have some advantages. One of the advantages is that you can build in a lot of what we call squish, where the chamber is just part of the cylinder head surface and the piston have a flat area that matches up with it, because squish is why you can run 12 to 1 on a wedge head because without squish you would have to run 9 to 1. It gets the charge moving and mixed, you know moving through the chamber at high velocity which means the flame travel is fast and there isn’t anything left to burn by the time it gets to top dead center where you expect the detonation. Anything that reduces detonation also helps reduce pre-ignition which is catastrophic.

Detonation can lead to pre-ignition because of the rise in temperature. If you are in more or less constant detonation then sooner or later you going to hole a piston, its going to become pre-ignition which means it starts burning the minute the intake valve opens which means that the full force of the combustion is working against the piston going up and things get really hot in there, and aluminum melts at around 1200°.

Also see
•Poly-head engines: 277, 301, 331, 354
•The men behind the A-engines: Willem Weertman | Pete Hagenbuch
•The successors: LA engines


Distributor for 1958 Red Ram V8 (318)

Model IBP-4002
Rotation Clockwise
Advance Control Automatic
Point Gap .015 to .018"
Breaker Arm Spring Tension 17 to 20
Contact Dwell (degrees) 29 to 32 deg

Automatic Advance curve (Distributor speed)
290 to 410 0 Deg
410 0 to 2 Deg
650 4 to 6 Deg
1650 8 to 10 Deg

Vacuum Advance Curve: Manifold vacuum in inches of mercury
6.1 to 7.3 0 Deg
10 4.6 to 6.6 Deg
14 10 to 12 deg
Condenser Capacity (Microfarads) .25 to .285
Timing Mark location (marks 2 deg apart) Fan Drive Pulley
Engine Idle Speed (RPM) 475 to 500
Firing Order 1-8-4-3-6-5-7- 2.




Edited by mstrug 2014-08-05 12:49 PM
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d500neil
Posted 2014-08-05 7:13 PM (#451746 - in reply to #451705)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

Posts: 19171
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Location: bishop, ca
That's a 1957 Dodge 325 c.i. Polyspherical-head engine, above.
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stormjaer
Posted 2014-08-06 3:07 AM (#451797 - in reply to #450579)
Subject: RE: 58 savoy


Member

Posts: 17

finally ready to upload...yippy



(savoy 58 engine.jpg)



(Savoy 58 2.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments savoy 58 engine.jpg (68KB - 409 downloads)
Attachments Savoy 58 2.jpg (74KB - 197 downloads)
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stormjaer
Posted 2014-08-06 3:18 AM (#451799 - in reply to #450579)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy


Member

Posts: 17

there it is in all its soon to be glory. it looks like all is there except for the radiator and the starter. i took off the distributor but it sits in the back on the right bank. Hopefully i can now find out what motor it is so i can get starter and parts etc.
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stormjaer
Posted 2014-08-06 3:21 AM (#451800 - in reply to #450579)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy


Member

Posts: 17

it looks alot like the 57 301 but its definitely a 58 car
since its got the 58 tail lights and the dual headlights with the parking lights above and between the lights
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58coupe
Posted 2014-08-06 10:20 AM (#451813 - in reply to #450579)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy



Expert

Posts: 1349
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Location: Alaska
Since it is a 58 Plymouth it should have the 318 in it if U S built, but if it is an export model I am not as sure. It is for sure an A engine poly. ( 277, 301, 318 family).
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Chrycoman
Posted 2014-08-06 10:28 PM (#451884 - in reply to #451813)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy



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58coupe - 2014-08-06 10:20 AM

Since it is a 58 Plymouth it should have the 318 in it if U S built, but if it is an export model I am not as sure. It is for sure an A engine poly. ( 277, 301, 318 family).


US-built Plymouths came with a 318 poly if it has an A block engine, regardless of destination. That also includes export DeSoto Diplomat and Dodge Kinsgway as well Plymouth Belvedere and Dodge Mayfair convertibles for Canada.

If it was built in Canada it had a 313 V8 poly.

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goldfin58
Posted 2014-08-10 1:14 PM (#452318 - in reply to #450579)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy


Regular

Posts: 79
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Location: Maryland
Stormjaer,
I double checked on your information on the engine number and if your wrote the number down correctly according to my Plymouth technical product information bulletin dated Dec. 17, 1957 you have a 1958 318 that was built at the Mound Road plant. The 318 started with the LP-8 and the consecutive serial number started with 1001. The body serial number did start at 1001 as well as I stated earlier.

The 301, 313 and 318 engines all looked identical in appearance so just looks alone wont tell you exactly which one it is.

I see it is a right hand drive car since it has the brake booster on the right side and is also a heater delete car. This is how the Australian built 58 4door hardtop Belvederes were and I believe they used the 313 V8. The car assemblies were crated in Canada and shipped to Australia for final assembly. They used the 313 Canadian Poly engines. Possibly the South African bound Plymouths were the same. The Austrailians also used the Dodge dash board in the Plymouth as well. Does yours have the Dodge dash in it?

I don't have any serial number information on the Canadian built or exported cars so not sure if they did use the same LP-8 for the 313 engines or not. I would think it would be different since it is a different engine.

Michael
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stormjaer
Posted 2014-08-20 7:33 AM (#453646 - in reply to #450579)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy


Member

Posts: 17

thanks Michael i will take a photo of the dash and post i dont know if its a dodge dash or not
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stormjaer
Posted 2014-08-20 7:41 AM (#453647 - in reply to #450579)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy


Member

Posts: 17

excuse my ignorance but what exactly is a heater delete car? does that mean it didnt come out with a heater?
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Imp58Alpes
Posted 2014-08-20 8:10 AM (#453649 - in reply to #453647)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy



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Location: Grenoble - France
stormjaer - 2014-08-20 1:41 PM

excuse my ignorance but what exactly is a heater delete car? does that mean it didnt come out with a heater?

This is correct. Heater, even on the high-end Imperials, was an option.
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d500neil
Posted 2014-08-20 4:45 PM (#453705 - in reply to #453649)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

Posts: 19171
500050005000200020001002525
Location: bishop, ca
Wouldn't that be an interesting statistic; what % of IMP's, over the years, got no heaters installed in them?

Probably, not many in Canada; what about Tex/Mex?


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ttotired
Posted 2014-08-20 7:23 PM (#453726 - in reply to #450579)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy



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Location: Perth Australia
It may still have a heater

On the Aussie ones R/H/D, they used the same heater that was used in the trucks of the day

Its basically a box, but everything is cable operated except for the cowl vent flap

The firewall area where the heater in the US cars is, has a plate welded into it that goes under the cowl vent panel, which makes cleaning it out almost impossible

There are other things that were modified in the firewall area to handle the brake and steering column re location

While I was doing the panel work on my dodge. I found it interesting finding the differences between the Aussie and US dodges (and looking at the firewall of the plymouth)

It would have been smart (thats why it didnt happen) for me to make a paper template of the firewall before I put it all back in

I would love to see Chrysler Australia production figures, but I dont think they exist anymore

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stormjaer
Posted 2014-08-29 7:24 AM (#454632 - in reply to #450579)
Subject: RE: 58 savoy


Member

Posts: 17

the dashboard



(Plymouth dash.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments Plymouth dash.jpg (191KB - 264 downloads)
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ttotired
Posted 2014-08-29 7:01 PM (#454676 - in reply to #450579)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy



Expert 5K+

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Location: Perth Australia
Dodge dash, no heater (unless it got the small demist one like what was used on the gm and fords here in the day)

Nice web where the speedo is supposed to be

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58coupe
Posted 2014-08-29 8:16 PM (#454685 - in reply to #450579)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy



Expert

Posts: 1349
100010010010025
Location: Alaska
Interesting, a Dodge dash but a Plymouth steering wheel.
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Chrycoman
Posted 2014-08-29 10:34 PM (#454693 - in reply to #454685)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy



Expert

Posts: 1751
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Location: Vancouver, BC

The serial number and engine number given were for a Detroit-built Plymouth. Thus the engine is a 318 V8.

A Plymouth built in Canada would have a serial number of LP2W-1001 and up.

The engine number prefix for a Canadian 1958 313 V8 would be "LV" and have a "C" suffix. The 251-cid flathead six in Canadian 1958 Plymouths and Dodges had a prefix of "L" and a "C" suffix.

Actually, there was no such thing as a "heater delete" Chrysler Corp. car before 1965. Heaters were optional and if you did not check the box for a heater, you did not get one, and you cannot delete something that is not there.

Starting in 1965 heaters were standard and this time you could check a box and get no heater. And that was "heater delete".

In the case of the RHD Plymouths, there was no room for a heater on the right side of the car and instead of spending big bucks tooling up for a heater to be mounted on the left side of the firewall, they simply offered the truck recirculating heater, similar to what cars used in the 1940's. Winters are much milder in Australia, for example. than in Western Canada with its winter days of -40 degrees.

The Dodge instrument cluster was used on all RHD Plymouth, Dodge Kingsway and DeSoto Diplomat models, regardless of whether they were built in Detroit or Windsor. All 1958 and 1959 Plymouths exported to Australia were built in Detroit.
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ttotired
Posted 2014-08-30 5:08 AM (#454708 - in reply to #450579)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy



Expert 5K+

Posts: 8290
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Location: Perth Australia
Heater from mine





(Dash removal 002s.JPG)



(Engine 2613 0011s.JPG)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments Dash removal 002s.JPG (84KB - 199 downloads)
Attachments Engine 2613 0011s.JPG (112KB - 686 downloads)
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stormjaer
Posted 2014-09-07 7:43 AM (#455468 - in reply to #450579)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy


Member

Posts: 17

thank you for all the info yes i am trying to get a speedo since mine was shot to pieces i have some of it at least. mopar spares/cars are scarcer then an honest politician here in the south of africa. after some extensive search i have managed to find a extra 318 but unfortunately not the car that once accompanied it
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philcojohn
Posted 2019-02-17 11:20 AM (#578330 - in reply to #450579)
Subject: Re: 58 savoy


Member

Posts: 18

some errors above i think, in long post . 315, 325 Dodge 56-58 are NOT A engine derived. They have a separate cover over valley,are derived from 241,270 hemi (and poly) design, but with raised block. The way to tell from A is intake manifold does not close valley.. .These early engines in fact had what edelbrock correctly touts as the air gap mainifold design .Go Burt Boukamp!
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