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Goodbye 440....hello A block 318
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fenix
Posted 2015-04-28 10:28 PM (#476898 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318



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tell'em to send ya the right rad hose.
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ruchaven
Posted 2015-05-03 3:08 PM (#477249 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318


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Hey Gordy; who welded your motor mounts on? I'm not sure if it will pass inspection.

Catch ya later.
Harry
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ruchaven
Posted 2015-05-03 3:11 PM (#477250 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318


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Your doing a fantastic job on your project.

Catch ya later.
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ruchaven
Posted 2015-05-06 12:24 PM (#477472 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318


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When your rebuilder did your engine, was he really able to maintain the Poly head configuration?. I talked to a mechanic who said if you changed the pistons, it would no longer be a poly engine. I don't know, that's why I'm asking.

Catch ya later.
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58coupe
Posted 2015-05-06 4:15 PM (#477485 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318



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Whoever this "mechanic" is, he doesn't know what he is talking about. The poly engines are named that for their polyspherical shaped combustion chamber which has little to do with the pistons. The pistons in this 318 are flat top with 2 valve reliefs. Actually, Chrysler called these engines single rocker shaft as opposed to double rocker shaft. (hemi) Hope I'm not being too critical but there seems to be a lot of misinformation about these Forward Looks.
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sconut1
Posted 2015-05-07 9:14 PM (#477642 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318


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I assume the comments are regarding my flexible rad hose? LOL. I don't like it either. This was the only thing Rock Auto listed for my car. I did deviate from the original water outlet. I can't get the right outlet, so I had to use one from a '59. That might complicate things for getting the correct hose. The only hose that Rock Auto had available was the one I used. Does anyone know where I can get the right hose and water outlet? The two I have are in horrible condition and I can't use either of them.
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sconut1
Posted 2015-05-07 9:16 PM (#477643 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318


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On the topic of hoses, does anyone make the hose that goes from the water pump to the intake manifold? I'd prefer a molded hose here... using regular heater hose isn't going to work well for me as the angle is pretty acute.
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sconut1
Posted 2015-05-07 9:36 PM (#477645 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318


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Harry:

Thanks for your comments! Always appreciated and looking forward to seeing you this summer! I think 58 coupe is correct; the poly configuration is based on head design, and has little to do with the pistons. I have what should be correct (thought not Mopar NOS) pistons in this engine. The pistons are for a "regular" 58 318 Poly, but they are not the slightly taller Fury pistons. Some have romanticized the idea of domed pistons, but after having a look at the Fury Restorer's guide, I think the idea of domed pistons was more prevalent in Plymouth's marketing department than in reality. I didn't even bother looking for a set of the "tall" Fury pistons as I assumed that they'd be either unobtainum or super-expensive. I did however, send the cam to Chris Nielson, who ground my cam to his special "Fury" specs, so the engine is as Fury as I could get it while being reasonable. Neil is quite familiar with the taller piston, so I hope he'll comment on this post.

Overall, and I have to apologize for not keeping the photos as current as I'd like to, the car is very close to start up. It will have its hood, and all its fenders on this weekend, and I hope to start it for the first time on Saturday! I should mention I had to go forty over on this engine, so I'm sure that any piston differences will be offset by a few extra cubic inches! I was also quite pleased to find out that Hagerty likes what I'm doing too. I'm supposed to send in photos and promptly enjoy a 40% discount now that the car is no longer considered "modified".
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d500neil
Posted 2015-05-08 2:58 AM (#477667 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

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I'm a certified Dodge Boy, but, it it is my understanding that the higher c.r. of the Furys and the D500's was due to
their having physically longer/taller pistons; and, that those pistons are not "domed", but, rather, merely
taller flat-topped pieces.

The 9.25:1 Dodge pistons have valve reliefs in their tops; the 8.50:1 pistons are shorter, and have (-need) no valve
reliefs on their piston tops.



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miquelonbrad
Posted 2015-05-19 9:53 PM (#478865 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318



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The Chrysler 354 poly pistons are the same way. The 1958 engine is identical to the '57, but has higher output, due to the taller pistons. There isn't a whole lot of difference, but you can see it, comparing them side to side.
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mstrug
Posted 2015-05-20 3:07 AM (#478887 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318



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Rock auto has molded bypass hoses:






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Edited by mstrug 2015-05-20 3:10 AM
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sconut1
Posted 2015-06-01 9:50 PM (#480116 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318


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The finish line....well, almost.

I'll start off with a few photos.....



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sconut1
Posted 2015-06-01 10:22 PM (#480119 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318


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There are two things keeping me from completion. As it turns out, I can't use the '58 (for lack of a better term), downshift rod. The "second generation" (my own words), A-488 has quite different downshift rod that the air cooled type, so I had to order one from John Fowlie. It's on the way as I type. Once I install this, I can finish the throttle linkage rod, and I have a functioning gas pedal.

My next issue is the transmission itself. It's taken to barfing fluid out the fill tube. I'd posted something regarding this in the transmission section awhile ago. It's hopefully one of two issues: 1) The vent on the transmission extension is plugged or the gasket used does not have the hole in it for the vent. Interstingly enough, I have a rebuild kit in my possession the Miquelon Brad supplied me and the gasket for the transmission extension in this kit does not have the necessary hole for the breather vent. 2) Being that this transmission is liquid cooled, I felt I should add an external transmission cooler. This didn't exactly fit in with my totally un-modded plans. However, I don't see what else I can do. This transmission was built to be liquid cooled and I didn't think it was a good idea to try running it without any external cooling despite the fact that the car does have the air cooled bell housing and fins on the torque converter. I may have not added this correctly... I might have a pipe with an overly acute bend.... I don't know. Once I have the throttle linkage/shift-down installed, I'll have the car towed to a transmission shop and get them to work out this little issue. I hope it won't be a big deal.... there's just not a lot of point in me continuing to diagnose automatic transmission issues with having limited knowledge about how automatic transmissions work.

That's it.... correct that little kink in the heater line as you can see from one of the pictures, clip back some slightly long wires going to the voltage regulator, install the grill and lower facia and I'm done! Well, done for now.....

The car runs like a top. I couldn't believe how well it started and idled.... and this is before mixture adjustments and timing adjustments! The generator outputs nicely too. My volt meter reads 14.0 volts at idle with no accessories on. Although I'm reasonably happy with my underhood wiring (I still have some "tidy-up" to do with that), the wiring under the dash still isn't wonderful. I'm thinking next year, I'll deal with that and get a whole harness from Gregg Legatt. It's interesting though.... with the new underhood wiring, my turn signals and marker lights are quite a bit brighter than they used to be, and the old setup used an alternator! I think I've probably replaced some old tired wiring and corrected a few grounding issues.

I'm really looking forward (pardon the pun) to getting this car out to the first show of the year!

Edited by sconut1 2015-06-01 10:37 PM
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2015-06-02 12:14 AM (#480125 - in reply to #478865)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318


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miquelonbrad - 2015-05-19 9:53 PM

The Chrysler 354 poly pistons are the same way. The 1958 engine is identical to the '57, but has higher output, due to the taller pistons. There isn't a whole lot of difference, but you can see it, comparing them side to side.


Here are pics of the factory domed Pistons with valve reliefs cut into them. 58 CDN Dodge Custom Royal. 354 poly.

10.1 to 1 CR , even with that compression, with factory spec'ed timing etc and running on crap gas, these engines don't ping. Great on long trips. I can buy gas from anyone without a problem. Given the choice, I would buy premium name brand stuff --- but, in a pinch, no problem.

ANYWAY, Gord, great photos and thanks for posting. Did you say that you hope to take it to Carlisle this year? Have a great trip and enjoy the show. I have been many times but, sadly, not this year!

Greg



(image.jpg)



(image.jpg)



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Mopar1
Posted 2015-06-02 10:39 AM (#480173 - in reply to #480125)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318



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LD3 Greg - 2015-06-01 11:14 PM

miquelonbrad - 2015-05-19 9:53 PM

The Chrysler 354 poly pistons are the same way. The 1958 engine is identical to the '57, but has higher output, due to the taller pistons. There isn't a whole lot of difference, but you can see it, comparing them side to side.


Here are pics of the factory domed Pistons with valve reliefs cut into them. 58 CDN Dodge Custom Royal. 354 poly.

10.1 to 1 CR , even with that compression, with factory spec'ed timing etc and running on crap gas, these engines don't ping. Great on long trips. I can buy gas from anyone without a problem. Given the choice, I would buy premium name brand stuff --- but, in a pinch, no problem.

ANYWAY, Gord, great photos and thanks for posting. Did you say that you hope to take it to Carlisle this year? Have a great trip and enjoy the show. I have been many times but, sadly, not this year!

Greg
The early & A Polys are different engines.
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Mopar1
Posted 2015-06-02 10:42 AM (#480175 - in reply to #480119)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318



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sconut1 - 2015-06-01 9:22 PM

2) Being that this transmission is liquid cooled, I felt I should add an external transmission cooler. This didn't exactly fit in with my totally un-modded plans. However, I don't see what else I can do. This transmission was built to be liquid cooled and I didn't think it was a good idea to try running it without any external cooling despite the fact that the car does have the air cooled bell housing and fins on the torque converter. !
Just depends on weather you want to fry the Tranny or not! Probably best answer would be to add a cooler to the radiator if there's room, if not an aux cooler with its own cooling fan would be the next best choice.
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sconut1
Posted 2015-06-12 12:41 AM (#481206 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318


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Ugg....... and a trip to Carlisle goes down in flames.

Well, not literaly.

On Monday this week, AAA showed up and towed my Fury to a different transmission shop. I was expecting to hear that my puking transmission was the result of an incorrectly vented transmission. Unfortunately, when the trans shop pulled the pan on my freshly rebuild transmission, they found a bunch of metal shavings in the pan after informing me that my car hand no forward gears.


Fuxk.

That's all I gotta say about that. I suppose I should have been expecting it....given the issues I had with the transmission earlier. Unfortunately, even if the new shop can get me going by the end of next week, I can't take the car to Carlisle. It's simply unproven, and there's probably a few nigglies that need to be worked out before the car is ready for any significant road use.

The good news, or well, marginally good news, is that I was able to agree on a settlement for damages from the transmission shop that originally built the transmission. I didn't get what I wanted, but, they say a bird in the hand is better that two in the bush. At least I'll be able to pay for almost all of the labor involved. However, I'm on the hook for all the hard parts.

I'm hoping that if suppliers get stuff to me on time I'll be able to make it to a local car show next weekend, but we'll see. I'll continue to update until the car is 100% complete.

Sigh.
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jimntempe
Posted 2015-06-12 2:57 PM (#481266 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318



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Just out of curiosity and if you care to share more of the story, on what basis is the first shop claiming they don't need to stand behind their work on the transmission?
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sconut1
Posted 2015-06-12 10:27 PM (#481321 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318


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Well, there's a couple of reasons I'm letting them off the hook without complete and absolute responsibility. First, and I never would normally do this, I won't give them the opportunity to fix this. The reason why is this: This thread started with a photo of my transmission in the back of my truck on the way to the transmission shop. I posted this in September, 2014. I've outlined the issues I had with this shop through this thread, but long story short is I got my transmission back the first week of March, 2015. That's six months to put together a transmission, and I offered my help numerous times sourcing new hard parts. At one point, they asked me to find another used transmission which I procured for them and they paid me for.

Long story short, is I don't think I'm out of line refusing to have them do the repair work based on their prior track record of six month turnarounds on jobs that are supposed to take 8.5 hours. Additionally, the reason they asked for the used transmission was not only for parts, but to give them something to look at so they could re-assemble mine. I was in the back of the shop prior to me finding the transmission for them, and I found my transmission scattered all over a workbench, some of it was on the floor, and some of it was in 5 gallon pails.

We've agreed on a settlement for damages which I'll be picking up on Monday. As part of this, I'll need to agree to sign a form that says I won't take further action, which I'm willing to do. I'm just pi$$ed right now over this situation and though I'm not entirely pleased with the settlement, it's probably the best I'll do without small claims court action, and there's no guarantee in court. Basically, lots of cash is what it will take to fix this, and cash is what they're giving me. I just want to move on, get the car done so I can enjoy it this summer. It's possible if Fatsco can ship what the shop tells me they need this week, the car could be done next week. 14 days as opposed to 6 months.



Edited by sconut1 2015-06-12 10:40 PM
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jimntempe
Posted 2015-06-13 7:52 PM (#481392 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318



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Hope it works out well, sounds like it should. I toyed with the idea of having my TF rebuilt since it has a couple minor leaks. The idea was fix it before something breaks and takes out the "hard parts" but I kept having this fear in the back of my mind of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" as well as wondering if they would manage to screw up a perfectly shifting transmission somehow.
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sconut1
Posted 2015-06-15 2:05 AM (#481540 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318


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Thanks for the comments, Jim. I appreciate it. I'll keep everyone apprised here as to what's going on. In fact, I should know quite a bit more tomorrow.
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sconut1
Posted 2015-06-16 11:26 PM (#481749 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318


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The new shop looked at the transmission. Looks like I need a front pump, and the entire forward clutch assembly and (I forget the name of it), the shaft that the input shaft protrudes through. I ordered all from Fatsco and all the parts should be here tomorrow morning.
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sconut1
Posted 2015-06-28 1:11 AM (#483007 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318


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Well..... another update.

There's a gear behind the front pump that I also needed to order. I checked before I ordered and it is 3/4" of an inch wide. I ordered this, and Fatsco sent me the wrong one. They were good about correcting the error, but now I won't have the gear until Monday. I'm hoping that the shop can have all in good order by Tuesday, as there's a big show on July 1st I'd really like to attend. For now, the car is still at the trans shop.
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sconut1
Posted 2016-05-26 12:36 AM (#512449 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318


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Well, apparently, I've been somewhat negligent in keeping this thread current.....

Thought I'd take some time and finish things off.

Lo-Cost was able to complete my transmission. They did a reasonable job as far as I can tell. I was able to pick up the car once I returned home from Carlisle. Although the car idled like a champ, just smooth and perfect, it a) sounded like an Indian-wagon with my temporary exhaust system, and b) Didn't really run that well when in gear and accelerating. I wasn't surprised at this, as I really hadn't had a chance to do much with fine tuning with the engine at all as I'd been dealing with nothing but transmission issues for weeks.

I'd worked my a$$ off on this car...every day for over six months and in process, injured the rotator cuff in my right shoulder. What was a hobby had turned into a second job and I was a little tired. I brought the car to a local hot-rod shop and had them complete the initial break-in of the poly, to adjust my carburetors and linkages, and get the car to a reliable running state, which they did. More or less, but more on that later.

I couldn't deal with the exhaust on the car, so I took the car into a local muffler shop and had them complete the connection of the old exhaust system to the new engine. This was a little more pricy than I'd expected; there was lots of labor to custom bend the front pipes to the point where the could be connected to the rest of the exhaust system.

One of the things I thought I'd look at while the car was apart was replacing upper control arm bushings. I did so, knowing that I'd need a wheel alignment after. I took the car in to a shop that specialized in alignments. I brought my service manual with me, but they claimed they didn't need it. This turned out to be the most expensive wheel alignment I'd ever had. They spent almost 3 hours on the car, and my bill was over $300.00. They showed me specs, I compared them with my book and they were bang on, with one exception. One measurement was 1/2 a degree off, which they suggested could be frame sag. They said I'd never notice it. They told me they removes a lot of shims. I suppose that's a good thing. What I was rewarded with after all this is a car that drives straight as an arrow. And I run bias-ply tires.

The car in good running and driving (are they ever really done?) on August 14, 2015. I went to a small rural car show (my favorites) to celebrate.

So, first impressions.

From a sheer" is this car enjoyable to drive?" standpoint.... and it's funny, Doc Desoto predicted this before I ever got the car done..... it's a way nicer car to drive now that the 440 is out of it. It feels a bit lighter and more nimble. Certainly, the appearance of the engine compartment is much better.

Power? Jury's still out on that.... not able to properly evaluate. It's a little anemic right now. Coming back from the last car show of the year, I put my foot to the floor and left it there. 90 mph, top speed. Clearly, something's not right. I did a little investigating, and discovered that the front carb is not coming on, at all. I'm a little POed that the speed shop didn't pick this up. I have some issues with the carb linkage, and this will require some more investigation. Something's wrong, but not quite sure what, other than the linkage isn't opening up the carb as far as it should be. I'll work on that one.....

So.....that's the engine swap. I'll post some pics of the car finished, and not in my garage in a few weeks at the first show.

Now.... do I call this post done, or do folks want to hear back about the final power verdict and what I found with the accelerator linkage/kickdown stuff?

Edited by sconut1 2016-05-26 12:50 AM
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soiouz
Posted 2016-05-26 6:31 AM (#512455 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: RE: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318



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Thanks for the update! I'd love to read more, and I look forward to pics of the finished car.
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ttotired
Posted 2016-05-26 5:53 PM (#512511 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318



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I tried to set mine up like the factory with staged linkages and couldnt get them right, so both my carbs are running the same now

I have 2x 500cfm edelbrocks on mine and I have not messed around with the jetting and its biggest drama is a flat spot when you floor it at low speeds, you really hear those carbs open up, sounds like theyre going to suck the planet in and the other problem was getting it to low idle, I had to screw the idle screws almost all the way in.

Once its up and going (around 30mph) when you stomp on it, it happily picks up its skirts and goes, I havnt tried to peg the speedo yet, but I did get to 100mph pretty quick and it was still wanting to go

Problem around here is the roads that would be good to do this on are well patrolled by the police or have speed cameras on them, so you have to go to lesser roads to have a go and they are a lot more dangerous, so I will probably never see how fast it will go

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matte
Posted 2016-05-26 7:41 PM (#512526 - in reply to #512511)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318



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ttotired - 2016-05-26 5:53 PM



Once its up and going (around 30mph) when you stomp on it, it happily picks up its skirt and goes..........





Love it!! Never heard that saying before!!

Edited by matte 2016-05-26 7:42 PM
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sconut1
Posted 2016-05-27 9:14 PM (#512631 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318


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Hi Mick.....tell me a story..... What issues did you have with the progressive linkage and what did you end up doing to make it function as it does now? Did you find that linkage travel was a bit short?
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sconut1
Posted 2016-06-06 2:34 AM (#513308 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318


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As promised....photos of the "finished" car. There's still a few little odds and ends to deal with.... some wiring tidy-up mostly. Here it is:





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60 dart
Posted 2016-06-06 3:58 AM (#513311 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318



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what master cylinder is that , by the cap it looks gm/corvette ?-------------------------------------later
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ttotired
Posted 2016-06-06 6:09 PM (#513370 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318



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Location: Perth Australia
Problems I had were driveability ones really, it was really quite sluggish and the other problem was getting it to return to idle.

Having 2 springs on the carbies made the pedal very heavy and it was putting a lot of strain on the throttle linkages (remember, mine is RHD), so it just seemed to work a whole lot better to make them operate the same as each other

Part of the sluggish problem can be put down to the kickdown not working properly, once I got that working, it was a lot better, but I havnt tried redoing the carbies to staged since I fixed that

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sconut1
Posted 2016-06-15 8:15 PM (#514256 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318


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Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Chuck..... to be honest, I don't have the first clue where that master came from. It came with the car when I purchased it and I re-used it.

Mick......Hmm......Same issues I've been having. I drove the car a few weeks ago and I adjusted the progressive linkage to where the second carb comes on much earlier. That's really helped, but I need to back that off a little as the second carb is wanting to kick in near 60 mph just holding the gas at a cruising speed. I still think that I might not have the linkage "correct", and that is likely a contributing issue.
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Powerflite
Posted 2016-06-15 9:52 PM (#514262 - in reply to #514256)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318



Expert

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Location: So. California
I preferred to run my dual quad 392 with fixed linkage (non-progressive). It seemed to run better with better fuel distribution and was easier to tune. It also had more power and didn't use much more fuel if you can tune them properly.
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VAN HELSING
Posted 2016-06-16 10:08 AM (#514302 - in reply to #514256)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318



Elite Veteran

Posts: 983
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Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia
sconut1 - 2016-06-16 12:15 PM

Chuck..... to be honest, I don't have the first clue where that master came from. It came with the car when I purchased it and I re-used it.

Mick......Hmm......Same issues I've been having. I drove the car a few weeks ago and I adjusted the progressive linkage to where the second carb comes on much earlier. That's really helped, but I need to back that off a little as the second carb is wanting to kick in near 60 mph just holding the gas at a cruising speed. I still think that I might not have the linkage "correct", and that is likely a contributing issue.


....

I haven't got a dual carb setup and not familiar with how it's setup OEM but I'd probably be thinking the second carb in a progressive system would certainly be starting to open, at least on the primaries, before it got near 60 MPH, that is if I'm understanding correctly what you are trying to say?.


....

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VAN HELSING
Posted 2016-06-16 10:11 AM (#514303 - in reply to #514302)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318



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Posts: 983
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Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia
........

Forgot to add......

Nice looking job on the car BTW, I like it.


......
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gradford
Posted 2018-06-12 3:25 AM (#565067 - in reply to #457120)
Subject: Re: Goodbye 440....hello A block 318


Member

Posts: 25
25
The master cylinder looks like late 70s Jeep.
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