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finally got my car back, BUT!!!!!!
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udoittwo
Posted 2014-10-22 2:35 PM (#459963)
Subject: finally got my car back, BUT!!!!!!


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A month ago, I dropped off my car. All I asked the shop was to make my brakes better. They are terrible and they allways have been before and after I made any changes. I have added the AAJ front disc set up, new MC, proportioning valve. 10 lb rear brake valve, new lines, ect. They won't lock and it has very little pedal. The shop went to pull rears and the nightmare began. After another $1500 and a month, my car is back and no better as far as stopping then it was before. They broke their puller and shattered the end of one axle trying to get the hub off, so I got a set of nice axles from Big M. Once they had them, they were concerned they were going to have to cut the hubs off, so, again, thanks to Big M, I was able to get a pair of drums and hubs, which were very nice and cleaning up well. They had to cut the studs off, knocked them thru the hubs and pull the drums. Then they were able to get at and heat the hubs which popped right off. Because I wasn't able to get them off for the past 3 years, I had 7 years and 40,000 on the brakes and it showed. They had around 1/32 or less left before I hit metal. Glad they weren't rivoted. So, now I FINALLY have nice drums, new brakes, and cylinders. Good thing I found the cylinders ahead of time as one was leaking also BUT, after all that, it still doesn't stop. The garage asked me if these brakes ever stopped back in 1960. Even though I know very little about MOPARs from this era and it is non power, I allways thought they were supposed to lock up if I stood on them or do something????
Sence I have owned this car, I did the AAJ set up, new lines, new rear wheel cylinders and calipers twice, 4 different master cylinders, new pads and shoes at least 2 times, 2 different proportioning valves, bled gallons of fluid thru with every method possible, ect. If I total it up, I am sure I have spent over $4000 on the brakes and it still doesn't stop. I've had it to 4 garages and one "old timer" work on them. I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND!!! It is such a simple system. How can none of us figure it out????? If I didn't like this car so much, I'd drive it straight into a wall, then it would stop!
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wizard
Posted 2014-10-22 2:50 PM (#459964 - in reply to #459963)
Subject: Re: finally got my car back, BUT!!!!!!



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Most probably, the diameters of the mc's dosn't fit the calipers and the rear brake cylinders Karl, - one press on the pedal does not give enough fluid to the front and rear brakes. What happens if you press the brakes two times rapidly?
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ronbo97
Posted 2014-10-22 3:49 PM (#459967 - in reply to #459963)
Subject: RE: finally got my car back, BUT!!!!!!


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Karl -

It's your money. You can do with it as you please.

There is apparently a lack of understanding both on your part and on the shop's part, of how these brakes work. I would advise you to buy a shop manual and read it. Also, there are dozens of threads on this website devoted to how the brakes work, using the correct puller (I'm sure that your shop has no clue as to what a tapered axle puller is or how to use it), how to adjust the shoes to give you a firm pedal, etc.

Are you using a dual reservoir master cylinder ? Did you bench bleed it before installing ?

You didn't say what year/make of FL Mopar you have. That would be helpful.

Ron

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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2014-10-22 3:54 PM (#459968 - in reply to #459963)
Subject: RE: finally got my car back, BUT!!!!!!



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udoittwo - 2014-10-22 8:35 AM

How can none of us figure it out?????



I think you just haven't found the right persons in your region that know anything technical about brakes and hydraulic systems.

If you want to really figure out a few things it's best to start hooking up a pressure gauge in the brake system and check how much fluid pressure is actually generated.

If your MC is too large, you won't have much pedaltravel and the MC won't create enough pressure for the calipers to grab the disc. (I think this is what happens in your case)
If the MC is (way) too small, you will have a lot of pedal travel and it might bottom out before enough fluid pressure is created for the brakes to work.
But usually this can be found by pumping the pedal twice and see if that improves the situation.

Find out what diameter your MC is, and the front brake calipers as well.

My '62 Chrysler wagon has 1973 Chrysler calipers with a 2.75" diameter each.
The mastercylinder is from an '80s Voyager and has 15/16" diameter.
On the rearaxle it has 11" x 2.5" rear drums, unknown brake cylinder diameter. (I probably should go one size smaller on these as the rearbrakes are slightly biased and can lockup the wheels on wet roads sometimes)


I would find out the diameter of the MC and the front calipers first.



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plymouth
Posted 2014-10-22 4:25 PM (#459969 - in reply to #459968)
Subject: Re: finally got my car back, BUT!!!!!!



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I have had AAJ brakes on the front of my former 58 plymouth and it stopped just fine. I installed the conversion kit in less than 3 hours and everything worked great . The master cylinder was from a 1967ish mopar with disc/drum setup. Maybe you have the wrong master cylinder and or your rear shoes are misadjusted. Make sure your shop knows that there should be a slight drag when the drums are rotated. Also make sure they know HOW to adjust the shoes. As for their question on if these cars ever stopped correctly, I can say yes they did and do if everything is set up as it should. My 61 Dodge stops great and straight as an arrow without the slightest bit of pull or fade AND they are completely stock. I bought a Fairbanks rear drum puller and the rear drums came right off . A few months later when I wanted to replace the rear axle bearings, seals, and races, my neighbor gave me the correct mopar drum puller and it worked like a champ. No heat was required to remove the drums either. I hope you find out what is going on with your brakes soon, but I'm betting that it's a simple adjustment of the shoes or wrong master cylinder.

Edited by plymouth 2014-10-22 4:28 PM
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rockerarm
Posted 2014-10-23 10:09 AM (#460017 - in reply to #459967)
Subject: RE: finally got my car back, BUT!!!!!!



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ronbo97 -  Did you bench bleed it before installing ?

Bench bleeding the master cyl is a very important step. Done incorrectly and nothing will ever work corectly.

Bench bleeding means just that ....... remove the MC from the car and bleed on the bench in a vice. It could be that the brake pedal & pushrod is not compressing the MC piston completely to the end of the bore, which means all the air is not being removed, which could cause the issue your having.

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wizard
Posted 2014-10-23 10:12 AM (#460018 - in reply to #459963)
Subject: Re: finally got my car back, BUT!!!!!!



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I don't really know how important bench bleeding is; I never ever once tried to bench bled any mc on any car and I never ad any problem with bleeding the brakes and getting all air out. It' just brakes,very important, but no rocket science.
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jimntempe
Posted 2014-10-24 1:30 AM (#460088 - in reply to #459963)
Subject: Re: finally got my car back, BUT!!!!!!



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As I understand it, the more the MC points "up" when mounted in the car, the more important bench bleeding is. If your MC points "up" (front higher than the back) there can be air trapped at the far front end of the MC that just can't ever get out because it's too high to flow out of the outlet port when you bleed it on the car. All the replacement MC's I've bought have even included little kits so you can bench bleed them before installing them.. these have all be on later model cars with dual masters and generally they mount with at least a little bit of "up in front" angle on the MC.
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1961 fury
Posted 2014-10-25 6:28 PM (#460224 - in reply to #459963)
Subject: Re: finally got my car back, BUT!!!!!!


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What master Cylinder are you running ? I have manual drum brakes all the way around on my 61 fury with a 440 and a 4 speed and it stops great ! Also I drive it like stole it ! I used a master Cylinder of a 66 belvedere , dual piston dual reservoir
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udoittwo
Posted 2014-10-29 10:54 AM (#460534 - in reply to #459963)
Subject: RE: finally got my car back, BUT!!!!!!


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Sorry, most of that was a lot of venting and I neede to take a brake.
OK, to answer some of your questions. I have a shop manual, unfortunately, there is very little on modifications or disc brakes. I have a fairly good mechanical sence and have done several MCs over the years. I have replaced every part of a standard brake system at least once in my lifetime. I have bench bled or just stuck one out of the box. The only benefit that I found to bench bleeding is to possibly save some bleeding but, in the end, the results will be the same and yes, every MC I used on this car was bench bled first. I installed the AAJ brake set-up by myself and it really didn't take too long. I used all the correct parts that the instructions said to use. I started with a dual MC that the AAJ instructions said to use. I am not in anyway saying this is an AAJ problem because I don't know what is happening. After installing the kit, the brakes just slightly improved. It was suggested here to take it to a mechanic that is good with brakes. How do you know who that is? 40 years ago, there was a gas station on every corner with so many mechanics around, there was always the "best" one to go to that had worked on these brakes sence they were first used. Back then, the average mechanic had more years on the wrench than the average age of todays mechanics. Today, ALL garages will say they are experts on brakes even though this style was extinct 20 years before they were born, so I figured the first person to take it to was a guy that builds race cars from the ground up. Who would know more about how brakes work than this guy? He looked at everything, said the set up looks OK and that they only needed to be bled and after a gallon, he had no answer. Even though they feel mushy, pumping doesn't make any difference. So, I took it to the next guy. He suggested going to a larger MC and one for a Disc/Drum set-up. I believe the AAJ reccomended MC had a 7/8" bore? We tried a 1" with no difference. So I got one for a 73 Cuda with Disc/Drums with a 1 1/32" bore with no difference. I've replaced the calipers and pads and I just had the rear drums and shoes replaced. All the cylinders/calipers are moving. A while back, I added the 10lb check valve to the rear line and that helped the pedal some but not its inability to stop. I just got all my parts back from the axle/brake mess and the rear shoes were worn down almost to the shoe and the front pads are still OK. I added a proportioning valve[ajustable] a few years back and it wouldn't completely close but as closed as it would get, didn't change anything. I recently replaced that with a none adjustable proportioning vavle with no difference.
Well, that's about it.
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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2014-10-29 11:11 AM (#460536 - in reply to #459963)
Subject: Re: finally got my car back, BUT!!!!!!



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Changing MC's to various diameters and NOT feeling any difference means there's something else wrong in your brakesystem.
Have you ever changed / checked out the proportioning valveblock?

Do you have the main lines from the MC connected properly to the proportioning valveblock? The rear most line from the MC is used for the front brakes. The front MC-line is for the rear brakes.

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ronbo97
Posted 2014-10-29 2:08 PM (#460549 - in reply to #460536)
Subject: Re: finally got my car back, BUT!!!!!!


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So can you share with us what kind of car this is ?

Did the car have manual or power brakes befoe you did the conversion ? Before you converted, did the car stop well ?

I'm thinking that the rod attached to the brake pedal isn't moving the piston inside the m/c sufficiently to send enough brake fluid down the lines.

Ron

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udoittwo
Posted 2014-10-31 8:34 AM (#460661 - in reply to #460536)
Subject: Re: finally got my car back, BUT!!!!!!


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Yeah, I tried 2 different types of proportioning valves. First I tried a Wilwood adjustable style that I got at a speed shop. I really am not sure what it is supposed to do or if it is working correctly. I can open it all the way or close it all the way. Even totally closed, I can still blow through it. Maybe, it isn't supposed to completely close off the flow? Open or closed, it didn't affect anything which we thought was strange. I then bought one of those common big brass block universal valves off Ebay for disc/drum set up that is unadjustable and that did nothing also.
I checked the correct line hook up several times checking a couple different sites to be sure they all said the same thing and I have them correct.
I know its hard for SOME of the lucky ones that have great working brakes to understand and I'll bet some of them think I am an idiot. Honestly, I am being humbled here and I do feel like an idiot. I really don't want to spend $1000s of dollars on a simple thing like a brake system and I certainly am not comfortable driving sometimes. I appreciate some of the ideas and I have tought of and tried most of them several times as have the 3 garages I took it to. The following suggestion, is something that I really haven't done much with. I thought about it but I can't remember over the years what we did with the peddle rod, so I will answer to his suggestion next.
Thanks for your ideas,
Karl.
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udoittwo
Posted 2014-10-31 8:53 AM (#460662 - in reply to #460549)
Subject: Re: finally got my car back, BUT!!!!!!


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Hi Ron,
It is the 60 Plymouth Suburban.
It had and still has manual with a non-power disc/drum MC.
I probably would never have done the AAJ exchange, if it stopped OK in the first place. Actually, I believe that is one of the reasons I came to this forum in the first place several years ago. I read about the disc conversion and thought that will have to make a difference. It did make some slight change, but it was not enough to lock them up or even make me feel real comfortable.
As I read into how brakes should work, there was an article about rod adjustment and angle that I am curious about. Haven't really looked under the dash in several years. We built an adjustable push rod for it when we did th conversion. I know we set it up the way it was recomended and I asked a couple of the garages to check the rod also and they both said it was adjusted correctly but your question makes me wonder.
After just getting the old parts back for the garage, the rear shoes were worn out but the front pads were used with plently left and that makes me believe they are doing very little. Could the peddle be adjusted in too far or would that leave the brakes dragging? Now, its just touching the MC, IF its not in far enough, what would happen.
Thanks for your ideas,
Karl.
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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2014-10-31 6:53 PM (#460705 - in reply to #459963)
Subject: Re: finally got my car back, BUT!!!!!!



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Too long pushrod being in full contact with the MC = (front) brakes will drag, more when hot because brakefluid can't return to the MC.
Too short pushrod = More play in brake pedal / longer stroke.

Too large MC = hard pedal, difficult/no braking
Too small MC = softer pedal, long pedal stroke, strong braking if pedal doesn't bottom out first.

Worn rear brakes = Non functioning front brakes, not enough fluid pressure, bad proportioning valve. Most likely heavy rear braking bias which will cause dangerous wheel lockups on wet roads.

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