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Power Center
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Forgotten 61
Posted 2014-11-19 6:23 PM (#462308)
Subject: Power Center



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Hi all, on a 1961 Ply. Belvy is there a centrally located fuse block, junction block, power terminal, bus bar, or something that contains the wiring for the entire car?
If so, where is it, and if not, how were these FL cars wired up ? Thanks.
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ttotired
Posted 2014-11-19 6:56 PM (#462310 - in reply to #462308)
Subject: Re: Power Center



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Nope, no central fuse box

Main power wire goes to the headlight switch (which has a circuit breaker built in) and goes where ever from there

There are a few external circuit breakers here and there (depends on your accessories) and the only fuse I can think of is for the radio (hangs around near the radio)

The wiring schematic isnt to hard to work out and I strongly surgest you get one (if you havnt yet) if your thinking of adding a few goodies

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Forgotten 61
Posted 2014-11-19 8:13 PM (#462313 - in reply to #462308)
Subject: RE: Power Center



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Thanks, ttotired. I have a factory manual with the schematics in it, and it's pretty simple to read. That's what I thought was strange. No matter what circuit I'm looking at, there's no path shown from power. Just a diagram and the wires codes. I'm used to working on mainly later 60's and 70's mopars. (I'm spoiled)
So you're saying that there's a main power wire from the battery to the headlight switch, and then it splits off to power the rest of the car?
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jimntempe
Posted 2014-11-19 9:35 PM (#462317 - in reply to #462308)
Subject: Re: Power Center



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ttotired posted this photo in a different thread. You can see the the heavy red wire that's the main power supply wire on the lower headlight switch terminal (switch is lower center of photo).



(Dash removal (48)s.JPG)



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ttotired
Posted 2014-11-19 11:53 PM (#462326 - in reply to #462308)
Subject: Re: Power Center



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I think I posted all this before, but I cant remember, but this is the wiring repair I did on my 60 dodge.

Being an Aussie dodge, it uses a 60 plymouth dash and everything is a bit backwards to what you guys are used to.

Disregard the white plug near the steering column as that is a modification I did so I could easilly swap between wether the brake lights or the reverse lights worked as indicators (In Australia, they used amber reverse light lenses and they flashed, not the brake lights)





(Wiring 001s.JPG)



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(Wiring 003s.JPG)



(Wiring 004s.JPG)



(Wiring 005s.JPG)



(Wiring 006s.JPG)



(Wiring 007s.JPG)



(Wiring 008s.JPG)



(Wiring 009s.JPG)



(Wiring 010s.JPG)



(Wiring 011s.JPG)



(Wiring 12s.JPG)



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Attachments Wiring 12s.JPG (94KB - 163 downloads)
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ttotired
Posted 2014-11-20 12:09 AM (#462327 - in reply to #462308)
Subject: Re: Power Center



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You can see what happened to the harness and why it needed a repair, this is a very common problem on mopars (normally caused by an amp meter problem)

In picture 7 and 12 (white plug with 2 small yellow wires) you can see how I have protected the harness from this happening again.

1 of the wires goes to the headlight switch and the other to the alternator.

These are called fuseable links, it can also be done with the larger (late model) type of fuses or a manual reset circuit breaker

I chose fuseable links because they are closer to being "period correct" and do not look out of place in the engine bay

I recommend that everyone (unless your wanting concourse correct) fit something simmilar to their cars as a cheap and easy solution to having to do the repairs that I did.

To repair this harness from start to finish would have taken a day to a day and a half (I am an auto elec) so more if you did it yourself and if you paid someone to do it, somewhere between $1000 to $1500, so for the small investment it takes to do this, its cheap insurance

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Forgotten 61
Posted 2014-11-21 7:30 PM (#462462 - in reply to #462308)
Subject: RE: Power Center



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My GOD !!!! I can't believe cars were built like that and it was the standard!! I'm surprised they didn't have a car a week burning to the ground. There's GOT to a better and safer way. My car has been sitting in a barn since 1971 and the wiring is toast.
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rushpowersystems
Posted 2014-11-21 8:07 PM (#462464 - in reply to #462308)
Subject: Re: Power Center


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Look they worked with what they had, as technology changes so does the systems in a vehicle. So build a custom harness and graft in a fuse box. The quality of wire is much better on older stuff than it is on newer. The wires on our 60 DeSoto is in better shape than the wires on most 90s vehicles, and ours has been in a field for 30 years. I am using 90% of our stock harness and we are grafting in a fuse box and relay box under the hood, it is not that hard.
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Forgotten 61
Posted 2014-11-21 8:22 PM (#462465 - in reply to #462308)
Subject: RE: Power Center



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Thanks Rush, I think that's what has to be done. A customized harness. There's just not enough good original harness left, and what's there isn't what I would call trustworthy. Any suggestions on where to put the first circuit breaker and what amp to use ??
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ttotired
Posted 2014-11-21 8:24 PM (#462466 - in reply to #462308)
Subject: Re: Power Center



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I think on your side of the world that Greg (LD3 Greg) makes up new wiring harnesses at a reasonable cost?

Most harnesses can be repaired if your keen enough and its just broken wires or 2000 add ons (making a rats nest)

You do not have to remove the dash (pillar to pillar) to do this, its just easier to get the wiring off the switches and gauges ect and you can see how things are better, but, some things, instead of taking the wires off (eg, switches), you can take the switch out and leave the wires on the switch.

If I was doing this on a customer car, unless they requested it, I would not be removing the entire dash assembly.

There really isnt a lot in one of these harnesses, its just a matter of taking your time and removing it carefully (there are NO wires that should be cut as NO wires were added after the harnesses were made (orriginally).

There are some plugs that will have to have their terminals removed (but left on the wires), but not a lot.

If you do it, a camera (not a phone) is a great help, take lots of photos and tag the loose wires with tape saying what it was for or went to (takes time, but better than having a jumbled mess and no clues as to how it went) and allow youself plenty of time.

Most parts are relatively in expencive and easy to get (or get simmilar), so nothing to be scared about, just use the correct size and colour wire, a good soldering iron, heat shrink (tape will do, but heat shrink is better) and try to keep the distractions to a minimum (not really a job where you want 1/2 a dozen mates around having a few beers) you need to concentrate a bit

And with the repairs (if its repairable), pick 1 wire at a time and run it from its start to its finnish and if it was "T" into, put the "T" in straight away and run that to its finnish as well.

Most people get over awed by wiring because there are so many wires going everwhere, but basically, they are pipes for electricity and if you deal with 1 pipe at a time, its quite simple

Have fun


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rushpowersystems
Posted 2014-11-22 2:59 AM (#462484 - in reply to #462465)
Subject: RE: Power Center


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Here is the main problem, some fools that are running the show and have decided that the earth will die or we will run out of resources if we don’t recycle everything. Because of this the quality of metal is lower today than it was back in the day.

 

We rebuild and customize harnesses and rotating electrical, if we had the quality of metal of the rotor and stator from 70s and the technology of today we could product 30 to 40% more power from an alternator.

 

 When someone send us a harness to rebuild we ohm and amp load test the wires and the connectors (pins), we reuse as much as we can because it will last longer. The harness in our 60 will be in good shape in another 50 years, most of the harness from the 90s is failing now and our number one harness we rebuild is mid 90’s Fords.

 

 If the insulation is still there and you can bend the wire without it cracking chances are it can be saved, we have developed a few tricks that works wonders.

 

 We have moved away from circuit breakers, most of them are junk and the ones that are not are overpriced, we use blade fuses such as MAXI or MEGA fuses. You want it 12” from your battery, the size depends on your charging system, if you are keeping it stock a 50 or 75 amp will be fine. If you are running an alternator you need a fuse about 30 amps higher than the alternator output. Everything should go through this but not your starter cable. Run an 8 gauge to under the dash, install your fuse box and start wiring.

 

 

We use Centech for our custom harnesses. Here are some example photos of a vintage Ford Mustang

 



Edited by rushpowersystems 2014-11-22 3:14 AM
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2014-11-23 1:30 AM (#462556 - in reply to #462466)
Subject: Re: Power Center


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Thanks for the recognition, Mick, but I don't have any patterns for 61 Ply. so I don't have anything available.

To add to what has been said, I use ALL the original OEM terminals in my harnesses with the added feature that they are made with metal alloys that Far EXCEED original specs. The originals were plain,cheap brass. The ones I use are made from significantly higher grade alloys and are plated to prevent corrosion.

In my opinion, 61 Mopar harnesses are about as good as it gets for our era of cars. Clearly, if they needed fuse blocks at time of mfg they would have had them. These cars have run down the roads for more than 50 years with original wiring. Failures can probably be attributed more to improper customer or technician maintenance or alteration than poor design!!

Like Mick said." Wires are just pipes". Take your time and you will be fine! It is the stuff that is at each end of these pipes that CAUSES the damage!! It usually has nothing to do with the wiring ---- with or without fuses!!

Greg
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1960fury
Posted 2014-11-23 7:03 AM (#462568 - in reply to #462464)
Subject: Re: Power Center



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rushpowersystems - 2014-11-21 8:07 PM

The quality of wire is much better on older stuff than it is on newer. The wires on our 60 DeSoto is in better shape than the wires on most 90s vehicles, and ours has been in a field for 30 years.


that is true. i have never seen a 59-61 mopar with bad wiring. my newest 61 is no exception. i personally never had any problems with oe wiring in 100 000s of miles driving. the wiring in my 60 fury is still like new. the wires that were added in the 80s for a 4 way flasher are junk already. i alway cringe when i see people ripping out the quality oe wiring to replace with new stuff.
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rushpowersystems
Posted 2014-11-23 12:40 PM (#462592 - in reply to #462556)
Subject: Re: Power Center


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LD3 Greg - 2014-11-22 11:30 PM  To add to what has been said, I use ALL the original OEM terminals in my harnesses with the added feature that they are made with metal alloys that Far EXCEED original specs. The originals were plain,cheap brass. The ones I use are made from significantly higher grade alloys and are plated to prevent corrosion. 

 

If I understand that correctly I would disagree with that, OEM terminals have not been produced since the 60’s today’s stuff is a reproduction.  The original terminals were very high quality, if they were not there would be a high resistant built up at the terminals that that would over heat the wire and shorten the life.  We reuse as many original terminals as we can just for the quality of the metal. The reason the new stuff is coated is because of the low quality of the metal, if they did not it would last half as long.

 

Stupid hyperlinks here are the photos that did not post last time.

 

 

 

When we do need to use modern terminals and pins we solder the connections. Although the Centech fuse box is very high quality, due to the metal quality it will need to be replaced or reworked in 30 years or so. The nice thing is the screw terminal connections, you can swap out a fuse box in 30 minutes or less.  

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LD3 Greg
Posted 2014-11-24 6:30 PM (#462698 - in reply to #462308)
Subject: RE: Power Center


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I purchased my terminals many years ago.
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rushpowersystems
Posted 2014-11-24 6:34 PM (#462699 - in reply to #462308)
Subject: Re: Power Center


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Well that changes things, don't suppose you would want to sale any, or all of them would you……..ya I wouldn’t either.
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2014-11-24 6:37 PM (#462700 - in reply to #462698)
Subject: RE: Power Center


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Here are part numbers and drawings.



(image.jpg)



(image.jpg)



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LD3 Greg
Posted 2014-11-24 6:41 PM (#462701 - in reply to #462699)
Subject: Re: Power Center


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rushpowersystems - 2014-11-24 6:34 PM

Well that changes things, don't suppose you would want to sale any, or all of them would you……..ya I wouldn’t either.


At this stage, I'll hang onto them. Thanks
Greg
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rushpowersystems
Posted 2014-11-25 2:16 AM (#462735 - in reply to #462308)
Subject: Re: Power Center


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Haha, I don't blame you.
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Forgotten 61
Posted 2014-11-25 8:07 PM (#462802 - in reply to #462308)
Subject: RE: Power Center



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WOW !! this is great info. Thanks to everyone. There is some of the original harness I plan to use. Mainly from the front kick panels back. The rear wiring is in great condition and I'll use that. The problem is that while in it's 40 plus year hibernation, every rodent in Virginia set up house under the dash, and probably thought that the color of the wire was the flavor also, so they ate it, exposing bare wire. And we all know what bare looks like when subjected to years of moisture. I'll do my best to make what I need, and graft it into the original. This club is the best. Thanks again.
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2014-11-26 12:10 AM (#462841 - in reply to #462802)
Subject: RE: Power Center


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Glad to hear that Phil. Good luck with the project!
Greg
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ttotired
Posted 2014-11-26 3:38 AM (#462852 - in reply to #462308)
Subject: Re: Power Center



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If its really bad, it might be worth giving big m a call to see if he has a reasonable one that you can work off

There are slight differences from 60 to 61 (not hard to change if you can follow the schematic)

My harnesses were also good from the kick panels back, so I did very little to them, mostly just the modification for the indicators

When I was an apprentice, I was taught to leave sleeping dogs lie, if its good, its good

A lot of the engine bay harness is a part of the dash wiring, so it can get a bit ratty (pardon the pun) in there and thats mostly where you will come across brittle wires, but just take your time, un wrap the tape (dont try to slice it, unless your a surgeon, you will slice the wires) and every so often, add a new wrap of tape to hold it together espesially at branches

If you do have a go, keep using this thread and I am sure the answers will come

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Forgotten 61
Posted 2014-11-29 3:42 PM (#463109 - in reply to #462308)
Subject: RE: Power Center



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Thanks to all for the support. I've started working on it, and it's been slow going, taking my time. What is everyone's opinion on manual resettable circuit breakers?
(the kind the pop when tripped)
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ttotired
Posted 2014-11-29 5:02 PM (#463115 - in reply to #462308)
Subject: Re: Power Center



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Used extencively on trucks, you can get ones that replace the blade fuses like in the fusebox above, you can get them in the 1" long tin box ect

But before you rush out and buy some, your question is loaded, where are you (what circuit) are you putting the c/b in?

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55coronet440
Posted 2014-12-03 3:19 PM (#463490 - in reply to #462308)
Subject: Re: Power Center



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I made a new harness from the dash forward after a faulty rebuilt alternator shorted out about 9-10 years ago in my '55. I took the burnt (not all of it thankfully) harness and made the new one 1 wire at a time, of course I labeled them all while disconnecting; took a long time. But now it has some fusible links integrated into the 10 ga. wires, and I replaced the ammeter with a custom-made voltmeter.
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Forgotten 61
Posted 2014-12-04 11:13 PM (#463658 - in reply to #462308)
Subject: RE: Power Center



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Was thinking of putting in a 30amp C/B down stream after it leaves the headlight switch, but before it splits off to the first circuit. Then continue with the re-wiring.
It's pretty scary under the dash. All sorts of dirt and debris. Making progress though.
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Forgotten 61
Posted 2015-05-01 1:05 AM (#477055 - in reply to #462308)
Subject: RE: Power Center



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it's ALIVE IT'S ALIVE AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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Forgotten 61
Posted 2015-05-01 1:08 AM (#477056 - in reply to #462308)
Subject: RE: Power Center



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Posts: 157
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IT'S ALIVE IT'S ALIVE AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!
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Forgotten 61
Posted 2015-05-14 1:21 AM (#478217 - in reply to #477056)
Subject: RE: Power Center



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Making progress. Thanks for all the help !!



(Untitled.jpg)



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