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Location: DFW, TX | I got a hundred bucks that says the bottom 6" of the quarters is gone.
But I'll gladly buy the front sheetmetal from anyone that wins the car.  |
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Elite Veteran
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Location: kansas city, mo. | car will be perfect 'cept for dry rotted tires! |
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Location: DFW, TX | I hope you're right.
But if they didn't dry it off good before they locked it up... |
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Location: Minneapolis | I say that the glass and the tube of lipstick in the glovebox are the only things not completely eaten by rust. The concrete tomb that the rust-prone Plymouth was buried in surely acquired a bit of water seepage over the years. They did absolutely nothing to protect the (new) old girl from rust. Nothing short of dipping the whole vehicle in cosmoline would have done the trick. Maybe the drivetrain will be okay. Hate to be a pessimist, maybe more of a realist... |
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Veteran
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Location: Loveland, CO | Here's another vote for near-total rust and rot. I sure hope I'm wrong.
Chris |
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Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | I would think they would have taken all measures available at the time to protect this car so it would look it's best on being un- earthed. Is there any info on what was done to it before burial? This is much better than Heraldo Rivera big tv show hype on uncovering Al Capones secret hiding vault--nothing there! .......over....... |
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Location: Minneapolis | I stand corrected, I had forgotten that I read it WAS "wrapped" in cosmoline (which means it would have rusted from the inside out):
"Sitting on a steel skid, the white and gold car was wrapped in a cosmoline-like substance to help preserve it and then buried within a concrete bunker (The car was lowered into the vault several times prior to June 15 for photo shoots, one such photo ad appearing on page twenty-five of Life magazine's July 7 issue.) Twenty years after the cars burial, questions were raised as officials began to wonder if the vault would maintain its integrity for fifty years. Its location (marked by a bronze plaque on the courthouse lawn places it close to modern traffic. Buck Rudd, deputy chief of building operations for the county court house, mused in 1987, "There's a lot of traffic going by only 15 or 20ft from that thing. We've been curious to know it vibrations from the heavy traffic might have caused it to crack. If moisture starts getting in there, it's going to cause things to deteriorate over fifty years time," Rudd continued. Unknown to the committee - or anyone else then - 1957 Plymouths were terribly prone to rust. Asked what type of maintenance was done on the time capsule, Rudd replied, 'We just cut the grass on top of it.' "
Last I heard, concrete was very porous! And why would they be more careful, it was "just" a car!
Edited by forwardlookparts 2005-05-20 9:27 AM
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Veteran
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Location: Bethlehem GA | My guess is that the car will be Ok. Concrete vaults keep outside moisture off a casket for 50+ years so why not a car? I don't think there will be any water damage if the vault was built right. I am also sure if cosmoline was use they would have also used moisture absorbing devices and unless the vault cracked they would not be completely saturated. There can't be dry rot with out UV rays so the tires and interior will be in new condition. My guess is the brake pedal is resting nicely on the floorboard, the wheels cylinders long since let the fluid seep by them. The seals in the carb are dry and the float will most likely be stuck. And the tires have lost there air. If the coolant was not drained I would say the engine has a good bit of rust in the waterjackets and the water pump will leak as soon as they try to start it is the pump will spin at all. I also would say the car will go to someone not wanting it and it will be sold for rediculous money within 6 months of winning it. Thats my guess. Maybe I put to much thought into it. |
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Location: Minneapolis | And why put it on a steel skid? Talk about stupid. They may as well of made a big nest of steel wool for it to sit in!  |
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| My mother's 3 car garage is made of concrete. Its always cold and damp. This leads me to believe that the plymouth will not have faired so well. It will be amazing to see none-of-the less.
I think the car should be donated to the Walter P Chrysler museum, but thats just me. Parting it out or junking it would be a darn shame. This is a piece of history... it should be preserved (as well as it could be).
Jessica |
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Location: Minneapolis | Great idea Jess! That is if the thing can be moved without it collapsing. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 515
Location: Lubbock, Texas | I'm betting the rockers and eyebrows will not have made it. The gold paint's probably shot, and there will probably be considerable surface rust.
I'm guessing the interior, while it may smell like wet dog, will have made it.
Either that, or the spring thundershowers and the constant downtown traffic caused a cement collapse, and the result will be very painful to look at.
At any rate, if my family were to win, I'd do whatever it took to put the car back together again. My granddaddy loved these cars, even though he never could afF**d one back then. Boy, wouldn't that be something if they drew his name and won the car? I've been dreaming about this since I was about 12 and found the old newspaper clippings down in my grandparents' basement.
John
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| If they can remove ship wreckage from the bottom of the ocean without too much damage, they can surely remove this car. Perhaps that was the idea behind the steel skid? It can be done! 
Jessica |
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Location: Minneapolis | John, that would be TOTALLY cool if your family won it! I wish y'all the best of luck.
If it is rusted beyond repair, maybe the whole thing could be heavily lacquered with a clearcoat and displayed as historical art! |
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Location: Lubbock, Texas | Now I'm all stirred up and hopeful!
Two more years to go. Maybe I can take my granddaddy in the DeSoto to Tulsa. I don't know if he could make the trip, but I bet he'd have a blast. The last great road trip back home. We could go by the old house and eat at the Metro Diner and Nelson's Buffeteria on Fourth and Boulder -- if they're still there.
Edited by CRLancerman 2005-05-20 12:13 PM
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Location: Bethlehem GA | I don't think you have to worry about the concrete falling on the car. If that happened there would be a giant sinkhole in front of the courthouse. Also surface rust is out because in order to have it the paint has to be eroded down. There is nothing down there to do it. Also if there was moisture down there the car would not rust quarters up like a typical car. The moisture would attack the unprepared surfaces. Think about where it would collect and what was bare metal from the factory. First the underside of the roof is bare metal as is the inside of the rockers, under side of the dash, where the trim attaches and the exsaust system would all get a good bit of surface rust started. The interior would be completely ruined do to serious mold and rot. The moisture would then collect in the window channels and rot that leading a path to the lower quarters and rot them. The floors would be next and the cowl and the drip rails and under the trim until there was nothing left. It would have to be real damp to do that.
This is why I think the car is OK. First for water to get in air has to get out. Any air getting out would create bare spots on the lawn as the water and mud seeped into the vault. Not only that but the courthouse gardener would see bubbles everytime it rained. If they saw that I am sure it would be unearthed early. Not only that any leak worth worring about over 50 years would create a depression over the vault as the soil was washed into it, that has not happened. Basements are cool and damp because of condensation. It will be cool in the vault but there is no outside air to create condensation. I would stake money on the fact that something is in place to absorb any moisture that was down there when sealed. That is why I think the car will have no water damage what so ever and will be dry as a bone. I do think the damage will be in the form of sitting up. Flat tires, empty brakes, dried seals, ect.
Edited by 60buick 2005-05-20 12:32 PM
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Expert 5K+
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | i don't think anyone wants to see a pile of rust but the possibility for this is great------if someone could get a copy of the vault design specs-it would to a great extent-answer a lot of questions-they should be public knowledge and easy to get but it's something that would have to be done in person------i would guess the funding for this project was on a limited basis and may show on unearthing day------as far as the traffic near by causing vault damage goes-that all goes back to funding and design------i would think they chose the least to expect the most------done properly a concrete vault can and will last for 50 yrs. and beyond-without the slightest cracks or seepage-again design------two major factors keeps popping in mind------if this vault was not a monolithic pour-meaning the bottom and sides were not poured at the same time and the exterior didn't have an applied sealer-of some sort you can bet the TULSA FARM it leaked------the use of cosmoline may also have been a great help but only if it was air tight------i would truly hope she emerges a beauty but until the final seconds it's all speculation------------------later
PS. i wonder what she'd be worth if time and the elements were kind to her ? |
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Location: Minneapolis | Well, I don't know if I subscribe to the theory of air having to escape for water to seep or not. All I know is that my basement started leaking in the late 1960s due to heavy rains, snow melt, etc. It started out very slow. By 1997, it had to be addressed (in the form of professionally installed drain tiles) because the passages in the dirt and foundation the water flowed through had become so open and free that ANYTIME it rained, I would get water downstairs. Of course, on the outside of the house, the exposed foundation (concrete), nothing awry was visible to the naked eye! So I am saying that the tomb could have water seeping in without any obvious visual flags and plenty of condensation within. Of course, I may be wrong. I HOPE I am. It would be a shame.
BTW- I think that they took greater preventitive care when they buried the Plymouth Prowler in 1997! |
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Location: Minneapolis | Chuck, she would be PRICELESS! |
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Location: DFW, TX | Concrete IS porous, not matter how well it is cast. If it had some kind of liner, that might prevent water from getting in.
You wouldn't see air bubbles in the grass, but that is kind of funny. For one thing, you don't mow grass when there's standing water on it. Also, the rainwater will take time to sink into the ground and touch the tomb, which is probably 5' from the surface. By the time the moisture is to that level, the surface is likely dry.
The more I think about it, the more I think this car is going to be very bad off.
Water pressure is an incredible force, and moving / shifting earth is too. I've seen shifting ground break open 18-gauge wire in those "hidden fence" electric perimeter systems that were buried only a foot in the ground.
I'll bet my last dollar that concrete has at least ONE crack in it, and frankly, that's all it will take to destroy a '57 Mopar. I think there's a good chance the car will be completely water logged when it's opened up. If the conrete roof is broken, it could collapse as they begin to unearth it. I'm trying not to be a pessimist, but a whole bunch of other '57 Plymouths have hit the end of their road too.  |
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Location: Farmingdale NJ | O.K.; heres my two cents. I do earthwork for a living. Concrete vaults, chambers, manholes, pipe, you name it. I guarantee your two biggest factors to worry about, are (as stated before) The design and construction of the vault, and, the existing stability of the ground it was placed in. Including water table. Yes monolithic is the only way it should have been built, but they still had to have a seam at the lid. Could that have been sealed well?; YES it could have. Was it?.... The stability of the ground or unstable ground would have exerted enough force to easily crack even monolithic structures. ALL concrete cracks due to the inherent properties of the curing process. (it shrinks as water evaporates from it). The good side of this is;.. the slower it evaporates, the stronger the concrete. This thing is not exposed to the sun, and should have cured slowly. Thats good. The other factor is; if this thing is buried deep enough, there should have been very little temperature change over the seasons. Imagine having your car stored in the dark in a temperature controlled environment for fifty years!!!!!..........All that said, if the structure is sound, the car will be VERY sound also. If the vault is not sound, its any bodys guess. Including full submersion. |
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Location: central oklahoma! | i wonder what kind of shape it would be in if the chamber were completely filled with water. if no air could get to it, how could it rust? on the other hand, i know that steel submerged in water DOES rust, but i don't know how.
i do think it would be better off dry than wet, that's fer sure! and i'm willing to bet it may well be dry. i've seen both wet and dry basements here in oklahoma. |
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Location: Northen Virginia | I would like to see that car like new, but my worst fear is that the chamber my be flooded, to the top, and the car is under water..It will be a tragedy. I saw a on TV a B29 that has been under water in a lake since 1947 and still almost intact, of course is aluminum skin Will see.. |
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Veteran
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Location: altoona pa, south central pa | I'M GOING AGAINST THE ODDS. I SAY ITS GOING TO BE IN PERFECT CONDITION OTHER THAN THE TIRES, GASKETS AND MAYBE SOME OF THE INTERIOR FABRICS. EITHER WAY I'D TAKE IT WHETHER IT IN PERFERCT SHAPE OR NOTHING LEFT OF IT. THAT CAR IS A VERY IMPORTANT PIECE OF EXNER HISTORY SO I'D BE APPY TO HAVE IT IN ANY CONDITION.
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Location: The Bat Cave, Fairborn, OH | I hope I'm around to see it. That's still 2 years away. I am very curious as to how it held up all these years. I'm also curious to find out who will be awarded the car as a "prize" for guessing most accurately the population of Tulsa in 2007. I suppose the organizers had taken every precaution known at that time to preserve the metal, but if moisture had gotten in over the years it's doubtful that even cosmolene would have saved it. And it's a sure bet that all of the seals in the transmission and the brake system have failed. Even if it comes up and it's not a solid mass of rust, it's not going to move under its own power until it has some heavy-duty maintenance performed on it.
Edited by 58 DESOTOS RULE 2005-05-22 6:26 PM
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: batley,west yorkshire,england.......uk. | am sure going to try and be over there for this event, i think chose what the cars like it will be one a them hair on the back a yer neck jobs for sure, and i reckon it will have faired well myself,and maybe might a just had some extra special treatment beside the rustproofing thats mentioned,maybe a few extra coats of paint etc, but chose what it looks like someones gonna own a piece of history,plus all the goodies loaded in the car too, and maybe we could be guessing the price of such a jewel and her contents, anyone got bnb nearby. dean j.uk. |
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Member
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Location: long island ny | lets hope some one who is into classic cars wins it, what if it some one into the import scene they will probably put a sledge hammer to it if that happens. my bet is it will be slightly aged and it will start on the first turn of the key |
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Location: The Bat Cave, Fairborn, OH | plymouthjim - 2005-05-22 10:18 PM lets hope some one who is into classic cars wins it, what if it some one into the import scene they will probably put a sledge hammer to it if that happens. my bet is it will be slightly aged and it will start on the first turn of the key AMEN to that Brother! I hope someone into classic cars wins it too. It would be a shame if it is awarded to some young punk heavy into the Honda-Toyota-Mazda Japanese crap scene. AS for the engine starting with the first turn of the key, well...I'm pretty sure that won't be happening! It has, after all, been buried for 50 years and it's going to need some TLC! Let's hope for the best however! |
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Location: Minneapolis | Not only that, you'd be a fool for even TRYING to start it without tearing it down and rebuilding it first! |
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Location: long island ny | im just being optomistic there is a 1% chance of it happening |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | Doug, you certainly aren't afraid to state your opinions! What do you do when you are proved wrong?? ......over..... |
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Location: Minneapolis | Steve, I like my humble pie well done with plenty of crow and try not to splash too much egg in my face when you're servin' it up, eh? |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | Doug, lets go out for supper-- we can eat cheap---LOL ......over...... |
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Location: Minneapolis | Hey Steve, if you're going down to Tulsa, maybe we can convoy/caravan. I am seriously thinking of going! I am in Minneapolis and can swing on through! |
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Location: Vacaville, CA | I have always been told that there are two types of concrete, the kind that is cracked, and the kind that is going to crack. I am trying to be optomistic about this, and I am going to try to be there with my belvedere for the excavation, but the more I think about it the more I see a concrete swimming pool with a wasted plymouth below the waterline. But I want to be there to see it nonetheless. |
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Location: long island ny | its also quite possible they open it and say hey where did the car go? this thing is only full if 2 inches of brown dust........ oh |
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Location: DFW, TX | There will be five tires and a pair of tail lights floating in the muck.. lol. |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | Yes Doug - Tulsa is definitly in my plan . We have two years to get ready, so that should be enough to get things in top notch condition. Fer sure--you and anyone else coming this way--I would welcome a caravan--possibly a stop over?
As for the buried Fury, I will stick my neck out. We have seen cars 50 years old, continuosly exposed to the worst outdoor elements. And some have survived remarkably well. OK, this Fury has NEVER been exposed to: salt-sun-heat-cold-ice-pollution-animals-mouse pee- etc.-etc. The only air was what was in the vault, do you not need oxygen in addition to water to produce rust? IF water did get into the vault wouldn't it be good ole OKY pure ground water? I believe the key is---How well was the vault sealed and if it cracked. a scientist probably wouldn't venture a guess without knowing these two things......over...... |
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Location: long island ny | some of the things buried with the car make no sence why are there tranquillizers and a 5 gallon can of gas did people of 1957 think that there would be no gas in 2007 |
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Location: Vacaville, CA | well it would definitely be leaded gas and we don't have that stuff anymore!...and they said that the other contents were things you might find in a ladies purse, maybe that's what the tranquilizer's were about, like valium...who knows? |
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Location: Minneapolis | That's it Brian. And maybe they DID have some foresight: The Valium is for the winner after he sees the car! |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | In light of Paula's Gud-GNUS about Virgil's Garage's structural integrity, I thought I'd re-post THIS thread, and another one, in Re: a certain "POLL"
about Virgil's anticipated condition, on his Birthday-party!! |
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New User
Posts: 4
| Hi There, I'm From The Netherlands (Yes next to Germany in Europe).
I just heared about this 57 Plymouth!, It's a great thing!
I found it out by an accidental movie on Youtube...
I always liked time capsules! As a child I was always burieing my things in metal boxes etc. to dig them up later, it's some kind of a trill to me.
I especially like cars/planes etc. wo were lost and found without anybody touching ofr seeing them for so many years!
They recently found a 1963 Merceds 230SL on the bothom of the Neckar River in Germany that was lying there for about 40 years IN the river. OK, the car was a total wreck by now but still very recognisable. I think the vault must have protected the car very well. Even if it would have leaked (which I doubt because them even used spray-concrete). 50 years may be a long time for a car, but not for a concrete structure!
I have never visited the USA but such an event makes me wanna go immediately!
I am just crazy about 57/58 Plymouth! I want to buy a Savoy or something, but they are very rare in Europe...
Now i am driving classic mercedes cars (1966 230S, 1977 450SE, 1981 240D) but I want to have a 50/60's american car. Like I said, the Plymouth/Chrysler is my favourite but they are rare as there are much more Cadillacs and chevrolets here. I like a 4 door teh best but most imported cars here are specials like coupe/sport etc (Camaro, convertible, corvette, coupe) and hence expensive...
I hope that I can get as much info as possible about the unearthing, I hope to see video's etc. but it won't be news in europe so I won't see it on the television...
Have fun beeing there! Be carefull for tomb-gasses ;-)
Great!
Bye,
Mathieu |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 406
Location: Voss,Norway | No matter how you see it, if the car is a pale of junk or in pristine condition the car should go right in to a museum as part of history.
You cant compare this car with other old cars and prices as it will be price less.
Let us for good sake hope that the person that wins this car will donate it to f.eks. the chrysler museum or a historical museum in Tulsa where it has been buried for so long time.
Thats my opinion....
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Hey, Johan-you-Rebel!
The FIRST thing that you should do, is contact the Hampton Inn (find its thread, on this Board) & see if room reservations are STILL
available!!!
Then, if it's booked, you can check with the Crown Plaza Hotel (it's discussed early-on , on the big "Doubletree Hotel" thread.
Once you get a room confirmed (hopefully begining at TUESDAY thru SAT-nite), then you can make a 'reservation', for
the Un-earthing"show" , at the Convention Center, on FRI @ 6:30 PM.
There'll be at least one other Nederlander at the 'show' : Jim Hoekendijk, who has been planning on SHIPPING his 57
Dodge, here, & driving it to Tulsa!!!
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| 57belvedere - 2007-04-19 8:06 AM
No matter how you see it, if the car is a pale of junk or in pristine condition the car should go right in to a museum as part of history.
You cant compare this car with other old cars and prices as it will be price less.
Let us for good sake hope that the person that wins this car will donate it to f.eks. the chrysler museum or a historical museum in Tulsa where it has been buried for so long time.
Thats my opinion....
Would YOU donate the car to anyone if YOU were the winner?
I know if I were the lucky winner, there's absolutely NO WAY I'd part with this one.
Ideally, I'd want to get the car running (& probably restored) and drive it once in a while.
Of course, I've never really believed in owning a vehicle you can't drive and enjoy.
I can only hope that a car-guy gets it... I think it would be a shame to see this car boxed away AGAIN.
-NM |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Well, I've written to say that the winning family will be confronted with an IRS Ordinary-Income Form 1099, so that
they will have to pay Income Tax, on the car's "appraised" Fair Market Value, whenever it might, finally, be awarded
TO "someone", and, that the 'winner's' most-lucrative option would be to get it to the B-J, where various museums/
collectors can bid upon its ownership!!
The 'winner(s)' would, THEN, have an ADDITIONAL tax-liability, for whatever the car might "bring", at auction (less, its
F.M.V. , opon-which 'they' will already have owed, or paid, Income Tax).
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Location: Los Angeles, Ca | 60buick - 2005-05-20 9:30 AM
I don't think you have to worry about the concrete falling on the car. If that happened there would be a giant sinkhole in front of the courthouse. Also surface rust is out because in order to have it the paint has to be eroded down. There is nothing down there to do it. Also if there was moisture down there the car would not rust quarters up like a typical car. The moisture would attack the unprepared surfaces. Think about where it would collect and what was bare metal from the factory. First the underside of the roof is bare metal as is the inside of the rockers, under side of the dash, where the trim attaches and the exsaust system would all get a good bit of surface rust started. The interior would be completely ruined do to serious mold and rot. The moisture would then collect in the window channels and rot that leading a path to the lower quarters and rot them. The floors would be next and the cowl and the drip rails and under the trim until there was nothing left. It would have to be real damp to do that.
This is why I think the car is OK. First for water to get in air has to get out. Any air getting out would create bare spots on the lawn as the water and mud seeped into the vault. Not only that but the courthouse gardener would see bubbles everytime it rained. If they saw that I am sure it would be unearthed early. Not only that any leak worth worring about over 50 years would create a depression over the vault as the soil was washed into it, that has not happened. Basements are cool and damp because of condensation. It will be cool in the vault but there is no outside air to create condensation. I would stake money on the fact that something is in place to absorb any moisture that was down there when sealed. That is why I think the car will have no water damage what so ever and will be dry as a bone. I do think the damage will be in the form of sitting up. Flat tires, empty brakes, dried seals, ect.
I would agree with 60Buick about the car's condition. quarters and eyebrows would typically rust out due to the road spray (dirt, water, salt, etc) result from cars driven. as we all know this car hasn't been subjected to that. I also agree with some of the other areas that would rust out first. but there have been some very educated statements regarding the concrete, etc. so it will be interesting to see nonetheless. Personally, I don't think they should even try to start this as the car would need work to get it into a running condition which would for sure ruin its originality. If someone needs to hear a Plymouth run- go check out one of the many beautiful restored cars that will be there.
I too would love to see a pristine car emerge, but I wouldn't bet on it.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Well, Brendon: go PLACE your 'bet', on the POLL-thread, down below "here"!
The comments, about the porosity of concrete, etc, were made before the posters were made aware of the extra-
ordinary precaurions, & gunniting of the interior of the vault.
As I do NOT believe that Tulsa has a high water-table, I do not believe that there was any water intrusion, through the concrete
and gunnite.
The 'biggest' concern involved the integrity of the vault's lid , and the lid now appears to be in FINE condition.
Now, go down 'there' and CAST your vote!!!
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Posts: 75
Location: Texas | Has everyone seen this article?
http://www.buriedcar.com/Media_Coverage/The%20Shelbyville%20News,%2...
It states that the car's plastic bag was VACUUM-SEALED. And that material containing "volatile rust inhibitors" was placed throughout the car.
Since first hearing about the car, probably 15 or 20 years ago, I have always predicted it would be a total loss. But now I'm beginning to think there's a chance the car has held up pretty well, especially if the above info is true.
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Let's take some bets on the Tulsa Plymouth.
