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Brakes stickig after driving
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guyman
Posted 2015-05-22 11:46 PM (#479124)
Subject: Brakes stickig after driving


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OK., this has happened to me the last few times I have taken out my '59 Sport Fury. I have Power Brakes with drums all around....everything had been replaced, Booster, master cylinder, wheel cylinders, brake lines, soft brake lines, brake hardware, new shoes, drums turned etc etc.....

So here is what is happening. Tonight., took about a half hour drive to a car show., and I could tell after about 25 minutes, the brakes were dragging. It got worse and worse., so bad., that it feels like the parking brake is on. I can always tell if the brakes are sticking., cause.... a) I can smell the brake pads, 2)., the car is pulsating and hard to accelerate. Yesterday I had the same problem...so put the car up on Jack stands and the back wheels were pretty much froze up...so adjusted them again and I thought that that was all I needed to do., so today, took the car out and have the same exact problem...I mean they are sticking bad....it seems to happen after I have driven the car for 20-30 minutes., then all the sudden., feels like the parking brake is on....anyone else have this problem and what is the solution???

Here are my thoughts:
1.) the piston in the master cylinder is sticking after the car is driven a bit., so there is pressure in the brake system that isn't getting released?
2.) the parking brake cable assembly is somehow engaging the trans brake after warming up? maybe it's warn out?...I know I could disengage this to see if that solves the problem., but have not done so yet.

When the car is cold., the brakes work perfect!...when they heat up., they start sticking!!!

HELP!...thanks., Guy

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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2015-05-23 4:15 AM (#479138 - in reply to #479124)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving



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No. 1 almost;
The pushrod between booster and master cylinder is adjusted slightly too tight/long.
Shorten it just a tiny bit and test again.

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57desoto
Posted 2015-05-23 6:56 AM (#479145 - in reply to #479124)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving



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On a '57 DeSoto, this can happen if the adjusters are turned the wrong direction when snugging the shoes to the drum, then backing off. You can set them for the correct "drag" by turning things the wrong way, but weird things like this can happen. Maybe it's the same for your car.
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ronbo97
Posted 2015-05-23 2:18 PM (#479166 - in reply to #479145)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving


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From your description, it sounds like a gradual build up of pressure. Within the master, there is a pressure relief valve (IIRC) at one end of the spring. Yours could be missing. Did you rebuild the master yourself, or is this an 'ebay special' ? I would get another master from a reliable source like Bernbaum, and swap it out. Or disassemble the master and compare to the illustration in the parts book.

Ron



Edited by ronbo97 2015-05-23 2:20 PM
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57chizler
Posted 2015-05-23 4:13 PM (#479175 - in reply to #479124)
Subject: RE: Brakes stickig after driving



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What BigBlockMopar said. If in doubt, loosen the nuts holding the MC to the booster and allow the MC to slide forward 1/4" or so...if the brakes release the problem if the pushrod adjustment. (very common on new installations)
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jimntempe
Posted 2015-05-23 7:17 PM (#479184 - in reply to #479124)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving



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If the fluid in the MC is nice and clean so you can see thru it you may be able to just look at what's happening while someone presses and releases teh brake pedal SLOWLY. You may need a mirror to see around the booster. After the pedal is pressed, when you slowly let it come back there is a point near the end of the release stroke where the piston uncovers the release port that's in the bottom of the MC. You can actually see (with clean fluid) the port in the bottom and watch as the fluid escapes thru the port and creates turbulence in the fluid.
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ronbo97
Posted 2015-05-23 9:13 PM (#479190 - in reply to #479184)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving


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The book also mentions, as Jim said, the release/relief port on the bottom of the master cylinder bowl. If it's partially blocked, it would cause this condition. It lists a swollen primary cup, incorrect pedal free play, scoring and rust between the piston and piston stop as causes of this blockage condition.

Ron

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guyman
Posted 2015-05-24 2:59 AM (#479211 - in reply to #479124)
Subject: RE: Brakes stickig after driving


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Thanks for all the suggestions., I went ahead and bought a new master cylinder tonight...BUT!...I will try the loosening the nuts and or adjusting of the rod also., will try all mentioned...I don't like getting locked up when I am just driving down the road on a nice cruise. To be fair., the booster I bought was one of those "ebay" specials and although it looked new when I got it and the piston moved freely., still could be a bad one! Parts are not rebuilt the way they use to be!.

Will post the prognosis when I get it figured out!

Thanks. !
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ronbo97
Posted 2015-05-24 11:08 AM (#479244 - in reply to #479211)
Subject: RE: Brakes stickig after driving


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I would not advise messing with the rod unless all other ideas have been exhausted. These are preset at the factory and if you start adjusting it, you'll be introducing other problems into the mix. Also, IMHO if there was a misadjustment of the rod, it would be an 'all or nothing' thing, not something that happens gradually as you drive the car.

Ron

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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2015-05-24 2:00 PM (#479254 - in reply to #479124)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving



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Ron you might want to read the first 3 sentences of the first post. Everything has been replaced by new/other parts.

Changing the rod length should be the first thing to check
It's a common thing when all or just both front wheels start to drag
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ronbo97
Posted 2015-05-24 3:49 PM (#479263 - in reply to #479254)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving


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BBM - If it were the rod, the problem would surface right from the start, not after 20 or 30 minutes.

>it seems to happen after I have driven the car for 20-30 minutes., then all the sudden., feels like the parking brake is on

Also, even though he replaced everything, parts such as the master could be incorrect or a poor rebuild. I have experienced this. Also, people sometimes buy junk on ebay to try to save a few bucks. Not saying that's the case here, but IMHO the problem is with the master. So that's where I would start.

Ron

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57chizler
Posted 2015-05-24 4:39 PM (#479271 - in reply to #479263)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving



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ronbo97 - 2015-05-24 12:49 PM
If it were the rod, the problem would surface right from the start, not after 20 or 30 minutes


Not so. If the return port is blocked, the amount of fluid trapped in the system is exactly the volume that will prevent brake drag but as the fluid warms up and expands the fluid volume expands enough to prevent a clean release.

The majority of the times I've run across this problem it only occurred after driving some distance. Adjusting the pushrod isn't rocket science.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrFEzfDnzqM
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ronbo97
Posted 2015-05-24 5:24 PM (#479275 - in reply to #479271)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving


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Guy -

The whole internet awaits the outcome. Please let us know.

Ron

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guyman
Posted 2015-05-25 12:45 AM (#479304 - in reply to #479275)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving


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Since it's Memorial Day Weekend., spending these few days NOT working on cars (my wife's request..LOL)...I did order a new master cylinder...ANOTHER one, should have it maybe Wednesday!.....the one I bought last time was another rebuilt unit., possible it's a bad rebuild...housing messed up...ya never know, been rebuilding classic Mustangs for a long time., and have got my share of bad masters!!!!...rebuilt parts are fickle these days.

Since the pressure seems to be building over time and not from the get go...I am leaning towards a bad master....if I drive the car for a short distance...I don't have this problem., just driving longer distances...so if I head down the street to my local car store., no problems...but if I take a nice 30 minute drive in the country and back...then I have experienced the same problem now everytime on a longer drive...stuck stuck brakes.

I did put the car up on stands when I got it home the first time I noticed the sticking., and man., they were all stuck....!...I thought maybe the adjusters, adjusted themselves...but not possible I don't think since they are manually adjusted? (Could be wrong, I'm not a lifelong mopar guy)...but I did re-adjust them so where I could spin the tires....so I thought, great, problem solved....(NOPE)., the next time I took the car out., everything was peachy., had my wife in the car for a nice car show cruise and BAM....same MF problem (puts a damper on things!!)., the brakes were sticking so bad just sitting in a parking lot., I didn't think they would release enough to get the car home...but I pushed through it a little and they released just enough to get home (very slowly!!!!)

Car has been sitting ever since....I am sure if I go start it up., the brakes will be fine!....and this will happen again..so need to resolve the issue., cause., man, the car runs great.

Will update when I got something done on it.

Appreciate all the input.

Thanks, Guy


And on a side note...the pushrod adjustment may also play a part in all this (who knows)., but will cross that bridge after I replace the master...then if I still have the same problem., will try the adjusting next.

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Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2015-05-25 4:28 PM (#479374 - in reply to #479124)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving



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Just a question, do you have all the four brakes locked ? Or only the rear ?
Another test to know if it's an hydralic or mecanical problem is to unscrew the bleeder on wheel cylinder. If this unlocks the wheel it's an hydraulic problem (i agree with the relief pressure valve and the lenght of the rod, some friends have one or the two !). But you can also have a bad hose as a friend had after an order of a set of new ones from K*nter !
If you can release the brakes if you go in R it's rather a mechanical problem (springs, cams which didn't hold, support plate, etc..).
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guyman
Posted 2015-05-30 2:58 AM (#479809 - in reply to #479374)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving


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Got the master cylinder replace today....and at the same time, shortened the rod length maybe only three turns out...drove it around for a bit, Seems to have solved the sticking problem...but am going to investigate some more....when I got home after a short jaunt to a local cAr show....I noticed the back brakes were noisy...maybe slightly sticky..but not stuck....so I will need to go through all four cylinders and re-bleed the system and then re-adjust the shoes again..

Found out my last master cylinder was leaking fluid somehow by the firewall....my brand new painted firewall has bubbled paint on it now from the fluid getting under the outer finished paint....bummer..never noticed it till now...so probably had a bad master from the get go.

Problem partially solved.
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guyman
Posted 2015-06-04 3:32 PM (#480414 - in reply to #479809)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving


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Got the brakes bled...and am still having some problems...seems now I have to pump the brakes a little to stop...so I am not getting full peddle like I was getting...so not sure if I need to re-adjust the shoes again, adjust the brake rod?...or bleed the brakes more? ...my brake fluid was a little dirty looking when I bled them this time...And they are pulling a little to the right (shoes need adjusting?)

Suggestions?
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ronbo97
Posted 2015-06-04 4:27 PM (#480416 - in reply to #480414)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving


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Did you bench-bleed the master before installing ?

Ron

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jimntempe
Posted 2015-06-04 4:32 PM (#480417 - in reply to #479124)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving



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I can't see any reason why the brake rod adjustment, if it's not too tight, would make any difference as far as needing to pump the brakes. If the MC is good then when you put the brakes on the slack in the rod should be taken up and then the MC should pressurize. And it should pressurize the same on the first pump as on the second and third ones. I'm still thinking the master cylinder is not right, piston seals leaking or it's got air trapped in it. Or maybe there is a small leak somewhere in the brake lines.
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60 dart
Posted 2015-06-05 12:14 AM (#480462 - in reply to #479124)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving



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some mc's seem to need a ton of bench bleeding and i've had more than my share of em . what size bore is the new mc -----------------------------------------------later
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guyman
Posted 2015-06-05 2:59 AM (#480476 - in reply to #480462)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving


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I bench bled it for awhile...there are two holes that air was coming out of..a big one by the back of the cylinder and one in the middle that is a small hole...when I finished bench bleeding it...no bubbles were coming out of either one...although there was fluid coming out of the middle smaller hole....assuming that is suppose to happen.. I did get pressure when bench pumping so assumed it was ready to go.

I started from the back, and bled each one coming forward to the master...I did have dirty fluid in my bleed bottle!!! I had to fill the master like five or six times...so I moved a lot of fluid through the system...no air bubbles were coming out on any of the wheel cylinders when I finished.

They are not sticking like before with the old master, so assuming it's another problem....so it fixed the sticking brakes installing a new master...

So if they pull to the right when braking, I need to adjust the drivers front shoes out a little?

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wizard
Posted 2015-06-05 3:07 AM (#480478 - in reply to #479124)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving



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Guy, the dirty fluid indicates something wrong. From what I understand, you have bleed throgh a full bottle of brake fluid and still you see some dirt. To me, it seems like one or more brake cylinders have bad state; rubber gaskets/rust issues.

Since it's easy to pull the front wheel drums, check for brake fluid contermination on the brake shoes and leaking brake cylinders first of all.
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guyman
Posted 2015-06-05 3:16 AM (#480479 - in reply to #480478)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving


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The whole brake system is new, cylinders, shoes, turned drums etcccc.... the brake lines are all new..fronts, soft lines etc...except the long front to back..rear lines, soft lines, etc...all new. And now, another new master...I used about half a bottle of fluid last time.

I think I need to bleed until the fluid is clear again...

Is there a magical order to bleed the brakes

Edited by guyman 2015-06-05 3:18 AM
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wizard
Posted 2015-06-05 4:48 AM (#480481 - in reply to #479124)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving



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Yep Guy;
1 Rear Right
2 Left Right
3 Front Right
4 Front Left

Always go in sequence of the longes pipes and you should be sure of getting all air out.

Edited by wizard 2015-06-05 4:50 AM
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ronbo97
Posted 2015-06-05 8:39 AM (#480488 - in reply to #480476)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving


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guyman - 2015-06-05 2:59 AM I bench bled it for awhile...there are two holes that air was coming out of..a big one by the back of the cylinder and one in the middle that is a small hole...when I finished bench bleeding it...no bubbles were coming out of either one...although there was fluid coming out of the middle smaller hole....assuming that is suppose to happen.

I'm kinda confused by this statement. Are you using a single reservoir, factory master cylinder, or a dual reservoir ? On the single, there should be two ports: one facing out and the other at a 90 degree angle facing down. Both of these on the front of the master. What you describe doesn't sound like that. Can you post a photo of your setup ?

Ron

 

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jimntempe
Posted 2015-06-05 1:52 PM (#480504 - in reply to #479124)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving



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I think he was talking about the ports on the inside of the MC on the bottom. Sounds like every part of the system was replaced BUT the long line from front to rear. Makes me wonder if his problem is there. Perhaps its almost clogged and making it very hard for fluid to move either forward or backward, which could make it seem like he has to pump up the brakes to get fluid back to the rear and also it would trap return fluid making the rear brakes stick on.
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guyman
Posted 2015-06-05 3:59 PM (#480510 - in reply to #480504)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving


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I am gonna re-bleed the system again today...when I had the last master on there., I had great pedal...but then the brakes were sticking...now., they are not sticking., but have to pump up the peddle with the new master...so I think I have air in there somewhere.

I am assuming on the fronts., you bleed the lower wheel cylinder first., then the upper one!

Will get this sooner or later., thanks for all the input...!

And, yes was talking about the ports on the inside of the master cyl.
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ronbo97
Posted 2015-06-05 9:20 PM (#480532 - in reply to #480510)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving


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OK...now I get what he means. But I'm not sure he bled the master correctly. The way I do it is to attach special flexible plastic lines that feed back into the reservoir from the outlet ports. I then use a wooden dowel to slowly press in the piston. This is done with the master clamped into a vice. When no more bubbles come out of the plastic lines, you're finished bleeding.

Is this the procedure that you followed ?

Ron

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jimntempe
Posted 2015-06-05 10:20 PM (#480536 - in reply to #479124)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving



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YEs, that's the procedure I've always used. New MC's usually come with a little kit with fittings and clear flex tube and instructions for bench bleeding. I wonder if he just blocked off the outlets and pumped it.
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guyman
Posted 2015-06-07 3:13 PM (#480684 - in reply to #480536)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving


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Well...finally got the brakes dialed in...pretty much started from scratch again....checked the master...then bleeding the system....then finally readjusted all the brake shoes again.....took it out last night and wow, what a difference. Now the only thing I gotta fix is it pulls a little right when braking, so assuming I need to adjust the drivers side shoes a little tighter???? Or loosen the pass. Side fronts just a tad?
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wizard
Posted 2015-06-07 3:20 PM (#480686 - in reply to #479124)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving



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Guy, when you have adjusted the front brakes, start the Engine if you have Power brakes; make two three pushes on the pedal and re-adjust again.
Use a good hexagon key because just a little slack ruins the feeling, we are talking female curly hairs here
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jimntempe
Posted 2015-06-07 4:09 PM (#480694 - in reply to #479124)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving



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How many miles do you folks usually go between brake adjustments?
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wizard
Posted 2015-06-07 4:37 PM (#480702 - in reply to #479124)
Subject: Re: Brakes stickig after driving



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Well, I remove the drums, check and re-adjust my brakes every 3000 miles or once a year at least. Not because I need to, but better safe than sorry
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