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strut rod bushings
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59 in Calif
Posted 2015-05-24 11:21 AM (#479247)
Subject: strut rod bushings


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Location: Hayward, Calif
Hey Guys, I'm working on a 59 Dodge suspension also. I recently bought the Moog K7039 bushings, from Rare Parts in Stockton Cal. After reading about this bushing controversy, checked it out for myself and took pics. The rubber bushing is quite stiff. I couldn't squeeze it with my fingers. There is also a steel bushing bonded to the inside which protrudes slightly for alignment in the crossmember hole. Take a close look at the pics. The outer end of the bushing is flat as is most of the washer. I also set the washer on the bushing with the inside curve to the bushing. In this position only the outer edge of the bushing contacts the washer. It doesn't make good sense to put all that pressure on the outer edge when the washer can be installed, as Moog recommends, and put even pressure all the way across the bushing. I for one will install those bushings as Moog recommends. This part # also is used in 57 -59 Chry & DeSoto. Jerry



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StillOutThere
Posted 2015-05-24 2:09 PM (#479255 - in reply to #479247)
Subject: Re: strut rod bushings



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Location: Under the X in Texas
I'm with you. Moog is a top name in suspenion parts for many decades. Rare Parts has the highest quality parts available. Moog pays their highly trained engineers to design these parts and their technical writers to interpret the information in the form of instruction sheets. Install them the way they say to do it. Anyone who differs should post a scan of their engineering degree prior to commenting.
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ttotired
Posted 2015-05-24 7:36 PM (#479278 - in reply to #479247)
Subject: Re: strut rod bushings



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Without having an engineering degree :), the controversy in the other thread about which way the washers go was really about their orientation on original style bushes and moog instructions were mentioned (if I remember right)

But anyway, manufacturers instructions should be followed as S O T says, people have spent a lot of money working out how to make and fit these things

I will say though, that if I saw them mounted as per the instructions, I would think it incorrect

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59 in Calif
Posted 2015-05-24 7:40 PM (#479280 - in reply to #479247)
Subject: Re: strut rod bushings


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Location: Hayward, Calif
StillOutThere, I got quite a kick out of the last sentence of your reply. Haven't had a chuckle like that in a while. I was really expecting someone to rip me a new **shole over this. Jerry
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1960fury
Posted 2015-05-25 10:13 AM (#479328 - in reply to #479255)
Subject: Re: strut rod bushings



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StillOutThere - 2015-05-24 2:09 PM

I'm with you. Moog is a top name in suspenion parts for many decades. Rare Parts has the highest quality parts available. Moog pays their highly trained engineers to design these parts and their technical writers to interpret the information in the form of instruction sheets. Install them the way they say to do it. Anyone who differs should post a scan of their engineering degree prior to commenting.


its moog engineers vs mopar engineers. i personally need only common sense to know the moog engineers are wrong. these bushings have no outer support, the way moog wants the washers installed they force the bushings apart, stressing them unnecessarily.
install the washers the way MOPAR engineer wanted it. mopar engineers who designed these excellent cars and suspension systems.

i've been using the 2 piece bushings probably longer than anybody else. i installed them according to MOPAR instructons 25 years ago. attached a pictures of how they look now after 24 years of almost daily use and 120+ mph panic stops. they still look like new, the day i installed them. my car is he perfect test mule as its stressed more than others.

Edited by 1960fury 2015-05-25 10:23 AM




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1960fury
Posted 2015-05-25 10:21 AM (#479331 - in reply to #479255)
Subject: Re: strut rod bushings



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StillOutThere - 2015-05-24 2:09 PM

Moog pays their highly trained engineers to design these parts and their technical writers to interpret the information in the form of instruction sheets. Install them the way they say to do it. Anyone who differs should post a scan of their engineering degree prior to commenting.



i could give you LOTS of examples where highly trained/payed engineers goofed. i'm just a school dropout and improved or invented lots of things that engineers screwed up or didn't even think of. just saying "they are engineers so they gotta be right" is not very smart.

while i do not think that my posts about my experience and my pictures do not change opinions maybe we can come to the conclusion (looking at my pictures) that installing the washers the way mopar engineers wanted it does not harm the bushings?

Edited by 1960fury 2015-05-25 10:51 AM
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StillOutThere
Posted 2015-05-25 11:12 AM (#479335 - in reply to #479247)
Subject: Re: strut rod bushings



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Location: Under the X in Texas
The factory bushing was one piece and compressed completely differently. It was sort of a double cone. THAT required the washers to cup inward. The factory engineers had it right. The aftermarket engineers had it right. The bushings changed.




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59 in Calif
Posted 2015-05-25 11:59 AM (#479343 - in reply to #479335)
Subject: Re: strut rod bushings


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Location: Hayward, Calif
Just to add to this, the moog bushings are very stiff. Keeping that lower control arm where Chry designed it to be is the end result, regardless of how its done.
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StillOutThere
Posted 2015-05-25 1:50 PM (#479357 - in reply to #479247)
Subject: Re: strut rod bushings



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Location: Under the X in Texas
Rubber parts are rated in "durometer" which is a measurement of how very stiff they are. Once again the engineers are on the job deciding the loads that the rubber will experience in the particular placement /application. The hobby upgrades for the high performance crowd was the multiple types of "poly" bushings that started appearing probably 30 years ago which were extremely stiff but held suspension settings regardless of what the driver threw at them.

So suspension bits are high durometer, motor mounts medium durometer so you won't feel the engine vibrations, and weatherseals around doors and trunks are low durometer so they will crush and conform.
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1960fury
Posted 2015-05-25 2:28 PM (#479358 - in reply to #479335)
Subject: Re: strut rod bushings



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StillOutThere - 2015-05-25 11:12 AM

The factory bushing was one piece and compressed completely differently. It was sort of a double cone. THAT required the washers to cup inward. The factory engineers had it right. The aftermarket engineers had it right. The bushings changed.


its not important if its a one piece design or not. the force on the forward part of the bushing, one piece or not, poly or rubber, remains the same. with the washers installed the (wrong) way, that moog suggests, the bushings are spread apart during braking (again, there is no support whatsoever) and the suspension movement makes the spreading even worse.

also in that other thread i posted a drawing that shows that the washer movement during suspension travel conforms with the shape of the washers when installed the chrysler way. this is really no rocket science.

i installed the 2 piece MOPAR POLYURETHANE bushings with a MOPAR parts number the right way CHRYSLER ENGINEERS recommended using the OE washers. see the results in my pictures.


Edited by 1960fury 2015-05-25 3:08 PM
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jimntempe
Posted 2015-05-25 3:17 PM (#479366 - in reply to #479247)
Subject: Re: strut rod bushings



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It's entirely possible that regardless of which way you install the washers things will be fine. As 60 Fury noted, his were fine after years. The only thing with his assessment (and it's not a criticism) is that had he installed the washers the "other way" they might also have performed just fine. As many have noticed, sometimes the "rubber" for new parts is just plain crap and it starts breaking up in six months and it likely would do so no matter which way the washers were installed. The one thing I would add as far as technical considerations is that part of the equation for these bushings/washers has to do with how well they absorb shock without transmitting a big BANG to the rest of the car when the tire hits a bump. It's entirely possible that Moog choose to put the cup "out" to increase the amount of squish that would take place in the rubber to give a more compliant ride than you'd get with the cups turned "in" where you basically as squishing it all so tight that it can barely move/squish at all when it's loaded. Chrysler used rubber here for a reason, otherwise they would have just bolts the rod to the crossmember and called it good.
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1960fury
Posted 2015-05-25 3:31 PM (#479371 - in reply to #479366)
Subject: Re: strut rod bushings



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jimntempe - 2015-05-25 3:17 PM

It's entirely possible that regardless of which way you install the washers things will be fine. As 60 Fury noted, his were fine after years. The only thing with his assessment (and it's not a criticism) is that had he installed the washers the "other way" they might also have performed just fine.


that is true, but its bad feng shui and i'm 100% positive that the bushings would have a larger diameter now (=more "give"= more stress stress for the lca bushings) i'm pretty sure if i would reverse the lug nuts they would keep the wheels on the hub too, but i wouldn't install em that way either.

Edited by 1960fury 2015-05-25 5:37 PM
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