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Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth
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Mopar1
Posted 2019-12-03 6:58 AM (#591037 - in reply to #591028)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Powerflite - 2019-12-02 7:05 PM

What would you do for it, other than nothing?
I didn't stick any 331 badges n my '60 Plym….
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Handygun
Posted 2019-12-10 7:30 PM (#591425 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth


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Nathan in past conversations we've had I told you your car was a inspiration for me to build a FL car with a early Chrysler. When I was having grief fitting a decent free flowing exhaust in my Plymouth, Chaney (Dukeboy) suggested using a front frame clip from a crown vic-impala-Dakota and I thought no way would I get rid of torsion bars for coils especially on a 57-58 car however in your case to me it doesn't seem bad. You would pick up room, get rid of kingpins, better brakes, parts avail anywhere, a swaybar, etc etc just a thought. And I still dig your car hydramatic or not.
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-12-10 8:05 PM (#591428 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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A rack & pinion would give me more space, but I'm not fond of such suspension conversions. If this were the only car I played with, I might consider doing some trial & error with frame & suspension changes, but I just don't have the time or interest in going down that road. Not only that, but I have already finished the hard part of making the headers so I'm not going to back away now. I'm not really looking for stellar performance, just trying to get the exhaust from pointing straight down and getting it off the ground. I picked the 700R4 because I believe it is the best overdrive trans out there that doesn't use a computer. But I find that the overdrive isn't really needed with an automatic, so if I were to do it over again, I would just install a pushbutton 727 so I could still get park and use the buttons. Using the buttons & having park too on this overdrive trans is more trouble than it's worth so I'm shifting it with a hand cable instead. When the time comes that I stop using it to tow my camping trailer in the mountains, and I can live without park, I'll hook it up to the pushbuttons again.

By the way, I think I figured out why the motor would backfire under load. Once I took it apart, I found that the timing chain was VERY loose. Makes sense, but I tried measuring the slack with the distributor and only measured five degrees of play so it didn't sound bad. But checking out the chain directly, it feels pretty loose. I'll try measuring the slack at the cam and see how it compares, but I suspect that I just didn't measure it accurately enough at the distributor.
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Powerflite
Posted 2020-01-19 1:17 PM (#593192 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: RE: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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The motor is finally starting to come together on this seemingly never-ending project. Got the heads back from machining & assembly and put them on, along with the new Isky camshaft. I moved the motor over to get the left side header installed too. I had to remove all the exhaust studs on that side to make it work. Hopefully I can get this thing together again soon and get started on the cam break in.



(56Plym Heads On.jpg)



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Attachments 56Plym Heads On.jpg (191KB - 45 downloads)
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Powerflite
Posted 2020-01-26 11:47 AM (#593407 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: RE: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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I got the exhaust installed, bolted and welded up yesterday. It took me 2 hours to get one bolt on the left side done because I didn't leave enough clearance to the pipe. So it made it very picky about the positioning of the wrench to install it. I had to modify the backside of the left motor mount to make room for it. But all the rest went in easier than I expected once I made an extra long Allen wrench socket from a crap Chinese Harbor Freight one and a good US made ball head Allen wrench. The Chinese ball socket doesn't swivel worth crap. They put the wrong dimensions on it for some reason. The left header is angled down more and required a bend in the pipe. I just cut a section and welded it in at an angle to compensate for it since the angle isn't large. My upside down welding skills aren't the greatest, but they should work well. While the car has been on jackstands, the trans fluid started leaking out the speedometer cable for some reason. I had replaced all those seals when I first installed the trans so they shouldn't be bad already. But I purchased new seals for it and will install them next week to keep it from leaking any more.



(56Plym New Headers Installed.jpg)



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Powerflite
Posted 2020-02-07 12:22 AM (#593902 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: RE: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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I'm wrapping up the final assembly on the engine bay now. Getting close to doing the cam break in. I cleaned up these truck valve covers and painted them silver instead of gold to more closely match how Chrysler would have installed one of their motors into a '56 Plymouth, had they done so back then. I also tried to clean up and paint a lot of the engine bay parts & inner fenders, to make it more presentable than it was. Eventually, I'll get to re-painting the air cleaner as well.

It turned out that the trans was leaking through the speedometer gear because the plastic Chevy gear had worn a grove around it that the fluid passed through. So I purchased a new gear with a few less teeth to make the speedometer more accurate and replaced it. It doesn't leak anymore so far, but I won't know for sure until I get more fluid into the trans. The alternator wiring revealed a section of old original wires that had disintegrated insulation on one section so I have to replace that harness before I can go any further. Hopefully I can get it all done & ready to go by the weekend.

Edited by Powerflite 2020-02-07 12:30 AM




(56Plym Engine Assembled.jpg)



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Attachments 56Plym Engine Assembled.jpg (222KB - 44 downloads)
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Powerflite
Posted 2020-06-27 7:54 PM (#600207 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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I broke in the cam quite a while ago and all went well, took it for a drive and was really amazed at how much more power the car has now. Really very impressive just from a valve job, new headers, and cam change. Feels like a whole new car now and really moves when the 4bbls kick in. But I noticed that there was more than acceptable valve train noise coming from the right side of the motor. Because of the virus, I haven't driven it since then. It's just been sitting here waiting for me to need it. But next week, I am planning to take it camping so I decided to tear into the right valve cover and find out what is causing the noise there.

I suspected that some of the lifters were bad and would need to be replaced so I purchased a couple of extras to have on hand. When I tore it apart, I found that there as very little oil flow in the rockers for some reason. So I removed the rockers and found that the head gasket was partially blocking the flow for some reason. I took a long drill and cut through it by hand until I could clear it out. There was some sludge that had built up there too. I took the opportunity to test the lifters with the rockers off. Each lifter seemed tight and I wasn't able to push any of them down with my hands. So I didn't bother to remove the intake & replace any of them.

Afterward, I put the rockers back on and started it up without the valve covers. Air started bubbling at the end of the rocker shaft and blew out quicker with higher rpm. Soon, it filled up and I had oil coming from the rockers as it should. So clearing that head gasket seemed to solve the problem. But I still had quite a bit of valve tappet noise. I measured the gaps between the rockers and it was very large - like around .025" to .028". I wouldn't think it should be more than .005" with hydraulics, correct? It's odd, because if anything, they should be too tight as I removed .005" of material when I surfaced the heads. Anyway, I learned my lesson here. Always purchase the 3/8" adjustable pushrods & lifters. The bigger lifters are a lot cheaper too. Don't bother with using the original stuff. Fortunately, that's what I am doing with my 392 build. I'll have to see about purchasing some adjustables for this one now too to tighten up those clearances.



(56Plym Tappet Noise.jpg)



(56Plym Rocker Bubbles.jpg)



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Attachments 56Plym Tappet Noise.jpg (160KB - 6 downloads)
Attachments 56Plym Rocker Bubbles.jpg (201KB - 6 downloads)
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samstrader
Posted 2020-06-28 9:37 AM (#600231 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth


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This is very interesting and very timely for me Powerflite. I have a 1955 259 V8 Poly head and I have too much slack at my rockers and noise and mine was due to zero oil going to the rockers because my cam bearings were installed wrong for that side. I can totally relate to the blockage from the head gasket and completely understand the problem.

I'm going to order new push rods from Smith Brothers to replace my worn push rods. I have already bought all new rockers from several places and I have a good shaft, so I just need push rods. I think original length push rods might be too short because I think but don't know for sure that the valve stem wore down a little when the engine was running without oil up there. Do you think I should get adjustable push rods made or just some solid rods that are just a little longer. I have not ordered yet because I'm trying to decide what to do to fix it right.

Thanks

Sam
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bbdakota
Posted 2020-06-28 9:54 AM (#600235 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth


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If I'm understanding your post, you have. 025-.028 clearance with hydraulic lifters? In general, I believe hydraulic lifters should have about. 020 preload. I see you had .005 removed from the heads. Did you check the old head gasket thickness compared to the new head gaskets? I ask because my 315 poly still had steel shim gaskets and the composite replacement gaskets were much thicker. I had. 025 taken off the heads just to compensate for gasket thickness difference.
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-06-28 10:34 AM (#600256 - in reply to #600207)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Just checked the original spec on tappet clearance in the 58 Chrysler FSM: 0.060 to 0.210 inches. Huge!





(58ChryslerHydraulicTappetClearance_1.jpg)



(58ChryslerHydraulicTappetClearance_2.jpg)



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Attachments 58ChryslerHydraulicTappetClearance_1.jpg (109KB - 6 downloads)
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Mopar1
Posted 2020-06-28 11:15 AM (#600258 - in reply to #600207)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Powerflite - 2020-06-27 6:54 PM

, and cam change.

I suspected that some of the lifters were bad .
Why would you suspect new lifters would be bad? Unless you reused the old lifters, if so your cam will be destroyed by them. You have to use new lifters.
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Powerflite
Posted 2020-06-28 12:08 PM (#600261 - in reply to #600231)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Sam, I would definitely recommend purchasing adjustable pushrods. That way you can always account for changes from the original length that can occur. The ones that Hot Heads sells only work with later style lifters that use 3/8" pushrods so keep that in mind. I will be looking to try to get some adjustable 5/16" pushrods if I can find any, just so I don't have to replace my lifters at this point.

Scott, yes, I believe you are correct that I need preload with no clearance. What I have is definitely too large. You are also right that the new head gasket is thicker than the original and that may be the cause of most of my problem. What's odd though is that the left side seems to be OK - at least it isn't making any noise.

Dave, that is dry tappet clearance which is when the tappet is completely empty of oil. That's not really relevant here.

George, of course I replaced the lifters with new ones. I'm not that dumb. But I had 2 bad lifters right out of the box, and I used 2 that were marginal. I fully expected those two to be the cause of the problem, but they were holding pressure just fine
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samstrader
Posted 2020-06-29 6:02 AM (#600296 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth


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Thanks Nathan, I'll see if Smith Brothers can make adjustable push rods for my car. I'm calling them tomorrow. Checked my push rod lengths today with a dial micrometer. I don't know the total length but the difference in mine that were damaged and tapping and the ones that were not damaged and not tapping was .010, 10/1000... I'm going to do some more checking tomorrow but you were asking about clearances and this might be one reference point that could help you. I'll also ask Smith Brothers if they can make adjustable push rods in 5/16 diameter rods for you.

Edited by samstrader 2020-06-29 6:03 AM
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22mafeja
Posted 2020-06-29 12:02 PM (#600299 - in reply to #600296)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth


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Once I had annoying valve train noise on a 331 Hemi. It took a while until I understood that my lifters had the oil inlet groove on wrong height so no or very less oil came in to the lifters.
This was cured by widening the groove. This was 1986 or so so I had a good used cam and good used lifters. The engine was in boxes when I bought the car but I didn`t suspect
that the lifters were of wrong model. Nothing is impossible..
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-06-29 12:28 PM (#600300 - in reply to #600261)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Powerflite - 2020-06-28 9:08 AM
Dave, that is dry tappet clearance which is when the tappet is completely empty of oil. That's not really relevant here.


Okay. DUH. Now I know what "Dry Lash" means. Sorry about that. Live and Learn. Too soon old, too late smart.

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Powerflite
Posted 2020-06-29 4:26 PM (#600305 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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I got off the phone with Hot Heads and they are getting me a set of adjustable pushrods with the smaller original style ends on them for my hydraulic lifters. So they can make them.
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Mopar1
Posted 2020-06-29 4:39 PM (#600306 - in reply to #600261)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Powerflite - 2020-06-28 11:08 AM


George, of course I replaced the lifters with new ones. I'm not that dumb. But I had 2 bad lifters right out of the box, and I used 2 that were marginal. I fully expected those two to be the cause of the problem, but they were holding pressure just fine
The way you phrased it I wasn't sure. When I redid my 331 a couple years ago one box had just the lifter body in it!
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Powerflite
Posted 2020-06-29 5:59 PM (#600307 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Yeah, I don't doubt it. Lifter quality has definitely been on the decline. I stay away from Comp Cam lifters too because of all the bad stories I've heard about them.
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samstrader
Posted 2020-06-29 6:16 PM (#600309 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth


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Hi Nathan,

Smith Brothers can make the adjustable lifters for you too. Here's the reply to the question I sent them. I got the lead on Smith Brothers from Hot Heads.

End sizes can vary from engine to engine. And yes, we can build 5/16 adjustable pushrods

Sam
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Powerflite
Posted 2020-06-29 7:21 PM (#600314 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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The tips that go into the lifter on the originals are 1/4" just so there is no confusion. The tip size is what matters more.
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samstrader
Posted 2020-07-01 2:16 PM (#600398 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth


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Hi Nathan,

I talked to Smith Brothers again today. They can't make push rods with a 1/4 inch shaft. The smallest shaft they make is 5/16 inch. But they can put the tips I need on a 5/16 inch shaft. I measured my hole for the push rods and there is plenty of room to put a 5/16 inch shaft so I'm going to order the adjustable push rods. They will have the correct tip and have a 5/16 shaft. The price for the adjustable push rods is about the same as the solid push rod, by the way.

How will you set the length on your adjustable push rods? I guess there are several ways to do it but just wanted to know what you think is the right way to set the adjustment on an adjustable push rod.

Thanks,

Sam
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Powerflite
Posted 2020-07-04 1:45 AM (#600481 - in reply to #600398)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Like I said, it is the tip size that matters even though previously, I was referring to the shaft size. I just received mine today from Hot Heads. They look to be good quality and should solve my problem. As far as the length, I just told Hot Heads what I needed - stock plus .03" and that's what he sent me. I'll try to install them next week. In the meantime, I am having too much fun with my car right now to tear it apart yet.



(Stock 331 Hemi Adjustable Pushrods.jpg)



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Attachments Stock 331 Hemi Adjustable Pushrods.jpg (164KB - 3 downloads)
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Powerflite
Posted 2020-07-04 2:04 AM (#600482 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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I took the car camping at the beach and towed our teardrop trailer with it. We had a lot of fun and the motor worked really well, for most of the trip. Plenty of power and runs really well despite the ticking. But, I neglected to hook up the PCV valve so the dangling hose was sending fun fumes into my cabin as I was driving and the car overheated just as we arrived back home.

I connected the PCV hose up to solve the first problem. Old motors really are much more fun with a PCV despite what some might think. No more stink after that. The overheating seems to have occurred because the replacement freeze plug (o-ring style from Hot Heads) was slightly leaking most of the trip and slowly drained out most of the coolant in the motor until it started to run hot. As we pulled up the long hill toward my house, it didn't have enough coolant left to keep it cool. After cooling off and refilling with coolant, the experience didn't seem to hurt it and the freeze plug seems to have sealed itself shut now as I haven't been able to get it to leak again since refilling it. I'll take it to a non-car show tomorrow and monitor it to see how it goes.

Edited by Powerflite 2020-07-04 2:07 AM




(56Savoy Beach Camp Front.jpg)



(56Savoy Beach Camp Rear.jpg)



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Attachments 56Savoy Beach Camp Front.jpg (228KB - 3 downloads)
Attachments 56Savoy Beach Camp Rear.jpg (256KB - 3 downloads)
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samstrader
Posted 2020-07-04 1:29 PM (#600494 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth


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That sure is a cool and fun set up you have. And a beautiful camping spot too. Looks like a great time in the making.

Thanks for sharing the photo of the adjustable push rods. I can sure see how that is indeed the only way to go. Perfect...
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