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Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth
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1960fury
Posted 2018-03-14 4:31 PM (#559888 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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nice little bomb. have you ever measured 0-60 times?
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-03-14 5:35 PM (#559893 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: RE: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Thanks Sid. No, I haven't taken it to the track at all. The motor has never been rebuilt so it still has the original '55 Imperial cam, rings & 8.5:1 pistons in it. Originally it was rated at 250hp, now with the better intake, exhaust and carburetor, it might be around 270hp, but it has also been running a LONG time. Nevertheless, it will easily break the tires loose from a standstill if you nail it, so it is pretty decent, but not as impressive as other cars that were built for power. I mainly use it to tow my camping trailer around and take it on family outings. The low 1st gear of the 700R4 trans is really nice with a trailer behind you in the mountains, but the 11" disc brakes are a little small for the extra weight. I may end up converting the rear to disc and/or going to 12" rotors in the front to handle it better when fully loaded.



(Teardrop Camping.jpg)



(SavoyTeardrop.jpg)



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Mopar1
Posted 2018-03-15 11:07 AM (#559936 - in reply to #559868)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Powerflite - 2018-03-14 10:00 AM

Hello George, the decal came from Ebay. They have an earlier version of it too for '53-'55.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1956-DODGE-CHRYSLER-PLYMOUTH-DESOTO-IMPERIA...

The Hot Heads won't take the OEM crossover only for the 392. For the 331 or 354, there shouldn't be an issue.
Actually referring to the "331 hemi Head" decal, obviously modeled on the 426 decal.
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-03-15 11:36 AM (#559938 - in reply to #559936)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Mopar1 - 2018-03-15 11:07 AM

Actually referring to the "331 hemi Head" decal, obviously modeled on the 426 decal.


I'm guessing that was a one-off, just like the one I made for my 315 D500 Hemi. I started with a 426 Hemi decal image.


Edited by 56D500boy 2018-03-15 11:38 AM




(DaveFsD500EngineWithFaked315HemiHeadVinylSticker.jpg)



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Mopar1
Posted 2018-03-15 11:49 AM (#559939 - in reply to #559938)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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nice!
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-09-09 11:06 AM (#569848 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: RE: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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I took it to work and took some pictures for the new insurance. Should be much cheaper than what I currently have.



(Savoy At Work.jpg)



(Savoy At Work Rear.jpg)



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57burb
Posted 2018-09-09 11:42 AM (#569851 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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That is a great looking ride, man!
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-09-09 1:51 PM (#569856 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Thanks Danny. I have made some mistakes on it along the way, but I like it and it's a fun car. It has recently developed a backfire problem while under load, so I can no longer take it camping until I get that fixed. But it cruises fine still. I am going to try changing the timing chain to see if that fixes it. This motor has never been touched since new. It still had the original spark plug wires on it until a month ago so it's probable that the chain may be loose now.
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1960fury
Posted 2018-09-09 3:14 PM (#569862 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Great car and a good example that aluminum rims don't have to be tasteless on a 50s car.
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-09-15 12:50 PM (#570146 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: RE: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Thanks Sid, I agree. I wish I had picked 16" instead of 17", but too expensive to change my mind now, so they are staying as-is.

Someone decided that they needed my air cleaner more than I did and stole it from me. Of all the things to steal. What are they going to do with it? I seriously doubt they have a '55-'56 Chrysler product to put it on....but whatever. So now I am making another one. I have a temporary air cleaner on it in the mean time.

This one is heavily dented around the upper edge of it. That's unacceptable because they are usually pretty impossible to fix. However, I cut out the inside of it along the top inner lip and it detached the whole inner structure. I removed the top section of it and notched it at the bottom to be able to remove it from the can. Now I can get inside the outer can, all around to repair the dents. It also allows me to clean up the inner structure to make it look better and allows for better air flow around the filters - especially at the top entrance near the lid. But I will need to create lower mounts to support the tray to the bottom of the can now, and weld them into place. I will also make a flat section to mount to the bottom ring to provide a flat surface for the air filters to sit on instead of the thinner, slanted section that they would have otherwise. I will also try to reduce the carburetor mounting ring extension so the cleaner sits lower than my old one. That was the one thing that bothered me about the way I set up the old one, so this gives me a chance to fix that.



(Oil Bath Cut Out.jpg)



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56D500boy
Posted 2018-09-15 2:10 PM (#570149 - in reply to #570146)
Subject: RE: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Sorry to hear about the theft Nathan.:( You had done a great job on that air cleaner. Much nicer than my oil to paper conversion or my "Ram Air" versions.

Think of it this way, you have the opportunity to make this next one even better.

Yours:



Mine

Oil to paper:





"Ram Air":



Edited by 56D500boy 2018-09-15 2:11 PM
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-03-14 7:04 PM (#579325 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: RE: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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I ended up purchasing another air cleaner from the Turlock swap meet in much better shape than the other one, so I decided to use that one instead. I cut it out and welded in the larger carb mount. This time I welded it in about 3/8" lower than before to make it sit lower on the carb. I had to clearance the bottom of the air cleaner in 3 places as a result, but it wasn't bad. I decided not to paint it yet because it doesn't look terrible as it is. I like how it sits on there now, so I'm happy with it.



(AirCleaner 2.0.jpg)



(56 Chrysler Air Cleaner Lower.jpg)



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Powerflite
Posted 2019-07-14 2:54 AM (#584794 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: RE: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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The motor has been losing power any time it is under load, and then will backfire if you try to push it as well. I have determined that the problem has nothing to do with the ignition or the fuel so it is either a problem with the valves, cam, lifters or timing chain. It has been getting worse and makes it impossible to pull a loaded trailer with the car, which is my primary use for it. So I am tearing it down for a refreshing and will rebuild the top end & replace the cam.

When I pulled the valve covers, I was surprised to see that none of the valves were depressed very much. I can also turn the valve springs by hand and they don't seem to be putting much pressure on the valves. What would cause the valves not to be depressed like that? I pulled the lifters and there was a good amount of wear on them, but no gouging or other major issues. Maybe the lifters were leaking down really fast? Or maybe the wear had reduced the lift to a point that it wasn't opening very far? Could any of that cause backfiring under load?

I put up an easy-up to make ti bearable to work out in 105 degree weather without dying. I had to lift the head with an engine puller too because I don't trust my back to survive such an endeavor. Hemi heads are not to be trifled with.



(56Plym Hemi Head Pull.jpg)



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Powerflite
Posted 2019-07-14 3:31 AM (#584795 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: RE: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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For future reference, this is how I had re-arranged the pipes on the header to make this motor fit well in this car. The upper control arm fits between the two front exhaust pipes so that you can get the motor to sit down low in the engine bay as it should. This is why stock exhaust manifolds don't work well here. Custom pipes are pretty much the only way to go without raising the motor enough to clear the upper control arms. However, this Chinese shorty header dumps straight down as they all do. This requires that you route the exhaust under the steering linkage, giving you something to hit on speed bumps or any time the car bounces when loaded down. Over the course of time, I have flattened mine out pretty good.

So while I am tearing the top end of the motor apart, I am going to build a custom set of long headers, starting from ones made by Patriot Exhaust for a big block in a '57 Chevy. The collector fits along the right side pretty nicely.



(56Plym Shorty Heaader Config Side.jpg)



(56Plym Shorty Heaader Config Front.jpg)



(56Plym Hemi-Chevy Collector.jpg)



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Powerflite
Posted 2019-07-14 3:54 AM (#584797 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: RE: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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These '57 Chevy headers are a nice starting point because the bodies are similarly shaped and it uses 1 7/8" tubes with equal spaced ports like the old hemi does. It also uses thick 16 gauge tubes so they shouldn't be obnoxiously loud when finished. They might fit between the idler arm and the trans if I keep the forward ports lined up, but I am thinking I might shorten the rear-most pipes to turn upward before the idler arm (or lengthen the front ones?). This would give it a lot more room around the idler arm. Looks like the best oil filter with this setup would be one that points forward, not downward as I currently have it.

I wasn't able to remove my old headers without removing the head first. There just isn't a lot of room to get to those inner nuts while it's on the motor. I am a little worried about the assembly sequence for these long headers because I wouldn't be able to assemble them off the car first; they are just too big for that. So I'll have to make sure I can access all the mounting nuts somehow ahead of time. These cylinders have surprisingly little wear to them. I was expecting much worse! The front piston is at TDC, so this is what 8.5:1 compression pistons look like for a 331. I am thinking of milling the heads to gain a compression point if I can get away with that.



(56Plym Hemi-Chevy Header.jpg)



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58coupe
Posted 2019-07-14 12:06 PM (#584809 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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I have seen broken valve springs cause a backfire under load, I suppose if they are very weak it might act the same.
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62 413
Posted 2019-07-14 12:42 PM (#584812 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: RE: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth


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How about a Hemi powered 55 Wagon.



(Picture 350.jpg)



(Picture 354.jpg)



(Picture 351.jpg)



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Mopar1
Posted 2019-07-14 3:05 PM (#584821 - in reply to #584797)
Subject: RE: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Powerflite - 2019-07-14 2:54 AM

I am thinking of milling the heads to gain a compression point if I can get away with that.
Milling effects the valve geometry. I wouldn't mill unless there's a really good reason for it. Live with the 8.5 until it needs a rebuild & then get the higher C/R pistons.
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-07-14 6:09 PM (#584833 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Thanks a lot for the input, Rolland. This thing has me a little baffled so I am looking for answers. The timing chain seems to me to be the most plausible cause, but checking the slack at the distributor by rotating the motor back and forth, it doesn't seem bad enough to cause what I am experiencing.

George, I knew that milling would affect the intake fit, so you can only go so far before you run into trouble, but I would expect that adjustable push rods should take care of the valve timing. Nevertheless, I am a little worried about valve clearances to the pistons if I start milling because even on a flat top piston, the valves can get pretty close to it with the hemi valve angle.

That '55 wagon looks really nice Bill and I am sure it has more than enough power, but I prefer to use a first gen hemi in these cars. Even though my car is obviously not stock, I try to keep most of it *looking* like it could have been built back in the '50's. I haven't always felt this way about the car so my wheels deviate from that goal a little bit, but I find I like it better that way. I would be more tempted to drop a 426 hemi into my '70 Satellite wagon where it would look more at home.
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-07-27 10:56 PM (#585308 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: RE: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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I got to play with my expensive legos today to design the new headers for the right side. I have them mounted in the collector pipes because the head flange is too un-circular to make the connectors work. The 2 rear pipes are currently too close to each other so I need to cut the forward one down and re-adjust the pipes afterward. I am planning to use the legos to get the parts cut and matched to the design, but then check & mark them first under the car before welding it together. I'll start at the back cylinder and move forward as I go. I thought I had a forward facing oil filter to check the fit, but after digging through my stuff, I apparently don't so I'll have to get one soon. I also need to check the idler arm movement before I get too far...



(Right Header Design Bottom.jpg)



(Right Header Design Top.jpg)



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Powerflite
Posted 2019-09-03 1:32 PM (#586982 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: RE: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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I haven't had a lot of motivation to work on this project, probably because of the heat; but I made some progress on it yesterday and got the 2 rear-most pipes tacked down into place. Two down, six to go. Because the design is done, the front two shouldn't take too long, but the trick is to be able to install it without removing the head or lifting the motor first. I think I can achieve that on the right side, but the left is going to be more difficult. Looks like I will be able to use the Chevy & hemi pipes that I cut up and only 2 J-bends for the right side. Maybe only 4 J-bends for the whole set of headers.



(56Plym Right Header 2Rear.jpg)



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56D500boy
Posted 2019-09-03 2:14 PM (#586986 - in reply to #585308)
Subject: RE: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Are you using this? What clever person that was who came up with that.

https://www.trick-tools.com/Icengineworks-1-7-8-inch-Pro-Header-Mode...

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Powerflite
Posted 2019-09-03 3:03 PM (#586989 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: RE: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Yes, but they are too expensive for what they are. I paid $650 for a glorified set of legos. I got the same set as shown in your link but found an older, cheaper price. Can you believe that the price actually went up on these??? Also, it's nice to have a large selection of bends, but if you are piecing it together from J-bends like most home people, there are usually only 1 or 2 radii available to purchase so all those others are just wasted money and garage space. But they have priced it so that buying them in individual packages doesn't save you any money. They do help a whole lot with the design phase of a header build though.

Edited by Powerflite 2019-09-03 7:36 PM
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-09-08 10:36 AM (#587257 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: RE: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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I finished tack welding in the front 2 pipes. The front one was a little more difficult because It had a tendency to want to interfere with the second pipe, but I got it to work well by making a couple of small adjustments. I tried out the forward facing oil filter too, and I can get it on and off, so that's a bonus. The idler arm in the picture is turned to it's worst case position to ensure it doesn't hit the header. Next, I will try to remove the header without moving the head to see if it is possible or what is required to install it. I suspect that I will need to replace the front 2 studs with bolts to make install easier, but I don't really want to do that. In any case these should be a lot easier to install than the shorties that I had on there. Dumping all the pipes inwards makes it impossible to get to the inner bolts without pulling the motor or the head. I really like how this header turned out. It should be a nice improvement from the previous setup. I am thinking I should pay to have the headers coated after I get them done to help them last longer, although I made them out of 16 gauge so they aren't as likely to rust out as cheap headers. I also removed the left side shorty (by pulling the head off with an engine hoist) to start the prep for making a design on that side.

Edited by Powerflite 2019-09-08 10:48 AM




(56Savoy RtHeader Tacked.jpg)



(56Savoy RtHeader Top.jpg)



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Mopar1
Posted 2019-09-08 11:35 AM (#587259 - in reply to #584833)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Powerflite - 2019-07-14 5:09 PM



George, I knew that milling would affect the intake fit, so you can only go so far before you run into trouble,
.
The intake can be milled to fit. It's better to leave the C/R alone or adjust with pistons of higher C/R.
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-09-16 1:23 PM (#587614 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: RE: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Thanks, George, but I am going to leave the bottom end alone because if I have to touch it at all, I am just going to build a 354 and drop it into there. This is a last ditch effort to get this motor to run as well as possible. If I don't like it, it will be pulled & set aside for something else eventually.

The left side exhaust is much more challenging to design well. There isn't any hope to be able to install it without lifting the motor first either so it is much more painful than the right side. The Chevy header that I started with wasn't nearly as ideal of a starting point on the left side either. I had it cut it back almost to the collector, and still, it looks like I will have to place the collector at a small angle instead of horizontal. After it's done, I need to be able to remove the starter as well and hope that it doesn't get heat soaked. Just difficult all around.



(56Ply Left Header Design.jpg)



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Attachments 56Ply Left Header Design.jpg (163KB - 11 downloads)
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-10-01 1:11 PM (#588241 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: RE: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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I've had a lot of trial and error with this header design. It is so tight all over, that each pipe is co-dependent on the design of the others next to it. I used an aluminum head to mock it up so that I didn't have to use the engine puller to lift it out every time I needed to. I had to tack weld my best design of the major part of the front-most pipe to the header in order to make the other lego pipes above it stable enough to design properly, because their weight was causing everything to move around. Also, that pipe comes the closest to the starter so it was more critical and determined where everything else needed to end up. I congratulated myself for giving quite a bit of room around the starter, but that didn't end up being the hard part. The hard part is the 2 rear-most pipes like to share the same space with the steering box. I had to cut the stub at the flange for those as short as I could make them, and this helped a lot, but didn't fix the problem. I was able to barely make it work by bending the rear pipe upward first so that it had more room at the end near the port. But everything is so close around there that I am sure the steering box is going to create its own clearance once the motor vibrates on its mounts. A power steering box doesn't have a chance to work here. Afterward, I had to remove a good portion of the front pipe I had welded, because the pipe next to it needed to bend downward first to be able to enter the port at a better angle. And I'm still not certain I can get this thing in and out without pulling the motor first - even with the head off. The starter definitely has to come off, we'll see how it works out.

I'm just glad I could do this trial and error design in legos. The right side I could have done OK without them, but this one would have been a total nightmare. At one point I was about to give up and make the pipe 2nd to the rear go around the steering box, but I came to my senses and figured out a way to make it work. It would have probably been easier with smaller pipe like 1 5/8" or maybe 1 3/4", but the 1 7/8" is what most of these headers are made to because of the large exhaust port design on the Chrysler hemi. If I would have forseen all the trouble on this side, I probably would have lived with what I had in there. I was tempted at one point to just put it back in.



(56Plym Left Header Design2.jpg)



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56D500boy
Posted 2019-10-01 2:58 PM (#588252 - in reply to #588241)
Subject: RE: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Great work there Nathan. Keep it up.

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56D500boy
Posted 2019-10-05 6:33 PM (#588451 - in reply to #588241)
Subject: RE: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Nathan: You might want to check this one out:

1956 Fury with 392 (since 1958 - according to the story):

http://topclassiccarsforsale.com/plymouth/496166-1956-plymouth-fury...









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Powerflite
Posted 2019-10-07 5:27 PM (#588527 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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I know that car very well. It is owned by Ron Swartley, a long-time member on here, and from the old email server. He did the 392 hemi conversion to it back in the late '50's and raced the car. He used cast iron manifolds and raised the motor up higher to prevent them from hitting the control arms. I like the custom header approach better. Also, the 331 or 354 is shorter so it might make that manifold issue even worse than with the 392.
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57burb
Posted 2019-10-07 6:14 PM (#588530 - in reply to #588527)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Ron is quite a character. His posts are some of my favorites on this site! He had a lot of fun with his '56 Fury(s) and it shows.

http://forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=22218
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-10-10 1:35 PM (#588660 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: RE: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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After redesigning the 2nd to the rear pipe 3 more times, I came to the conclusion that my original design is the best. One of them bent around the steering box more and looked pretty good, but it completely obscured 2 bolts making it very difficult to install them. I welded the header to the frame using the straps that you see and another one at the rear. This keeps it stable to make the designs. Now the 2 rear pipes are finished & tacked into place. Only 2 more to go. These last 2 should be easier to do as there is more room for them.



(56Plym Left Header 2pipes.jpg)



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Powerflite
Posted 2019-10-14 1:38 PM (#588823 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: RE: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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I should be further along than I am because I had to redo the 2nd to the rear pipe. It stuck out too far into the space of the pipe going next to it. My welding wasn't as close as my design was able to put it. So I redesigned it to go up more, to give it more room. I finished that, and then finished the 2nd to the front pipe without any issues. I put the rear-most part of the front pipe back in with some mods as well. I just have the front section of the front pipe to go. I should be able to finish it by the end of the week and then take them all out to finish all the welds on them and weld an oxygen sensor bung into one of the collectors too.



(56Plym Left Header 3pipes.jpg)



(56Plym Left Collector.jpg)



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Attachments 56Plym Left Header 3pipes.jpg (136KB - 5 downloads)
Attachments 56Plym Left Collector.jpg (153KB - 5 downloads)
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-10-17 1:21 PM (#588951 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: RE: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Location: So. California
Finished the last pipe today. Time to take it out and hope that I can get to all the bolts well enough. Once finished, I will take them to get coated. Hopefully that will help prevent issues with the starter. I may try to install a heat sheild over it as well.



(56Plym Left Header Tacked.jpg)



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Attachments 56Plym Left Header Tacked.jpg (138KB - 1 downloads)
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1960fury
Posted 2019-10-17 5:33 PM (#588960 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Very nice, smooth bends. I build headers before (not as complicated as yours) and I know the work involved!!!
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-10-17 5:44 PM (#588961 - in reply to #480421)
Subject: Re: Hemi Powered '56 Plymouth



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Thanks, yeah, a lot of work - about 2 months worth of weekends. I compromised the port exit a little on the 2nd to rear pipe on the left side -above the steering box, but it wasn't nearly as compromised as the big block chevy headers that I cut up. Those port exits were really sharp. I guess it's easier to build them that way.
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