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 Power Seat WIZARD needed...Jump to page : 1 Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
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d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146     Location: bishop, ca | ...In the early Springtime, decided to replace Horrie's worn plastic seat covers, and some under- lying faded upholstery and seat beading. And, as H's power seat 'worked' intermittently, and the seat sorta 'crabbed'-around, instead of moving rectilinear-ly, under power, thought that these repair operations could be presented and coordinated, with minimal down time (right....and after the upholstery work's completion). The seat-covering's repair/rejuvenation proceeded smoothly and uneventfully...UNTIL....the upholstery shop happened to move the seat as far-forward as possible...and in-so-doing, jammed the rubber floor mat into/against the carpeting, so that the seat froze-up and refused to move. Decided to have the seat's proper operation be restored, instead of merely loosening the seat's jamb-up, against/with the carpeting. Again, the upholstery shop didn't jamb-up the seat's operation, "on-purpose".... The seat and car were eventually taken to a 15-mile-away 'dedicated' "auto electrics" repair shop, which I contacted, thinking that they would be "the best" facility to repair the power seat mechanisms. I contacted them, and, then put them into contact with a another, local, 'blacksmith'-type metal fabricating shop, so that the control's internally worn-out and broken[!] brass bushings could be re-manuactured. Turned out that the power seat control module's (four; internal-) brass bushings were damaged and/or warped/and worn-out, from prolonged usage. So, at that point, it was believed that the seat's non-operational condition was 'due to' the internal broken brass bushings, inside the control housing....and/or due to the three 'worn' square-section drive-cables. So, thereafter began a long, drawn-out, back-and-forth series of discussions between the 'bushings' fabrication shop (which did NOTHING to create those needed bushings (besides having, lotsa excuses about being too-busy to get to my project.....and, with another out-of-town Heavy/Industrial Equipment repair shop (which semi-quickly re-made the large, square-section wound-wire control cables for the seat.... and, with the out-of-town "auto-electrics" shop Which brings us, finally(?) to 6/30/15, when 'all' of the above repair work was "completed". Except, that it wasn't "all-done", at all. The seat does NOT move (except, 'wanting/trying' to move forward). Post 6/30, I've stripped-open both of my control modules (including a spare module) and have found nothing obviously defective in either one. My 'Auto Electrics' repair shop states that I should have paid the $400.00 to Mitchell Automotive, last week, for a re-conditioned switch assembly that Mitchell was, then, selling on EvilPay.. Last week, didn't realize how much that I needed to spend $400bux ...in order to rule-out a variable in the search for an operational power seat switch. And, speaking of rip-offs, my Auto Electrics shop (the 'lead' repair shop)...charged me $1,600.00bux!! (16 hrs @ $100.00) to do very-LITTLE, actual-PRODUCTIVE work. But, as its owner is (effectively-) retired, and working out of his rural ranch-house, nothing was said, in advance about his repair work's billing....and, I just wanted to get this project completed...so I got nothing to show or prove about being ripped off, on the billing. OK, so here's the present (and future) status of this dope-deal: I've got a non-operational seat, which, the auto-electronics shop was able to position in a reasonably accommodative attitude-orientation. Got GOOD condition internal brass bushings installed....a major 'sticking' point, in delaying the completion of this project...but, found to be serving or providing no real net benefits to the repair of the power seat's operation. Its motor CAN make-noise, but the seat doesn't move (except forward...and that's NOT a good position, to have to 'play' with, on a power seat!) The Auto Electrics shop advises that it did not (try to) overhaul the (three-) solenoids...and insists that the seat's non-op condition is related to the CONTROL module(s) , because its only effective operation is to move the seat forward, even from a switch position that would, otherwise, move the seat in ANOTHER direction, from forward. BTW, great credit, to date, goes to Greg Conomis (GregCon on this site)..for his having lent/loaned/rented a wrecking yard quality power seat assembly, for my "repair parts" searchings, and availability research. We will have to settle up on the value of the those parts, soon. But, the net effect of this (or)deal is: plenty of money being spent on/for no real, tangible results. As per the Auto Electrics theory: I'd like to test-run a known-operational power seat switch, to confirm or to rule out any contribution to the failure-to-operate, by the seat switch. Otherwise, I'm stuck with a decently-positioned (for a short-ish driver) non-operational power seat. Here's a few pics of H.'s partially disassembled front seat (to prove that I'm not B.S.'ing y'all), and, the NICE-looking new clear plasitic seat covers (this is Horrie's THIRD set, since 1980-ish) Edited by d500neil 2015-07-02 2:20 AM (PICT4989.JPG) (PICT4991.JPG) (PICT4992.JPG) (PICT4993.JPG) Attachments ----------------  PICT4989.JPG (162KB - 141 downloads) PICT4991.JPG (163KB - 149 downloads) PICT4992.JPG (143KB - 130 downloads) PICT4993.JPG (163KB - 150 downloads) | ||
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| ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8443  Location: Perth Australia | |||
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| d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | |||
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| GregCon |
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Expert Posts: 2524  Location: Houston | |||
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| ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8443 Location: Perth Australia | |||
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| d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | Here are the schematics. Again, the wire CONNECTIONS (color-coordinated) are not mixed up, to the switch.. too much/too many playings with the two switches that I do have, plus another cut-off back-plate (with OEM wire-ends attached to it) Right now, the switch only tells the motor to move forward...and that's NOT a good situation. The safest thing (if the seat can't be fixed) is to leave the seat alone, and mildly suffer through a fixed-seating position that can accommodate both the wife & me. (If Momma ain't happy; ain't NOBODY happy). (PICT5006.JPG) (PICT5007.JPG) (PICT5008.JPG) (PICT5009.JPG) Attachments ---------------- PICT5006.JPG (114KB - 150 downloads) PICT5007.JPG (125KB - 143 downloads) PICT5008.JPG (167KB - 159 downloads) PICT5009.JPG (142KB - 171 downloads) | ||
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| LD3 Greg |
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Expert Posts: 1906 Location: Ontario, Canada | |||
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| d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | The relays and solenoids are the only two mechanical aspects on my seat that haven't been overhauled, this year. From (WAY-) past recollection, the solenoids are fascinating to watch, in operation. Although the seat's movements were erratic (apparently due to the worn square-cut, wound, control cables and/or due to the worn/warped internal brass control-bushings), the seat did move (reluctantly!) in the proper directions, and the seat sort of 'crabbed' in its movements....BEFORE I had my repair shop(s) (tried-to) "fix" the power seat's operation. Now, as previously mentioned, the seat only wants to move forward (shades of Christine!) I guess that I could (somehow----accent on "how-") bench test the nasty-spare relay/solenoid components, to confirm their operational status. My existing seat-motor seems to be making all of the proper noises, so, it is not a Prime Suspect, in this mystery. I'd be glad to send out the motor/solenoids/relay for an electrical check out, but, I'd like to open up the solenoids to service them, because it is the solenoids that do the work of engaging/controlling the seat movements. Pretty sure that the solenoids CAN be opened up, for servicing... Pretty pictures, huh; but, HEY..if the(se) parts WORK...! I'm still thinking that the current (pun intended) problem may be in the (worn-out/dry?) solenoids??? Edited by d500neil 2015-07-04 3:04 PM (PICT5010.JPG) (PICT5011.JPG) Attachments ---------------- PICT5010.JPG (166KB - 173 downloads) PICT5011.JPG (171KB - 141 downloads) | ||
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| d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | The sad and frustrating aspect about servicing the 1957 MoPar power seat is the PITA procedures involved in RE-installing the power seat assembly, and its plastic housing-base (see how NICE Horrie's seat base is, now? You're looking at at least .5 hour in cussing and trial-fitting/screwing (trying to find the hidden screw-mounting frame-holes, for the newly-installed plastic seat covers) in order to attach the plastic base to the seat frame... along with the rubber seat-bushings-spacers.....and, THIS, with the plastic bases having been previously installed into a power seat. A MAJOR problem is positioning the plastic housing so that the seat back does not contact-and-damage the housing, when the seat back is retracted. You can see the large 'rubber' seat spacers in the attached photo. A really Jury-rigged OEM installation.... 58+ power seats are a no-brainer to install. Edited by d500neil 2015-07-04 3:02 PM (PICT5001.JPG) Attachments ---------------- PICT5001.JPG (137KB - 188 downloads) | ||
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| LD3 Greg |
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Expert Posts: 1906 Location: Ontario, Canada | As you slowly, carefully move the switch towards any of its function spots(up, down, back, and forth) etc you can hear and feel the solenoid "slam" open and then closed. That is one clue as to whether or not the solenoid is working. I don't know whether the power to operate solenoid comes from the switch or relay. Check out this pic. The arrow points to a blob of solder and you can see a tiny piece of wire in the solder. The wire is from the solenoid and must be grounded to the case. To take it all apart you need to melt the solder, do your thing and re solder it back without burning anything inside!! CAREFULLY! Or, check for continuity between the terminal tab and the case. As you move your switch fore and aft hook a test light to the "horizontal" solenoid wire and see if the light comes on. Just a bunch of clues. I'm a great one to talk. The seat in my regal won't go fore or aft either. I had the seat out last fall and it worked fine on the shop floor. When I reinstalled the seat it didn't! Right now I really don't care and haven't even looked at it. Greg (image.jpg) Attachments ---------------- image.jpg (145KB - 157 downloads) | ||
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| GregCon |
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Expert Posts: 2524 Location: Houston | As mentioned, I rebuilt the seats in my 66 Fury and while the tracks are different, the motor and solenoids look very similar if the the same. On reassembly, everything worked as intended. I did 100% of the work myself but I have also forgotten 99% of whatever it was I did. I guess what I'm saying is the 60's mopars might be a more ready parts source. (Seat parts.jpg) (power seat poster.jpg) Attachments ---------------- Seat parts.jpg (175KB - 151 downloads) power seat poster.jpg (83KB - 185 downloads) | ||
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| ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8443 Location: Perth Australia | Neil, it appears to be the same as a 60 plymouth one, so here are some test procedures from my service manual One thing I noticed as I glanced over it was the note to not run the motor without the seat connected otherwise you mess up the synchronization This may be where your problem lies I have heard people say the 57 service manual wasnt that good, so I am not sure you have this in yours? (seat1.JPG) (seat2.JPG) (seat3.JPG) Attachments ---------------- seat1.JPG (172KB - 142 downloads) seat2.JPG (140KB - 120 downloads) seat3.JPG (188KB - 165 downloads) | ||
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| LD3 Greg |
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Expert Posts: 1906 Location: Ontario, Canada | Thanks Mick, Seat inoperative (motor runs). The "number 10" wire referred to is the 10ga power feed wire. Greg (image.jpg) Attachments ---------------- image.jpg (111KB - 126 downloads) | ||
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| d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | |||
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| d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | |||
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| ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8443 Location: Perth Australia | |||
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| d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | I DID test the operation of two complete 'sets'/assemblies of power seat controls (as seen in my photos, above and as discussed, in detail...) and both switch-controls malfunctioned in the SAME manner. So, why did I spend MORE moolah, to prove the SAME outcome? So that I can, definitively rule-out the SWITCH (-controls) as being the cause of the seat's malfunctioning....or not. My Auto Electric shop believes that my seat's (virtually-) non-operational status is related to the seat switch (which I HIGHLY doubt, due to my own inspection and cleaning/testing of TWO other seat switch assemblies. I'm running out of variables (read: "NEW or reconditioned parts") that have NOW been installed in my seat assembly; don't ask about their PRICING...)....SO: the: "Power Seat Control Variable" will cost me $180.00bux to resolve. The remaining (un-tested, yet) "seat electrics variables" (alluded-to, by Mick, above....) consist of examining the existing grody-condition spare-parts : relay, solenoids, and motor (altho the presently-existing, installed-in-car, power seat motor appears to be working fine. Here's the nasty-condition, OEM, Gang-of-Three /spare parts assembly (-again....) that I'll be stripping-and-cleaning, soon. Edited by d500neil 2015-07-05 9:18 PM (PICT5023.JPG) Attachments ---------------- PICT5023.JPG (177KB - 138 downloads) | ||
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| 60 Imp |
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Location: North Australia | |||
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| d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | |||
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| d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | |||
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| ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8443 Location: Perth Australia | |||
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| 60 Imp |
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Location: North Australia | |||
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| d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | |||
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| ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8443 Location: Perth Australia | The only way that I can see it moving in one direction from operating the switch for another direction is stuck solenoid or the internals of the gearbox or both I think fully rebuilding this motor assembly is the go I dont get (just re read your original post) how you could have the bushings for the gearbox replaced (so the whole thing was out) and re assembled and the solenoids NOT tested or the operation of the motor assembly? As I said, I havnt fixed one of these (yet) and some of the small motor functions they did (like how the wipers park) is really weird, but its electrical operation doesnt look that difficult to work out I can understand the labour amount if they were doing a lot to it or they had no idea what they were doing and had to "learn" the system (I have to do this from time to time, no sparky is born knowing it all  ) Did you offer, or give them your workshop manual? I still dont understand why they would tell you to buy a new switch assembly, then tell you the motor assembly is crook when they have just repaired it? | ||
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| d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | Well......EIGHT hours later, here's how the power seat motor/Relay assemblies look! Too afraid (and tired) to put power to this/these assemblies...probably manana. Note the screws securing the 'nose' section to the body of the motor...they'll come off, soon, for inspection and repair. Yeah, my electrical shop (essentially) says that it has 16 labor hours in investigating and attempting to repair the existing power seat assembly.....at $100.00/hour!...which rate was never discussed, at any time...my BAD! And, that shop did not take apart, or otherwise test, the Solenoids or the Relay (SO, if I end-up overhauling the Solenoids---probably can't do much to O/H the Relay???)....then, I'll have some real, free Sweat-Equity incurred in this project. I'm thinking about taking the cleaned assemblies to another local commercial electrician, and asking him to test the operation of the relay and the solenoids AS-IS, right now.....OR....biting the Big Hormel...and disassembling the solenoids FIRST (which is what I should do, because they GOTTA be dried out/worn etc!) I got nothing (more-) to lose, and those solenoids' internals probably resemble an artifact from the Sahara Desert... The black control-switch is one of my two spare assemblies; the NORS-overhauled switch-control, that I just bought via Evilpay, has not yet arrived. Edited by d500neil 2015-07-07 8:58 PM (PICT5010.JPG) (PICT5046.JPG) (PICT5033.JPG) (PICT5039.JPG) (PICT5047.JPG) (PICT5043.JPG) (PICT5046.JPG) Attachments ---------------- PICT5010.JPG (166KB - 192 downloads) PICT5046.JPG (141KB - 153 downloads) PICT5033.JPG (172KB - 131 downloads) PICT5039.JPG (164KB - 125 downloads) PICT5047.JPG (155KB - 121 downloads) PICT5043.JPG (152KB - 164 downloads) PICT5046.JPG (141KB - 146 downloads) | ||
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| d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | |||
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| ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8443 Location: Perth Australia | |||
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| d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | Well, today was a day, was a DAY. I wasted hours trying to re-attach the outer lid/cover of the motor control....the WRONG way.... (sort of like a carpenter complaining that, no matter how many times that he cuts a piece of wood, the piece is STILL too short! Anyway, finally tried a counter-intuitive effort (involving the steel contact/pressure-rings being installed seemingly bass-ackwards...but, the lid DID close properly, that way. The interior of the control assembly was, remarkably, still very well lubricated, and apparently fully functional. Tomorrow, I'll clean and lube the motor-connection area. Edited by d500neil 2015-07-08 11:52 PM (PICT5049.JPG) (PICT5050.JPG) (PICT5052.JPG) (PICT5053.JPG) (PICT5054.JPG) (PICT5055.JPG) (PICT5057.JPG) (PICT5058.JPG) (PICT5059.JPG) (PICT5064.JPG) (PICT5066.JPG) (PICT5067.JPG) Attachments ---------------- PICT5049.JPG (162KB - 134 downloads) PICT5050.JPG (163KB - 165 downloads) PICT5052.JPG (162KB - 142 downloads) PICT5053.JPG (162KB - 169 downloads) PICT5054.JPG (162KB - 117 downloads) PICT5055.JPG (161KB - 160 downloads) PICT5057.JPG (166KB - 175 downloads) PICT5058.JPG (154KB - 126 downloads) PICT5059.JPG (153KB - 103 downloads) PICT5064.JPG (161KB - 131 downloads) PICT5066.JPG (166KB - 130 downloads) PICT5067.JPG (156KB - 133 downloads) | ||
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| ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8443 Location: Perth Australia | LMAO Neil, thats about the dirtiest I have ever seen your hands Not good for an insurance evaluator  | ||
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| d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | |||
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| d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | Well, TODAY, There's not much to see, when the motor is removed from the assembly, for its condition-inspection.. The round black disc appears to be a rubber clutch mechanism. The Relay's operational condition is still an unknown. SO, at this point, think that the power seat control is finally cleaned and lubed to the point that it can be taken to a local electrician for a proper operational check-out. Right now, the motor, when removed, 'turns', so it is not mechanically frozen, but, confirmed, today, that the internal gearset (See yesterday) does not want to rotate, so...a further opening-up of the gearset is probably required. But, at least, we're beginning to come down the homestretch, on finding out how well this Bad Boy may operate. Think I'll wait for the 'new' control's EvilBay-arrival before handing this control over to an electrician, for his comprehensive inspection & checkout of this guy's operation. Edited by d500neil 2015-07-09 6:43 PM (PICT5075.JPG) (PICT5076.JPG) (PICT5077.JPG) Attachments ---------------- PICT5075.JPG (166KB - 168 downloads) PICT5076.JPG (166KB - 130 downloads) PICT5077.JPG (165KB - 108 downloads) | ||
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| LD3 Greg |
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Expert Posts: 1906 Location: Ontario, Canada | |||
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| ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8443 Location: Perth Australia | |||
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| sermey |
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Expert Posts: 1208 Location: SWITZERLAND | |||
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| d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | |||
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| d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | |||
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| d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | Well....my photo records show that the first pics (documenting the installation of new-plastic seat recoverings) occurred between 4/30/15 - 5/4/15. The 'mechanical' (power seat SNAFU) repair work occurred between 5/18/15 - 7/3/15. 2 1/2 months, that seemed like an eternity. The re-built power seat switch assembly ($180.00 bux) seems to have been the final solution to/in the repair of the power seat's non-operation. Still am working on the 'spare' power seat assembly, though... Edited by d500neil 2015-07-15 4:53 AM (PICT5112.JPG) (PICT5118.JPG) Attachments ---------------- PICT5112.JPG (145KB - 125 downloads) PICT5118.JPG (163KB - 140 downloads) | ||
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