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Location: So. Cal | The discussion about the Chrysler 300's being Chrysler's top performance cars got me thinking if they really were. So I decided to compile a list and figure out which forward look car really was the best performer. I have based it completely on Power/Weight ratio because most calculations use power more than torque. I arranged them from best to worst and used the shipping weight rather than the curb weight because it is a more consistent number between the cars and would be better for comparison. We all know that the actual torque curve matters more than just a top power number, but this should give a pretty good indication anyway.
And results show that the top Dodge is the top dog on the list. In fact, the Dodge cars make a very good showing. If it weren't for the Gran Tourismo versions of the 300F & G, they would otherwise dominate the top 4 spots. It is also interesting that the 300D beats out the standard 300F & G, although in reality, that 495 ft-lbs of torque would get the F moving faster than the hemi motor would.
Let me know if you think I have incorrect numbers or if I excluded a car that should be here. I didn't include some cars that would obviously be slower like a 300C compared to a 300D etc.
Edited by Powerflite 2015-07-07 6:30 PM
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Los Angeles, California | Just curious, only one Plymouth made it into this list? I wonder exactly how the 383 ram induction '60 Desoto would do, or the EFI's fitted to '58 cars. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 363
| So where are the stick 390 HP C's and D's which most had no power accessories, power steer, windows,seat, radio etc and the stck trans is a 1/3 weight of the TF....... I'm not sure what they weigh in at, but it would be significantly less than standard.
It's very hard to get an accurate chart on power to weight ratios because there were so many variances in options.
I suppose speed over a measured distance would be more consistent, but even then there are variables.
Interesting chart though.
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Expert 5K+
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Location: So. Cal | I didn't include the DeSoto's mainly because they are about the same weight as the Chrysler and typically have lower power. If that isn't true, let me know and I will try to stick them up there. I didn't include the fuel injected cars because they didn't really work well. What other plymouth should I have included? |
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| Power --
Let me add my two cents at this point:
1. The '60 and '61 ram-inducted 383s of both Dodge and Plymouth were rated at 330 horsepower. I think this rating is a bit deceiving as the '59 DeSoto 383 with 2X4V carburation (but on a conventional in-line manifold) was listed at 350 horses, while the '59 Dodge D-500 supposedly had only 345. Whether in DeSoto, Dodge, or Plymouth, all were identical since all were made by Dodge.
2. Another point, if the ram 383 has 93% of the displacement of the ram 413, it should develop 93% of the horsepower of the 413, since the cam, pistons, and carbs were/are basically same. This 93% equates to some 350-360 ponies or roughly the same as the normally aspirated '59 engines. I have heard it was more or less the result of corporate politics in that the Chrysler people didn't like the idea of the lowly Darts and Plymmers having available engines with almost as much power as the "Letter" cars.
3. In 1958, the Dodge Super D-500, 361 CID with 2X4V carbs, was advertised at 320 HP, as was their ram-inducted '60 361. Plymouth's 1960 361 supposedly had only 310. Thus, since the 361 is 87% the size of the 413 , so the ram 361 should have about 325 horsepower, which rather consistent with '58's 320. Once more, Dodge made these engines.
4. There is nothing more to choose from regarding the '60 and '61 Plymouths and Darts, except for styling. In fact, when the Ramchargers made their move to get into the S/S class in '61, they first approahed Plymouth since their newest member, Elton ("Al") Eckstrand campaigned Plymouths in 1959 and 1960, winning his classes both years. At the 1960 NHRA Nationals Stock Eliminator final, he narrowly lost to a '60 Poncho piloted by Jim Wangers of GTO fame (and those Royal Oak "Bobcats" were pulling about 370 HP). According to Jim Thornton, Plymouth didn't want its name sullied by the greasy T-shirt boys so the division turned them down, but soon afters, a '61 Dart Pioneer showed up and this is the car that brought them to prominence. In my chats with Jim, he didn't know if the car showed up with the 413 already in or it became a "Dealer Installed Option," but Darryl Davis insisted no 413 came off the Plymouth or Dart production line with the 413 already in it.
5. There were also numerous other tricks of the trade, such has using an RB 383 and cutting out the interior passages of the long rams to get the higher revving short passages.
I guess I put in more than two cents, more like a nickel's worth, but there it is.
Joe Godec |
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Location: Perth Australia | 1960 plymouth X ram?
60 dodge ram car would be about the same?
Inline duel quad plymouths
Sort of thinking of the smaller bodied cars with the top range engines
Although, most of them would have been in the top lines of the models, which means more weight
Scary list to attempt to make, If we were all standing face to face having this discussion, I could see the grudge match racing already 
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Location: So. Cal | Joe,
Good point about the Plymouth vs. Dodge vs. DeSoto ratings. I agree with you that they were the same motor as long as they used the same part numbers for the cam, carb, pistons & distributors, which seems likely. |
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| Power --
Not necessarily ALL the same part numbers as quite obviously there were different size pistons and differing lengths of pushrods, but the basic component designs were similar. About the only real kicker in the equation is the 413 of the 300F Specials, the 400 HP 413s run at Daytona; these had the "short" long ram tubes (internal passages were divided only for about 15"), special cams, solid lifters, and the French Pont-a-Mousson 4-speed manual trans.
I had thought that Al Eckstrand had used the 300F Special short rams on his '60 Fury, but according to Darrell Davis he modified the long ones by cutting the tops off, cutting away some 15 or so inches of the internal walls, and then welding the tops back on. The NHRA and the AHRA allowed considerable leeway in modifying engines in 1960, but internal parts had to be factory stock. They did let us get away with altered exhaust systems such steel tubing exhaust headers, but they were pretty strict about special internal equipment. I think the cutting away of the internal wall of the ram tubes was allowed under the "Engine Blueprinting" rules which also permitted such things as porting and polishing. I don't know if he polished the interior of the tubes as there are two contradictory lines of thought on that: one being that the rough interior walls facilitated a certain amount of turbulence which improved the fuel-air mixture and the other that the rough walls impeded the rapid movement of the fuel-air mixture into the combustion chamber.
Incidentally, in 1959, Eckstrand had a factory shop fabricate a '59 Plymouth Fury 300 with the 300E 413 in it. He even had roundels with 300 Fury put on the rear fins. The NHRA didn't buy that, so he went and got his mother's '59 wagon with the 361 Golden Commando and took his class with that car.
Jim Wangers was working for Plymouth in 1957 and had plans to get a "Black Fury" into competition in 1958, but Bunky Knudson kidnapped over to Pontiac.
Joe |
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Veteran
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Location: Dunnellon, FL | You can get this information from the NHRA Stock Car Classification guide, though it only goes back to 1960 for Plymouth and Dodge or 1961 for Chrysler:
http://www.nhra.com/competition/classification.aspx
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Location: So. Cal | Interesting. They list a 340 hp 383 motor for a '61 Plymouth. Does anyone know where that comes from? Also, they list a 413 for the Plymouth for some reason. Do you know if those weights they use are shipping or curb weights? |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: So. Cal | I have expanded the list to include what I am able to find. Some of the Plymouth weights are hard to find and less reliable. I'm not sure I trust that a '58 Fury is that much lighter than a '57 Fury. I didn't include Plymouth for 1960 or 1961 yet. I use the lowest shipping weight option that is available so most are specified with 3speed manual transmissions unless that wasn't an option. I was wrong about the 300D being faster than the 300C. I didn't realize the C was that much lighter, although all the letter cars from C through G are nearly the same in terms of power/weight.
There is also a HUGE jump in performance from 1955 to 1956 across the board, except for Chrysler. The best '55 Dodge went from a factor of 17.1 to 11.5 for their best in '56.
Edit: The 270 super red ram should be 4bbl not 2bbl.
Edited by Powerflite 2015-07-08 4:29 AM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Way-down on this thread, for the 6/30/15 posting, is a TRUE listing of the 1956 Dodge & Chrysler
engine performance, as recorded by Kiekaefer's dynamometer.
http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=28504&...
Kiekaefer's dynomometer results:
1956 D-500-1; 330 HP @ 5610 RPM
300B: 354 HP @ 5400 RPM
D501: 369 HP @ 5530 RPM
300C: 385 HP @ 5600 RPM
Of course, these are NOT power: weight considerations...the 300C weighed a LOT more than did a 'stripper'
D501 sedan.
Edited by d500neil 2015-07-08 5:14 AM
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Location: Dunnellon, FL | Powerflite - 2015-07-08 2:58 AM
Interesting. They list a 340 hp 383 motor for a '61 Plymouth. Does anyone know where that comes from? Also, they list a 413 for the Plymouth for some reason. Do you know if those weights they use are shipping or curb weights?
The 340 hp 383 is a longram engine with the 'short' longrams. The 413 was an option in 1961. Weights are shipping weights. You can get the engine specs here:
http://www.nhraracer.com/content/general.asp?articleid=46634&zoneid...
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Expert
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Location: Alaska | Having owned and driven 57-58 Plymouths with both the 305 hp 350 and 305 hp 361, I have always felt these engines were under rated because of internal politics. I first ran the 361 in a 60 Ply. 2 dr. sedan with a manual 3 speed (lightest body style), sorry never weighed my cars. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Why is go-fast discussed ad nauseum by car buffs ? Is it some sort of
twist on basic human nature ? What about charm and character ? I try
to engage this crew on the subject of aesthetics and design and all I get
is defensive retort.
For what it's worth, a 57 Fireflite coupe resting at the curb looks 100x
faster than any Forward Look car really was. Isn't that what really matters ? 
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| Power --
A 340 horse 383 was also listed for the '60 Plymouths as well but Neither Darryl Davis (a former executive of the Chrysler Corporation and an active member of the Chrysler Historical Society) nor I could ever find any information that such a critter ever came off either the Dart or Plymouth lines. He has convinced me that perhaps there may have been some early discussion about the possibility of using the '59 DeSoto and Dodge 383 2X4V setups, but they never came to fruition. In the 1959 model year, a number of Plymouth dealers wanted to use surplus 350 CID 2X4V manifolds on the '59 361, but evidently neither Chrysler nor the racing bodies bought off on that. In 1961, all the racing organizations authorized "Dealer Installed" parts, so that 340 HP/383 would have been legit that year. Mr. Davis meticulously went through all the Chrysler production records and identified all '60-'61 ram-inducted Darts, Dodges, and Plymouths by VIN, model, option, and production plant. Interestingly, only 54 325 horse 383s "Police Specials" were produced in 1960 and of these, only 10 went to police departments while at least two went to Lee and Richard Petty.
The '61 413 Dart Pioneer raced by the Ramchargers had some interesting "Dealer Installed" parts such as the 413 CID mill itself with the modified (read "shortened) long rams,Forged-True pistons, 12.5/1 or 13/1 compression, a 292 degree cam, solid lifters, a wild steel tube exhaust system (the exhaust tubes went straight out from the exhaust ports through the fender wells and looped over the front wheels dumping out just in front of the door), and (I think) a Mallory ignition system.
In those days, classes were established using the ratio of advertised horsepower into shipping weights.
Another interesting point, the 300C was the only letter car that did not exceed the speed of its immediate predecessor on Daytona Beach. The 300B driven by Tim Flock averaged 139.373, but the best the C could do the next year was 134.1. Two things contributed to this: the first was the poor condition of the sand and the second was the hooded headlights and visored windshield. On Chrysler's paved test track and with nothing more sophisticated as simple modeling clay fairing the headlights and windshield, the car hit 145.5. The 139.373 of the B stood as the record until the 300F Specials went 144.927.
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The high-performance 390HP package actually ran 2 years for both 300C & 300D. The weights on the "chassis package" cars should be the same on both C&Ds. Darn Owen...
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Location: northern germany | Sonoramic60 - 2015-07-08 1:48 PM
Power --
A 340 horse 383 was also listed for the '60 Plymouths as well but Neither Darryl Davis (a former executive of the Chrysler Corporation and an active member of the Chrysler Historical Society) nor I could ever find any information that such a critter ever came off either the Dart or Plymouth lines. He has convinced me that perhaps there may have been some early discussion about the possibility of using the '59 DeSoto and Dodge 383 2X4V setups, but they never came to fruition.
Joe
Joe, the inline 2x4's was a regular option for 60 plymouths. like the 1x4bbl called golden commando. i understand the 2x4bbl set up used on 60 plymouths were identical with 1959 dodge/desoto 2x4s.
you are right that the 383 was underrated by the factory. it should deliver AT LEAST 93% of the 413 output. the low deck is the better engine and better suited for high rpms. only the smaller/lighter crankshaft with smaller journals should give a couple extra hp. it also has less rod angle and better bore/stroke ratio and slower piston speed. |
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Extreme Veteran
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| Hyfire - 2015-07-08 5:05 PM
The high-performance 390HP package actually ran 2 years for both 300C & 300D. The weights on the "chassis package" cars should be the same on both C&Ds. Darn Owen...
Hey Josh, I believe the front bumper brackets are slightly longer on a D, so technically the C would be faster and lighter
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| ram300 - 2015-07-08 6:21 PM Hyfire - 2015-07-08 5:05 PM The high-performance 390HP package actually ran 2 years for both 300C & 300D. The weights on the "chassis package" cars should be the same on both C&Ds. Darn Owen... Hey Josh, I believe the front bumper brackets are slightly longer on a D, so technically the C would be faster and lighter :laugh: Owen, Half of the 300D chassis package cars came with a factory heater delete... so I think "technically" the 300D is lighter and probably faster.... Nice stretch huh? My paint is a lot thinner too.... at least in the spots that are rusty. ;0) .
Edited by Hyfire 2015-07-09 11:02 AM
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Location: Jamaica Plain, MA | Wow. Just wow. It's 756 W vs 1:35 (1FP) (J)oules (or foot-pounds)-- (we use "pound-feet," now), and the equation is almost the same, the difference would take me 500 more words to explain-- it's (watts and torque) as applied to mass (M).-- Eventually, this stuff is about the size of your tool versus how you use it. Our favorite old cars were deathtraps in high-speed crashes, they were terrible insofar as pollution, BUT they did perform better then the competition at the time, and only now do new cars beat the raw power output our cars made until 1971-2. But, who the eff cares? Everyone knows that MoPars were the most badass. The consensus from my fellow engineers isn't based on my esthetics, -- a stripped down 59 Plymouth 2 door club sedan with the 395 (361) Golden Commando, single AFB motor could actually beat every other stock MoPar of the FL span of time-- in the quarter mile and flying QM. But, who cares? A 57 Plymouth is cooler, a 300 G is the daddy of power and finish, and the DeSotos were the coolest of all. |
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Location: Branson, MO | Re: 340HP 383 in the early '60s
For what it's worth, back in 1963, I successfully drag raced a '63 Plymouth 383 Golden Commando in B Stock Automatic (B/SA). I put a 2X4 barrel in-line intake and carbs on it and jumped to A/SA. Somewhere there must've been information regarding this setup as being available so NHRA sanctioned/approved it. However, it was rated at 343HP according to the "books". The car was only marginally faster with the 2 fours so I went back to the single four. The best it turned back then was 13.57 seconds in just under 100 MPH in the quarter with the single four. This was at US 131 Dragway in Michigan and it just so happened that Al Eckstrand was there with his "LAWMAN" station wagon. I later bought a 426 stage III wedge from him for my '64 Belvedere 2HT aluminum front end S/SA that ran in the 11.2s.
"it's delightful, it's delovely, it's DeSoto"
Edited by Viper Guy 2015-07-09 9:34 AM
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Posts: 1287
| Sid --
I really have to disagree about the inline 2X4V carbs being a regular option on the '60 Plymouth or Dodge. Mr. Davis and I have discussed the issue extensively and he very steadfastly maintains there were none that came off any of the assembly lines in the 1960 model year. I must go with his assessment as he when he retired from Chrysler as Senior Vice President of Global Service and Parts, he was presented with the last Plymouth to come of the line. Currently, he is a member of the advisory board of the now closed Walter P. Chrysler Museum and has showed cars such as his two '63 Sport Furys at Meadowbrook, Amelia Island, and Pebble Beach. He and Eckstrand were good friends and even raced their '60 Furys against each other. His book, "The 1960 Plymouth Sonoramic Commando Guide," is the product of extensive research of Chrysler records and since each 361 and 383 SonoRamic Commando and 383 Golden Commando car is identified by VIN, model, body style, option, and production plant, it is quite thick. A few 2X4V '60s may have been around, but I have to believe they were either special "999" codes or dealer products.
JT --
The only way a stripped down '60 Savoy equipped with the 305 horse 361 could beat a ram Fury would be if the two were in a drag race, the Fury had 2.93 gears and the Savoy had 4.56s; if it were the flying mile, the gearing would have be the opposite. The slight difference in weight between the two cars (a Savoy 2-dr post came at 3500 lbs., while the Fury was just 35 pounds heavier) would never compensate for the difference in horsepower -- either 25 using the factory specs or perhaps 45-55 using my theory. From my own experience, limited of course, I only lost once to a Savoy and that was when I still had 2.93s. We can also look at the record of the 300F Specials at Daytona and Pettys use of 2-dr H/Ts. I'm sure that if a 361 Savoy were as fast as you suggest, the Chrysler engineers, the Pettys, and Ecstrand would have used them.
Joe |
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Location: Indiana | Sonoramic60 - 2015-07-09 2:51 PM
We can also look at the record of the 300F Specials at Daytona and Pettys use of 2-dr H/Ts. I'm sure that if a 361 Savoy were as fast as you suggest, the Chrysler engineers, the Pettys, and Ecstrand would have used them.
Joe
i'm not so sure about that...
back then there was a MAJOR 'pecking order'...
and wasn't the Savoy (back then) thought of as nothing more than a "cheap man's Fury"? |
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Posts: 1287
| FWDL --
Nope, the Savoy was the bottom of the line, just 2- and 4-dr SEE-dans and 6-passenger station wagons. The next up was the Belvedere which also came with 2-dr H/Ts and 9-passenger wagons. The Fury was the only one to have droptops, and 4-dr H/Ts as well as 4-dr sedans, 2-dr H/Ts, and wagons.
You might find it of interest that Ray Christian took the A/SA class at the '61 NHRA Nationals in a Savoy 2-dr post, beating Bud Faubel's '61 Fury with an E.T of 14.24 and a speed of 98.9 MPH. That also would have beat Eckstrand's 14.51 E.T. and 97.82 speed at the 1960 soiree. Faubel also drove one of the 300F Specials in 1960, but not the fastest.
You might also be interested in knowing that the last time I was in a legal drag race was in 1961 when some dude in a Savoy 2-dr really waxed me -- by several lengths (at least 10, and probably more). But he trailered it in from out of state on his way to the Indy Nats as it had "cheater slicks," some beautifully fabricated exhaust headers, and I think shortened long rams. In any case, he really did a number on me.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | And, according to 1956 D500-1 mythology, that 330 HP monster race car (and employing
1956 tire and engine/transmission technology) was faster than the 1961 A/SA
pure-drag machines.
Edited by d500neil 2015-07-09 6:56 PM
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Location: Indiana |
i've heard that elsewhere also...
'56 *by FAR* is my favorite year as far as "all-encompassing" goes...
sure, there's some other years where i like a particular make/model more, but if i look at the ENTIRE industry as a whole, '56 wins "by several car lengths"... |
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Location: northern germany | Sonoramic60 - 2015-07-09 2:51 PM
Sid --
I really have to disagree about the inline 2X4V carbs being a regular option on the '60 Plymouth or Dodge. Mr. Davis and I have discussed the issue extensively and he very steadfastly maintains there were none that came off any of the assembly lines in the 1960 model year.
Joe
well they were a regular option that is a fact. i have a 1959 or 60 plymouth ad that lists it as an option called, like the 1x4v, golden commando. i do believe the factory records only show how many gc's were ordered and not how they were equipped. the writer of a 1960 plymouth road test article strongly suggests ordering the optional inline 4 instead of the sono for drag strip competition. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | OK, they were optional...
But NONE were built (according to Darrell Davis' extensive car-production research.)
....If anyone can show that one or more of these cars were actually BUILT, let him come forth now, or forever hold his peace.
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Location: northern germany | d500neil - 2015-07-09 7:29 PM
OK, they were optional...
But NONE were built (according to Darrell Davis' extensive car-production research.)
nobody knows and to me it makes no difference if it was factory or dealer installed two days after it left the factory. again, i believe only the number of GC's are listed and NOT how they were equipped. and "build sheets"... i once owned a 60 desoto with a build sheet (found under the carpet) that was wrong but definitely belonged to the car. |
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Location: Indiana |
i can also attest to build sheets not meaning as much as people often think they do...
i know a guy with TWO *different* build sheets for his '57 (Ford), somehow the ONE car made it down the entire assembly line with TWO build sheets...
or somebody did an "oops" and made a second to "match" where the *real* one was inaccurate... |
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Expert
Posts: 1740
Location: Alaska | Doc, to answer your question somewhat, I don,t believe when you were young that you never got into a race with another car, or that you were never curious about how your cars would perform on a long straight stretch of highway. I know you were young once. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Muscle cars and sports stuff like Corvettes and E-Type jags were all the rage, and for
sure, I was all excited by those kind of cars. But my first set of wheels was our old farm
truck, and second was a 60 Buick Invicta convertible, and my sense of taking care of it
(as opposed to stuffing the pedal to the floor to see if I could break something) was way
stronger than "proving it". I also had a pretty strong appreciation for the curb appeal
and "elegance" factor, even in the beginning.
I love the 60's race stuff, and even the 50's racers like Kiekhafer's. But the dedication
to running them (if you race it, you WILL break it) never really pulled my trigger. I just
like driving them as normal cars, and enjoying the go-fast aspect as a spectator. Additionally,
all this bench-racing talk I find wearying. Kinda like these boobs I know who play "fantasy
football".
"If Joe Sasquimotto had only been left handed, he'd have made MVP with the Bruins and
they would have taken the cup"
Really ? I guess I demand a little more reality out of life than speculation and "ifs". There
are 5000 ways to make a car go fast. Speculating on what a car did in 1959 and what it took
to make it do it, as opposed to these 436 other fast cars, and what it took to make them do
what they did .... hey, it's all good fun to see them do it. I wish I could go somewhere and
see some 1963 racing with the real cars and the real drivers and the real atmosphere, but I
am pretty sure I'd be getting more jolly time just looking at all the cars in the parking lot than
I would at what was on the track !!!
Get all these cars in one location with the qualified pit crew and drivers and let's see what
they do. Speculating on statistics ? Nah, .... I'd rather just go for a drive.
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Location: Branson, MO | Doc sez: Speculating on statistics ? Nah, .... I'd rather just go for a drive.
Yeah buddy, that's the way I feel too. I've been through the racing and trailer queen days - drivin' 'em is a whole lot more fun! And at my age I don't have a whole lot of time left so I'm enjoyin' 'em. Fun, fun, fun, and nobody's takin' my DeSoto away.
"It's delightful, it's delovely, it's DeSoto"
Edited by Viper Guy 2015-07-10 1:04 PM
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Location: Indiana |
i was young and stupid...
i grew up in the 90s, not the 50s...
most of my cars were V6's when all my friends were driving four-bangers...
when i did own a four, it was a TURBO four and *stock* turbos were MUCH faster in the 90s then the *stock* turbos nowadays...
so yeah, i "raced" every once in a while - ESPECIALLY to knock the living sh#t out of the Mustang 5.0 crowd that always thought they could 'take' my turbo...
but yeah, "older and wiser", i'm only in my 40s and everybody calls me "grandpa" because i 'crawl' over train tracks and my gas pedal never hits the floor... |
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| Doc --
You were a good boy (and I don't mean that derogratorily) , probably because you lived on a farm. However, I was a city boy (and you know what that entails), so the only reason that I was not a juvenile delinquent was that I was not caught. My old neighborhood in those days was very competitive and the competition had quite a range: who could run the fastest, or who could bike the fastest (or be able to take his bike up a long hill nearby without having to get off and push it), or who could throw the fastest and hardest. Before we knew it, it was, "I can lick you with one hand tied behind my back!" By the time we were in high school it was who had the "slickest chick." So, then the "chick magnet" concept came into play but with the caveat that, "Yeah, it's a sweet looking car, but it's only a six-banger." From the "peeling out" in front of a group of nubile maidens, it was but a short step to the "Stop Light Grand Prix" and another short one to the drag strip.
However, I still find it disconcerting that the one girl I was really trying to impress way back then was when told me only after I had my current Big-Tailed Beast trailered home to sit in our driveway (in 2000) as I triumphantly presented it to our gawking neighbors, she commenced to deflate me with, "I thought it was ugly when it was new and I think it's ugly now" ("JEEZ!!!!!"). She was a Vette girl and the first car she bought after graduation from college was a used doggy "Saddle Tan" '63 droptop with only the 300 HP 327 (at least it had the 4-speed).
Doc, we both have reason to be grateful.
Viper --
As to the concept of trailered cars, I can only think of a few years ago when I took "Old Shake, Rattle, and Roar" (our '65 fuel-injected Vette) up to the Corvette "Glass on the Rockies" show at Breckenridge, I parked it next to a magnificent 427 '67 which rightly deserved the prize it won. However, the devil was still in me when I asked the owner which way he drove it up. When he said, "Oh, no. I brought it in a covered trailer," I had to say, "Really? Just a trailer queen, huh?" That caused him to sputter, but when I started "OSRR" up with her side-mount exhausts kicking up debris, he about had an apoplectic stroke. But "that girl" and I sure enjoyed our top down trip over Hoosier Pass to the Grand Valley and thence over Ute Pass to Colorado Springs. There is nothing like downshifting a Vette Roadster (with the its top down), and which gives a resulting crescendo resounding behind to enter a curve to power out. I could never do it with a Viper, but it's a lot of fun with an old '65 Vette.
Joe
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Location: Indiana | Sonoramic60 - 2015-07-10 4:05 PM
or be able to take his bike up a long hill nearby without having to get off and push it
we used to do that too!
only me and my brother "cheated", we customized our ten-speeds' low gear where you literally had to pedal a full cycle just to go a couple of INCHES |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Joe,
I SO appreciate the delinquent punk and erstwhile racers of the day .... it WAS the culture, it WAS
so cool, and having those around to relate their firsthand stories is at least as good as bad sex ....
Seriously, I always enjoy that stuff, even if I do not take an active role. The closest I ever got was
my X-ram 60 Fireflite coupe, which was a daily driver and the only regular racing I put it through was
to close the gaps on the axxholes in the BMW's who would try to cut me off.
I have always been the "Grampa" driver, coasting down hills, ramping up my speed before I get to
the hill. I saw my cars as fragile and having already "done their time". It was now their time to be
pampered and it was my job to do it.
My motorhead buddy Hal was always trying to get me to build my cars for the strip. He was all about
440's and go-fast. I'd point to my convertible and say "What the hell do you think a 440 is going to do
for that car except suck more gas ?". Slowly, he got the point and together we built some science into
getting the best performance balance of go-fast and fuel economy. Nobody wants a "dog", but nobody
wants a 10 gallons-to-the-mile car either. Finding that sweet spot between the two is where I like to
dwell. The charm of my car is sitting at curbside. Rolling giant white clouds out of the rear wheel tubs
would just be silly. I'll leave that to the modified wheelbase guys and enjoy each for what it was/is.
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i've never really 'liked' the whole "put a 440 in it" crowd, they think EVERYTHING from a Prowler to a Neon should have a 440 in it 
i do find it odd though that the "grandpa types" that LOVE to see a 440 put into EVERYTHING will 'frown upon' "perfomance mods" that bring a four-banger that in stock form would do the 1/4 mile in 16 seconds but after the mods are cutting that in HALF and then some! - with the same exact engine!
i mean, 'back in the day', i heard story after story of how the "car guys" LOVED to *KEEP* their STOCK engine, throw on a better CARB or add FI, reroute the intake and add a PAXTON, all in the name of "performance mods"...
while i *HATE* the Plymouth Neon and Honda Civic crowd and their 3" exhaust pipes, i do have to ask, HOW ARE THEY ANY DIFFERENT THAN THE PAXTON ADD-ON CAR GUYS OF THE 60s?
Hades yeah, i have a great deal of respect and admiration for the one group...
and nothing but disdain for the other group...
but when i am asked "what's the difference", i've yet to be able to provide any coherent reply other than basically the nuts and bolts of it and that is some form of "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"... |
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Posts: 1287
| Doc --
As I said, I was a scoundrel and never did learn. At least you had and have sense.
As to not getting caught, in 1966 I was coming up from Albuquerque to Pueblo, CO, in my '65 Sport Fury (426-S street wedge, 4-speed) and I was just north of Taos a few miles south of the Colorado line when I passed some local on a big, sweeping curve. As I got around him, I saw an old pickup truck (in those days New Mexico was a pickup graveyard -- they all went there to die) parked on the side of the south-bound lane. When I got passed both, I just happened to notice a New Mexico state cop behind the pickup, whom I noticed even more when he turned on his flasher lights, made a U-turn, and came after me. As a law-abiding citizen, I immediately pulled over to let him pass, but he followed me. Being a bit indignant, I was so dumb to jump out of the car to ask him what the matter was. At that point, he pulled a "Barney Fife" with his S&W .38, so I meekly followed his instructions. During the interrogation phase, he asked me why I didn't "slow down and proceed with caution" since he was investigating an accident. My Oscar-Winning" reply: "Officer, I've driven this highway an awful lot and I always see cars parked on the sides. The car I passed was going rather slow, so I went around him. As you can tell by my plates, I'm from Colorado and there we have a "Frima Facie" law which permits us to exceed the posted speed limits if "reasonable and prudent" as if in a passing situation." Then I threw in the kicker which was not the intelligent thing to say: "Officer, if I thought I was doing anything wrong, you never would have caught me." "Boy, ain't you never heard of radio?"
A number of years later, my family and I were going up the same highway a few days before Christmas. The day didn't start out too well as "that girl" flushed BOTH(!) her contacts down the drain, beyond the trap. We were on that same highway, but a bit farther along, and while I was listening to a broadcast of an NFL game which was rather exciting as The Snake just threw a pass to Ken McAfee who fumbled it into the end zone and recovered it for a TD, a Colorado State Trooper pulled me over for speeding -- just 96.4 MPH in a 55 MPH zone about halfway between San Luis and Fort Garland. When he told I would have to go back to the San Luis county jail to pay the fine, I said, "Officer, if I have to go all the way back there, why didn't you stop me sooner?" "Son, I tried."
Joe |
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Location: Parts Unknown | FwdLk56 - 2015-07-12 5:56 AM
i've never really 'liked' the whole "put a 440 in it" crowd, they think EVERYTHING from a
Prowler to a Neon should have a 440 in it
i do find it odd though that the "grandpa types" that LOVE to see a 440 put into EVERYTHING
will 'frown upon' "perfomance mods" that bring a four-banger that in stock form would do the
1/4 mile in 16 seconds but after the mods are cutting that in HALF and then some! - with the
same exact engine!
i mean, 'back in the day', i heard story after story of how the "car guys" LOVED to *KEEP* their
STOCK engine, throw on a better CARB or add FI, reroute the intake and add a PAXTON, all in
the name of "performance mods"... while i *HATE* the Plymouth Neon and Honda Civic crowd
and their 3" exhaust pipes, i do have to ask, HOW ARE THEY ANY DIFFERENT THAN THE PAXTON
ADD-ON CAR GUYS OF THE 60s?
but when i am asked "what's the difference", i've yet to be able to provide any coherent reply
other than basically the nuts and bolts of it and that is some form of "beauty is in the eye of the
beholder"...
===========================================
This is just MY perspective, and it goes far deeper than just cars ...... plastic, to me, equals
cheap and cheesy and basically a lame excuse for something of higher quality.
Coincidentally, or not, our gov't began pushing for lower emissions and greater fuel economy
at the same time plastics technology began making car parts production economically practical,
and (to my eyes), cars instantly went from being interesting, solid metal, things of beauty, to being
satirical mockeries of what had come before, all with the total bullsh!t sales pitch that these were
somehow "better". Well, history has proven what is and is not more worthy for design and nostalgia,
but the spin we who lived through it got was: all that old sh!t is bad, Pintos and Chevettes and all
that Tupperware "goodness" is best. Unless you were a brainless lemming, how could one NOT develop
a heavy sense of contempt for the new stuff ?
From the budding tree hugger movement to the snooty, yet-to-be-named "soccer mom", a guy who
liked old cars was dealing with a whole bunch of ignorant twerps, telling us we were akin to evil for
destroying the earth with billowing clouds of toxic smoke, or polluting the landscape with our hideously
ugly symbols of conspicuous comsumption.
I also see this as a matter of lazy. Anyone with an old car knows that they can be tuned to run quite
cleanly and deliver some pretty respectable fuel economy. So the argument of gas guzzling behemoths
goes totally flat against a guy who pampers his old car, while the legions of idiots scrapped their DeSotos
and bought a gutless 1976 Omega and went on driving it with minimal maintenance and upkeep, assuming
the "new tech" would do all the work of keeping gas usage low and emissions down.
So, it is a matter of contempt for the position that old cars are bad, new (anything) is better, AND let's
not even open up the argument of styling and nostalgia !
To me, it is a matter of "Americana", .... and "Americana" stopped happening about 1970, right about
the time U.S. carmakers quit chasing the dream of leading by example and took to following whatever
might produce the cheapest dividends for their executives. Do I need to draw a line between the corporate
policies and positions of U.S. car makers in 1966 and U.S. carmakers today ?
So, ... to answer the question ... the difference is "Americana". It is plastic instead of steel, it is "bubble"
styling over creative styling, and yes, it is still a matter of the public and paid media telling us our old stuff
is "icky" and how we'd be so better off, morally and ethically, with a Prius.
Technically, speed tech applications are the same in both equations. However, one is a vacuous hole of
visual creativity and character, has absolutely zero "Americana" present, and still comes standard with a
middle finger raised as a matter of self-promotion.
Other than that, I see no differences at all ! |
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Location: Indiana |
i would argue that *MOST* of "Americana" ( http://www.plyrics.com/lyrics/offspring/americana.html ) *IS* the aforereferenced "brainless lemming"...
while things have "improved" since the Great Recession (average age of cars on the road is sitting at just shy of ELEVEN years), think of all the "brainless lemmings" you know that will give every *excuse* in the book to 'rationalize' their VANITY OF VANITIES...
"brainless lemmings" *LOVE* to throw THOUSANDS of dollars at auto loan interest and higher insurance premiums all under the GUISE of "driving something RELIABLE"...
they need to STOP MAKING *EXCUSES*, there is EXTREME "value" and RELIABILITY in driving something 'not so new'...
sometimes it's a real LAUGH RIOT to look at what some of the VANE folks trade in...
yeah, it pretty much started in the 70s, but still VERY MUCH ALIVE still to this day, people trade in HIGH QUALITY cars for something "new" and are totally BLINDED BY VANITY on how the "new" is not much more than a *CHEAP* pile of donkey dung...
but it is *new* and they'll walk around with their nose so high in the air that they can't smell the donkey dung anyway, so i guess it's all good...
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Location: Parts Unknown | "Americana", to this person, is all the things you's see in a street scene from 1915,
be it the barbed wire fence, the Victorian home, the old signs, telephone poles, street
lights, cars, cast iron door-dads.
America kept making "Americana" into the late 60's / early 70's and then gave it up
for cheap plastic import junk and a waning desire to make anything with character.
Remember the "stunning" looks of the World Trade Center towers ? Yeah, those character-
free boxes were the pinnacle achievement of architect Harry Rectangle in his quest to
imitate the shape of a plastic dollar bill standing on end. Compared to just about anything
we built in 1900 or 1935 .... can you say "The Chrysler Building" ? Yeah, ... THAT is what
"Americana" looks like.
What you describe is mindless consumerism. I remember being very puzzled and interested
in the few real oldsters I'd see coming into town in their Model T vintage car/truck back in the
60's and hearing stories out of them about "no need for a new one, this one still works fine"
kind of attitude. I picked up on that very early in life. It would only be a few more years before
people were mindlessly junking their 59 Buicks and desecrating the American road with Pintos
and Datsuns. Two suitcases. One is full of gold bars. The other is full of sh!t. Pick one.
We have chosen the latter. It is "more convenient" and "fashionable". At least that is what
"they" tell us in TV and magazine advertising. Have you seen the new Lexus A suppository
on wheels. And Americans can hardly wait to sign on for $50K just to pretend they are something
special. Not sure what this is besides brainwashed consumerism. It sure ain't "Americana". 
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Location: northern germany | 1960fury - 2015-07-09 7:15 PM
Sonoramic60 - 2015-07-09 2:51 PM
Sid --
I really have to disagree about the inline 2X4V carbs being a regular option on the '60 Plymouth or Dodge. Mr. Davis and I have discussed the issue extensively and he very steadfastly maintains there were none that came off any of the assembly lines in the 1960 model year.
Joe
well they were a regular option that is a fact. i have a 1959 or 60 plymouth ad that lists it as an option called, like the 1x4v, golden commando. i do believe the factory records only show how many gc's were ordered and not how they were equipped. the writer of a 1960 plymouth road test article strongly suggests ordering the optional inline 4 instead of the sono for drag strip competition.
found the ad, not really readable but the 2x4v inline gc is the last in the list:
Edited by 1960fury 2015-07-12 1:54 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | "Advertised availability"
But never actually produced or put into a car.
Everybody happy, now?
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Posts: 1287
| Neil --
It sure sounds kosher to me. If you don't mind, I'll run it past Darrell Davis and find out what his take is on it. It sure sounds like a reasonable way to get rid of some those old 2X4V log manifolds for the 350, 361, and 383 B Series engines sitting around.
Joe
PS, I'm always happy. I'm too dumb to know that I should be sad. |
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Location: northern germany | d500neil - 2015-07-12 2:58 PM
"Advertised availability"
But never actually produced or put into a car.
again, nobody knows. |
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Posts: 1287
| Lads --
It does seem to be a case of poor communication in the Chrysler Corporation. Here's what Darrell Davis Has to say:
Hello Joe:
They were listed in the AMA specs but never built. A few single 4 383's were built and I owned one that I bought from Dick Loehr who was from Warren, OH back in the mid 60's. It was one of the few built. A white Belvedere 2 dr ht. The single 4 cars are noted in my book. No 2 X 4 inline cars were built but were built in 59 Dodges and DeSotos. Today it is nearly impossible to find the correct right side exhaust manifold.
DLD
So it looks as though there was some internal discussion early on and very likely some people got the idea that the inline 383 2X4V setup of the '59 DeSotos and Dodges was going to be an option for the '60 Plymouth. This was communicated to the AMA as a legit spec and the publicity (sales) guys picked it up. With it on the books, no one was going to correct it (if it indeed needed correction) and so some guys modified existing 383 cars to conform with the early quasi-legal specifications.
An interesting situation. To paraphrase a line spoken by Ben Franklin in the play "1776," "Engine options come into this world like bas***d children - half improvised and half compromised."
This has been an enlightening discussion.
Joe |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7395
Location: northern germany | 1960fury - 2015-07-09 7:37 PM
nobody knows and to me it makes no difference if it was factory or dealer installed two days after it left the factory. again, i believe only the number of GC's are listed and NOT how they were equipped. and "build sheets"... i once owned a 60 desoto with a build sheet (found under the carpet) that was wrong but definitely belonged to the car. |
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Posts: 1287
| Sid --
You're quite right. I just find it fascinating to discover how things happened that weren't supposed to. My academic work was in history and I still fancy myself as a dabbler in it so you would think I would realize after all these years that sometimes things ain't really what they are supposed to be.
Another quote, this one George Bernard Shaw's "The Devil's Disciple", when General "Gentleman Johnny" Burgoyne tells his aide, Major Swinton, that they will have to surrender at Saratoga, Swinton asks, "But, Sir, what will history say?" Burgoyne's reply, "History, Sir, will tell lies, as usual."
Joe
PS, After seeing those ads, the light finally dawned on me that this old man remembers them from back in the day. Very good.
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