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D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us
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VAN HELSING
Posted 2015-09-21 8:47 PM (#490249 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia
........

The only words that I can think of at the moment is that I'm simply stunned at hearing this news, it's trying to sink into my mind that the great Neil Vedder D500neil is gone!!!!

I had no idea he was fighting for his life?

My thoughts and condolences to his family.

When I joined up here after I bought my 59 Dodge a few years back, Neil helped me immensely with his knowledge ( most of it via pm messages) and kind of became my Mopar mentor as up to that date I had never owned a Mopar let alone owning one where the only parts source for me was many thousands of miles away ( I'm in Australia).

Neil was always willing to help me out with anything I needed to know or find and I still have a picture in my PM's that Neil sent me of his home office with all his piles of Mopar reference material. I remember commenting back wondering how he ever knew where to start looking!

We would always send each other an E-xmas card each year via PM's...............

I've never travelled overseas but am planning a once-in-a-lifetime trip to the US sometime and a visit to Neil was one part of my trip that was a must for me.

I know the old saying is that " life goes on " but my Mopar life will have a hole in it now that Neil's not around.

Thanks so much D500neil..........

Rest in peace up there...........

........

Edited by VAN HELSING 2015-09-21 8:48 PM
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dodge59
Posted 2015-09-21 11:31 PM (#490269 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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Posts: 569
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I'm so sad to here he is gone . He had so much knowledge and always willing to give it to others. R.I.P Mister Mopar !
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netparts
Posted 2015-09-22 1:49 AM (#490274 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us


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Posts: 109
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Here's a post from Neil just over two years ago regarding the passing of my dad.
"Met up with Gary Grossich, at the Hot August Nights swap meet, when we both were simultaneously attracted to an alluring
(but over-priced and not really needed) used 1958 CRL gold anodized trunk "Dodge" emblem." "Gary's doing OK, now." "But the MoPar world has lost a good friend."

That's all I can say after hearing of Neals passing, the MoPar world has lost a good friend. Neal will be missed for his knowledge, wit and willingness to share both.
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60 Imp
Posted 2015-09-22 2:08 AM (#490276 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: RE: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us


2000500100100
Location: North Australia
If Neil had a God, I hope he had a 1958 Super D500 powered red and white CRL Convertible with a manual gear box waiting for him. Will be missed by me also, been reading his posts since 2001, and had a number of PM conversations regarding Imperials and Dodges.

RIP Old Man.

Steve.
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mogge65
Posted 2015-09-22 5:29 AM (#490283 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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Rest in peace Neil, you will be missed. Thank´s for all kind advices and pointings in "The right directions" . This site will not be the same without you , hope you can look down upon us and our struggles wich will keep on........... Morgan
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antonellomopar
Posted 2015-09-22 12:17 PM (#490312 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us


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Very sad about Neil's passing. I had known him by letter almost 25 years ago...and then enjoyed his posts here on the forum. Great guy , will missi him a lot
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hemidave
Posted 2015-09-22 2:29 PM (#490333 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: RE: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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So sorry to hear of his passing. Every time I looked at a Dodge convertible to purchase, he decoded the data tag for me quickly, so I could make a knowledgeable decision. RIP Neil !
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D500Jim
Posted 2015-09-24 2:50 AM (#490493 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: RE: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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Neil’s wife Norma really appreciates all your comments and sympathy, and the photos that you’ve posted, and asked me to thank you so much.
Also, to post Neil’s orbituary here.

Neil Davis Vedder, III passed away on September 18, 2015 after a courageous battle with brain cancer, and is survived by Norma Vedder, his loving wife of 38 years.  Neil was an active member of the Bishop community and the Lions Club in Bishop.  In March, Neil was awarded the Melvin Jones Scholarship for his years of service to the Lions Club and the Bishop community.  He served as President in 2001 - 2002.

Born on July 24, 1950, Neil grew up in Toledo, Ohio.  He graduated from Miami (Ohio) University in 1972 and enlisted in the United States Navy after graduation.  Neil saw active duty in the Gulf of Tonkin conflict during the Vietnam war and achieved the rank of LT JG USN while serving on the USS Tolovana.    He received  the National Defense Medal, Vietnam Service Medal, Vietnam Campaign Medal, and the Navy’s Meritorious Unit Commendation.

Neil started his career in the insurance business in 1975, following in his father’s footsteps.  In the same year, he met Norma Tejada in Los Angeles.  They were married in 1976.  Neil and Norma moved to Bishop in 1977.  He started Eastern Sierra Adjustment Services in 1985 and retired from his business in 2014.

Neil was a noted expert on the 1957-1958 Dodge Custom Royal.  He enjoyed driving his own Custom Royal in the countryside around Bishop, as well as attending vintage car shows.

Neil is also survived by his sister Sharyl (George) Kaitsa (Powell, OH), sister-in-law Marta Tejada (Honduras), uncle Gibson Hart (Olathe, KS), cousin John (Jennifer) Hart (Overland Park, KS), nephews Corey (Nicole) Urbanski, their daughter Avery, Ryan (Kimmy) Hart, Alec (Sarah) Hart, Aaron Hart, Jorge Lopez and Emerson Lopez.

He was preceded in death by his parents Neal and Suzanne Vedder and his aunt Louise Hart.

A private service is planned by the family.

In lieu of flowers, friends may donate to the Eastern Sierra Breast Cancer Alliance or to their favorite charity.





(IMG_5959.jpg)



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Attachments IMG_5959.jpg (328KB - 150 downloads)
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Swept57
Posted 2015-09-24 12:15 PM (#490527 - in reply to #490493)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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Thanks for posting this Jim. I had been searching online but couldn't find it. I think Neil would take exception to the "battle" term but I understand that is the common description.
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Fintail and Son
Posted 2015-09-24 2:18 PM (#490540 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us


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RIP, Neil. I'm shocked and stunned at your passing.

You could also recite letter and verse on the '56 Dodge, and without you I would have never known what I had in my '56 convertible. You've shined your light upon so many of us. And now The Lord is shining His Light on you.---Fred
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Finsinthemirror
Posted 2015-09-26 1:43 AM (#490654 - in reply to #490540)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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Posts: 944
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I'm honored to call Neil a friend. We lost a consummate enthusiast and a wealth of information and experience. Our hobby takes a big hit today. Thanks for everything buddy! R.I.P. Neil, his family is in my thoughts.
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StillOutThere
Posted 2015-09-26 9:01 AM (#490664 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



20005001001001002525
Location: Under the X in Texas
R.I.P. Neil.
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bad58mike
Posted 2015-09-28 1:11 AM (#490795 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: RE: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



Elite Veteran

Posts: 1073
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Location: Southern California
sad news, rest in peace Neil.
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hemidenis
Posted 2015-09-28 11:08 AM (#490826 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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Man, I just can believe it, Neil was always helpful and was a trustful expert on Dodges. He also helped me a lot, what a sad news, why in the wold this happened. I just don't know what to said I have a huge lump in my throat...
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B/G 61
Posted 2015-09-28 10:43 PM (#490906 - in reply to #490826)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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Wow...
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Joe Mac
Posted 2015-09-30 11:04 PM (#491068 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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Neil and I shared a lot of messages on Regal Lancers; one of Neil's favorite subjects. He shared many very rare pieces of documentation that have helped in my restoration. I felt great when I could inform him on a subject; it's rare that you knew something Neil didn't. I've been busting my butt trying to get the Regal Lancer done and was looking forward to sharing that unveiling with him. Now I'll never get that pleasure. Life's too short. All that's left to say is: Teach the angels how to properly decode a data plate Neil!
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JT Vincent
Posted 2015-10-01 12:15 AM (#491072 - in reply to #491068)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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He was brave and scientific about his life and death. He was a strong, great guy. Beyond that, he was a human, of the highest sort.
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R41HP
Posted 2015-10-02 2:17 AM (#491157 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us


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"if you want meet somebody, you better meet them" my wife just said. Neil and I bantered only briefly on this forum, but I read many of his posts and I appreciated his attitude towards these old cars. I'm not into the exact segment he was into, but I really had hoped to meet him in person someday.

Perhaps we need to establish the "Forward Look Lifestyle Forum" in his honor.

Best Regards,
Andy Mikonis
Chicago USA
Chrysler 300 Club International print publications editor
1961 Chrysler owner since 1983

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sparky7
Posted 2015-10-02 10:13 AM (#491178 - in reply to #491157)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us


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Just got this terrible news. Only through an exchange of PMs with Neil, did I work up the confidence to buy my car. I want to second what Roger said:

"The best way to honor him is to be as helpful to all as he was."

Sparky
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2015-10-02 12:54 PM (#491194 - in reply to #491178)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us


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I, too, was in touch with Neil throughout his treatment. Here is an excerpt from the last email I got from him on Aug 10. I think it demonstrates his character quite well!

Here is my attempt to post this --- I'm not very good at this stuff.

Greg



(image.jpg)



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toddst
Posted 2015-10-02 8:33 PM (#491223 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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Location: Some Island called Prince Edward
So sad. Any idea what will become of Neil's car and all his FL documentation? Makes one wish there was a FL museum somewhere.
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cbrayinga
Posted 2015-10-03 1:17 AM (#491243 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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Location: Tallapoosa, GA

RIP, Neil. You will be very very missed.
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Windsor59
Posted 2015-10-03 4:08 AM (#491253 - in reply to #491243)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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Saw it only now the sad. Have read through all the posts, many fine words and stories about you.
Thank you for everything you've learned about these Forward Look cars through the years.
I never meet you, but you were a friend of the FL forum.
Remember when you contacted me through email that you had crossed the dealer cards in 59 Chrysler and thought that I would get the most out of these. What joy I felt.
We have lost a good friend. A wife lost a fine man.
R.I.P Neil Vedder.

Edited by Windsor59 2015-10-03 4:13 AM
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2015-10-03 10:52 PM (#491327 - in reply to #491223)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us


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toddst - 2015-10-02 8:33 PM

So sad. Any idea what will become of Neil's car and all his FL documentation? Makes one wish there was a FL museum somewhere.


Neil and I had a couple long telephone conversations when he was in the treatment centre in Reno. He wanted to discuss a few points about work we had done together years ago. I got the impression that he wanted to donate, sell or otherwise distribute his vast library of notes to others. In due course we will likely hear more.

Greg
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Chrycoman
Posted 2015-10-04 2:26 AM (#491339 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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A major loss for us all. Always admired Neil for his enthusiasm and knowledge of Forward Look Dodges. Lost a great friend.

My condolences to his wife, family and friends.
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jimntempe
Posted 2015-10-04 9:28 PM (#491409 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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One more reminder that we need to count our blessings from time to time.
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fintastic57
Posted 2015-10-07 7:24 AM (#491636 - in reply to #491409)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us


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Location: Spencerport, New York
Hard to believe he is gone. I was fortunate to meet him in Tulsa and enjoyed the time spent in the hotel bar listening to him profess on Forwardlook subjects. A great loss because he was truly the "Bard of Knowledge" when it came to 50's Dodges. R.I.P. Neil, you will be missed.

Edited by fintastic57 2015-10-07 7:26 AM
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Powerflite
Posted 2015-10-10 3:18 PM (#491906 - in reply to #491409)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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RIP Neil. I miss him already. He was always there to answer the most esoteric questions - and always strict to keep things real with data to back up his statements.
His soul will continue on in Horrie. I hope that whoever eventually gets it will be someone close to him.

Edited by Powerflite 2015-10-10 3:19 PM
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mopardave
Posted 2015-10-11 11:16 AM (#491954 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: RE: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us


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Just learned today of Neil's passing. I am so sorry for his family and for us, his on-line friends. Happy to know that he was a veteran and had served his country. He was a wealth of information and I often wondered if he had somehow got hold of all the 50s and 60s Chrysler archives. I recall that once we were "arguing" about how the Petty race team received their cars from Chrysler and Neil blew me away by producing a signed delivery ticket from Chrysler=Plymouth to the Pettys. RIP d500Neil.
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oldwood
Posted 2015-10-11 1:57 PM (#491968 - in reply to #491954)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us


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I bought someNOS parts from Neil at a great price. We talked on the phone a couple of times when He found out I had bought a '59 D500. His knowledge WILL be missed. The earlier photo shows how quickly we ALL are nearing our remaining years. I can't take back the woulda, coulda shoulda's of life. I need to see the beauty of what GOD has done for me. RIP Neil but not forgotten.
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D500Jim
Posted 2015-10-13 2:29 AM (#492146 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: RE: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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Neil's wife lets us know she keeps reading the Forwardlook website and is very moved by all the postings.
Neil's Celebration of Life will be this Sunday, October 18th.

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300XMAN
Posted 2015-10-13 8:13 AM (#492170 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us


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I first became aware of Neil through his early 1990s Mopar Collector's Guide ads seeking information on 1953-61 Dodges. I later found out that he had borrowed the Dodge records of disposition from Carl Kiekhaefer's secretary Rose Smiljanic, so I wrote to Neil asking if he would share some of his findings. He wrote back in 1995 stating that he was working on a comprehensive book about 1953-61 Dodges and was unable to share any information. Eventually, I contacted Rose directly and borrowed both the Chrysler and Dodge records of disposition. It was a good thing that I did so because Rose was compelled to return the files she had in her possession to Brunswick. They are now lost in the bowels of Plant 10, whereabouts unknown. In recent years, Neil and I were emailing back and forth about the Dodges of Carl Kiekhaefer. Not only Carl's race cars, but his D501 with engine #KD501-1001 and a 1958 Custom Royal Regal Lancer that was factory-built with a prototype "M" Series 383 Super D500 V8. One question that not even the Kiekhaefer archives could answer was how many D500-1 dual quad intakes did Kiekhaefer Corporation cast and deliver to Dodge Division in 1956. Neil kept after me for supporting documentation, but there was nothing conclusive in the files. We are still left with guesstimates as to how many were cast and delivered.
Neil's passion and enthusiasm for everything Dodge-related was contagious. It was an honor and a pleasure to have known him. He enriched all of our lives.
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2015-10-14 12:16 AM (#492236 - in reply to #492146)
Subject: RE: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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Location: Parts Unknown
Neil often wrote to me when he was "at war" with a couple of the purist haters,
looking for support. Ironically, the same guys were emailing me, looking for angles
to work on Neil !

I never could understand it, as Neil was more than open about his "upgrades" and
modifications to his own car that any true purist would shun, and pointed this out to
them. I'd suggest to Neil that he scale back the tone and stick to the data. The two
sides seemed incorrigible.

When I was dialing in the interior for my Plaza (he took a strong interest in this unusual
restoration of a super plain jane car), I asked for reference/s on carpet. Neil responded
with a series of photos taken of a pristine original carpet set he extracted from a cream
puff car, documenting exactly how the seams were cut and sewn.

He was a great friend of historical detail and documentation. I feel a vacuous loss for
all the questions and discussion I will need to have in the future and knowing my buddy
of minute detail will not be there to kick all this around with.
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Peter Panov
Posted 2015-10-14 8:10 AM (#492251 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us


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I was so shocked to learn this today. I am new in the forum but I know Neil is among the most educated people when we talk about Forward look cars. We really lost a great friend and a real fan of the cars we like. We can only thank God that we all were lucky to know Neil and to remeber the time when he was with us sharing knowledge and helping us preserving and restoring our favorite cars. Rest in peace

Edited by Peter Panov 2015-10-14 8:14 AM
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Peter Panov
Posted 2015-10-14 8:12 AM (#492252 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us


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Posts: 183
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I was so shocked to learn this today. I am new in the forum but I know Neil is among the most educated people when we talk about Forward look cars. We really lost a great friend and a real fan of the cars we like. We can only thank God that we all were lucky to know Neil and to remeber the time when he was with us sharing knowledge and helping us preserving and restoring our favorite cars. Rest in peace Neil!
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mopardave
Posted 2015-10-14 5:07 PM (#492275 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: RE: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us


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Posts: 642
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Location: NC
Mrs. Vedder, we are all so sorry for your loss. Neil was certainly a well respected and admired man among all of us MOPAR folks. Needless to say but there is and will continue to be a void here on the FL Forums as we will miss him daily. I am certain that many of us would have liked to have known him personally. You have our heartfelt love and sympathy and we are so sorry for your tragic loss.
.
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sconut1
Posted 2015-10-17 11:58 PM (#492492 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us


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Location: Edmonton, Alberta
I was surprised to hear that Neil passed. I liked his presence on the form and I liked his attention to detail and his passion for "doing things right". Neil has helped me out with a few issues with my recent engine swap project and provided even some travel advice to me for a trip to California when I went to purchase the engine. I will most certainly miss him here on the forum. My sincere condolences to his wife and family.
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1961plymouthfury
Posted 2015-10-21 7:50 PM (#492853 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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I never knew he was sick RIP Neil .
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mogge65
Posted 2015-10-25 4:52 PM (#493160 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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Autum is here, i ´ve logged on to this site for seaching info in my threads and here and there you pop up Neil My stereo plays those old Doo wop tunes... I´ve never met you in person but my 6th sence tells me that you would enjoy this too, problem is that i can´t ask you anything more, nobody here on earth can . Guess we meet someday in the big Forwardook sky. My thougts goes to Norma , hope she has the support she needs . all we others who still walk this planet just have to make it without you . R.I.P Neil Vedder
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springsweptwing
Posted 2015-11-01 9:28 PM (#493894 - in reply to #493160)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



Elite Veteran

Posts: 958
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Location: Blackpool, United Kingdom.
Sad news, he will be greatly missed, rest in peace Neil.
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55coronet440
Posted 2015-11-09 12:46 AM (#494630 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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I just found out about Neil's passing on another forum, and saw he was a veteran. Our church just this morning honored the veterans, and I am privileged to be among them. We also honored all of the fallen men and women who gave the ultimate sacrifice for our freedom. Mrs. Vedder, I too offer my condolences for your personal loss, and the loss his extended family has suffered. God bless you!
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61forfun
Posted 2015-11-09 11:42 PM (#494743 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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Oh no, terrible news and loss for the hobby and more importantly his friends and family. Very nice man. I only had the privilege of talking to via this forum and few private messages regarding my car. Very sincere, warm-hearted person, with an insatiable need to help you get your car right, and appreciative of anyone taking interest in preservation of his passion (these old Mopars). RIP sir!
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Ray Bell
Posted 2015-11-17 6:14 PM (#495472 - in reply to #494743)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia
Another to come to the thread too late...

I had a lot of contact with Neil about ten years ago when I bought an 8¾ 'pumpkin' from him. When we were making the arrangements
he explained that his wife had regular visits to an oncologist in Santa Monica, so he was dealing with problems she had at that time.

I know this Gliobastoma Multiforme thing too, it took my youngest brother from us just over seven years ago. Like Neil, he had a large
slab of it removed, but was told it would get him as it just doesn't go away. A bad one.

I know full well all the expressions of how Neil will be missed by forum members - and other FL owners - are just too true, he always
gave of his knowledge here even if sometimes he rubbed some up the wrong way.

My condolences to his wife. I also know what it's like to lose your life partner to that insidious corruption to life, cancer. I have also
seen bravery in my life partner's face as she accepted her lot. It's a terrible thing to live through, a devastation others cannot
compare to anything they've known.

I have to be honest and say that he's not been on any of my lists of people to visit while in America, though I never planned to go
anywhere near Bishop and some years have passed. But it's also true that many people I have visited while there (Paul Hoffmeyer,
Michael Argetsinger, Samuel Argetsinger and David Blair among them) have subsequently passed on and Neil doing so would only
have made me feel worse about visiting people there.

Most of us here are, of course, at the wrong end of our life for this kind of thing. We get used to it, we may even become dulled
out to it. But that doesn't alter the fact that this after-the-fact appreciation of someone who has passed on helps us to better
appreciate who and what they were and how important life is to us all.
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ruchaven
Posted 2015-11-22 10:13 AM (#495854 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us


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Location: York County, PA
I did not have the privilege of knowing Neil but I did read his many posts. If you want to meet more of your pears on the Forward Look, come to Carlisle.
If Big M can come from California, others can come. It's our biggest gathering and the best place to meet each other.
R.I.P. Neil and may GOD bless you and yours.


Edited by ruchaven 2015-11-22 10:15 AM
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tailfins
Posted 2015-11-28 5:59 PM (#496389 - in reply to #490067)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us


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I had the pleasure of many email interactions and a few phone calls with Neil over the years. He was exceedingly generous with his time and knowledge..never expected anything in return.
He was very open in discussing his medical problems with me.
Maybe the FL site could establish an award in his name for the most helpful volunteer experts on the site?

Charlie Marshall
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chrysler300c
Posted 2016-02-23 9:23 AM (#504944 - in reply to #496389)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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I have had some medical problem over the past 6 months or so and was not aware of his illness or passing until this week. I met and enjoyed visiting with him in Tulsa in 2007. I too remember sharing the moonshine in the overhead garage at the hotel in Tulsa. RIP my friend!

George
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MOPAR-TO-YA
Posted 2016-02-24 12:32 AM (#505010 - in reply to #504944)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us


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George, good to have you post on the FL. I was wondering about you................Hope all is healed now..........................Steve..............MO
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1961plymouthfury
Posted 2016-03-13 12:24 AM (#506650 - in reply to #505010)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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How about having a car show but strictly for forward look mopars and dedicate it to Neil.
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D500Jim
Posted 2016-03-13 4:48 AM (#506659 - in reply to #506650)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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1961plymouthfury - 2016-03-13 6:24 AM How about having a car show but strictly for forward look mopars and dedicate it to Neil.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

If it would be somewhere 7 - 29 May, I will be there too, for sure.

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Powerflite
Posted 2016-03-13 11:55 AM (#506680 - in reply to #506659)
Subject: Re: D500Neil Neil Vedder has left us



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It would be neat to hold one in Bishop, CA but maybe do another one in the East somewhere so everyone can participate.
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