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Expert
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Location: McComb, Mississippi | The 413 on my 1963 imperial blew a freeze plug. Luckily, it was just idling. I'm going to take this opportunity to do a few things. I'm going to get the steering box rebuilt and the engine rebuilt or freshened up. The engine has around 125k on the clock. I want to see what you all think of my plans and maybe give me some tips as well. First off, I'm hoping I can get by with just a rehone, New rings, bearings, timing set, gaskets,cam, and valve stem seals. The distributor is a refurbished points type and the carb is the edelbrock performer carb 600cfm with electric choke. I'm thinking of getting a high volume oil pump. I'm also debatibg whether or not I should get the heads reworked with new guides and hardened seats. What do you all think of this? I'm plan on driving this car regularly and plan on using synthetic oil after break In. Does this sound like a solid plan? Thoughts and opinions are needed.
Edited by plymouth 2015-11-15 12:31 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 360
| If you are going to have the engine out and torn down I would certainly recommend doing the seats. If a hone is all that is needed then new rings and new bearings for the mains, pistons, and cam. New gaskets, I would go the head studs route also and have the shop doing the hone use torqueplates with the studs installed. It can get really pricey real quick from there. Normal wear and tear items should all be in consideration for replacement. It just depends on your budget but for sure bearings and rings should be on top of the list as well as a full gasket replacement. |
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Expert
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Location: NorCal | plymouth - 2015-11-15 9:28 AM
I'm thinking of getting a high volume oil pump. I'm also debatibg whether or not I should get the heads reworked with new guides and hardened seats.
Unless your bearing clearances are on the wide side, you'd be better off with a standard volume pump. Definitely do the heads, you won't be sorry. |
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Expert
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | I had a standard oil pump in the 413 in my 64 Dodge. It would not pump oil until the engine actually started. In fact when the motor was built and the standard pump installed, the rebuilders turned the engine over quite a while before starting it, one rebuilder even said to the other, I think we have a bad oil pump, other guy says, oil pressure will come up soon as we start the engine, and it did.
Butttttt, but a few months after that, the cam went flat, they replaced it under warranty, but every time I cranked up the car, no oil pressure until the engine fired. After a few years of this, if the car sat a long time without running,. (several weeks), then when the engine started, some bad sounds would appear until the oil pressure came up. Fearing this was gonna destroy the bottom end of the engine, I put in a high volume pump, and I've never heard any bad sounds out of the engine since,soooooo No way would I run a rebuilt engine with a standard oil pump, if it doesn't show oil pressure when just cranking it, then Junk the oil pump!!!!!!!
Gary |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: northern germany | changing to a hv/hp oil pump is always the first thing that i do. it noticeable shortens the time the engine needs to build up oil pressure during a cold start. in fact, i have the habit to crank the engine until oil pressure is there, sometimes the stock pump can't even build up enough oil pressure during cranking to shut off the oil warning light. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 888
Location: Peoples Republic of Oregon | ...how many millions of B&RB engines did MaMopar send out the door with 'standard' oil pumps? The Hi-Vol pump is a racers part they use to make up for sloppy bearing clearances. A high vol pump also puts additional stress/strain on the drive shaft.
If you want a little more pressure put a washer behind the spring but stay conservative...you do not need a 100lbs... |
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Expert
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Well, I've had the 440 engine in the 59 Dodge vert for 5 years or so now. It has a high volume pump and runs about 70 lbs when cold and 50-60 when fully warmed up. Not had a single leak or any type of problem, (Other than the old milky colored tubing that went to the original oil pressure gauge), it could not stand the pressure, so I just added a digital oil gauge and no oil enters the gauge area of the car, (external sensor and just wires go to the gauge).
Both Dodges, will show oil pressure when cranking, and like 1960 Fury, if the engines have not been started in a couple weeks, I roll them over till I see oil pressure, and then fire them, I think that's a lot easier on everything. Now its true that a lotta mopars got along just fine with stock oil pumps, but when you spend a lotta money rebuilding one, why not protect it as best you can?, I'm sure, had I not replaced the oil pump in the 64 Dodge, I would, at the very least, be replacing bearings, so at least in this case, I've save a lotta money and taken better care of the engine due to the high volume pump.
As they say, "Been There, Done That", and I really was there!!
Gary |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: northern germany | wayfarer - 2015-11-16 7:06 PM
...how many millions of B&RB engines did MaMopar send out the door with 'standard' oil pumps? The Hi-Vol pump is a racers part they use to make up for sloppy bearing clearances. A high vol pump also puts additional stress/strain on the drive shaft.
If you want a little more pressure put a washer behind the spring but stay conservative...you do not need a 100lbs...
yes, thats why you need a hardened drive shaft, no problem. most engine wear occurs during cold starts when the engine runs without oil pressure. the bigger oil pumps build up pressure allot faster and therefore reduce wear.
again, the standard oil pumps can't sometimes even supply enough pressure during cranking. i've been running the big oil pump for about 26 years and over 170k miles engine (over 330+k miles engine) the engine still runs like new. i'm pretty sure it wouldn't without the big oil pump. |
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Expert
Posts: 3777
Location: NorCal |
This is why anecdotal experience has limited value. My standard volume pumped B/RB will show pressure immediately while still on the starter or shortly thereafter, if the pressure buildup is delayed blame the filter not the pump.
The use of HV pumps on engines with tight clearances merely turns the excess volume into excessive pressure and this strains the pump drive and wastes horsepower. 80 psi when cold and 60 psi going down the road serves no purpose. |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: northern germany | all cars i put the big oil pump in used less time to build up pressure. its only more noticeable with bigger bearing clearances. less time running without oil pressure=less engine wear. tight bearing clearances or not.
again, i have the habit to crank the engine until oil pressure is present. i never let it start without oil pressure. almost impossible with a stock pump in cold weather, new filter or not.
the mopar performance book recommends the big oil pump for every engine that sees rpm above 5500.
Edited by 1960fury 2015-11-17 3:32 PM
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Expert
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Location: NorCal |
Oh? Which book is that? The latest Mopar Performance big block engine book says that any pump that will maintain 10 psi per 1000 rpm is suitable. (Page 203)
How quickly the system pressurizes is mostly a function of the check valve in the filter, if the check valve is functioning correctly the pressure will build with the first revolution of the pump, standard or HV. |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: northern germany | it was an older book. anyway, a pump that delivers a larger volume fills/pressurizes the oil passages faster. simple physic.
wear does not happen over night. if you are doing, lets say, 350 cold starts a year and the bigger pump cuts the time of running without oil pressure only 0,5 sec (my experience is, it is more than that) you kept your engine from running almost 3 minutes without oil pressure.
what type of magic filter are you using? your engine must be the only big block on planet earth that gets full oil pressure "with the first revolution of the pump" during a cold start. 
i ask the fl members to crank their cold big blocks without starting it. i wonder how many get IMMEDIATELY oil pressure.
again, its the cold starts that cause most of the engine wear. if you would crank an engine until oil pressure is present, like i do, you would understand the benefit of the big pump.
Edited by 1960fury 2015-11-18 7:02 PM
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | I think you are spitting into the Wind, (IE wasting your time) with 57 chizler.
I gave up, We are happy with our oil pumps, and like I said , not a peep outta the 413 since
I installed the High capacity pump.
If I ever rebuild the 392 Hemi in my 58 Chrysler Convertible,
It will get the better pump,
You and I are sold on these pumps, that's all that counts to me, (at Least).
I'm too old to get any satisfaction from winning
any arguments~~~~~~~especially ones that are as "Slippery" as this one!!!!
Gary |
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Location: NorCal | 1960fury - 2015-11-18 12:25 PM
what type of magic filter are you using? your engine must be the only big block on planet earth that gets full oil pressure "with the first revolution of the pump" during a cold start.
You toss around the word physics but you obviously don't have a grasp of it and I never said "full pressure". 5 psi of an uncompressible liquid will move enough volume to adequately lube the parts you so cherish. Remember, the factory idiot light sender operates in the 5-7 psi range so, even at idle, 5 psi is adequate and the starter speed is even lower.
Both the suction and pressure block passages of the BB are above the level of the pump, this means the pump has a "head" which keeps the rotors primed so the first revolution of the rotors of a fixed-displacement pump moves a specific amount of oil. Since the oil pressure takeoff is on the opposite end of the block from the pump, the pressure buildup won't show immediately, but it's there Maintaining the prime of the pump is the job of the filter check valve, cheap or used-up filters won't maintain the prime thus the check valve plays an important role in startup pressure.
I'll repeat what I said earlier, anecdotal experience comparing HV pumps to standard volume pumps is worthless without actual comparison in situ. If you have a worn out pump and replace it with a HV how do you know that a standard pump wouldn't have worked just as well? And, if you routinely install a HV pump at every overhaul, how do you know the standard pump wouldn't work as well.
It seems that bragging about oil pressure is right up there with golf scores and penis length but high pressure isn't always as desirable as the braggers make it out to be.
Edited by 57chizler 2015-11-19 2:10 PM
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Location: northern germany | 57chizler - 2015-11-19 2:07 PM 1960fury - 2015-11-18 12:25 PM
what type of magic filter are you using? your engine must be the only big block on planet earth that gets full oil pressure "with the first revolution of the pump" during a cold start. You toss around the word physics but you obviously don't have a grasp of it and I never said "full pressure". 5 psi of an uncompressible liquid will move enough volume to adequately lube the parts you so cherish. Remember, the factory idiot light sender operates in the 5-7 psi range so, even at idle, 5 psi is adequate and the starter speed is even lower. Both the suction and pressure block passages of the BB are above the level of the pump, this means the pump has a "head" which keeps the rotors primed so the first revolution of the rotors of a fixed-displacement pump moves a specific amount of oil. Since the oil pressure takeoff is on the opposite end of the block from the pump, the pressure buildup won't show immediately, but it's there Maintaining the prime of the pump is the job of the filter check valve, cheap or used-up filters won't maintain the prime thus the check valve plays an important role in startup pressure. I'll repeat what I said earlier, anecdotal experience comparing HV pumps to standard volume pumps is worthless without actual comparison in situ. If you have a worn out pump and replace it with a HV how do you know that a standard pump wouldn't have worked just as well? And, if you routinely install a HV pump at every overhaul, how do you know the standard pump wouldn't work as well. It seems that bragging about oil pressure is right up there with golf scores and penis length but high pressure isn't always as desirable as the braggers make it out to be.
the FACT remains, you rocket scientist, that a pump that delivers a higher volume pressurizes the oil passages faster and absolutely no one gets oil pressure during a cold start "at the first revolution at the pump". i checked that before with a pressure gauge. if the engine sits for a couple of days, it takes several revolution with an electric drill with a high quality filter. if the gauge needle does not move, there is not sufficient pressure at the bearings, regardless where the pressure takeoff is.
you obviously never did cold start your car in cold weather.
the stock pumps i replaced were up to specs, yet they didn't build up pressure as fast as the hv oil pump. fact.
during a cold start an engine runs without sufficient oil pressure for a short time. well known phenomena. thats how most of the bearing wear occurs. every engineer knows that. thats why PRE lubing systems exist and thats one of the reasons why synthetic oils reduce wear.
here is what YOU wrote:
"My standard volume pumped B/RB will show pressure immediately while still on the starter or shortly thereafter"
so your (not so) magic filter and stock pump delivers pressure shortly THEREAFTER (this means RUNNING) not during cranking. so your engine runs without oil pressure. even if its only 0,1 seconds, it adds up and this is how engines wear.
so this shows you have no clue and you do not even realize that most of the engine wear occurs during cold starts and "shortly thereafter" is a long time for a running engine without oil pressure. again, the FACT remains hv oil pumps build up pressure faster, which prolongs engine live. really not difficult to understand.
Edited by 1960fury 2015-11-19 7:56 PM
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Location: NorCal | 1960fury - 2015-11-19 2:59 PM
even if its only 0,1 seconds, it adds up and this is how engines wear.
Amazing, the lengths one will go to to rationalize poor decisions. |
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Expert
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Location: McComb, Mississippi | Okay here's the deal. Engine has good compression and plenty of power. I am thinking of just doing a bit of cleaning up and replace timing set, any questionable gaskets, oil pump, and intermediate shaft. Upon inspection of the rocker shaft assembly, I'm seeing a possible problem. All rocker arms are evenly worn, except for one. There's a little bit more erosion on one where it contacts the valve. Is this something I should replace? Should I even worry about it? Like I said, the engine runs strong. |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: northern germany | these are like 6 bucks. i'd replace it although i don't think its a problem. once had 60 383 with a left hand rocker confused with a right hand rocker (installed at the factory) ran with no problems that way (180+ k miles) and was still running perfectly. |
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Expert
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Location: McComb, Mississippi | Ok thanks. Its on the passenger side. Would this be considered left or right? |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7400
Location: northern germany | no. there are "left" and "right" ones both sides. the "right" ones are marked iirc. |
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Posts: 2264
Location: McComb, Mississippi | 1960fury - 2015-11-23 6:15 PM
no. there are "left" and "right" ones both sides. the "right" ones are marked iirc.
Thank you |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 888
Location: Peoples Republic of Oregon | 1959Dodge - 2015-11-19 4:42 AM
If I ever rebuild the 392 Hemi in my 58 Chrysler Convertible,
It will get the better pump,
Gary
And which pump will that be? There is NO high-volume pump made for the EarlyHemi engines.
Oh, you'll use one of those whiz-bang adapters and a HV-72 340 pump huh.
If you can trust and believe Melling, the stock 392 pump flows virtually the same volume as the HV-72
and actually bolts on.
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Expert
Posts: 2244
Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | well, strangely enough the Chrysler has xlnt oil pressure, even when hot and engine at idle.
It also will show pressure on the gauge whilst cranking it, so I think in this case, I will just leave it alone.
I have the 8x11 58 Chrysler manual, I will have to see if the Hemi engine came "stock" with a
hi volume oil pump.
It runs very well, did 2 compression tests, all cylinders close to the same and good compression, but
for some "strange reason", the engine does have too much blow by.
I'm still debating whether to rebuild it or not.
Gary |
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Location: North Australia | I have a 1960 413 I rebuilt. Watch out for the new timing gear. I purchased 2 sets, 1st set got destroyed, both cam sprockets hit the block when rotating. easy to fix, but easy to miss if not looking for it. I machined the back of the new sprocket to get clearance. You could also modify the block casting if you find it prior to final assembly. Also be aware there is an early and late RB rear main seal kit, not sure what your 63 will be.
Also think about your inlet pan gasket selection carefully. You can get them with the heat crossover blocked off.
Be extra cautious installing the convex freeze plugs. There is plenty of info on here regarding this! I have a theory in a thread I wrote regarding the plugs blowing out (not rusting through). Regardless, careful installation required with these plugs.
Go for the HV oil pump I recon, my own engine (with a melling HV pump) has perfect oil pressure and primes up real fast, usually on the starter.
Steve. |
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413 freshening up
